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Fleet Swap Discussion Thread


INDman

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7 hours ago, Stormxx said:

Yes, but if the base order of r211's do go to coney, then they should go straight to the (Q). All im saying is, the base order isnt enough cars. Remember, the r211's (base order) are supposed to go to the (A)(C)(N)(Q)(W). We can only see r211's going to Jamaica if both orders are exercised. If you want coney's portion of the r211's to go to Jamaica, then coney deserves a lot of their r160's back.

Conclusion: the (MTA) NEEDS to exercise if we want to see r160's back on the (N)(Q)(W)

The base order of the R211's aren't supposed to go to the (N)(Q) and (W) anyways. Why are you bringing that idea here when the base order is meant specifically for the (A) and (C)? Hell, even that isn't enough to replace all the R46's on those lines. I do agree that the (MTA) needs to exercise on the option orders, even if we want to see the R160's back at Coney Island, the (MTA) doesn't have the funds to even order any extra train cars. It doesn't matter what your conclusion is as I'm going to say practically everyone here knows that should happen, we won't be getting the option orders unless they get funds for them.

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We need 1K cars to replace the r46's. The r46's run on the (A)(C)(N)(Q)(W).  If the mta doesnt have the funds to replace all the r46's, then why are the (MTA) saying that the base order will replace all R46's. If that's the case, the (E)(F)(M)(R) will stick with their 160's and the (A)(C)(N)(Q)(W) will get the new cars.

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4 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

The base order of the R211's aren't supposed to go to the (N)(Q) and (W) anyways. Why are you bringing that idea here when the base order is meant specifically for the (A) and (C)? Hell, even that isn't enough to replace all the R46's on those lines. I do agree that the (MTA) needs to exercise on the option orders, even if we want to see the R160's back at Coney Island, the (MTA) doesn't have the funds to even order any extra train cars. It doesn't matter what your conclusion is as I'm going to say practically everyone here knows that should happen, we won't be getting the option orders unless they get funds for them.

Right

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9 minutes ago, Stormxx said:

We need 1K cars to replace the r46's. The r46's run on the (A)(C)(N)(Q)(W).  If the mta doesnt have the funds to replace all the r46's, then why are the (MTA) saying that the base order will replace all R46's. If that's the case, the (E)(F)(M)(R) will stick with their 160's and the (A)(C)(N)(Q)(W) will get the new cars.

I'm going to explain it to you in a way that I hope you will understand and try not to feel hurt by this as I'm pretty sure someone already mentioned these before:

1.) Please stop repeating statements in like 3 different threads because you sound like a broken record. 

2.) The base order is nowhere anywhere close to replacing all of the R46's. I already mentioned earlier that the base order alone wouldn't have been enough to replace the R46's on both the (A) and (C). We're only getting (at least so far since we don't know if the order options are paid for) about 440 cars which are 60 feet long rather than the 75 feet long cars. Which means that it is more expensive to order more because the length of the R211's are shorter than the R46's and R68/A's. 

3.) I'm pretty sure you know by now that there doesn't need to be direct replacements when ordering new cars. The R211's can be given to Jamaica Yard and in turn, they can send back the R160's so that the R46's at Coney Island can be retired which is called an indirect replacement. 

4.) I get you want to bring your opinion to this which I'm not going to stop you, but there are information a lot of already knew about.

Again, try not to feel hurt by this. I understand your frustration about the (MTA) and their incompetence, but there are other factors involved that you have to take into account. I've also noticed you've been talking about the Second Av Subway line, but chances of that line being completed with at least 3 phases within 20 years (I'm being nice about this one) is very, very low. Not to mention a certain governor wants to make these stations fancy which I don't think people mind but that alone already makes the line very costly. Phase 1 of SAS put NYC on the spot as the most expensive subway line built. That is a bad thing because all we got was about 3 new subways stations with 1 new renovated station that being Lexington Av-63 St. Chances of phase 2 being just as expensive, if not even more expensive is also pretty high. We didn't even get 2 extra tunnels for express service which is going to have issues on SAS if phase 3 were to be in the picture. Phase 1 was in my opinion a failure. I'm hoping the (MTA) learns from this mistake, it should be cheaper for the second phase because of already built tunnels prior. 

