How will Bronx folks get to the Harlem Line from one of the 4 new stops?

[RhythmNBlues]

If you are coming from Co-op City, Morris Park, Parkchester or Hunts Point and want to take the train to a stop along the Harlem Line, how will it work? 

 

Would the passenger have to first travel north to New Rochelle? Then, make a transfer back down to Woodlawn, (followed by a second transfer to his/her destination headed north or even possibly south)? Seems like quite a commute. 

[paulrivera]

The Bx12, which is not too far (relatively speaking) from the Co-op City or Morris Park areas, can take folks to Fordham, and there's buses like the Bx6 from Hunts Point and the Bx22 and Bx36 from the Parkchester area that can take people to Harlem Line stations.

 

Basically, anyone on the east side of the Bronx who wants the Harlem Line keeps doing what they've been doing, which for most involves a bus. Or buy three separate MNRR tickets (East Bx stops-New Roc, New Roc-Fordham, Fordham-Harlem Line stops) in 2025 or whenever the new stops open.

[RhythmNBlues]

The Bx12, which is not too far (relatively speaking) from the Co-op City or Morris Park areas, can take folks to Fordham, and there's buses like the Bx6 from Hunts Point and the Bx22 and Bx36 from the Parkchester area that can take people to Harlem Line stations.

 

Basically, anyone on the east side of the Bronx who wants the Harlem Line keeps doing what they've been doing, which for most involves a bus. Or buy three separate MNRR tickets (East Bx stops-New Roc, New Roc-Fordham, Fordham-Harlem Line stops) in 2025 or whenever the new stops open.

 

Sure, but taking a bus(es) kind of defeats the purpose of having a "convenient" metro north train stop right there.

 

This should have been used as a connection to the second avenue line instead.

[bobtehpanda]

Sure, but taking a bus(es) kind of defeats the purpose of having a "convenient" metro north train stop right there.

 

This should have been used as a connection to the second avenue line instead.

 

The "purpose" of Penn Access is to make reverse commuting for Bronx residents easier, not be a magic bullet solution for the Bronx's transit woes.

 

I feel like these posts of yours are either poorly informed or trolling (or a mix of both)...

[realizm]

The "purpose" of Penn Access is to make reverse commuting for Bronx residents easier, not be a magic bullet solution for the Bronx's transit woes.

 

I feel like these posts of yours are either poorly informed or trolling (or a mix of both)...

 

Hes not completely off, on the last comment he mentioned the SAS which is true: They intended to aquire the MNRR Harlem Line tracks probably just the outermost tracks for a connection to the northern portion of the WPR at Gun Hill Road to Manhattan on the Second Avenue Subway as proposed in its 1968 Plan For Action. It cannot be done now because commuter rail is at a high demand evident by very high ridership.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Sure, but taking a bus(es) kind of defeats the purpose of having a "convenient" metro north train stop right there.

 

This should have been used as a connection to the second avenue line instead.

Uh actually it doesn't.  Your statement conveys the idea that Metro-North is supposed to take everyone EVERYONE, which is simply not the case.  The purpose of the project is to provide WEST SIDE ACCESS.  Those who need East Side access will continue with the commutes that they've been taking. 

 

 

 

The "purpose" of Penn Access is to make reverse commuting for Bronx residents easier, not be a magic bullet solution for the Bronx's transit woes.

 

I feel like these posts of yours are either poorly informed or trolling (or a mix of both)...

I agree... Where in the hell has this guy been?

[bobtehpanda]

Hes not completely off, on the last comment he mentioned the SAS which is true: They intended to aquire the MNRR Harlem Line tracks probably just the outermost tracks for a connection to the northern portion of the WPR at Gun Hill Road to Manhattan on the Second Avenue Subway as proposed in its 1968 Plan For Action. It cannot be done now because commuter rail is at a high demand evident by very high ridership.

 

The MNR plan will only use the Amtrak tracks. The ROW is actually wide enough for four tracks, as is the Hell Gate Bridge. There's nothing specifically precluding the 1968 plan from happening on a technical basis, but the geographic and demographic realities of the region have changed.

[RhythmNBlues]

Uh actually it doesn't.  Your statement conveys the idea that Metro-North is supposed to take everyone EVERYONE, which is simply not the case.  The purpose of the project is to provide WEST SIDE ACCESS.  Those who need East Side access will continue with the commutes that they've been taking. 

 

 

 

I agree... Where in the hell has this guy been?

