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Phenomenal work as always. I didn't even know this set existed--thought 1976 was the second printing of R46-style white-square signs for 44/46s, not 1979. And can't say I could have noticed the difference between this and the '77 R42 rolls. 

Have to figure out the two dates for the IRT front route rolls in '67 colors. The Transign rolls are dated 1/6/1977, so might be the same order as the 1976 BMT/IND R42 roll you mentioned. But those are the 'black 5' rolls, whereas the 'grey 5' rolls (Trans-Lite) are undated. I'd guess those are a little earlier, since they're part of a pair-order for the side IRT rolls that match this style (Orders 25270/25271, for those keeping score at home). Maybe 1976 all around for those. 

These are the IRT rolls I'm talking about, for reference:

42848504045_5ac4f54249_b.jpg

 

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On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 3:22 PM, Lance said:

 Also, this sign curtain is very similar to one printed for the R42s in 1977 by American Identification Products. The only difference between that sign curtain and the one illustrated here is the inclusion of the "Special" exposures, which are not on the R42 version. These sign curtains also combine route options for the IND north and the RR. Previous signs created for the R40s and R42s would be separated between the A AA B / CC D / RR routes. However, as the RR used R42s from Coney Island, same as the AA and B, it was apparently decided to combine the route options on one roll, rather than the split that persisted from the delivery of the train cars back in the late '60s.

I'm finally back. Check my signature for my next project.

Really? Cause I don't think the R42s could fit the A, AA, B, CC, D, RR all in one side destination rollsign.

 

Anyways, on my end, I finally finished all of the 1969 side destination rollsigns for the R42s, here are 2 examples:

9ezIcBQ.jpg

kOEL1oB.jpg

 

I'm currently working on on the 1973 versions (black with new transfers to ED), and also the original 1968 R40 Slant side rollsigns on the Fan versions.

Edited by Lance
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Nice job with all the creativity in making rollsigns!

I'm surprised that no IRT rolls have been mentioned in this thread. 

However, I decided to create one myself for the R62/R62As:

28837059977_774f726021_b.jpg

This here is the front-end rollsign (not the side one) for the R62s and R62As. A few notable features the sign has to offer includes:

  • The Double-Digit Lines: This was of the few rollsigns to feature double-digit numbers. While cars such as the R1-9s originated with the use of numbers 1-16, and have also used double letters, the IRT has never used the 10, 11, 12, and 13 bullets present on the R62A rollsign. It also features a green :8:, however it has been used in the past for the Third Avenue EL. In essence, the double-digit letters were created to label express counterparts to a certain line (e.g. the <7> would've been labeled (11).) This is the case for the 10, 11, and 12 bullets, which were supposed to function like the present-day <5>, <7>, and <6> respectively. The :8: would've probably been used to differentiate the <4>,  but the 13's use is unknown, given that there are no diamond counterparts to the (1)(2)(3)
  • Missing <4> bullet: On the R26-R36WF rollsigns you'll probably notice that they all have a diamond <4>. It's purpose was to designate certain (4) trains that would skip 138 St-Grand Concourse. However, for the R62/R62A rollsign, it's noticeably absent. It's a bit surprising considering this was before the <4> label was discontinued. 
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1 hour ago, Coney Island Av said:

Nice job with all the creativity in making rollsigns!

I'm surprised that no IRT rolls have been mentioned in this thread. 