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2 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

I'm going to explain it to you in a way that I hope you will understand and try not to feel hurt by this as I'm pretty sure someone already mentioned these before:

1.) Please stop repeating statements in like 3 different threads because you sound like a broken record. 

2.) The base order is nowhere anywhere close to replacing all of the R46's. I already mentioned earlier that the base order alone wouldn't have been enough to replace the R46's on both the (A) and (C). We're only getting (at least so far since we don't know if the order options are paid for) about 440 cars which are 60 feet long rather than the 75 feet long cars. Which means that it is more expensive to order more because the length of the R211's are shorter than the R46's and R68/A's. 

3.) I'm pretty sure you know by now that there doesn't need to be direct replacements when ordering new cars. The R211's can be given to Jamaica Yard and in turn, they can send back the R160's so that the R46's at Coney Island can be retired which is called an indirect replacement. 

4.) I get you want to bring your opinion to this which I'm not going to stop you, but there are information a lot of already knew about.

Again, try not to feel hurt by this. I understand your frustration about the (MTA) and their incompetence, but there are other factors involved that you have to take into account. I've also noticed you've been talking about the Second Av Subway line, but chances of that line being completed with at least 3 phases within 20 years (I'm being nice about this one) is very, very low. Not to mention a certain governor wants to make these stations fancy which I don't think people mind but that alone already makes the line very costly. Phase 1 of SAS put NYC on the spot as the most expensive subway line built. That is a bad thing because all we got was about 3 new subways stations with 1 new renovated station that being Lexington Av-63 St. Chances of phase 2 being just as expensive, if not even more expensive is also pretty high. We didn't even get 2 extra tunnels for express service which is going to have issues on SAS if phase 3 were to be in the picture. Phase 1 was in my opinion a failure. I'm hoping the (MTA) learns from this mistake, it should be cheaper for the second phase because of already built tunnels prior. 

Oh no dont worry bout it.

 

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8 hours ago, Vulturious said:

The base order of the R211's aren't supposed to go to the (N)(Q) and (W) anyways. Why are you bringing that idea here when the base order is meant specifically for the (A) and (C)? Hell, even that isn't enough to replace all the R46's on those lines. I do agree that the (MTA) needs to exercise on the option orders, even if we want to see the R160's back at Coney Island, the (MTA) doesn't have the funds to even order any extra train cars. It doesn't matter what your conclusion is as I'm going to say practically everyone here knows that should happen, we won't be getting the option orders unless they get funds for them.

They will likely get the funds, It's already been said that the house and the newly democratic senate would fund state and local governments plus give aid to transit systems.

I do think it's smart to give the Base order to CI after pitkin gets about 140 cars and get it over with since they're standard cars. Can't start replacing r46's until after the first 130 cars are in. I rather them focus on making the (C) full length first. Have CI retire a portion of their R46's first. For Option order 1, I would have 207th st get the siemens r160's from Jamaica for the (C) to replace their R46's, then CI gets the remaining R160's. then have pitkin get half of the 2nd option order.

 

the R179's are supposed to get CBTC installed by next year, so those 130 10 car units are staying on the (A)

 

But if they want the (A)(C) to be 100% tech then they would have to give the whole base order to pitkin plus give them the 90 R160B's from CI (9833-9922) to make the (A)(C) 100% tech.

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44 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

They will likely get the funds, It's already been said that the house and the newly democratic senate would fund state and local governments plus give aid to transit systems.

I do think it's smart to give the Base order to CI after pitkin gets about 140 cars and get it over with since they're standard cars. Can't start replacing r46's until after the first 130 cars are in. I rather them focus on making the (C) full length first. Have CI retire a portion of their R46's first. For Option order 1, I would have 207th st get the siemens r160's from Jamaica for the (C) to replace their R46's, then CI gets the remaining R160's. then have pitkin get half of the 2nd option order.

 

the R179's are supposed to get CBTC installed by next year, so those 130 10 car units are staying on the (A)

 

But if they want the (A)(C) to be 100% tech then they would have to give the whole base order to pitkin plus give them the 90 R160B's from CI (9833-9922) to make the (A)(C) 100% tech.

