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Fleet Swap Discussion Thread

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Hypothetically, if Lexington Avenue CBTC happens before the R262s come in, I then there would need to be another fleet swap to make Lex 100% NTT.  Here's how I think it should happen if that is necessary.

R62A from (6) to (2)

R142A from (4) to (6)

R142 from (2) to (4) and (6)

I believe the (2) fleet is bigger than the (6) fleet, so some R142s would stay on the (2)

Edited by Collin

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2 hours ago, Collin said:

Hypothetically, if Lexington Avenue CBTC happens before the R262s come in, I then there would need to be another fleet swap to make Lex 100% NTT.  Here's how I think it should happen if that is necessary.

R62A from (6) to (2)

R142A from (4) to (6)

R142 from (2) to (4) and (6)

I believe the (2) fleet is bigger than the (6) fleet, so some R142s would stay on the (2)

Nah.. I doubt they would want to send 62As to the (2) cause of equipment swaps with the (5) at Flatbush terminal. 

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8 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

Tomorrow NYCT is running a weekend schedule which means no (Z) service and most likely no R32s. In the years when ENY had all the 8 car 160s and the 50 R42s, the 42s sometimes ran off peak and weekends so I guess possible a 32 could run tomorrow..

That was pre covid when the R42 ran on weekends. Due to the half cabs, the R32s are used exclusively for peak service.

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22 hours ago, Fuseguy is Cool said:

Off topic here but who's actually going to film the R32s tomorrow? 

Nope. The risks are too high, considering what happened with states like Florida, California, etc. I'm going to play it safe.

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21 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

When I quote and reply, I am not necessary outing the person in the quote, just the general conversation.  But you did say you found the whole thing overblown.  I disagree.  Can we just err on the side of caution for the sake of our t/o's?  We've had over 130 dead transit workers so far, something like 86 in the Dept. of Subways alone.  We don't want more.  All we ask is to keep your distance.  If somebody thinks there is virtually zero chance of a person standing outside the cab door to infect the t/o, fine.  But the policy is the policy.

The cab door IS NOT MADE OF STEEL.  It's basically 2 pieces of tin held together with studs that are hammered together and hung by more studs to the frame of the cab.  When we had corner cabs it was a regular thing to have cab doors vandalized and thrown on the floor.

As much as many people want to see the R32's riding the rails again, including myself, @Bill from Maspethis correct. Considering what is happening to Florida, California, and many other states in west and east of the U.S., we need to play it safe. The operators are already taking a risk even operating the R32 and we shouldn't be putting them at more risk than they are already at right now. As Bill said, we should "err on the side of caution for the sake of our T/O's".

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Whats the current roster of R160s assigned to the (A). I know alot of transferring has taken place recently.

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7 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

I was told by a conductor that there aren't door controls in the operator cabs. Ideally, I would think if they could operate in the 4x4 position, they would. There are drum switches on the R32 (and R42) that signify which half cabs the master door controller will work. It has On/off/thru. Off at the ends of the trains, thru at the conductors positions, and on at the two conductor zones. There aren't any seats in the middle of the married pair sets which is probably the reason why conductors hate them.

False. The R32s have door controls in every single cab.

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30 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

False. The R32s have door controls in every single cab.

Curious, what's preventing them from operating in the 4x4 position then?

Oops looks like R42's don't have drum switches

Edited by danielhg121

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The fact that R42 conductor boards are still at J and Z stations.

Edited by RedLine
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If I recall correctly, when the R32s first went to the J/Z (whatever that was, five-six years ago now?) they used the 4/4 position like the 160s. I can't remember why switched to 5/3. Maybe consistency with the 42s at the time. 

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Definitely had something to do with the R42 platform boards; which begs the question of why the R40/42s ever ran on the Eastern Division in the first place.  Would've been easier to have it R32/38 after GOH- unsolved mysteries I guess.

Edited by R10 2952

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3 hours ago, happy283 said:

That was pre covid when the R42 ran on weekends. Due to the half cabs, the R32s are used exclusively for peak service.

