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Fleet Swap Discussion Thread

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7 hours ago, Collin said:

My opinion is that the regular R211s should go to Pitkin/207 and Coney Island, the same yards that currently run R46s.  It eliminates the need for another swap.  However, any R211Ts should go to Jamaica, displacing Siemens R160s cars back to CI.  There would not be perfect uniformity.  There would still be a majority and minority fleet at each yard.  

There are 180 siemens cars at Jamaica and I believe only 20 R211 open gangway cars. That couldnt possibly displace all the siemens out of Jamaica.

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I'm saying if more R211Ts were ordered in an option, which is entirely possible, they should all go to Jamaica Yard

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I'll throw in some predictions while we're at it. :P

Personally, I can see the base order and a chunk of option 1 going to Pitkin/207 Street, while the rest of the order to CI. The R160s at CI can be bumped to Jamaica, and surplus R68s can go to Concourse, in order to make the yards as uniform as possible.

 

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1 hour ago, SimplyMyself said:

I'll throw in some predictions while we're at it. :P

Personally, I can see the base order and a chunk of option 1 going to Pitkin/207 Street, while the rest of the order to CI. The R160s at CI can be bumped to Jamaica, and surplus R68s can go to Concourse, in order to make the yards as uniform as possible.

 

They might have to also adjust the R211 order to accommodate more 4-car units if the R179s are not repairable.

 

If NO adjustments are made to the order, we would probably see the R211 order distributed as follows:

 

850 cars to Jamaica for the (E)(F) 

500 cars to Pitkin for the (A)(S) 

75 Cars to Staten Island (SIR)

250 to 207 St Yard for the (C).

32 cars to ENY for the (M) or (L).

 

Additional moves:

370 R160s from Jamaica to Concourse to the (D)

480 R160s from Jamaica to Coney Island for the (B) and (Q).

 

if the R179s end up proving reliable, then it would be an extra 130 R160s moved to Coney Island for the (N)(W) with the R68s holding down the majority of the fleet. And the R179s moved all to ENY for (J) service and R160A-1 cars moved to Coney Island for the (G).
 

All R68s and R68As moved to the (N)(W), where they’ll likely run their last years on.

 

And yes, although almost everyone in the forums knows how annoying I’ve been about making sure the (N)(W) remain all NTTs, it seems like the most logical choice because if 8 Av CBTC will be coming online, all 6 Av line trains also have to be compatible in case of reroutes (such as the (B) and (D) via 8 Av). Unless the new CBTC system will permit occasional reroutes of non-CBTC compatible trains thru its territory. Again, I’m not an expert on this but I’m going on that assumption.


 

if the R179s have to be permanently sidelined, then the R211 contract would have to be modified to include more 4-car sets. A good method could be to swap out the (L) trains’ R143 fleet to the (J) and replace the fleet with 280 R211s. The R160A-1 fleet would then be split between the (G) and (M).

 

1580 cars in 5-car units minus 280 additional cars switched to 4-car configurations = 1300 cars left

 

75 cars to the SIR

500 Cars to Pitkin and 250 cars to 207 St as described above. But this time, only 475 to Jamaica for the (E) and a portion of the (F), and bump out 370 R160s to Concourse for the (D) and about 100 R160s to Coney Island for the (B)

 

then the (N)(Q)(W) will be stuck with R68s. This assignment is keeping in mind the necessary flexibility of 8 Av CBTC with potential reroutes of (B) and (D) trains 

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All this speculation is moot as there aren't going to be any R211s for the foreseeable future. The COVID-19 pandemic has effectively put all planned projects and deliveries on indefinite hold.

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25 minutes ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

All this speculation is moot as there aren't going to be any R211s for the foreseeable future. The COVID-19 pandemic has effectively put all planned projects and deliveries on indefinite hold.

 

wasn't the base order paid for already? This would only effect the Option Orders.

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44 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

 

wasn't the base order paid for already? This would only effect the Option Orders.

Yeah I thought so too. That the R211 order is already all set

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3 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

wasn't the base order paid for already? This would only effect the Option Orders.

It could delay the delivery if kawasaki halted manufacturing temporarily as a result to the pandemic. For example, at one point the test train was expected in July which probably wont happen because of COVID.