That last bit is the more likely option to happen, although them getting R160's in general is kinda unlikely. Regardless, I can definitely see where you are going seeing as Coney Island is having a hard time trying to keep the R46's in order. In all honesty, I thought Coney Island wouldn't be having a hard time with them, then again they did come from Jamaica and then as the pandemic happened and also because the R46's are forced to run more often 24/7 rather than what it was earlier with them being used for late night service shuttle on Lefferts and the (R) to Whitehall.

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On 1/19/2021 at 8:49 PM, Vulturious said:

That is if there is enough for (D) trains to get R160's in the first place and if Concourse is willing to have a swap or not. The only way for (D) trains and also (B) trains to get NTTs is if 6 Av is getting CBTC right after 8 Av. The (MTA) has been changing their minds so often so we don't truly know which line is getting CBTC after or at least I do not know because of how often. As much as I would love for (D) trains to get some NTT's, their chances of getting them are much lower than the (M).

Concourse loves their 68s, I don't see any swaps between anyone and Concourse happening.

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15 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

Concourse loves their 68s, I don't see any swaps between anyone and Concourse happening.

I agree, I don't see the 68s leaving the (D) until it's time for them to retire, but...this is the MTA we talking about here.

Edited by NBTA
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2 minutes ago, NBTA said:

I agree, I don't see the 68s leaving the (D) until it's time for them to retire, but...this is the MTA we talking about here.

The (D) is a Concourse, and West End Local, Sixth Avenue/Central Park West/Fourth Avenue express service operated by the MTA. The R68 is a 1986-88 subway car built  partly by Morrison-Knudsen, and Westinghouse operated by the MTA on the (D) Line. Concourse Yard is a subway yard used by (B) and (D) trains to store R68s, and R68As, also operated by MTA. I didn't say anything regarding any other transit agencies.

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2 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

The (D) is a Concourse, and West End Local, Sixth Avenue/Central Park West/Fourth Avenue express service operated by the MTA. The R68 is a 1986-88 subway car built  partly by Morrison-Knudsen, and Westinghouse operated by the MTA on the (D) Line. Concourse Yard is a subway yard used by (B) and (D) trains to store R68s, and R68As, also operated by MTA. I didn't say anything regarding any other transit agencies.

 

7 minutes ago, NBTA said:

I agree, I don't see the 68s leaving the (D) until it's time for them to retire, but...this is the MTA we talking about here.

I was talking about the MTA. The R68s..are in the MTA. The (D) train, MTA. Concourse Yard, MTA. Anything else I gotta say?

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On 1/20/2021 at 3:52 PM, Stormxx said:

We need 1K cars to replace the r46's. The r46's run on the (A)(C)(N)(Q)(W).  If the mta doesnt have the funds to replace all the r46's, then why are the (MTA) saying that the base order will replace all R46's. If that's the case, the (E)(F)(M)(R) will stick with their 160's and the (A)(C)(N)(Q)(W) will get the new cars.

Honestly I said the same thing you said with Coney Island getting the R211s too, but I changed my mind, It make sense for the (N)(Q)(W) to get their R160s back because they've been using them since they came out in 2006. When the R211s go to Jamaica, they could give up all Siemens' and some Alstoms, and send them to the (A)(C)(N)(Q)(W) and Rockaway (S).  Now that the Democrats are in office, they can  definitely fund the MTA so therefore, all R46s could be retired

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3 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:
3 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

Honestly I said the same thing you said with Coney Island getting the R211s too, but I changed my mind, It make sense for the (N)(Q)(W) to get their R160s back because they've been using them since they came out in 2006. When the R211s go to Jamaica, they could give up all Siemens' and some Alstoms, and send them to the (A)(C)(N)(Q)(W) and Rockaway (S).  Now that the Democrats are in office, they can  definitely fund the MTA so therefore, all R46s could be retired

 

Here was my original plan: 

If both options are exercised and the R211T test goes well, the order would be mostly open gangway. We could see C.I getting the all of the R211A's and their siemens and some alstom units coming back. If C.I were to get 70% of their r160's back, then we could see about 1,200/1,662 cars returning. That would be enough for the (N)(Q)(W)

Now for the (A)(C) , i think they should get about 400 cars of open gangway, and the r179's would be swapped out of Pitkin&207th st yard for service on the .