However, I decided to create one myself for the R62/R62As:

28837059977_774f726021_b.jpg

This here is the front-end rollsign (not the side one) for the R62s and R62As. A few notable features the sign has to offer includes:

  • The Double-Digit Lines: This was of the few rollsigns to feature double-digit numbers. While cars such as the R1-9s originated with the use of numbers 1-16, and have also used double letters, the IRT has never used the 10, 11, 12, and 13 bullets present on the R62A rollsign. It also features a green :8:, however it has been used in the past for the Third Avenue EL. In essence, the double-digit letters were created to label express counterparts to a certain line (e.g. the <7> would've been labeled (11).) This is the case for the 10, 11, and 12 bullets, which were supposed to function like the present-day <5>, <7>, and <6> respectively. The :8: would've probably been used to differentiate the <4>,  but the 13's use is unknown, given that there are no diamond counterparts to the (1)(2)(3)
  • Missing <4> bullet: On the R26-R36WF rollsigns you'll probably notice that they all have a diamond <4>. It's purpose was to designate certain (4) trains that would skip 138 St-Grand Concourse. However, for the R62/R62A rollsign, it's noticeably absent. It's a bit surprising considering this was before the <4> label was discontinued. 

13 was going to be used to denote skip-stop service on 7th Av, if I remember correctly.

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On 7/31/2018 at 9:24 PM, Coney Island Av said:

Nice job with all the creativity in making rollsigns!

I'm surprised that no IRT rolls have been mentioned in this thread. 

However, I decided to create one myself for the R62/R62As:

28837059977_774f726021_b.jpg

[cut for space]

Nice work! Though that's an R62A, not R62 rollsign. R62 rollsigns have no 9-13 and no "express" reading under the 6 and 7 rolls. R62 rolls are the same as original R62A rolls, which are still installed on a handful of R62A cars (#1811, a bunch of 1900 singles, 1966, etc.). Most R62As received rolls like these in roughly 1988-1989, while R62 rolls were never replaced. Also, this roll would be generally be in Akzidenz-Grotesk, not Helvetica (except for the "Express" / NIS etc. labels). Now, of course, 240th's R62As are getting new rollsigns that look like this (all Helvetica), though I'm not sure anybody has confirmed whether or not 9-13 are included on the new rolls (they've only been used on the (1) line fleet so far). There are also a few extremely rare original R62/A rolls that are all Helvetica and include no 9-13, but those probably number only a handful of cars now. 

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I'm still really confused about the 1973 modifications on the ED R42 sets, from what I dug on eBay and what you said Lance (that I didn't really understand by the way), I believe the secondary sets' front rollsigns (cars 4890s - 4920s) that were assigned to the :KK:, :LL: and :M:, were modified into J, K, Special; and later, primary sets' front rollsigns (cars 4850s - 4890s) that were assigned on the :QB: and (QJ), were modified into J, K, M, Special, LL, QB (like you mentioned). But what was the point of having the :J: and (K) lines using different sets or... 2 different sets having the same route? What about the side signs? It means they would be like that? :

Secondary sets (cars 4890s - 4920s):

57 St-6 Av (K) 168 Street

57 St-6 Av (K) Crescent Street

57 St-6 Av (K) Metropolitan Avenue

----- ^ The ones above might got removed ^------

57 St-6 Av (K) Eastern Parkway

57 St-6 Av (K) Rockaway Parkway

168 Street :J: Broad Street

 

Primary sets (cars 4850s - 4890s):

57 St-6 Av (K) Eastern Parkway

57 St-6 Av (K) Rockaway Parkway

168 Street :J: Broad Street

Metropolitan Avenue :M: Myrtle Avenue

Metropolitan Avenue :M: Coney Island

57 St-7 Av :QB: Brighton Beach

57 St-7 Av :QB: Coney Island

Eighth Av :LL: Rockaway Parkway

Eighth Av :LL: Atlantic Avenue

Eighth Av :LL: Myrtle Av

 

There is something not logic behind the J and K added on the other sets and the LL and M being moved. Either I messed up somewhere or it's simply because TA didn't even think...

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On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 3:37 AM, Ilia said:

Really? Cause I don't think the R42s could fit the A, AA, B, CC, D, RR all in one side destination rollsign.

