IND 76th Street Station?!?!?

[Far Rock Depot]

Yes we know all of that, but what does this have to do with the 76th Street station?

 

I believe that EE is trying to show that A 1948 map never showed the 76th St station and at the same time, showed then future stations.

 

The point I was trying to make is that multiple 1948 maps were printed. 2 in particular were days apart from each other. And IF there was a cover-up, The one showing 76th St wont be found openly online!!!! Especially on nycsubway.org. DO you think the guy who found the old Atlantic Ave tunnel found it THAT easy?

 

Ultimately, what makes 76th St such a mystery is the following things:

 

There are clues to its existance: Track maps and plans, Unusual walls at tunnel ends, signals facing those walls, Tower boards covering up the line, etc.

 

We have known Stations/shells/tunnels that are openly admitted to that were never completed: S 4th ST, Utica Ave Over the A/C, 2nd Ave on the F, Archer Ave's upper level, Roosevelt AVe terminal, etc. But 76th ST is so heavily denied that it makes us wonder whats the story? Whats the Truth. Its our "X-Files". one will have to look deeper that just online. Libraries with historical records, newspapers, archives, Whats in NYCT's "historical vault", finding a LEGAL way to explore whats beyond those tunnel walls. I do have a theory about 76th ST, but it still doesnt answer the question, "Why the cover-up?"

[INDman]

The map is "proof" that conflicts all denial of any plans for 76th St at least. The idea of it and the "Urban Legends" that come from it makes this discussion fun. Because what IF its true? I didnt take it too seriously. IF you read My post thoroughly, I began the story with the word "supposedly". You might want to look that word up. Im not one to 'foam'. But seriously, its enough to want to find out more. Look at the old Atlantic ave tunnel that an individual dug out himself? urban legend has it that behind a concrete wall is an old steam train behind it. yeah that tunnel has been proved there NOW, but i bet back it the days, its was another "76th St". What made me think about the possibility is that if the station shell was made by non-union labor, logically, having it in service will be a legal liability. And im not sure if theres a stature of limitations in a case like that. Open up your mind a little. It doesnt hurt to pass on the urban legend to see that maybe in the future, someone wil be able to find out the answers. Is it there? Was it completed? Was it in service? Was, and is there still, a conspiracy to deny its existence? DOnt be too quick to shoot down everything. The map shows proof that its not all just a story. Its proof of the possibility. To say it means nothing is closed minded. And if a closed mind truly holds any weight, that Atlantic Ave tunnel would've never been found.

 

Now for sake of debate, what proof do you have that it never saw service or even existed?

 

 

 

Where did I every say that there were never plans for this station? I know there were plans, I've been to Euclid Av Tower and I have seen the model board, I've seen the signal schematics, and on and on, probably more them you have ever seen. Also, where did I say i have proof that the station does not exist? I never said that, in fact I know certain things about that area that most people don't know.

 

All I was saying is that the map doesn't mean that a station was built. It only shows that the area would look like if it was completed and used. It may look like that, just with the station being filled in and not fully built. But that map is not proof either way.

[Far Rock Depot]

Where did I every say that there were never plans for this station? I know there were plans, I've been to Euclid Av Tower and I have seen the model board, I've seen the signal schematics, and on and on, probably more them you have ever seen. Also, where did I say i have proof that the station does not exist? I never said that, in fact I know certain things about that area that most people don't know.

 

All I was saying is that the map doesn't mean that a station was built. It only shows that the area would look like if it was completed and used. It may look like that, just with the station being filled in and not fully built. But that map is not proof either way.

 

1) I never said you (in particular or not) stated there were never any plans. It was a general point.

 

2) I never said you (in particular or not) stated the station does not exist. there are many of us involved in this debate.

 

3) I too have seen the board, schematics, etc. Its not a debate on who knows more. Its a debate on 76th St. If youre gonna take it personal, take a breather.

