Rollsign Gallery

[Union Tpke]

On the R32 roll signs, I saw a <J> Jamaica-Nassau-Brighton sign. Did anyone else see this and did it mean there plans to revive the old line?

I have seen it

[Javier]

Lance, do you think you can do a R62 rollsign?

[MHV9218]

After doing some research on this, I've realized there were no real rollsigns that contained the CC-diamond. A bit of history needs to be explained here for this one. By 1980, the Rockwell truck fiasco on the R46s was well underway. The R46s were out of service more than they were in service. To maintain some semblance of normal service, at least during the rush hours, any R46s deemed fit for service were run on part time lines only, like the CC. Since the R46s were intended to be based out of Jamaica Yard, they only contained signs for routes running along Queens Blvd. While some of the side curtains were modified to include normal routes of the A, D and CC-diamond, the front signs were simply a cutout of route needed placed in the rollsign window. Here are a couple of examples of what I'm talking about, all courtesy of nycsubway.org:

 

Jay St-Borough Hall (IND Fulton Street)

Taken: 1980.08.15

By: Doug Grotjahn

Part of the Collection of: Joe Testagrose

 

Bedford Park Blvd (IND Concourse)

Taken: 1980.11.04

By: Doug Grotjahn

Part of the Collection of: Joe Testagrose

 

 

Beach 90 St-Holland (IND Rockaway)

Taken: 1980.09.04

By: Doug Grotjahn

Part of the Collection of: Joe Testagrose

 

Just to do a little necroposting, I recently discovered what the TA's solution to R46 side rollsigns was for the creation, too. They printed out a sticker adhesive that adhered (ha) to the Vignelli strip map guidelines and installed it on cars that were slotted for service. It seems like they had zero interest in actually producing rolls!

 

 

 

(houseofmemories802 photo originally, I think)

 

To my knowledge, that's the only post-1979 example of a Vignelli strip map, too. Those mid-1980s rolls the TA did for 44s and 46s just showed the same thing inside and out. 

[Around the Horn]

Just to do a little necroposting, I recently discovered what the TA's solution to R46 side rollsigns was for the creation, too. They printed out a sticker adhesive that adhered (ha) to the Vignelli strip map guidelines and installed it on cars that were slotted for service. It seems like they had zero interest in actually producing rolls!

 

 

 

(houseofmemories802 photo originally, I think)

 

To my knowledge, that's the only post-1979 example of a Vignelli strip map, too. Those mid-1980s rolls the TA did for 44s and 46s just showed the same thing inside and out. 

Jesus,That's a horribly hand made diamond...

[Lance]

It was probably made on the fly at Bergen St. Of course, given the circumstances surrounding the MTA at the time (old cars falling apart, new cars inoperable for one reason or another and a system in complete disarray), they could be forgiven.

 

@MHV: That actually answers a question I had on the modified signs. I didn't think they actually made new line maps for the revisions, but this proves me wrong.

[Javier]

Weren't the old R110A/B strip maps also printed in Vignelli or were they printed in Helvetica?

[Lance]

Vignelli is a designer, not a font type.  The font type you're probably thinking of is Akzidenz-Grotesk, which is the font used prior to Helvetica from 1968 to the mid to late '80s. Since the 110A/Bs were built in the early 90s, the line maps in the cars were likely done in the Helvetica font type.

[Javier]

Oh. My bad.

[Union Tpke]

Vignelli is a designer, not a font type.  The font type you're probably thinking of is Akzidenz-Grotesk, which is the font used prior to Helvetica from 1968 to the mid to late '80s. Since the 110A/Bs were built in the early 90s, the line maps in the cars were likely done in the Helvetica font type.

 

when do you think you will go back to doing rollsigns?

[Javier]

What's up with the Orange on the R110B's?

[Threxx]

What's up with the Orange on the R110B's?

 

Apparently an old proposal to send the to 6th Avenue... I forgot what exactly it entailed but it may or may not have included also sending the to 8th Avenue. Would have probably been a switching mess at @ W 4 which is why the idea was dropped.

[Threxx]

Apparently an old proposal to send the to 6th Avenue... I forgot what exactly it entailed but it may or may not have included also sending the to 8th Avenue. Would have probably been a switching mess at @ W 4 which is why the idea was dropped.