The sign curtain mechanisms on the 40-42 series were the same for the 44-46 series of cars. It's just that the latter were motorized while the 40-42s were hand-operated. There was plenty of room in the cases for longer curtains, as evidenced by those printed in the late '70s and mid '80s, containing options for the A, both Broadway and 6th Ave B routes, along with the C, D, H, K, M, Q and R lines. I believe the only reason the original '60s curtains were so short compared to later versions was that the TA had some plan to keep the sets segregated from each other, a plan that obviously fell apart as the system deteriorated over the years.

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 3:32 PM, Ilia said:

I'm still really confused about the 1973 modifications on the ED R42 sets, from what I dug on eBay and what you said Lance (that I didn't really understand by the way), I believe the secondary sets' front rollsigns (cars 4890s - 4920s) that were assigned to the :KK:, :LL: and :M:, were modified into J, K, Special; and later, primary sets' front rollsigns (cars 4850s - 4890s) that were assigned on the :QB: and (QJ), were modified into J, K, M, Special, LL, QB (like you mentioned). But what was the point of having the :J: and (K) lines using different sets or... 2 different sets having the same route? What about the side signs? It means they would be like that? :

<removed>

There is something not logic behind the J and K added on the other sets and the LL and M being moved. Either I messed up somewhere or it's simply because TA didn't even think...

If I had to wager a guess, the car segregation plan was still in place when the K-LL-M signs were order back in the early '70s, though they may have started leaning towards combining all of the East New York-served routes into one curtain around the same time, resulting in the ED cars possibly running with two curtain sets. Also, I believe the QB-J add-on modifications were done in-house, which would explain why the design quality dropped in comparison to the professionally-made ones.

On the reproduction front, I'll be sticking with the 40-42 series for my next sign, which should be released next weekend.

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I wasn't planning to make it today but actually decided to. Here's the R42's 1973 Eastern Division side destination roll sign, based of the houseofmemories' eBay listing:

hej3nt2.jpg

 

Edited by Lance
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Looks nice.

Shifting gears, my latest reproduction, sticking with the 40s-42s, is now available:

43280374104_e20127617b_o.png

Click here for full resolution PDF.

Date: 1976

Used on: R40, R42

Printed by: American Identification Products

This is the first front-end sign curtain produced for the R40s and R42s using the sign standards illustrated in the 1970 Sign Manual. In a departure from the previous much larger signs created around the time the cars were originally delivered, these curtains would be similar to the R44s and R46s. To ensure only the correct bullet would be displayed on the front of the train, the originally large rollsign window was modified in the mid '70s, around when these curtains were created, with a black casing covering over most of the window. This can be seen in the following images:

image.thumb.png.e2ec13b0e88a60eea7bb49949435a0de.pngimage.thumb.png.5f1adb5220a95fa9c6817c16599f0bf0.png

Naturally, there were a couple of instances where the sign curtain pre-dated the window modifications, like this:

image.thumb.png.dbf25c6b73c7b838c71486043efe39a5.png

This is one of the last front-end sign curtains with the '67 color scheme for this series of cars. A similar version was printed for the Eastern Division including the J and LL lines, likely corresponding with the side sign curtain printed around the same time.

Our next sign reproduction will be sticking with the '70s, but from the R27-38 group of cars this time. @MHV9218 inadvertently gave a hint as to what's next with the IRT version.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Edited by Lance
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello everyone. Back again with another entry into the gallery. We're sticking with the '70s, but moving to an older group of car classes:

30417014258_4a9d8e1093_k.jpg

Click here for the full size PDF.

Intended for: R27-38

Here, we're looking at a route sign designed and likely created in the late '70s, the approximate timeframe based on the exclusion of the K line, which was discontinued in 1976, but before 1979 where the route colors were changed to their current design. Regrettably, there is very little information that can be gathered for this sign beyond the fact that at one point in time, it existed. Unlike the IRT counterparts, which would be modified in the '80s to reflect the correct route colors, the B-Division version here was likely discarded in favor of new route signs that would be created in 1981 and 1984, likely because it would've required more modifications than simply covering over the original route bullet.