For now, they might run 1 or 2 tomorrow if they need a train. Remember the 143's and 160's need to go through inspection as well plus a good portion of those 143's are going back to the (L) on monday

But I wouldn't count on them running tomorrow.

Today 5 trains ran, it seems like they're increasing the amount on a day by day basis. They have over 94 cars, that's about 11 sets which 8 or 9 would be used out of 11. 

 

 

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On 7/1/2020 at 8:58 PM, Calvin said:

R42 farewell units 4826-4827 are the new "work" service cars, currently out of C.I. 

add 4830-31 to that list as well (i caught them today on the refuse train via QBL/culver/crosstown)

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15 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Tomorrow NYCT is running a weekend schedule which means no (Z) service and most likely no R32s. In the years when ENY had all the 8 car 160s and the 50 R42s, the 42s sometimes ran off peak and weekends so I guess possible a 32 could run tomorrow..

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/NYCTSubway/status/1278791557655781376

There's 2 running on the (J) from what a friend told me

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14 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

For now, they might run 1 or 2 tomorrow if they need a train. Remember the 143's and 160's need to go through inspection as well plus a good portion of those 143's are going back to the (L) on monday

But I wouldn't count on them running tomorrow.

Today 5 trains ran, it seems like they're increasing the amount on a day by day basis. They have over 94 cars, that's about 11 sets which 8 or 9 would be used out of 11. 

I was on the (J) yesterday morning during peak and only saw 3 trains of R32s. When and where were the other two sets you speak of? There were only 3 trains of R143s on the (J) which was probably coming out of the spare factor for the (L). Also how often does each set get an inspection?

Edited by happy283

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7 minutes ago, happy283 said:

I was on the (J) yesterday morning during peak and only saw 3 trains of R32s. When and where were the other two sets you speak of? There were only 3 trains of R143s on the (J) which was probably coming out of the spare factor for the (L). Also how often does each set get an inspection?

 

There were 5 R32's running during the PM rush hour all were (Z) trains with 1 R160

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1 minute ago, R32 3838 said:

 

There were 5 R32's running during the PM rush hour all were (Z) trains with 1 R160

Looks like they are on track to making the (Z) full R32 since the sets run the (Z) only do one round trip. Other than that they may not need other R32s if they can keep 2-3 R143s.

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On 7/2/2020 at 11:44 AM, Bill from Maspeth said:

The ORDER was given to operate 3x5 because those c/r boards have R32/R42 stickers on them.

 

On 7/2/2020 at 2:19 PM, danielhg121 said:

I was told by a conductor that there aren't door controls in the operator cabs. Ideally, I would think if they could operate in the 4x4 position, they would. There are drum switches on the R32 (and R42) that signify which half cabs the master door controller will work. It has On/off/thru. Off at the ends of the trains, thru at the conductors positions, and on at the two conductor zones. There aren't any seats in the middle of the married pair sets which is probably the reason why conductors hate them.

Didn't you see my response to what Calvin asked?  This is one of my biggest pet-peeves from too many of the posters here. And I've said it many times before.  Folks post stuff, ask questions, respond to things, yet if they go back a little bit they can save everybody's time because the correct answer has been given.  In this case it was on the same page, given less than 3 hours before and like 6 posts in between.  By me emphasizing the word ORDER, that automatically means that there ARE conductor controls in the (train) operator cabs. Furthermore, haven't you ever ridden the C when R32's operated there for YEARS and noticed where the conductor operates from?

And how long did that c/r have in title who gave you that false information?  Was it an IRT conductor?  If it was a BMT/IND conductor either he/she ought to be ashamed of not knowing the equipment or he/she thought you were referring to the R42's. I saw you corrected yourself in a later post about drum switches on the R42,  When I was a conductor we were told the seats in the cab were MOTORMEN (train operator) seats.  NOT CONDUCTOR SEATS!,  because the c/r is supposed to be seen by the passengers in between stations.  Plus c/r's were caught and written up many times for operating doors while sitting down, especially with the R38's, R44 and R46's  Even with half cabs, the c/r was supposed to be standing outside the cab in between stations unless crowding prevented it. 