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18 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

Jamaica Is Getting a large chunk of these cars. 58 inch doors are a big factor. They are not that stupid not to give jamaica any R211's. I can see the Base order going to pitkin and coney for the (Q) and the option orders going to Jamaica and pitkin.

Why Put cars with larger doors on lines that don't get high ridership vs the ones that do. This is why they made the Lex 100% R142/R142A's due to that key factor. The (E)(F) are the busiest B division routes. All of those R160's aren't staying at Jamaica, They only made it 100% to get them ready for CBTC. Coney Island getting a decent chunk of those R160's back, It wouldn't make sense for CI to get a large amount of these cars. If the Astoria CBTC is done by the time they say they want it done, They can use R160's. The R211's that would go to CI should go to the (Q) since its ridership is the highest.

That's not even the point. The point is the aging of the CBTC signaling system on each trunk line that has it. There's a reason why the R160s were sent to Jamaica Yard in the first place. And the Lex was only made 100% NTTs because Flushing CBTC wasn't even started yet at the time on top of clearance issues or whatever was the problem inside the Steinway tubes.

Sending the R160s back to Coney Island would mean this swap was a waste of time to begin with and that alone makes the (MTA) itself look that stupid.

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8 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

All this speculation is moot as there aren't going to be any R211s for the foreseeable future. The COVID-19 pandemic has effectively put all planned projects and deliveries on indefinite hold.

like others have pointed out, the base order of 211s will not be affected however there's a highly likely chance that it will be delayed due to the pandemic. they were originally suppose to arrive in july of this year but because of COVID we have no idea when to expect them. 

and as for where the cars will end up i believe it is too early to see where since we don't even have the base order on property. 

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10 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

All this speculation is moot as there aren't going to be any R211s for the foreseeable future. The COVID-19 pandemic has effectively put all planned projects and deliveries on indefinite hold.

They are under the 2015-19 capital plan. 2020-24 is what got delayed.

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Just now, Around the Horn said:

They are under the 2015-19 capital plan. 2020-24 is what got delayed.

Actually some projects from the 2015-2019 Capital Plan is also on the delayed list including CBTC installation on 8th Avenue due to the current situation. It's not just the 2020-24 Capital Plan projects.

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5 minutes ago, Daniel The Cool said:

Actually some projects from the 2015-2019 Capital Plan is also on the delayed list including CBTC installation on 8th Avenue due to the current situation. It's not just the 2020-24 Capital Plan projects.

8th Avenue CBTC design was under 15-19 and that was already completed. Construction is under 20-24 which is being held.

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Just now, Around the Horn said:

8th Avenue CBTC design was under 15-19 and that was already completed. Construction is under 20-24 which is being held.

Nope not according to this.

Quote

The damage ranges from the enormous gap in the MTA’s operating budget to projects from the $30 billion 2015-2019 capital program that were scheduled to start this year. Among them are:

Signal modernization along the A/C/E subway lines

Elevator installations at more than a dozen subway stations to bring them into compliance with the Americans With Disabilities Act

Structural repairs along the No. 7 line, including renovation at seven stops

The hold also includes the MTA’s entire $51 billion 2020-2024 capital program. While not yet funded, the largest capital plan in agency history laid out an ambitious roadmap.

 

https://www.amny.com/transit/mta-pulls-emergency-brake-on-all-major-projects-as-financial-woes-mount/?fbclid=IwAR1gh-frzxL8I65ONEmpk8cA6RD0123rAk7dMgdO9LctM_S9h7TcPeyeFHM

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1 hour ago, Daniel The Cool said:

That’s what I’ve been trying to get across for over a decade. Been around a long time and I have learned that nothing is guaranteed until the final brick is laid and the power is turned on. The Capital Budgets are not etched in stone . Same thing holds for bond issues and contracts when it comes to government. Just my observation. Carry on.

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There are a ton of people on this forum speculating which yards/lines the R211s will be assigned to whom believe that they will be on NYCT property in the coming year. We have experienced perhaps the worst economic disaster in a century, millions of people have lost their jobs, and the agency is looking to cut, not add. Come on now, you're really telling me that something of this magnitude wouldn't prevent the 211s from coming in on time? The fact that they were paid off under the 2015-2019 Capital Plan means next to nothing when the entire agency has been significantly compromised.