 

Apparently, not in your "privileged" area of Riverdale. Riverdale is part of the Bronx, in case you haven't noticed. It's not part of Westchester and some folks need to go north sometimes for work. Not just downtown to the West Side or wherever you have relatives, job, stockbrokers or wherever. Despite whatever the MTA has chosen to call it..West Side Access or whatever, it will still be used 50/50. Westchester and downtown. Take a survey and ask the folks in Co-op City and Parkchester where they are going. I'll bet you anything that you'll hear a lot more than just Penn Station. Many need to go to Westchester and Connecticut. Now that it's available, they will take advantage of it. Previous ridership is not a valid survey because folks only took advantage of what's available, without having to pay 2 or 3 fares. Again, we're talking about the poorer areas of the Bronx. Not Riverdale. If they can take advantage of Metro North at a decent price then they will. Go tell the folks in Hunts Point that it's ok to take 2 buses to the Harlem line when a new stop is being built. Something can be done to improve transfers at a lower rate.

[bobtehpanda]

Apparently, not in your "privileged" area of Riverdale. Riverdale is part of the Bronx, in case you haven't noticed. It's not part of Westchester and some folks need to go north sometimes for work. Not just downtown to the West Side or wherever you have relatives, job, stockbrokers or wherever. Despite whatever the MTA has chosen to call it..West Side Access or whatever, it will still be used 50/50. Westchester and downtown. Take a survey and ask the folks in Co-op City and Parkchester where they are going. I'll bet you anything that you'll hear a lot more than just Penn Station. Many need to go to Westchester and Connecticut. Now that it's available, they will take advantage of it. Previous ridership is not a valid survey because folks only took advantage of what's available, without having to pay 2 or 3 fares. Again, we're talking about the poorer areas of the Bronx. Not Riverdale. If they can take advantage of Metro North at a decent price then they will. Go tell the folks in Hunts Point that it's ok to take 2 buses to the Harlem line when a new stop is being built. Something can be done to improve transfers at a lower rate.

 

Unless you are suggesting that the MTA build some sort of billion-dollar-plus track connection between the New Haven and Harlem Lines to allow the trains to run through, there is no solution to this problem you are conjuring up. It would probably be time-neutral, if not faster, to just take a bus to Fordham or some other station to get to the Harlem Line.

 

Even in your specific case, it's a one bus, one train transfer; the Bx6 goes directly from Hunts Point to the Melrose station, and the Bronx is not lacking in terms of crosstown bus options.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Apparently, not in your "privileged" area of Riverdale. Riverdale is part of the Bronx, in case you haven't noticed. It's not part of Westchester and some folks need to go north sometimes for work. Not just downtown to the West Side or wherever you have relatives, job, stockbrokers or wherever. Despite whatever the MTA has chosen to call it..West Side Access or whatever, it will still be used 50/50. Westchester and downtown. Take a survey and ask the folks in Co-op City and Parkchester where they are going. I'll bet you anything that you'll hear a lot more than just Penn Station. Many need to go to Westchester and Connecticut. Now that it's available, they will take advantage of it. Previous ridership is not a valid survey because folks only took advantage of what's available, without having to pay 2 or 3 fares. Again, we're talking about the poorer areas of the Bronx. Not Riverdale. If they can take advantage of Metro North at a decent price then they will. Go tell the folks in Hunts Point that it's ok to take 2 buses to the Harlem line when a new stop is being built. Something can be done to improve transfers at a lower rate.

Sorry I don't live in the ghetto....    While we're on the topic of poor parts of the Bronx vs. Riverdale, we in Riverdale can actually afford Metro-North service.  In fact there are talks here about trying to get access to Amtrak's tracks so that we can have Metro-North train service on the West Side down to Penn Station, cutting commute times down by 30 minutes.  If folks in Hunts Point can barely afford the local bus, how are they going to be able to afford the premium Metro-North fares?  Melrose, Tremont, University Heights and Morris Heights are some of the poorest neighborhoods in New York City and in the country.  What they have now is sufficient... Local buses and subways. 

[realizm]

The MNR plan will only use the Amtrak tracks. The ROW is actually wide enough for four tracks, as is the Hell Gate Bridge. There's nothing specifically precluding the 1968 plan from happening on a technical basis, but the geographic and demographic realities of the region have changed.

 

I realize that, this is why Cuomo wants to intervene in the issue of tracking rights Amtrak vs MTA where it comes to the Penn Station Access project. Right down to the exact pockets inside the mega-station.

[qjtransitmaster]

Sure, but taking a bus(es) kind of defeats the purpose of having a "convenient" metro north train stop right there.

 

This should have been used as a connection to the second avenue line instead.

please stop the to 125th is more than enough. Just stop rambling.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

please stop the to 125th is more than enough. Just stop rambling.