 

17 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

If I recall correctly, when the R32s first went to the J/Z (whatever that was, five-six years ago now?) they used the 4/4 position like the 160s. I can't remember why switched to 5/3. Maybe consistency with the 42s at the time. 

Brand new conductors forgot the difference between the R32/42.  Realize many new conductors did not grow up railfans or even rode the subway.  They have the jitters. Maybe they broke in on the J line when there were only R160's and R42's, now R32's are on the scene.  I was a able to adjust to that stuff because I grew up riding the system, but to others the subway was a completely new experience.  Many just knew "old train", "new train" on the J/Z.  So when the R32's first arrived on the J/Z several years ago, they would automatically go to the 3x5 position on the R32's and now there was a problem since they were supposed to operate 4x4 on an R32 since the #1 cab also had c/r controls.  So management caved in to the not so informed and said to the c/r's to treat R32 door operating position like an R42.  They came out with a bulletin and put appropriate stickers on the c/r boards at every station on the J/Z line.

 

17 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

Curious, what's preventing them from operating in the 4x4 position then?

Oops looks like R42's don't have drum switches

See the 2 above posts.

Edited by Bill from Maspeth
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21 minutes ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

 

Didn't you see my response to what Calvin asked?  This is one of my biggest pet-peeves from too many of the posters here. And I've said it many times before.  Folks post stuff, ask questions, respond to things, yet if they go back a little bit they can save everybody's time because the correct answer has been given.  In this case it was on the same page, given less than 3 hours before and like 6 posts in between.  By me emphasizing the word ORDER, that automatically means that there ARE conductor controls in the (train) operator cabs. Furthermore, haven't you ever ridden the C when R32's operated there for YEARS and noticed where the conductor operates from?

And how long did that c/r have in title who gave you that false information?  Was it an IRT conductor?  If it was a BMT/IND conductor either he/she ought to be ashamed of not knowing the equipment or he/she thought you were referring to the R42's.  And R42's DO NOT HAVE DRUM SWITCHES either!  When I was a conductor we were told the seats in the cab were MOTORMEN (train operator) seats.  NOT CONDUCTOR SEATS!,  because the c/r is supposed to be seen by the passengers in between stations.  Plus c/r's were caught and written up many times for operating doors while sitting down, especially with the R38's, R44 and R46's  Even with half cabs, the c/r was supposed to be standing outside the cab in between stations unless crowding prevented it. 

😥

I realized I was wrong when I saw the old SubChat discussion from 2013 where you replied. LOL

Link: http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1232539

And, no the conductor is in the B division but she didn't tell me the full story I guess. So I just assumed the R32/42 were operated in the same manner from just pure observations. Had no idea they had different door controls. So let me get this straight, R42's DO NOT have door controls in the operators position and they utilize an MDC system but R32's on the other hand have door controls in every cab and utilize drum switches. 

So, whats the difference between an MDC and a drum switch? And, maybe we shld edit the wiki pages with this info?

 

Edited by danielhg121
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5 minutes ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Brand new conductors forgot the difference between the R32/42.  Realize many new conductors did not grow up railfans or even rode the subway.  They have the jitters. Maybe they broke in on the J line when there were only R160's and R42's, now R32's are on the scene.  I was a able to adjust to that stuff because I grew up riding the system, but to others the subway was a completely new experience.  Many just knew "old train", "new train" on the J/Z.  So when the R32's first arrived on the J/Z several years ago, they would automatically go to the 3x5 position on the R32's and now there was a problem since they were supposed to operate 4x4 on an R32 since the #1 cab also had c/r controls.  So management caved in to the not so informed and said to the c/r's to treat R32 door operating position like an R42.  They came out with a bulletin and put appropriate stickers on the c/r boards at every station on the J/Z line.

Very interesting. I had a sneaking suspicion this was the reason but didn't want to jump to the assumption. Sort of a depressing thought not to have that level of familiarity with the equipment – buffs aside, you'd think that generally, most people can familiarize themselves with new equipment at their workplace, even out of the transit world. But of course the company rarely has any faith in its employees...I'm thinking of the way they treat 145th on the A Division, where reroutes and shuffled equipment aren't allowed to stop there despite the signs on the C/R board and all.