 

and on one final note, I dont know what you know and you dont know what i know. But i do know one thing i have, i little bit more history and a different experience from yours. The map is more evidence towards the possibility. Please, stop responding as if you're taking this to heart. My comments are not aimed to defunk what you know. I would like to know what you could know. Comments like "Probably more than you have ever seen", is IMO the equivalent of "puffing up your chest" seeing how i Do not know what you have seen. Just like you dont know what ive seen. Lets keep it civil please.

[engineerboy6561]

...and so it continues. The 1948 map doesn't necessarily convince me, and the "photo" doesn't either; anyone who has seen the stuff on TTMG's PhotoShop page will understand why. The engineering oddities, however, are another matter altogether. The choice of cinderblock for the wall is surprising, as is the choice to put signals far too close to the wall to serve any real purpose for a Euclid Av terminal. Their placement implies that there is something behind that wall, even if it's a 600' cavern with nothing even resembling a station in it. I believe that this implies a station (or at least something) behind the wall because the 174 St Yard on the other end of the line was originally supposed to be an extension into NJ that got cut short before the bridge. However, from the picture I found on the Internet the ends are concrete, there are end-of-track buffers there that I haven't seen in any of the Euclid Av photos, and there are no oddly positioned signals.

[N-Trizzy2609]

...and so it continues. The 1948 map doesn't necessarily convince me, and the "photo" doesn't either; anyone who has seen the stuff on TTMG's PhotoShop page will understand why. The engineering oddities, however, are another matter altogether. The choice of cinderblock for the wall is surprising, as is the choice to put signals far too close to the wall to serve any real purpose for a Euclid Av terminal. Their placement implies that there is something behind that wall, even if it's a 600' cavern with nothing even resembling a station in it. I believe that this implies a station (or at least something) behind the wall because the 174 St Yard on the other end of the line was originally supposed to be an extension into NJ that got cut short before the bridge. However, from the picture I found on the Internet the ends are concrete, there are end-of-track buffers there that I haven't seen in any of the Euclid Av photos, and there are no oddly positioned signals.

 

The only reason why theres a concrete wall at 174th is because on the other side of that wall is Cross-Bronx Expwy. There was a cinderblock wall and even during the construction of Trans Manhattan Highway, the tunnel walls were replaced. (Just in case a decided to become superman and go through the wall it wont end up jumping into the traffic.) The cinderblock wall is now sandwiched between the concrete for the highway and the concrete wall to the train. I did alot of research (not internet, books) about the 174th Street tunnel. There's also signals in the 174th Street yard that are mad close to bumper. (six car lenths not as short)

[Far Rock Depot]

The photo, and the rest of that page, is obviously a fake, but with all great pranks, research has to be done for something like that to be presented as believable. Theres a lot of potential logic behind it. My hypothesis is that the shell and tile were built, but in favor of a cheaper alternative, was abandoned. From the way many heads-NO ONE IN PARTICULAR (not yelling, but my version of not so "fine print" lol)- are quick to say theres nothing there, saddens me. 76th ST at one point began as a rumor. Theres another rumor that began in the 70s and a man named Bob Diamond followed it. And now we know of the old Walt Whitman LIRR tunnel under Atlantic Ave.

[SubwayGuy]

This is proof that 76th Street was in service for a while. This was from Hagstrom in 1948.

 

From Columbia EDU it seems like there were both NIMBY opposition, and people suing the TA, because they believed the station was built by non unionized workers. Thus the TA closed the station on purpose to avoid all trouble. That is why the , and uses the Fulton Street Elevated past Grant Avenue.

 

OY!!!