And aside from that these people can't afford Metro-North anyway, especially neighborhoods like Hunts Point.

[bobtehpanda]

And aside from that these people can't afford Metro-North anyway, especially neighborhoods like Hunts Point.

 

Metro North is significantly cheaper if you're avoiding GCT and reverse commuting. There could be reverse commuters from Hunts Point.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Metro North is significantly cheaper if you're avoiding GCT and reverse commuting. There could be reverse commuters from Hunts Point.

Even so let's say the fare is as cheap as $3.00.  They still don't get a free transfer, so that's still $5.00 ($2.50 each way on the bus or subway) plus the $6.00 Metro-North fare (as low as $3.00 each way), which is $11.00 a day unless they get an unlimited Metrocard, which I highly doubt. These are people that can barely afford the standard fare, so where are they supposed to getting this money from?  The side work that I do generates almost as much as the incomes that these folks earn for a year, and I don't do side work the whole year either, as I only work on the side when my schedule permits.  $24,000 a year is pathetic as a full time salary.  Hell I earned more than that when I was a student in college.  That's what a college student uses for spending money, not to support a family, so I just don't see where this huge surge of ridership is going to come from.

[RailRunRob]

Investments made today aren't just for today or even the next 10-20 years. With the resurgence in NYC every square mile specially within range of transportation is valuable. The questions how's Hunts Point going to look in 40-50 years?. Area's like Mott Haven are already changing. I visited the 3rd Ave area a few weeks back I couldn't believe the amount of new construction and growth. Area's I would have never traveled to 15-20 years ago. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hunts Point become a Bushwick in the next 10 years or even a Williamsburg in 25-30 years. It's super important to have the foresight to make these investment now. For the next 50,75 or 100 years. If we learned anything from history especially from transportation in New York City its planing ahead. How do we know what people can afford? Transportation could be a equalizer possibly allowing for more job opportunities and economic gain. The question here is what will the Bronx and NYC look like in 40 years? the seeds need to be planted today.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Investments made today aren't just for today or even the next 10-20 years. With the resurgence in NYC every square mile specially within range of transportation is valuable. The questions how's Hunts Point going to look in 40-50 years?. Area's like Mott Haven are already changing. I visited the 3rd Ave area a few weeks back I couldn't believe the amount of new construction and growth. Area's I would have never traveled to 15-20 years ago. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hunts Point become a Bushwick in the next 10 years or even a Williamsburg in 25-30 years. It's super important to have the foresight to make these investment now. For the next 50,75 or 100 years. If we learned anything from history especially from transportation in New York City its planing ahead. How do we know what people can afford? Transportation could be a equalizer possibly allowing for more job opportunities and economic gain. The question here is what will the Bronx and NYC look like in 40 years? the seeds need to be planted today.

Given what occurred in the Bronx and the great Moses, the Bronx is no Brooklyn, so if you think that the level of gentrification that has happened in Brooklyn will happen in the Bronx I have a bridge to sell you.  The Bronx has too many housing projects in too many areas to heavily gentrify.  The decent areas of the Bronx are all away from subways and the areas near subways tend to be some of the poorest areas of the city.  This transformation that you speak of would be quite tough because these are the last areas of hope for the poor in NYC, so there is nowhere for those people to go aside from out of New York.

 

From what I've been seeing people moving to the Bronx from other parts of the city are not moving to the ghetto areas.

[bobtehpanda]

Transferring from one of the four stops to go to Westchester (Harlem Line)...forget about the bus. I never said anything about a bus. If folks want to take a bus, they will do so. The buses in those areas suck during rush hours and evenings and generally throughout anytime of the day anyway. So, now there's the Metro North. What is being done to improve transfership to the Harlem Line?

 

Absolutely nothing. There is no feasible track connection that would allow transferring in a way that would be faster than just taking a bus to a Harlem Line station, and that is way out of scope for a project that is only being done because it is cheap and the space is happening to open up for it at Penn.