There are design drawings for this curtain, which were used as a basis for the reproduction, but aside from the text itself, this reproduction is more in line with the IRT version in terms of measurements for the components as there is more visual evidence of those signs available. I don't really care for creating reproductions of signs with very little, if any, information available for it (the transfer information on the interior exposures of the R40-46 signs don't count in my opinion), but I really wanted to make this sign for a while now, probably since I made this one way back when. Luckily for me, our next sign, from an even older car class, will have some supporting backup.

Enjoy.

 

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Wow. This is one I had no idea even existed. This must have never seen use, no? The IRT ones I've tracked down in a few photos in the 1970s, and the modified versions stuck around for a while (car 6688 at Shoreline even has one now), but this is totally new to me. I love some of the designations (Rockaway Local / Brooklyn Local) on this, and the design is my all time favorite style (right of the Vignelli Manual). Does the Guadagni book on rollsigns have a record on this? Total news to me otherwise. 

Beautiful reproduction as always, just makes me even more curious about the real thing! 

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Decided to post some more 1969 R42 roll signs.

This time the 207th St and Concourse rolls: (I'm not 100% sure about the 207th Street roll though)

 

j7XJXkS.jpg

taijr6B.png

 

Some strip maps need to be reworked on especially the E line which I'll post later with Jamaica roll signs.

 

EDIT: The strip maps are not high quality because I used a low resolution image for my models, so I could have a good balance with performance.

Edited by Lance
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  • 4 weeks later...
On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 12:21 AM, MHV9218 said:

Wow. This is one I had no idea even existed. This must have never seen use, no? The IRT ones I've tracked down in a few photos in the 1970s, and the modified versions stuck around for a while (car 6688 at Shoreline even has one now), but this is totally new to me. I love some of the designations (Rockaway Local / Brooklyn Local) on this, and the design is my all time favorite style (right of the Vignelli Manual). Does the Guadagni book on rollsigns have a record on this? Total news to me otherwise.

Yeah, the only representation is a concept drawing in the 2nd Guadagni rollsign book. Other than that, you would likely never have known that such a curtain actually existed. Its rarity is probably due to the fact that the curtain was rendered obsolete only three years after its creation. It also doesn't help that it was only an interim Vignelli/Noorda-styled version of the late '60s route signs and not the major change the '79 Jubilee design was.

On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 5:35 PM, Ilia said:

Decided to post some more 1969 R42 roll signs.

This time the 207th St and Concourse rolls: (I'm not 100% sure about the 207th Street roll though)

<removed>

<removed>

Some strip maps need to be reworked on especially the E line which I'll post later with Jamaica roll signs.

EDIT: The strip maps are not high quality because I used a low resolution image for my models, so I could have a good balance with performance.

Oddly enough, the 207th Street A-cars version is correct. At least according to the Guadagni book. However, the book has the Concourse route options as follows:

  • D - 205 Street - Coney Island
  • D - 205 Street - Brighton Beach
  • D - 205 Street - Kings Highway
  • D - Bedford Park Blvd - Brighton Beach
  • CC - Bedford Park Blvd - Hudson Terminal

That's unusual as the order of the end signs usually matched the order of the side ones. Of course, we'll never know unless a curtain pops up on eBay or something.

Shifting gears...

43961184745_d00389c742_h_d.jpg

Full Resolution PDF

Date: 1985

Printed By: Bergen St Sign Shop

Used on: R10s

In the early to mid 1980s, the R10s, the oldest cars still in active service at the time, received an overhaul of sorts. While it was nowhere near as extensive as some of the other car classes, mostly because the cars were on their way out anyhow and Transit just needed to keep them around until the 68s arrived, the overhaul nonetheless improved the appearance of the remaining cars in service. Part of that overhaul was the replacement of the sign curtains, most if not all of them dating back to the pre-Chrystie days. As the cars were relegated to only a few of the lower-use lines, primarily the C, these new curtains, both these destination rolls along with the accompanying route ones, only included a few options. For those interested, here are a couple of images showing these signs in use:

image.thumb.png.6a1ba3ae2d91c7c8a6712cf8cba8ae62.png

image.thumb.png.26739f9f5517360c3827177636b8243c.png

Next time, we're sticking with the R10s with a twofer as they are both small curtains and are from the same car class. Enjoy.