The (E)(F)(R) should get a lot of the r211T's. I'd say about 500 to be split. Plus, they'd also have 462 additional r160's to help out with service. Ridership is growing, and they REALLY need open gangways.

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1 hour ago, NBTA said:

 

I was talking about the MTA. The R68s..are in the MTA. The (D) train, MTA. Concourse Yard, MTA. Anything else I gotta say?

I think @NBTA meant that the (MTA) is changing their minds so often, we truly don't know where CBTC will end up.

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1 hour ago, Stormxx said:

Here was my original plan: 

If both options are exercised and the R211T test goes well, the order would be mostly open gangway. We could see C.I getting the all of the R211A's and their siemens and some alstom units coming back. If C.I were to get 70% of their r160's back, then we could see about 1,200/1,662 cars returning. That would be enough for the (N)(Q)(W)

Now for the (A)(C) , i think they should get about 400 cars of open gangway, and the r179's would be swapped out of Pitkin&207th st yard for service on the .

The (E)(F)(R) should get a lot of the r211T's. I'd say about 500 to be split. Plus, they'd also have 462 additional r160's to help out with service. Ridership is growing, and they REALLY need open gangways.

Ok, but the thing is that we're in a middle of a pandemic, and ridership isn't even half of what it used to be. 2022 is going to be the year the gangway tests will come aboard, but who knows how ridership is gonna be. Plus, Coney Island is seriously not a priority to get these, the (N)(Q)(W) should just get their R160's back, if not all, most R160s Jamaica took, and give them the R211s. As for the (A) and (C), the R179 4-car should be swapped out, and receive alot of R211s, and only 5-car 211s because the (C) should be 600 feet, and operating R160A-2's, R160B's, 5-Car R179's, and 5 Car R211s. So basically, if Jamaica could afford to without having a shortage, they can give up some more R160s, or Coney Island could get a fair share, and send some R160s to 207th, and Pitkin for (A)(C) and (S).

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6 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

Ok, but the thing is that we're in a middle of a pandemic, and ridership isn't even half of what it used to be. 2022 is going to be the year the gangway tests will come aboard, but who knows how ridership is gonna be. Plus, Coney Island is seriously not a priority to get these, the (N)(Q)(W) should just get their R160's back, if not all, most R160s Jamaica took, and give them the R211s. As for the (A) and (C), the R179 4-car should be swapped out, and receive alot of R211s, and only 5-car 211s because the (C) should be 600 feet, and operating R160A-2's, R160B's, 5-Car R179's, and 5 Car R211s. So basically, if Jamaica could afford to without having a shortage, they can give up some more R160s, or Coney Island could get a fair share, and send some R160s to 207th, and Pitkin for (A)(C) and (S).

I forgot to say that my predictions were only if the order was 85% R211T. Some lines are what it used to be in terms of ridership like the (A), the (D), the (E), the (F) and the (4)(5)(6). Whoever said Concourse is happy with the 68's, they'd be right. But I also think they'd be happy with 100 R211's. If both orders are exercised this would be the situation with the R211's:

C.I- 10% of the 5 car order

Jamaica: 50% of the 5 car order

Pitkin: 30% of the 5 car order

Concourse: 10% of the 5 car order

ENY: 70% of the four car order

207th St: 20% of the four car order

Fresh pond: 10% of the four car order

R179's:

ALL R179's from 207th would go to the (G).

R160's:

207th St: 250 Siemens

C.I- 800 cars: Siemens and Alstoms

If Jamaica has a car shortage, I'd say that the 10% to concourse would go to Jamaica instead.

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1 hour ago, Stormxx said:

Here was my original plan: 

If both options are exercised and the R211T test goes well, the order would be mostly open gangway. We could see C.I getting the all of the R211A's and their siemens and some alstom units coming back. If C.I were to get 70% of their r160's back, then we could see about 1,200/1,662 cars returning. That would be enough for the (N)(Q)(W).