 

[SubwayGuy]

The map is "proof" that conflicts all denial of any plans for 76th St at least. The idea of it and the "Urban Legends" that come from it makes this discussion fun. Because what IF its true? I didnt take it too seriously. IF you read My post thoroughly, I began the story with the word "supposedly". You might want to look that word up. Im not one to 'foam'. But seriously, its enough to want to find out more. Look at the old Atlantic ave tunnel that an individual dug out himself? urban legend has it that behind a concrete wall is an old steam train behind it. yeah that tunnel has been proved there NOW, but i bet back it the days, its was another "76th St". What made me think about the possibility is that if the station shell was made by non-union labor, logically, having it in service will be a legal liability. And im not sure if theres a stature of limitations in a case like that. Open up your mind a little. It doesnt hurt to pass on the urban legend to see that maybe in the future, someone wil be able to find out the answers. Is it there? Was it completed? Was it in service? Was, and is there still, a conspiracy to deny its existence? DOnt be too quick to shoot down everything. The map shows proof that its not all just a story. Its proof of the possibility. To say it means nothing is closed minded. And if a closed mind truly holds any weight, that Atlantic Ave tunnel would've never been found.

 

Another example: the Lower Manhattan Expressway. A Robert Moses project that was never completed. word has it there's a completed tunnel portion in the lower east side. There's no physical evidence of it from street level, And no known photos of the tunnel itself, but there's no denial of its existence.

 

An example like that makes me personally believe that the possibility of 76th ST's existence has merit. Now the questions need to be answered. Any info is good info so long as in time, facts can appeared. Now the back story of 76th st from the abandoned stations site may not be fact, but passing it on may bring someone forward who knows something and can shed some light, like bigrene18. Now theres more info we can look into.

 

And as far as the "photo" of that R10, anyone who knows MTA history knows the "corporate scheme" (blue stripe) didn't exist until after 1968.

 

Now for sake of debate, what proof do you have that it never saw service or even existed?

 

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

 

OK, these are known facts:

 

-The station was planned.

-Construction of the station began. The extent of progress is debated.

-Construction was halted before completion.

-The station (what was built of it) was walled off.

-It never saw service. Anyone who said it did can look up gullible in the dictionary and see if they find a picture of an R10 at 76th Street with their pregnant mother in the RF window.

 

People want to speculate and guess be my guest but these are facts so if you're going to play the game you've got to play by the rules which are above.

 

I know my opinion on the matter and I'm sticking to it, but the facts are not really open to interpretation.

[INDman]

1) I never said you (in particular or not) stated there were never any plans. It was a general point.

 

2) I never said you (in particular or not) stated the station does not exist. there are many of us involved in this debate.

 

3) I too have seen the board, schematics, etc. Its not a debate on who knows more. Its a debate on 76th St. If youre gonna take it personal, take a breather.

 

and on one final note, I dont know what you know and you dont know what i know. But i do know one thing i have, i little bit more history and a different experience from yours. The map is more evidence towards the possibility. Please, stop responding as if you're taking this to heart. My comments are not aimed to defunk what you know. I would like to know what you could know. Comments like "Probably more than you have ever seen", is IMO the equivalent of "puffing up your chest" seeing how i Do not know what you have seen. Just like you dont know what ive seen. Lets keep it civil please.

 

If your not commenting on something I have said, then don't quote me. When you do that, it looks like your going after me. As for what it was that I alluded to, the MTA did look into the whole "76th St thing" a few months ago and it was something that most many people knew about or know the results of. I'm not "puffing up my chest" since I'm not an ape nor am I taking any of this personally. I only said what I said because you quoted something I said so it looks like your talking directly to me and not generalizing.

[bigrene18]

It's the same with South 4th Street above the Broadway station on the . All those shells for these never built lines, and stations.

 

The never-used Roosevelt Avenue terminal station offers the "Twilight Zone" atmosphere of a semi-finished station frozen in time. There are no rails in the trackbeds, but there are tiles are up on the trackway walls, including the station name. The signs hanging over the platform, however, are blank. Me and a (NYCT) employee were able to walk quite a distance down the tunnel, the sound of trains from the active line beneath us creating the eerie impression that ghost IND trains on our own level were about to run us down. We emerged from a sidewalk emergency exit hatch not far from the Elmhurst Hospital.