 

Ignore this, see the post on the ~6th page.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/n275lvo2gkuu958/1991+service+capacity+%28ver.+2%2C+orange+A%29.pdf

[WB Bus Subway]

For pre-printed maps - especially those who refer to the colors mandated in the 1970 NYCTA Graphics Standards Manual - it would appear that by the time the first Vignelli maps were published in 1972, two of the colors - turquoise and green - were modified along the way.  The 1970 manual had these colors listed:

- PMS 130 Yellow

- PMS 165 Orange

- PMS 185 Red

- PMS 239 Magenta

- PMS 300 Blue

- PMS 312 Blue

- PMS 354 Green

- PMS Black

. . . but by the time of the two 1972 Vignelli maps, and cross-checking against Pantone swatches of the era I have (1966 and 1973), the 3, 8, E and M would have been PMS 311 Blue (a shade under PMS 312), and the CC, GG, RR and SS PMS 355 Green (a bit darker than PMS 354).  Here's why this may well be the case, besides my putting swatches next to the colors in question:

- When the ultimately ill-fated JFK Express was launched in 1978, its turquoise blue was a shade darker than the 3, E and M - and per the 1980 Graphics Standards Manual, PMS 312 was designated for "The Train to the Plane."

- When the route color formula was overhauled in 1979 (and first codified in 1980), PMS 355 - not 354 - was what was designated for use on the Lexington Avenue 4, 5 and 6 lines.  And the consistency of the green was matched in the 1972 maps with CC, GG, RR and SS.

As well, there would appear to be an alternate color to PMS Black for the 5, B, QJ/J and LL lines:  PMS 400 or 401 Gray.

 

It would also have made sense to lighten the turquoise routes to PMS 311 and darken the green routes to PMS 355 - because there was little if no distinction between PMS 312 and PMS 354 in either dim light (a lot of outer-borough underground stations well into the 1980's), or among color-blind people.

 

I would thus, for Vignelli "bullets," recommend PMS 311 for 3, 8, E and M, and PMS 355 for CC, GG, RR and SS.

 

As for the 1980 color scheme, here they are:

- N, QB, RR - PMS 130

- B, D, F - PMS 165

- 1, 2, 3 - PMS 185

- 7 - PMS Purple

- A, AA, CC, E - PMS 300

- JFK Express - PMS 312

- 4, 5, 6 - PMS 355

- GG - PMS 376

- J, M - PMS 154

- LL, S - PMS 430

. . . with the 8th Avenue lines changed around 1987 to PMS 286, and the BMT Broadway lines to PMS 116 likewise.

[Lance]

***Blows off years of accumulated dust***

It's been quite a while, hasn't it? After a very long break from this project, I've decided to pick it up again. Here's a sneak peak of what I'm working on presently:

 

The above are the exterior side signs for the R44s from 1979, the first for this car class printed in the design codified in the Sign Standards manual.

The full version with interior line maps will follow at a time to be determined later. Stay tuned for more.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Lance

[Ilia]

Nice work on the rollsigns!

I'm also working on pre 1973 R40 to R44 strip map rollsigns for my 3d models for OpenBVE Train Simulator game and of course for my own collection. Even though some things are really confusing haha.

I prefer to make each destination individually first before sticking everything in a single piece rollsign for each yard. Here are a very few of all I finished so far (A, AA, CC, D, EE, F, GG, KK, M, N, QB, QJ). Only  a few destinations remain: LL from Atlantic Avenue to 8 Av, RR from Astoria to 95 St and 36 St, and a few more but I'm not sure about their existence (B from 57 St to 2nd Ave and 36 St to Coney Island, QB from Astoria to Coney Island). I believe they were on the R46 style rollsigns installed on the R40 to R42 in 1977, but I don't know about the original 1969 rollsign, and I didn't see them on eBay.

They are not so perfect because of the arrows but did my best:

 

 

 

[Union Tpke]

On 7/6/2014 at 10:04 PM, Union Tpke said:

WOW! Great research!