There were 580 R160s for the (N)(Q)(W) before the swap, and 490 were swapped out. 70% of that would be about 340. If it were up to me, I’d send all 1,290 R160 five-car sets to Jamaica for fleet uniformity, but let’s see what happens.

17 minutes ago, Stormxx said:

C.I- 10% of the 5 car order

Jamaica: 50% of the 5 car order

Pitkin: 30% of the 5 car order

Concourse: 10% of the 5 car order

ENY: 70% of the four car order

207th St: 20% of the four car order

Fresh pond: 10% of the four car order

R179's:

ALL R179's from 207th would go to the (G).

R160's:

207th St: 250 Siemens

C.I- 800 cars: Siemens and Alstoms

If Jamaica has a car shortage, I'd say that the 10% to concourse would go to Jamaica instead.

There’s going to be a really small amount of four-car sets R211s, only 32 of them (subject to change). So you’re going to split four 8-car trains between 2-3 yards? There’s also 260 R160 Siemens, it’s best to keep them in one yard.

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17 minutes ago, SimplyMyself said:

There were 580 R160s for the (N)(Q)(W) before the swap, and 490 were swapped out. 70% of that would be about 340. If it were up to me, I’d send all 1,290 R160 five-car sets to Jamaica for fleet uniformity, but let’s see what happens.

There’s going to be a really small amount of four-car sets R211s, only 32 of them (subject to change). So you’re going to split four 8-car trains between 2-3 yards? There’s also 260 R160 Siemens, it’s best to keep them in one yard.

I thought all 660 Kawasaki Built had siemens propulsion, so some Alstom built cars had the siemens SITRAC propulsion and some Kawasaki built cars had the alstom ONIX propulsion? Also I'd think (change of plans) 750 cars should go back because of the (W)'s return. 

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1 minute ago, NBTA said:

Man these 46s are in HORRRRIBLE shape. Every 46 that passes me on the (N), (Q), and (W) has flat wheels in like 5 of the 8 cars. It's horrible.

yeah they're not doing great at all, People bash Jamaica Yard but these never ran that bad at Jamaica compared to CI. Doesn't help the fact that they barely have spares for R46's in both pitkin and CI yards. This is what happens when you put older cars in storage and reduce the spare factor. CI runs the r46's on the (N)(Q) 24/7 vs when they were on the (R) when the majority of the fleet didn't run at night and when they were on the (F) they only ran during rush hours.

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1 hour ago, NBTA said:

Man these 46s are in HORRRRIBLE shape. Every 46 that passes me on the (N), (Q), and (W) has flat wheels in like 5 of the 8 cars. It's horrible.

At this point I'm assuming the wheel truing machine at CI Yard is broke. not too long ago damn near every R68A set had flat wheels, their much better now, probably SMS work.

 

Those flat wheels must scare the crap out of bikers and Walkers on the Manhattan Bridge whenever those flat wheel sets travel over the bridge.

 

The Pikin Yard R46s are still holding up pretty good, 45 years old and still the backbone of the longest line in the system, impressive!

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26 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

At this point I'm assuming the wheel truing machine at CI Yard is broke. not too long ago damn near every R68A set had flat wheels, their much better now, probably SMS work.

 

Those flat wheels must scare the crap out of bikers and Walkers on the Manhattan Bridge whenever those flat wheel sets travel over the bridge.

 

The Pikin Yard R46s are still holding up pretty good, 45 years old and still the backbone of the longest line in the system, impressive!

The R68As have recently had their trucks overhauled with new wheels added. But i agree the C.I. R46s are really running hard and could use some TLC at this point.

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4 hours ago, Stormxx said:

I thought all 660 Kawasaki Built had siemens propulsion, so some Alstom built cars had the siemens SITRAC propulsion and some Kawasaki built cars had the alstom ONIX propulsion? Also I'd think (change of plans) 750 cars should go back because of the (W)'s return. 

All the R160As (built by Alstom) have Alstom Onix propulsion. 400/660 R160Bs (built by Kawasaki) have Alstom Onix as well. Only 8843-9102 (260 cars) have Siemens SITRAC.

You can read about the R160 specifics here:

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/New_Technology_Trains_-_B_Division

 

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