Edited by Lance
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/24/2018 at 12:12 AM, Lance said:

Oddly enough, the 207th Street A-cars version is correct. At least according to the Guadagni book. However, the book has the Concourse route options as follows:

  • D - 205 Street - Coney Island
  • D - 205 Street - Brighton Beach
  • D - 205 Street - Kings Highway
  • D - Bedford Park Blvd - Brighton Beach
  • CC - Bedford Park Blvd - Hudson Terminal

That's unusual as the order of the end signs usually matched the order of the side ones. Of course, we'll never know unless a curtain pops up on eBay or something.

 

 

 

Well the funny thing is it was in order on the R44 side signs that I saw on eBay a while ago. I still have some pictures by the way since I saved them for reproduction:

RwHdh1h.jpg

AVCpcEt.jpg

Probably because these signs had more routes on them unlike the R40-42 ones which had like 2-3 on them so I guess they didn't really care about the order. That can explain why the Jamaica  (Queens Blvd Local version) roll sign's order is: EE/N/GG/S, on both end and side this time.

 

Anyways, I want to start working on the original R40 side strip map signs but I have no idea what font was used, looks like Akzidenz Grotesk Semi Condensed but it's not.

 

Tr2yQQT.jpg

YmBZO3X.jpg

Edited by Ilia
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  • 2 weeks later...

Interesting tidbit that I learned the hard way while working on my collection. 

Anybody ever wonder why the IRT-Vignelli side rolls (white square, colored disc) and IND-colored side rolls (full color) were only on R16 and R17 cars? That's because R16 and R17s have rollsigns one inch wider than all of the R21-R36 series. The signs simply weren't compatible with any other fleets, as they were only printed at the width used for R16/R17 cars. R16s/R17s had their own contract orders for rollsigns well through the 1970s, since all side signs had to be printed in two different sizes: R16/R17 cars, and R21-R36 cars. This is why R21-R36 side routes are contract 14-81-7347, while R17 side routes are contract 14-81-7348. The north/south destinations are 14-81-7350 for R21-R36 north, and 14-81-7351 for R17 north; 14-81-7352 for R21-R36 south, and 14-81-7353 for R17 south. The TA simply never ordered colored side rolls for R21-R36s, so that's why you might see a colored bulkhead roll on an R21 or an R32, but never a colored side roll. Those could only fit the earlier contract cars. Same goes for the centered Akzidenz test side rolls on R16s printed in 1969/1970: those were not cross compatible with R27-R38s, so they never showed up there. I've heard mention that a minor printing of R27/R30 side rolls with centered text occurred, but no real proof of that. I always wondered why it always seemed like R16s/R17s were the only cars to get Vignelli-colored signs--turns out it's pretty simple. 

 

Edit: As soon as I wrote this, I found a photo of an R33ML car with a Vignelli side roll. Well, maybe they chopped the edges off a little! But the rule mostly stands, and the rollsigns really--I've tried--won't fit the other boxes! 

Edited by MHV9218
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On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 12:12 PM, Ilia said:

Well the funny thing is it was in order on the R44 side signs that I saw on eBay a while ago. I still have some pictures by the way since I saved them for reproduction:

Interesting. It also answers a question I had in regards to the Guadagni book. His illustration for that roll had the southern terminal for the CC as Whitehall St and I wanted to know if that was a printing error in the book or the sign. Finally got to the bottom of that mystery. Also, do you know if that sign had exposures for the RR and SS routes?

By the way, love that fake Standard on the Bedford Park Blvd part.