Also I have some stuff from the Transit museum archives

\

 

Courtesy NYC Transit Museum

A lot of links have died. This is old, but here is a link to many of them. http://nytm.pastperfectonline.com/advancedsearch?advanceSearchActivated=true&amp;firstTimeSearch=true&amp;page=1&amp;search_include_archives=true&amp;search_include_containers=true&amp;search_include_creators=true&amp;search_include_library=true&amp;search_include_objects=true&amp;search_include_people=true&amp;search_include_photos=true&amp;searchcat_10=&amp;searchcat_11=&amp;searchcat_12=&amp;searchcat_13=&amp;searchcat_14=&amp;searchcat_15=&amp;searchcat_1=&amp;searchcat_2=&amp;searchcat_3=&amp;searchcat_4=roll+sign&amp;searchcat_5=&amp;searchcat_6=&amp;searchcat_7=&amp;searchcat_8=&amp;searchcat_9=&amp;utf8=✓

[Union Tpke]

On 7/7/2018 at 4:31 PM, Lance said:

***Blows off years of accumulated dust***

It's been quite a while, hasn't it? After a very long break from this project, I've decided to pick it up again. Here's a sneak peak of what I'm working on presently:

 

The above are the exterior side signs for the R44s from 1979, the first for this car class printed in the design codified in the Sign Standards manual.

The full version with interior line maps will follow at a time to be determined later. Stay tuned for more.

Wow! I have been waiting quite some time for this. Your high quality work makes it worth it. Thanks again.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Union Tpke
Remove image

[Lance]

10 hours ago, Ilia said:

Nice work on the rollsigns!

I'm also working on pre 1973 R40 to R44 strip map rollsigns for my 3d models for OpenBVE Train Simulator game and of course for my own collection. Even though some things are really confusing haha.

I prefer to make each destination individually first before sticking everything in a single piece rollsign for each yard. Here are a very few of all I finished so far (A, AA, CC, D, EE, F, GG, KK, M, N, QB, QJ). Only  a few destinations remain: LL from Atlantic Avenue to 8 Av, RR from Astoria to 95 St and 36 St, and a few more but I'm not sure about their existence (B from 57 St to 2nd Ave and 36 St to Coney Island, QB from Astoria to Coney Island). I believe they were on the R46 style rollsigns installed on the R40 to R42 in 1977, but I don't know about the original 1969 rollsign, and I didn't see them on eBay.

They are not so perfect because of the arrows but did my best:

<pics removed>

These are pretty damn good if I say so myself. The attention to detail in these is absolutely astounding.

On a side note, I see you use HouseofMemories' listings as well. He's insane to believe individual exposures will sell for hundreds of dollars, but his persistence is a boon for folks like us who are digitally recreating the signs.

[Ilia]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 4:33 PM, Lance said:

These are pretty damn good if I say so myself. The attention to detail in these is absolutely astounding.

On a side note, I see you use HouseofMemories' listings as well. He's insane to believe individual exposures will sell for hundreds of dollars, but his persistence is a boon for folks like us who are digitally recreating the signs.

I know right? This man is crazy, but like you said, that's a great opportunity to recreate those on a computer. I don't know how could I have done them without his listing.

And thanks a lot! A lot of hours went into the recreation of the 1969 strip map signs. I noticed a lot of mistakes during the recreation of the signs by the way, like this one:

On the EE from 57 St-7 Av to Whitehall Street from an R44 (and R42 as well I believe but without the black sides), we can see the N and QB going Southbound from Canal Street instead of northbound to 57th Street, where there is another mistake as well: the N and QB are departing the station Queens bound instead of southbound... The TA went full retard on this sign lol

 

Adding to that, I'm studying the yard assignments on the R42s, and I made a chart explaining what I understood so far. But still a lot of confusion, and I don't guarantee this is 100% true:

 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Lance

[Ilia]

Woops my bad, I forgot to fix the post 1973 chart, and I don't know how to edit replies ( I'm new on the website)

 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Lance

[Lance]

I'll see if I can answer some of the questions you posted.

The RR was based out of Coney Island until 1987, which is likely the reason behind having a RR-only set of signs. The  and  along with the until its 1976 discontinuation all reported out of Jamaica. Obviously, the sign curtains for those routes were split between locals and expresses.

As for R42 car 4665, it's very possible the car was transferred between yards at some point and they replaced the sign curtain as necessary.

Regarding the  and  being on one sign, in 1976, a new sign curtain design was created that included all IND north routes, along with the ones from Coney Island (the AA/B and ).

Finally, I believe you're half-right in regards to the updates made to the ED front signs. Some of the signs made at this time only had the K, LL and M, whereas others had a combined route list that matched the side sign curtains printed around the same time. The order for this set was J, K, M, Special, LL and QB. On a side-note, the was also not a Coney Island line, despite running via Broadway. Since it was only a part-time, rush hour only line at the time, it shared it's fleet with the and later the based out of East New York.