[RailRunRob]

Point taken. 40-50 years out I could see the changing landscape of NYC pushing some of the lower income population to the Hempsteads, Peekskill's and Poughkeepsie's or even out of NewYork completely. That still doesn't change the fact the South Bronx is A prime location and  under that 45 Minute mark to Manhattan's CBD and around the same to other newly emerging CBD'S like WhitePlains and Bridgeport.  NYCHA was in talks with developers for releasing the land in between housing project buildings in the LES to build. High-rises in between Housing Projects buildings, Lands at a premium. These Projects can just as easy be dismantled and be redeveloped as mixed income. Sweden and Norway people of multiple income brackets one building spread it out. People diversify them selves get access to better education better work opportunities, crime go's down people want to better themselves they just don't know how. It's not going to happen over night but I still see the Bronx coming back. It's been to Hell and back over the last 40 years. Everything you stated maybe obstacles been a permanent blocks. Transportation arteries are just the beginning of bouncing those areas back. While you have valid points on the current state of affairs. Just because is always been doesn't mean it will always be.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Point taken. 40-50 years out I could see the changing landscape of NYC pushing some of the lower income population to the Hempsteads, Peekskill's and Poughkeepsie's or even out of NewYork completely. That still doesn't change the fact the South Bronx is A prime location and  under that 45 Minute mark to Manhattan's CBD and around the same to other newly emerging CBD'S like WhitePlains and Bridgeport.  NYCHA was in talks with developers for releasing the land in between housing project buildings in the LES to build. High-rises in between Housing Projects buildings, Lands at a premium. These Projects can just as easy be dismantled and be redeveloped as mixed income. Sweden and Norway people of multiple income brackets one building spread it out. People diversify them selves get access to better education better work opportunities, crime go's down people want to better themselves they just don't know how. It's not going to happen over night but I still see the Bronx coming back. It's been to Hell and back over the last 40 years. Everything you stated maybe obstacles been a permanent blocks. Transportation arteries are just the beginning of bouncing those areas back. While you have valid points on the current state of affairs. Just because is always been doesn't mean it will always be.

I'm just saying that it won't be quick and it won't be easy IF it does happen.  The Bronx still has a stigma and as a Brooklyn boy when I travel outside of Riverdale and go to parts of the Bronx (i.e. South Bronx by Yankee Stadium), if this is progress, I don't even want to know what it looked like beforehand.  Still looks pretty ghetto and I certainly would not be there well into the night.  Now areas like Woodlawn which I go to regularly now I feel perfectly safe in, in fact so safe that it's hard to imagine that you're in the Bronx.

[bobtehpanda]

Obviously.

 

This notion was already established.

 

But, in terms of PRICING?? What is being done to make it more realistically affordable?

 

If it is a trip you would be making regularly, I'm pretty sure you can just buy a monthly commutation for the first and last zones you would be traveling to. There's not really a feasible way to make it affordable through one-way fares, but even if there was the monthly tickets have always been boatloads cheaper.

 

A bus would only cost 2.50 and even less with a monthly, and given the location of some of the Metro-North stations most passengers would have a Metrocard anyways, so it would probably be cheaper, faster, and easier to schedule a bus transfer to the Harlem Line instead of going up to New Rochelle from a city station, then going all the way back down to Fordham, then going up to White Plains or wherever it is you're going.

I'm just saying that it won't be quick and it won't be easy IF it does happen.  The Bronx still has a stigma and as a Brooklyn boy when I travel outside of Riverdale and go to parts of the Bronx (i.e. South Bronx by Yankee Stadium), if this is progress, I don't even want to know what it looked like beforehand.  Still looks pretty ghetto and I certainly would not be there well into the night.  Now areas like Woodlawn which I go to regularly now I feel perfectly safe in, in fact so safe that it's hard to imagine that you're in the Bronx.

 

I mean, twenty years ago Crown Heights had race riots, ten years ago it had the highest gun violence death rates in the city, and today it has Starbucks. Anything is possible these days with enough money.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If it is a trip you would be making regularly, I'm pretty sure you can just buy a monthly commutation for the first and last zones you would be traveling to. There's not really a feasible way to make it affordable through one-way fares, but even if there was the monthly tickets have always been boatloads cheaper.

 

A bus would only cost 2.50 and even less with a monthly, and given the location of some of the Metro-North stations most passengers would have a Metrocard anyways, so it would probably be cheaper, faster, and easier to schedule a bus transfer to the Harlem Line instead of going up to New Rochelle from a city station, then going all the way back down to Fordham, then going up to White Plains or wherever it is you're going.

 

 

I mean, twenty years ago Crown Heights had race riots, ten years ago it had the highest gun violence death rates in the city, and today it has Starbucks. Anything is possible these days with enough money.

LMAO... So what? Crown Heights still has plenty of problems. 

[RailRunRob]

I'm just saying that it won't be quick and it won't be easy IF it does happen.  The Bronx still has a stigma and as a Brooklyn boy when I travel outside of Riverdale and go to parts of the Bronx (i.e. South Bronx by Yankee Stadium), if this is progress, I don't even want to know what it looked like beforehand.  Still looks pretty ghetto and I certainly would not be there well into the night.  Now areas like Woodlawn which I go to regularly now I feel perfectly safe in, in fact so safe that it's hard to imagine that you're in the Bronx.