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 12:12 PM, Ilia said:

Anyways, I want to start working on the original R40 side strip map signs but I have no idea what font was used, looks like Akzidenz Grotesk Semi Condensed but it's not.

Since these rolls were created in 1967 (pre-signage standards), I doubt they use anything resembling Akzidenz/Standard or Helvetica. I've been trying to find a similar font myself for this specific purpose to no avail unfortunately.

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1 hour ago, Lance said:

Since these rolls were created in 1967 (pre-signage standards), I doubt they use anything resembling Akzidenz/Standard or Helvetica. I've been trying to find a similar font myself for this specific purpose to no avail unfortunately.

Was just able to trade for a complete 1969 R16 front route (for destination box) in that pre-Standard font, so let me know if I can provide photos for any reference. Not every letter is used there but a good number of them are, probably wouldn't be too hard to create vector forms.

Weirdest font of all is what turned up on the R21/R22 rolls, which were made by St. Louis Car rather than Hunter Car Sign. Totally weird looking.

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On 10/20/2018 at 11:26 PM, Lance said:

Also, do you know if that sign had exposures for the RR and SS routes?

Yes they did since the sign was from the northern division fleet. They even had the Culver Shuttle on them and I was quite impressed! I reproduced it a few weeks ago by the way with all the fake standard details, but still needs more details so I'll post it in the future.

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Nice.

As promised several weeks ago, here are some more curtains from the R10s. As always, click on the images for full resolution versions.

R10 North Terminal

R10 South Terminal

Date: 1985

Printed by: Bergen St Sign Shop

Used for: R10s

Much like the head-end destination signs, the aging and mostly obsolete side signs for the R10s were finally replaced in or around 1985 with these updated curtains. Again, like the destination curtain, this was produced in-house to coincide with the light overhauls the cars received around the same time. Based on the limited exposures on each, the cars were intended to only be used on a select few routes at this point in their lives.

The next sign reproduction will be from another car class. We'll return back to the R10s at some point with the side and head-end route signs to close out this batch, but it will not be the immediate next one. Stay tuned.

Edited by Lance
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  • 4 weeks later...

After a bit of a break, here's the latest entry into the gallery:

32070262388_425a6346ae_k_d.jpg

Date: 1977

Printed by: American Identification Products

Used on: R40s, R42s

This is the Eastern Division version of this sign. Much like that version, this sign curtain was created to be in the then-current Vignelli/Noorda design scheme and to update the line maps and route options for the various service changes enacted since the 1969 and 1973 curtains were installed in the trains. In terms of the exposures, this will be the absolute last time "Jamaica-168 St" will appear as a terminal on any sign curtain as the line would be truncated back in Sept. 1977, a service change that was expected to happen for a while a that point, hence the inclusion of "Queens Blvd" on this curtain. On the subject of the J, this is the first curtain to include "Parsons Blvd" as a terminal for the line, a provision for when the Jamaica line would be extended to the then-under construction Archer Ave line, expected to open sometime in 1981 at the time of printing. The inclusion of the QB route to Ditmars Blvd may appear off since the line was always stated to terminate at 57 Street, but at the time, several QB trains were extended to Astoria and would either return as QB or RR trains, kind of the inverse of what happens today with the (Q) and (R) at 96 Street.

Since I could not find any information for the line map portions, they were drawn as such based on other signs with the information available. All line map transfers are based on the services outlined in the Feb. 1977 subway map.

Until next time...

Edited by Lance
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I'm not really sure there was a condensed Eastern Parkway-Broadway Junction / Broad Street writing. I noticed in the picture below of an R42 with the side signs set to Parsons (or Queens) Blvd / Broad Street, that the gap between the writing and the right border of the sign is a bit smaller than on the one you reproduced, so I think the condensed Eastern Parkway-Broadway Junction writing would not fully fit due to the sign not being wide enough.

Either it was indeed condensed with "Junction" cut to "Jct", or it said Eastern Parkway / Broad Street.

Or maybe it's just me lol

80vtwFg.jpg

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