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Fleet Swap Discussion Thread

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There's 160s on the C right now. Happy hunting

 

EDIT: It's not the swap, they're rerouted Es because of the derailment.

I saw an R160 (C) at either 125th or 145th,

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In 2015 the R143 SMS starts, so next year that's when they'll keep 2 sets, the R143 SMS timeframe is 2015-17

Doesn't one or two sets have to stay for the R143 SMS?

 

TBH, It wouldn't matter because nothing else can run on the Canarsie line but CBTC retrofitted equipment. The 208 R143s plus the 64 R160 units. So theres no way anything can be swapped off the (L) with other yards and its revenue equipment.

 

Non CBTC retrofitted rolling stock cannot run in revenue service properly on a line with such a signal system in place for numerous reasons. In fact with the SMS contract slated for the R143s in 2015, the duration is 2 years. Because of the reason that only a few of the sets can be pulled off the line at a time without impacting on service.

Edited by realizm
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As long as the (C) has enough spare cars (as well as enough trains for service), then fine, a set or two of R32s running on the (J) won't bite at all. As Art Vandelay said, if the (L) or (M) is short on equipment, a set or two of R32s will be sent to the (J) for a backfill. Those remaining 224 R32s have the highest spare ratio anyway (54%).

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The CBTC R160s 8313-8364 can also run on the (J)(M)(Z). If the R143 SMS starts, I think the (L) would use the CBTC R160s and have the (J)(Z) or the (M) use the R32.  

Edited by j express

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This is where I am scratching my head on this one: The (L) is already using all the CBTC equipped NTTs in the system - 212 R143 cars and 64 CBTC equipped R160 cars. 212 + 64 = 276/8 = 34 eight car sets. As it is the (L) runs at 16 TPH at the peak of the AM weekday rush. Multiply that by two = gives you 32 sets of eight car sets with 2 sets to spare.

 

This NY Times article cites 26 TPH on CBTC: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/nyregion/22subway.html?_r=0

 

We all know that its virtually impossible to say grab sets of R160's from anywhere else in the system. They cannot run on a CBTC equipped line, it will become hell for the T/Ds to even try to run cars standard for signal block signaling on a CBTC system and even be able to keep the train spacing in sync.

 

So my reasoning is that being that the (L) is an isolated line being that it is the only B division line running with CBTC technology, and that we have only 276 cars that can utilize the automatic signalling, then there is nothing the MTA can really do other than to pull out 2 to 4 four car sets at a time for SMS and deal with the missing gaps. Theres nothing to replace the cars with.


If I am wrong on this then I stand corrected.

Edited by realizm
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Gotcha. That clears up perfectly. The R143 SMS has no impact on the (J) and (M) at all for the aforementioned reasons. The (J) also already has enough cars on a regular basis, it doesn't need a set or two of R32s. But of course, as long as the (C) has enough trains for service and spare cars, that's all that matters and nothing more.

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All the R160's can support CBTC. They just have to install it. How do you think Queens Blvd CBTC is going to work?

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I heard that Jamaica R46s will go to C.I but I doubt that and C.I sends most of its R160s to Jamaica.

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All the R160's can support CBTC. They just have to install it. How do you think Queens Blvd CBTC is going to work?

 

 

Exactly. One time there was this glitch at 74th St-Broadway when the (7) announcement came on. It was the QBL (E)(F)(M)(R) announcement, not the Flushing Line (7) announcement "Ladies and Gentleman, there is a..... Queens bound.....local train, 1 station away!" and it actually came right after! According to my correct calculations.....

Edited by Priincenene
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All the R160's can support CBTC. They just have to install it. How do you think Queens Blvd CBTC is going to work?

 

Yes they can support CBTC but you just answered your own question, they have to be installed. Not all the R160's that are technically CBTC ready, are actually upgraded to run on that technology yet. Only 64 of them are out of the 1,662 cars that are on NYC Transit property.