 

 

South 4th St. is something else again. There's no power and it's a dark and dead as the inside of a pharoah's tomb. It's immense, and no camera flash could cut through the hanging dust to illuminate all of it. But I'm getting ahead of myself. Access, once you're let through a locked gate at the end of one of the platforms of the G's Broadway stop, is up the crude "ramps" that were never turned into finished stairways. They're steep, and slippery with steel dust. The station is a semi-complete shell, all platforms and trackbeds in place, but no rail, no tile, no stairs. What struck most of us over and over was the size. It actually has 6 tracks and 4 platforms. On the current system, you could only compare it to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. All this in a relative "middle of nowhere" as Brooklyn goes. Did the Board of Transportation have some real estate secrets we aren't privy to? Most of us got down on the trackbeds and walked to one end or the other to see where they deadended at blank walls, waiting for a connection that never came. The place is in perfect condition, as far as I could see, and ready to be used. There was no significant water infiltration, no sign of animal life or human intrusions (aside from occasional TA inspections). You have to give the builders credit for planning ahead as they did. It's a shame the proposed line never came to fruition.

[EE Broadway Local]

Not much. Just that I think there were only two maps printed in 1948. The original map showing the Fulton Street Line to Broadway-East New York and a revised map showing the extension to Euclid Avenue which opened on November 28, 1948.

 

That Hagstrom Map section could've been photoshopped also.

Yes we know all of that, but what does this have to do with the 76th Street station?

[8 Av/Fulton Exp]

ive been down in the Grant Ave lay-up and i saw nothing like an old station, although...there is a place where they park ©'s directly under the platform but then again that couldnt have been the station

[INDman]

There is not way into S4th At anymore, it has been sealed up after that "art" project they did dwn there so don't any of you get any bright ideas about trying to see it in person, you will get arrested.

[bigrene18]

There is not way into S4th At anymore, it has been sealed up after that "art" project they did dwn there so don't any of you get any bright ideas about trying to see it in person, you will get arrested.

 

Ummm, yes I knew that. I did this back in 1994/95. I just forgot to mention when I did it. Not really a big deal now is it?

[INDman]

Ummm, yes I knew that. I did this back in 1994/95. I just forgot to mention when I did it. Not really a big deal now is it?

 

Relax dude, I wasn't talking to you so there is no need for you to say anything to me. It was a general post to everyone who might read this thread.

You do know, it was only sealed up in the past 4 months or so. Up until then, it was still accessible. Now the police are actually watching it, waiting for people to try and get in.

[bigrene18]

Relax dude, I wasn't talking to you so there is no need for you to say anything to me. It was a general post to everyone who might read this thread.

 

 

Sorry, my bad.

 

You do know, it was only sealed up in the past 4 months or so. Up until then, it was still accessible. Now the police are actually watching it, waiting for people to try and get in.

 

Good thing I went in there when I had the chance.

[bigrene18]

I'm curious though as to what made the City decide to build an extension over to Grant Avenue rather than just finish what they had already started, since the four tracks that were supposed to continue along Pitkin Avenue dead-end at the bumper block. On the days that SMEEs ran on the I would look out the window and see the tracks that continued under Pitkin Aveue before the train switches to the Grant Avenue lead. It's obvious that they haven't been touched in a long time, as a train that layed-up on the two outer "local" tracks would have to go through a myriad of back and forth moves before being put into service, but the last time I've been on the line was in the summer, but it didn't seem like the two inner "express" tracks saw usage either, as it would be easier to lay up a train on those tracks if necessary because there's a diamond corssover between the express tracks just East of Euclid Avenue.

 

To add on, Dave on NYCSubway.org even estimated that the tracks end at approximately Elderts Lane, that's because that's where the cinderblock wall is located at. That's four blocks before 76th Street. So yeah there's something behind that wall but from the looks of how long the Fulton Street Line's sattions are, such as Euclid, chances are there'd be a short segment of tunnel before a station shell.

 

It's pretty positive that the tunnel extends beyond that wall, that wall was put there much later. I think most people accept that the tunnel was built further, just how much and if there is a station is what is the controversy.