[MHV9218]

Man, what a nice surprise to see this thread back alive.

Everybody's work added here looks absolutely great. Loving those line maps!

Nice to see reference to the odd single "J" rollsigns. Some R16s also ended up with that weirdly shaped J, which is a weird bastard child of Akzidenz-Grotesk with the J end extended but not hooked as in Helvetica. My guess is those were 1973ish modifications to the 1969/1970 sign curtains, not new printings. Nice to finally have the  etc. roll dated, and 1976 would coincide with the IRT orders for similarly designed signs. Transign route signs were printed in 1977 with a black 5, and Trans-Lite route signs were printed in between 1976 and 1978 with a grey 5 as part of a shared order with American Identification Products signs on the side route (again a grey, not black 5). Still haven't been able to date that exactly, but the earliest photos I can find are mostly 1977/1978. 

Recently got in touch with a collector who has original R42 side signs in their original boxes--quite a sight. Let me know if I can add anything to this off of the mylar rollsign roster I've assembled, too. I'm working to purchase / sell off some additional signs in the neat future, too.

[Ilia]

On 7/25/2018 at 10:06 PM, MHV9218 said:

Nice to see reference to the odd single "J" rollsigns. Some R16s also ended up with that weirdly shaped J, which is a weird bastard child of Akzidenz-Grotesk with the J end extended but not hooked as in Helvetica. My guess is those were 1973ish modifications to the 1969/1970 sign curtains, not new printings.

I see what you're talking about, I saw that weird J R16 sign on eBay a few months ago,

It indeed really looks odd. They also did it with the K (from the former KK) where they used the same font but a bigger single letter:

.

----------------------------

Anyways I found that picture a while ago, an R42 with the R44 end rollsign. But now I wonder if they kept the full A,E,EE,F,GG,N,S sign (like on the actual R44s), or just left the E and F since the R42s only had the one piece E,F,S rollsigns when they ran on these lines.

 

 

[Lance]

I don't see why they would've bothered slicing them up, but this is the TA, so who knows? I guess they just grabbed the first sign curtain available for this random 42.

Shifting gears, I can finally unveil the sign curtain reproduction I hinted at in a previous post.

Click Here for PDF Version

Date: 1979

Used on: R44

Printed by: Transign

This is the last sign printed in the '67 route color scheme for the R44s and more than likely the entire subway. Subsequent curtains printed for the R44s would all be done so with the '79 route color arrangement. Also, this sign curtain is very similar to one printed for the R42s in 1977 by American Identification Products. The only difference between that sign curtain and the one illustrated here is the inclusion of the "Special" exposures, which are not on the R42 version. These sign curtains also combine route options for the IND north and the RR. Previous signs created for the R40s and R42s would be separated between the A AA B / CC D / RR routes. However, as the RR used R42s from Coney Island, same as the AA and B, it was apparently decided to combine the route options on one roll, rather than the split that persisted from the delivery of the train cars back in the late '60s.

I'm finally back. Check my signature for my next project.

Watch this thread for updates on my next major project.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Lance

[Union Tpke]

22 minutes ago, Lance said:

I don't see why they would've bothered slicing them up, but this is the TA, so who knows? I guess they just grabbed the first sign curtain available for this random 42.

Shifting gears, I can finally unveil the sign curtain reproduction I hinted at in a previous post.

 

Click Here for PDF Version

Date: 1979

Used on: R44

Printed by: Transign

This is the last sign printed in the '67 route color scheme for the R44s and more than likely the entire subway. Subsequent curtains printed for the R44s would all be done so with the '79 route color arrangement. Also, this sign curtain is very similar to one printed for the R42s in 1977 by American Identification Products. The only difference between that sign curtain and the one illustrated here is the inclusion of the "Special" exposures, which are not on the R42 version. These sign curtains also combine route options for the IND north and the RR. Previous signs created for the R40s and R42s would be separated between the A AA B / CC D / RR routes. However, as the RR used R42s from Coney Island, same as the AA and B, it was apparently decided to combine the route options on one roll, rather than the split that persisted from the delivery of the train cars back in the late '60s.

I'm finally back. Check my signature for my next project.

Exceptional job!