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1 hour ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

There are a ton of people on this forum speculating which yards/lines the R211s will be assigned to whom believe that they will be on NYCT property in the coming year. We have experienced perhaps the worst economic disaster in a century, millions of people have lost their jobs, and the agency is looking to cut, not add. Come on now, you're really telling me that something of this magnitude wouldn't prevent the 211s from coming in on time? The fact that they were paid off under the 2015-2019 Capital Plan means next to nothing when the entire agency has been significantly compromised.

See, if we had people who could actually give a shit at the helm, we wouldn't be in this predicament. Unfortunately, those in charge are mealy-mouthed, at best...

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13 hours ago, Jemorie said:

That's not even the point. The point is the aging of the CBTC signaling system on each trunk line that has it. There's a reason why the R160s were sent to Jamaica Yard in the first place. And the Lex was only made 100% NTTs because Flushing CBTC wasn't even started yet at the time on top of clearance issues or whatever was the problem inside the Steinway tubes.

Sending the R160s back to Coney Island would mean this swap was a waste of time to begin with and that alone makes the (MTA) itself look that stupid.

The MTA is that stupid and there are other past actions to back that up. The R211s have been promised to Jamaica since day 1 and I dont see them going to CI. What it appears happened was is that the MTA was so desperate to do CBTC along Queens Blvd that they couldnt possibly wait another two years for the R211 so they did this rather pointless fleet swap. Once the R211s arrive expect all former CI R160s to be returned.

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10 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

There are a ton of people on this forum speculating which yards/lines the R211s will be assigned to whom believe that they will be on NYCT property in the coming year. We have experienced perhaps the worst economic disaster in a century, millions of people have lost their jobs, and the agency is looking to cut, not add. Come on now, you're really telling me that something of this magnitude wouldn't prevent the 211s from coming in on time? The fact that they were paid off under the 2015-2019 Capital Plan means next to nothing when the entire agency has been significantly compromised.

Yes, something of this magnitude certainly can prevent the R211s from coming in on time. But if the base order of 535 cars is already paid for, then we will get them, maybe a year or (hopefully not) two behind schedule. Why wouldn’t we if they’re already paid for? The option orders are a different story. If those aren’t yet paid for, then we’re looking at a significant number of R46s sticking around for the foreseeable future.

9 hours ago, Lex said:

See, if we had people who could actually give a shit at the helm, we wouldn't be in this predicament. Unfortunately, those in charge are mealy-mouthed, at best...

Well, we did (at NYCTA, anyway)...

4 hours ago, happy283 said:

The MTA is that stupid and there are other past actions to back that up. The R211s have been promised to Jamaica since day 1 and I dont see them going to CI. What it appears happened was is that the MTA was so desperate to do CBTC along Queens Blvd that they couldnt possibly wait another two years for the R211 so they did this rather pointless fleet swap. Once the R211s arrive expect all former CI R160s to be returned.

When exactly were the R211s ever promised to Jamaica? They already got R160s and now every single train that runs on the Queens Blvd Line is an R160, fully capable of interfacing with CBTC. That’s exactly what they needed to do, so there’s really no reason to waste time and return the former CI R160s back to CI. Yes, they did that with the Livonia and Westchester R62As, although those cars ran on the (7) for 15 years before being returned to the (6), and Corona Barn wasn’t properly equipped to handle any New Tech-generation trains. But the R62As did have A/C and, in 2002, still had many single units, so they could easily send them to Corona to run 11-car trains on the (7) and <7> (the railfan in me really would have liked for them to have used the purple 11 bullet on the roll signs when the R62As were there, but since they’re not there now, it doesn’t really matter). 

Only the base order of 535 cars was paid for in the 2015-19 Capital Plan. So we’ll get those cars, albeit a year or two later than expected. That won’t be enough to fully equip the (E), (F) and (R) lines, so some R160s will have to stay in Jamaica. Why have two significantly different car classes to contend with when you’ve currently got just one? Jamaica is fully R160s now, including the ENY trains that come to visit on weekdays when the (M) is running there. Why change it back? Because someone at Transit “made a promise” that the R211s would be put there years ago? Someone who might not even be there now?