It's crazy you say that growing up in the Bronx we had a stigma about Brooklyn and a reputation of not being unsafe as well. I remember times when I visited Brooklyn and came back in one piece my friends where full of questions and amazed. My mom still to this day is still under the impression Brooklyn is unsafe and almost died when I moved there. Is it a mental block? There's not a lot of places I don't feel safe nowadays. 

I grew up in Riverdale, I had friends and family in Woodlawn 240th and Van Cortland East,236 and Webster and Wakefield I used to take the 7 to Washington Heights all the time. as a teen and in HighSchool we had Students from every Borough I had friends from New Dorp, Sheepshead Bay Jamaica, Williamsburg and where talking 1993-94 definitely different place at that time. I didn't feel totally unsafe back then I was everywhere back then. I say all this to ask. maybe reason you feel unsafe where you were sheltered? Did you ever leave your neighborhood? You'd have to know the city as changed and for the most part safer hell driving a few weeks ago I saw hippers damn near in Brownsville. on Pitkin ave and around Rockaway on the A/C. And to answer your question the area around Yankee Stadium has definitely cleaned up. Hell look at Harlem. Grand concourse is definitely up to bat.  You need to explore a bit might give you a better understanding your city as a whole get your hand on the pulse instead just one vantage point. It's quite a dynamic place.

[RailRunRob]

LMAO... So what? Crown Heights still has plenty of problems. 

Crown Heights is one of fastest growing neighborhoods in the city. One of the most diverse and dynamic neighborhoods. even the eastern areas are starting to change. it's change a lot over the last 5 years. You sure have Intel on on areas that you don't visit quite frequently. Can I ask where you get your information from? Your quite chatty to say the least.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's crazy you say that growing up in the Bronx we had a stigma about Brooklyn and a reputation of not being unsafe as well. I remember times when I visited Brooklyn and came back in one piece my friends where full of questions and amazed. My mom still to this day is still under the impression Brooklyn is unsafe and almost died when I moved there. Is it a mental block? There's not a lot of places I don't feel safe nowadays. 

I grew up in Riverdale, I had friends and family in Woodlawn 240th and Van Cortland East,236 and Webster and Wakefield I used to take the 7 to Washington Heights all the time. as a teen and in HighSchool we had Students from every Borough I had friends from New Dorp, Sheepshead Bay Jamaica, Williamsburg and where talking 1993-94 definitely different place at that time. I didn't feel totally unsafe back then I was everywhere back then. I say all this to ask. maybe reason you feel unsafe where you were sheltered? Did you ever leave your neighborhood? You'd have to know the city as changed and for the most part safer hell driving a few weeks ago I saw hippers damn near in Brownsville. on Pitkin ave and around Rockaway on the A/C. And to answer your question the area around Yankee Stadium has definitely cleaned up. Hell look at Harlem. Grand concourse is definitely up to bat.  You need to explore a bit might give you a better understanding your city as a whole get your hand on the pulse instead just one vantage point. It's quite a dynamic place.

I grew up in South Brooklyn, and we all knew where to go and where NOT to go.  Brownsville, Bushwick, East New York, etc. you didn't go near, as they were ghetto areas, and when I started traveling to Manhattan, you didn't go above 96th street.  For me I didn't go above 86th street on the express train.  I've seen Harlem as a kid passing through with the burnt out brownstones and the like, and now I travel up there for business purposes here and there and while it is getting better there are still plenty of hell holes to be found.  The same is true about most of the Bronx.  I commute all over the place, so I have two eyes and know exactly what I'm talking about.  That's why I'm amazed when I hear people talking about how far the Bronx has come because when you see certain neighborhoods and how run down they still are EVEN WITH the new developments, that just shows how bad it was.  I still see TONS of empty vacant lots in the South Bronx and plenty of housing projects, so a few mixed income housing developments are nothing in overall scheme of things.  

 

Crown Heights is one of fastest growing neighborhoods in the city. One of the most diverse and dynamic neighborhoods. even the eastern areas are starting to change. it's change a lot over the last 5 years. You sure have Intel on on areas that you don't visit quite frequently. Can I ask where you get your information from? Your quite chatty to say the least.

I've been around long enough to know what areas are what and what to avoid and when I visit a place I do my homework.  You better believe that even though I heard that Riverdale was safe, I checked the crime stats, visited several times and did tours via foot, and made sure the right folks were living there so that I didn't move into some drug infested, crime riddled neighborhood.  Given how close Bronx neighborhoods are like Marble Hill which isn't so great I didn't take any chances.