If there is a long forgotten station anywhere, this is the line it would be. The line was built before World War II from Rockaway Ave to somewhere around here. The full station at Bway Junction was built, and tiled, but it lacked the metal for the rails and signals because of the war effort. The station shells at Liberty, Van Siclen, Shephard and Euclid were also all built before the war, and then construction stopped because of the war. It's not out of the realm of possibility that 76th St's shell was also built when the others were.

[LRG]

I'm curious though as to what made the City decide to build an extension over to Grant Avenue rather than just finish what they had already started, since the four tracks that were supposed to continue along Pitkin Avenue dead-end at the bumper block. On the days that SMEEs ran on the I would look out the window and see the tracks that continued under Pitkin Aveue before the train switches to the Grant Avenue lead. It's obvious that they haven't been touched in a long time, as a train that layed-up on the two outer "local" tracks would have to go through a myriad of back and forth moves before being put into service, but the last time I've been on the line was in the summer, but it didn't seem like the two inner "express" tracks saw usage either, as it would be easier to lay up a train on those tracks if necessary because there's a diamond corssover between the express tracks just East of Euclid Avenue.

 

To add on, Dave on NYCSubway.org even estimated that the tracks end at approximately Elderts Lane, that's because that's where the cinderblock wall is located at. That's four blocks before 76th Street. So yeah there's something behind that wall but from the looks of how long the Fulton Street Line's sattions are, such as Euclid, chances are there'd be a short segment of tunnel before a station shell.

 

It's pretty positive that the tunnel extends beyond that wall, that wall was put there much later. I think most people accept that the tunnel was built further, just how much and if there is a station is what is the controversy.

If there is a long forgotten station anywhere, this is the line it would be. The line was built before World War II from Rockaway Ave to somewhere around here. The full station at Bway Junction was built, and tiled, but it lacked the metal for the rails and signals because of the war effort. The station shells at Liberty, Van Siclen, Shephard and Euclid were also all built before the war, and then construction stopped because of the war. It's not out of the realm of possibility that 76th St's shell was also built when the others were.

 

Did you really have to copy what I wrote over on SubChat?

[bigrene18]

Did you really have to copy what I wrote over on SubChat?

 

So what? ************.

[EE Broadway Local]

Good question. I suspect the City Of New York decision to go via Grant Avenue and tie into the B.M.T. Fulton Street El is connected to the L.I.R.R.'s decision to sell its' Rockaway trestle after the fire in 1950. The city likely was able to acquire the Rockaway trestle at a lower cost and, in doing so, tie it into the Fulton Street El.

 

Acquiring the trestle and operating subway service to Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway allowed the city to fullfill a small provision of the IND, second system.

 

As you may know, with The Great Depression, and then World War II, the Fulton Street IND. had opened to Rockaway Avenue on April 9, 1936, then the line to Broadway-East New York didn't open until December 30, 1946. The extention to Euclid Avenue followed on November 28, 1948 then Grant Avenue followed on April 29, 1956 when the city tied the Fulton Street IND. into the Fulton Street El shortly before subway service to the Rockaways began on June 28th.

 

Sounds similiar to plans for the IND. Concourse Line: The Concourse Line was going to extended beyond 205th Street, but the city was able to acquire the NY W & B within the city limits at a lower cost.

 

Eventually tying the IND. at Church Avenue and Mc Donald Avenue into the Culver El at Ditmas Avenue at Mc Donald Avenue was a natural.

[LRG]

So what? ************.

 

So what? They're my observations, not yours.

 

if you're going to take a page off of what someone wrote, then at least give credit to that person. I wrote it, not you

[bigrene18]

So what? They're my observations, not yours.

 

if you're going to take a page off of what someone wrote, then at least give credit to that person. I wrote it, not you

 

So what? Who gives a damn what you think, you ************.

[Joe]

So what? Who gives a damn what you think, you ************.

 

...and you wondered why nobody was responding to your thread.

[bigrene18]

...and you wondered why nobody was responding to your thread.

 

You ************.

 

This is why SubChat is better. You f**kers on this website don't know respect or the technical details of the NYC Subway.

[Joe]

You f**kers on this website don't know respect or the technical details of the NYC Subway.

 

LOL.