 

The new technology to be installed on the IND Queens Blvd Line is going to be different from the technology installed on (L) or the (7) even as it is going to be incorporated into an existing signal block system. The only other city that has this set up on automatic train operation is San Francisco's MUNI.

 

Thats where the R211's come into the picture once the QBL project is done, it can take 8 years to complete the stretch from the 53rd St corridor and 63rd St line in Manhattan to Union Tpke, up and running. I'm pretty sure by then more CBTC ready R160's will be upgraded to actually be capable of running on automatic signalling. The R179's should already be ready to fly on CBTC out of the package sort of speak, I'm assuming.

 

If I may add, the tentative cars to run on the QBL must be able to switch from signal block to CBTC signalling mode on the fly  during a revenue service run. I don't think currently any NTTs in the system can do that without an upgrade. Not even the R188's.

Edited by realizm
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This is where I am scratching my head on this one: The (L) is already using all the CBTC equipped NTTs in the system - 212 R143 cars and 64 CBTC equipped R160 cars. 212 + 64 = 276/8 = 34 eight car sets. As it is the (L) runs at 16 TPH at the peak of the AM weekday rush. Multiply that by two = gives you 32 sets of eight car sets with 2 sets to spare.

 

This NY Times article cites 26 TPH on CBTC: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/nyregion/22subway.html?_r=0

 

We all know that its virtually impossible to say grab sets of R160's from anywhere else in the system. They cannot run on a CBTC equipped line, it will become hell for the T/Ds to even try to run cars standard for signal block signaling on a CBTC system and even be able to keep the train spacing in sync.

 

So my reasoning is that being that the (L) is an isolated line being that it is the only B division line running with CBTC technology, and that we have only 276 cars that can utilize the automatic signalling, then there is nothing the MTA can really do other than to pull out 2 to 4 four car sets at a time for SMS and deal with the missing gaps. Theres nothing to replace the cars with.

 

If I am wrong on this then I stand corrected.

They are only 208/212 R143s running. That last set is still out of service (who knows where 8277 is now.)

 

Now for the main part. Technically you could run (and is theoretically possible) a non-CBTC equipped train on the (L), BUT not without a major setback...

 

South of the Junction, you still have the original signals there just in case a car from ENY needs to go to the wash in Canarsie. It happens all the time, a few people (myself included) even caught the R32 going down there.

 

North of the Junction brings up the real problem...

 

The only signals left in place north of the Junction are home signals (and the station signals in 8 Av). And they are located at...

 

Broadway Junction

Myrtle-Wyckoff

Bedford Av

Union Sq

8 Av

 

If a signal block is between 2 signals, and you have signals spread so far apart, you can only have one train in between a signal and the next one. You would essentially have 1 signal block spanning 7 entire stations (Bedford to Myrtle) and you could only have one train in there at one time.

 

Now here's the thing...lets say hypothetically speaking you have a diesel train thats at Montrose Av. Even though CBTC is active the train wouldn't be able to see the diesel up ahead. That (L) train would have to wait at Halsey St until the diesel gets out of the signal block (which ends at Bedford Av.)

 

TL;DR: a non-CBTC train could run there, but the absolute block rule would take effect. Look at the Sea Beach express track between 8 Av and Kings Hwy, and the 3rd track on the Dyre branck. Only one train could be there at a time.

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So your saying lets say S/B (N) trains have to go down sea beach express.Your me that till a train leaves Kings Hwy,another one has to wait at 59th till it leaves?

Edited by Abba

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So your saying lets say S/B (N) trains have to go down sea beach express.Your me that till a train leaves Kings Hwy,another one has to wait at 59th till it leaves?

Since that's the closest station then yes. If you notice, there's no signals on that entire stretch of track and you don't want a train running into another train.

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When the R143 SMS starts a 2nd set of R32's will full in, this was told to me by a ta supervisor, and they're only for the (J) & (Z)

Edited by R32 3838
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They are only 208/212 R143s running. That last set is still out of service (who knows where 8277 is now.)