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
Clarification
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On 6/20/2020 at 6:27 AM, happy283 said:

8658-86678688-86928708-87128723-87278858-8862, 8878-88828888-8897, 8953-89628993-89979003-90079013-90229113-9117, 9128-91329163-91679198-92029223-92279268-92729328-9332, 9408-9412, 9423-94279453-94629503-95079533-9537, 9628-96329673-96779688-96929728-97329738-97429818-98229843-98479853-98579873-9877, 9903-9907

190 cars. 19 trains loaned to pitkin for (A) service. Quote me if there any sets I left out or with any new sightings.

2 Siemens sets went back to Jamaica and was spotted on the E.

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18 hours ago, Jemorie said:

That's not even the point. The point is the aging of the CBTC signaling system on each trunk line that has it. There's a reason why the R160s were sent to Jamaica Yard in the first place. And the Lex was only made 100% NTTs because Flushing CBTC wasn't even started yet at the time on top of clearance issues or whatever was the problem inside the Steinway tubes.

Sending the R160s back to Coney Island would mean this swap was a waste of time to begin with and that alone makes the (MTA) itself look that stupid.

Sending the R160's back to coney island wouldn't be a waste of time. If Jamaica Get's the Option order which would start in 2023 then it wouldn't be a waste.

 

You Guys don't use logic at all, The R211's are built for high ridership in mind. They are coming in with CBTC installed from the start. Again, why would you put cars with 58 inch doors on the (N)(W) which doesn't get as much ridership as the (E)  (F) lines. The only logical line out of CI to put these cars on is the (Q)

At this point we don't know if we would get the Option Order cars due to the budget shortfall. But If we do get them and they are Open Gangway, Jamaica would be first in line to get just about enough to make the (E)(F) 70% R211's. Jamaica Would Loose about 600-700 R160's not all of them.

I can see the (A) getting a small chunk of the base order with enough cars to coney for the (Q) line. We all Know Coney Island is getting these cars but I don't expect them to get alot. If anything Jamaica would get a very small amount of R211's (base order) just to push the siemens back to CI.

 

the 2 sets of R211T is a toss up between Pitkin and Jamaica.

 

who Knows All 3 yards might get the base order with Jamaica getting the smallest amount.

 

Edit the (A) to get a small chunk, I just realized that if the (A) gets 130-150 cars. with the 13 r179's that's about 78-80% of the (A) line being Tech trains.

 

So the base order 440 standard R211A's

Pitkin: 120 cars

Coney Island : 180

Jamaica: 160 cars

 

 

 

Edited by R32 3838
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11 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

There are a ton of people on this forum speculating which yards/lines the R211s will be assigned to whom believe that they will be on NYCT property in the coming year.

That's because they will be... Expect the pilot set sometime late summer/early fall.

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1 hour ago, 553 Bridgeton said:

2 Siemens sets went back to Jamaica and was spotted on the E.

You didnt quote the updated list. Here it is below.

8663-8667, 8708-8712, 8723-8727, 8828-8832, 8858-8862, 8878-8882, 8888-8892, 8953-8962, 8993-8997, 9003-9007, 9018-9022, 9128-9132, 9223-9227, 9268-9272, 9328-9332, 9408-9412, 9423-9427, 9453-9457, 9503-9507, 9533-9537, 9568-9572, 9628-9632, 9688-9692, 9728-9732, 9818-9822, 9843-9847, 9853-9857, 9873-9877, 9903-9907

150 cars. 15 trains at pitkin

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18 hours ago, Jemorie said:

That's not even the point. The point is the aging of the CBTC signaling system on each trunk line that has it. There's a reason why the R160s were sent to Jamaica Yard in the first place. And the Lex was only made 100% NTTs because Flushing CBTC wasn't even started yet at the time on top of clearance issues or whatever was the problem inside the Steinway tubes.

Sending the R160s back to Coney Island would mean this swap was a waste of time to begin with and that alone makes the (MTA) itself look that stupid.

the lex was 100% NTT's because of the high ridership and Because of politics Mainly Bloomberg. The (3) was originally was gonna get a chunk of the R142 order but that changed and the (4) ended up being 98% R142/142A's until 2009 when it was 100% R142/142A.

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