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7 minutes ago, danielhg121 said:

😥

I realized I was wrong when I saw the old SubChat discussion from 2013 where you replied. LOL

Link: http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1232539

And, no the conductor is in the B division but she didn't tell me the full story I guess. So I just assumed the R32/42 were operated in the same manner from just pure observations. Had no idea they had different door controls. So let me get this straight, R42's DO NOT have door controls in the operators position and they utilize an MDC system but R32's on the other hand have door controls in every cab and utilize drum switches. 

So, whats the difference between an MDC and a drum switch? And, maybe we shld edit the wiki pages with this info?

 

The R40, R40M and R42 were not built with door controls in the train operators cab.  Probably to save money.  I have no idea, but those were the specs the transit engineers requested.   But it created problems as the c/r had to be set up in a new position when operated in 8 car consists 3 south, 5 north instead of 4x4.  So they put up new boards throughout the BMT.  Naturally in the Eastern Division and of course the south since the M went via Brighton and just in case the railroad "blew up" and reroutes were needed on the Sea Beach and West End too.  They did not put them up on the IND.  You may remember that created problems when they put the above cars on the C for a time.

The 38's were the last cars with drum switches.  For those who don't know, drum switches are set to "ON" at the conductor cars, "OFF" at the train operator cars and "THRU" on all other cars.   I suppose the above cars were wired differently to eliminate drum switches.  Here the c/r needed 2 keys for door operation.  First the "Skate Key" which  set up the position and showed indication ( and took the place of drum switches)  and the regular key to open and close doors.  When the c/r had to change operating sides, he would take the skate key with him. 

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25 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Very interesting. I had a sneaking suspicion this was the reason but didn't want to jump to the assumption. Sort of a depressing thought not to have that level of familiarity with the equipment – buffs aside, you'd think that generally, most people can familiarize themselves with new equipment at their workplace, even out of the transit world. But of course the company rarely has any faith in its employees...I'm thinking of the way they treat 145th on the A Division, where reroutes and shuffled equipment aren't allowed to stop there despite the signs on the C/R board and all.

I forget how long conductor classroom training is but IIRC (from 40+ years ago LOL for me), I think it's only like for 2 weeks.  1 week in the classroom and 1 week in the yards with the various equipment.  And today most cars are very similar for conductors.  R32, vs. R46/68/68A vs. new tech.  When I was training we had R10's thrown into the mix.  In the IRT it's only R62/62A vs. new tech.

Third week you start breaking you in on the lines, I believe the c/r's do only 1 trip per line so they do at least 2 lines a day.  For example a trip on the M and R if they report to CTL.  A trip on the E and F with of course deadheading between 179 and Parsons.  Another day the J/L.  Probably 2 trips ( for an 8 hour day +) on the L and 1 trip on the J.  ETC.

A good trainer will talk non stop in between stations about the equipment, drum stuff into you, a bad one will be quiet just wanting the 2 hours for training.  Most conductors (and train operators) do not want students today because if the student messes up, it's on the trainer too!  When I was a c/r breaking in on the A line outta 207, my first trip was to Far Rock.  I had an R10!  My trainer fell asleep somewhere between 125 and 59 and woke up somewhere in Brooklyn.  But that was the old days!  I should have kept a daily diary and wrote a book after I retired!

Edited by Bill from Maspeth
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20 hours ago, happy283 said:

Whats the current roster of R160s assigned to the (A). I know alot of transferring has taken place recently.

There were 17 R160's on the A Thursday 7/2.  The roster of cars changes day to day.  Some trains have inspections, some trains had incidents while in service that day (BIE, door trouble, anything that a car inspector writes a report about).  These trains are transferred to Jamaica Yard for repair and a replacement train is substituted. 

This doesn't mean all 17 were in service at one time as if one goes bad during the day and the car inspector wants it off the road immediately, an R46 could be substituted till a replacement comes back and put in service for the PM rush.  Also some could be laid up after the AM rush if the crew is scheduled to finish in the yard.

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