 

Now for the main part. Technically you could run (and is theoretically possible) a non-CBTC equipped train on the (L), BUT not without a major setback...

 

South of the Junction, you still have the original signals there just in case a car from ENY needs to go to the wash in Canarsie. It happens all the time, a few people (myself included) even caught the R32 going down there.

 

North of the Junction brings up the real problem...

 

The only signals left in place north of the Junction are home signals (and the station signals in 8 Av). And they are located at...

 

Broadway Junction

Myrtle-Wyckoff

Bedford Av

Union Sq

8 Av

 

If a signal block is between 2 signals, and you have signals spread so far apart, you can only have one train in between a signal and the next one. You would essentially have 1 signal block spanning 7 entire stations (Bedford to Myrtle) and you could only have one train in there at one time.

 

Now here's the thing...lets say hypothetically speaking you have a diesel train thats at Montrose Av. Even though CBTC is active the train wouldn't be able to see the diesel up ahead. That (L) train would have to wait at Halsey St until the diesel gets out of the signal block (which ends at Bedford Av.)

 

TL;DR: a non-CBTC train could run there, but the absolute block rule would take effect. Look at the Sea Beach express track between 8 Av and Kings Hwy, and the 3rd track on the Dyre branck. Only one train could be there at a time.

 

Thanks for the breakdown, this certainly added to my knowledge. +1.

 

When the R143 SMS starts a 2nd set of R32's will full in, this was told to me by a ta supervisor, and they're only for the (J) & (Z)

 

I'll keep that in mind for the future in 2015 when I go railfanning.

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I heard that Jamaica R46s will go to C.I but I doubt that and C.I sends most of its R160s to Jamaica.

What would they run on?

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What would they run on?

I think the R46s would just be unrestricted, and would operate on all routes served by the R68/As. On the other side, the R160s would operate on all Jamaica routes.

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Yea, a 46 cant make the curve east of consent street and they couldn't pass another train on the WillyB approach, also a 8 car 75 foot train can't fit on the Eastern Division platforms. However a 46 went on the M line down to Fresh Pond Rd on a fan trip many years ago.

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What is the reason we don't see 75ft cars on the J/M/Z lines? Too big to take narrow turns?

In some places they would sideswipe each other, the Crescent St curve,

-Sideswipe problem at the ends of the Willy B.

sideswipe problem for M line at Myrtle-Bway curve.

 

impassible problem at Crescent St S curve.
-impassible problem on the L line around Graham or Grand.Subwayr46freshpond-1.jpg
They ran as far as Fresh Pond Yard on July 4th, 1976:
"That isn't the problem. Technically (someone please correct if wrong), a 75 foot car COULD run to Canarsie via Broadway (Brooklyn) if two trains of 75' cars aren't passing by the Manhattan portal of the Williamsburg Bridge at the same time. But I don't think they can run to Metropolitan Avenue, and I'm sure they cannot run east of Broadway Junction into Alabama Avenue even if these rules were amended."
Reference
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@Orion V 9941 A 75FT car and another train can't pass one another on that curve on the BK side of the Williamsburg Bridge. The 75ft car would make contact with the other train.

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How would a QBL CBTC work, 8th Ave, 6th Ave and Crosstown line are not CBTC. Would you have it CBTC on that corridor then two operator operating in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Wouldnt that defeat the whole purpose?? After Flushing line and Carnarsi line, only the shuttle line can go to CBTC without forcing the rest of the system to also be CBTC. 

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Not necessarily. The idea behind CBTC on the Queens Boulevard line is to run trains closer than they can do so with the current signal system, but only on that segment of the E, F, M and R lines. They would likely be delayed on 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue and Broadway respectively for what should be obvious reasons.

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Hi I'm new here. Is it okay if I can get things straight here? So far what I understand is that:

 

Every summer, there is an R32-NTT fleet swap between the  (A)  (C) and the  (J)  (Z) . Which trains go to where and why is this swap done? 

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