How will Bronx folks get to the Harlem Line from one of the 4 new stops?

[RailRunRob]

As I stated its your opinion and you're right it is relevant I'm not saying it's not. It's not what your saying it's how your saying it! You'll take something as simple as saying "Lower income families or area's" and say ghetto types.  It's not RESPECTFUL at all plain and simple!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

As I stated its your opinion and you're right it is relevant I'm not saying it's not. It's not what your saying it's how your saying it! You'll take something as simple as saying "Lower income families or area's" and say ghetto types.  It's not RESPECTFUL at all plain and simple!

Are you kidding me? I'm sorry to spoil your parade but ghetto people do exist in all shapes, sizes and colors.  There IS a difference between poor people and ghetto people.  Some are just poor and some are both, but 9 times out of 10 the two terms go hand and hand.

[RailRunRob]

I agree and certainly understand they do parallel each other very closely. But think about the 16 year old kid on this form that lives in Brownsville, Melrose or East Tremont. Is it respectful to that person hearing Ghetto types? or a statement like " They can bearly afford"? That's why I felt the need to say anything and question you in the 1st place.  I have a hella lot of opinions but theres somethings I don't say out of RESPECT. There are many ways you can state your opinion with respect if you wanted.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I agree and certainly understand they do parallel each other very closely. But think about the 16 year old kid on this form that lives in Brownsville, Melrose or East Tremont. Is it respectful to that person hearing Ghetto types? or a statement like " They can bearly afford"? That's why I felt the need to say anything and question you in the 1st place.  I have a hella lot of opinions but theres somethings I don't say out of RESPECT. There are many ways you can state your opinion with respect if you wanted.

If the is going to be spending taxpayer dollars on new stations when there are tons of communities with other transportation needs then it should be questioned as to whether or not these areas can afford the service.  Heck even the article that I quoted earlier talks about the economics of areas like Melrose.  I honestly don't see what's so offensive.  Either people can afford the service or they can't and sugarcoating the situation can't change that.

[RailRunRob]

If the is going to be spending taxpayer dollars on new stations when there are tons of communities with other transportation needs then it should be questioned as to whether or not these areas can afford the service.  Heck even the article that I quoted earlier talks about the economics of areas like Melrose.  I honestly don't see what's so offensive.  Either people can afford the service or they can't and sugarcoating the situation can't change that.

 

Not offensive because your not on the other end..  Please theres taxpayer dollars being spent in alot worst ways then this. A first year Environmental major could see Penn access is a no brainer. Yeah there are tons of communities that needs infrastructure upgrades but this is already there and in place. No rebuilding or building from scratch ,The upfront costs is nothing to the gains over the next century including economic growth. It's like the IRT not building through farmlands and not making investments a hundred years ago because no one was there yet

market ridership and ect we see how that worked out. They have the data they see whats coming.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not offensive because your not on the other end..  Please theres taxpayer dollars being spend in a lot worst ways then this. A first year Environmental major could see Penn access is a no brainer. Yeah there are tons of communities that needs infrastructure upgrades but this is already there and in place. No rebuilding or building from scratch ,The upfront costs is nothing to the gains over the next century including economic growth. It's like the IRT not building through farmlands and not making investments a hundred years ago because no one was there yet

market ridership and ect we see how that worked out. They have the data they see whats coming.

Well hell if they're going to build a Metro-North station in Hunts Point (which still makes no sense to me) in the name of "economic growth", then they might as well consider building one in Astoria. At least most of the people there can actually afford the fare.

[RailRunRob]

Well hell if they're going to build a Metro-North station in Hunts Point (which still makes no sense to me) in the name of "economic growth", then they might as well consider building one in Astoria. At least most of the people there can actually afford the fare.

Can't say I disagree with you on Astoria  that'll be an engineering triumph id love to see .

[bobtehpanda]

Well hell if they're going to build a Metro-North station in Hunts Point (which still makes no sense to me) in the name of "economic growth", then they might as well consider building one in Astoria. At least most of the people there can actually afford the fare.

 

The main reason we're building Hunts Point is because of the bus connections and because it's super cheap; there's room for platforms. Astoria doesn't have room for platforms and is also a good forty or fifty feet in the air with nowhere to put a station entrance (unless you make it share one with the train, but then people have to pay using Metrocards, so that's not really an option).

[RailRunRob]

The main reason we're building Hunts Point is because of the bus connections and because it's super cheap; there's room for platforms. Astoria doesn't have room for platforms and is also a good forty or fifty feet in the air with nowhere to put a station entrance (unless you make it share one with the train, but then people have to pay using Metrocards, so that's not really an option).

Voice of reason.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The main reason we're building Hunts Point is because of the bus connections and because it's super cheap; there's room for platforms. Astoria doesn't have room for platforms and is also a good forty or fifty feet in the air with nowhere to put a station entrance (unless you make it share one with the train, but then people have to pay using Metrocards, so that's not really an option).

What does bus connections and it being super cheap have to do with it?  If no one is using it it will be a waste, and there are already a few Metro-North stations like that in the Bronx already.

[RailRunRob]

Your 

 

What does bus connections and it being super cheap have to do with it?  If no one is using it it will be a waste, and there are already a few Metro-North stations like that in the Bronx already.

Your missing the point how many people used the 231th station in 1908? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Your 

 

Your missing the point how many people used the 231th station in 1908? 

Not at all... I'm asking what sort of figures does the have to show that this station will actually see usage?  This project is going to cost billions to complete, so they must have some sort of information to justify this expense.  Metro-North is NOT a subway. It's a commuter train with a higher cost and no transfers like the subway has, both of which DETERS ridership if a subway is nearby.

[RailRunRob]

Not at all... I'm asking what sort of figures does the have to show that this station will actually see usage?  This project is going to cost billions to complete, so they must have some sort of information to justify this expense.  Metro-North is NOT a subway. It's a commuter train with a higher cost and no transfers like the subway has, both of which DETERS ridership if a subway is nearby.

 

Id love to see the figures as well no question. It's estimated at 1 billion for 20 Miles and 4 stations. Not a bad deal when compared to the PATH Newark extension or even 2.1 Billion per mile for the SAS. Your correct it's not a subway but if I look at the region as a whole economically in the same fashion the subway links the boroughs our commuter rail roads need to link our city's. Newark, Whiteplains, Yonkers, New Rochelle, Bridgeport, Stamford New Haven and so on so on. I don't think any mass transit in New York has been profitable since the the nickel fare. Hell come to think about it $2.50 is one hella of deal. But it's infrastructure can you honestly tell me we can't recoup $1 billion over 30 or 40 years? Long-term investments usually pay think US interstate highway system

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Id love to see the figures as well no question. It's estimated at 1 billion for 20 Miles and 4 stations. Not a bad deal when compared to the PATH Newark extension or even 2.1 Billion per mile for the SAS. Your correct it's not a subway but if I look at the region as a whole economically in the same fashion the subway links the boroughs our commuter rail roads need to link our city's. Newark, Whiteplains, Yonkers, New Rochelle, Bridgeport, Stamford New Haven and so on so on. I don't think any mass transit New York is been profitable since the the nickel fare. Hell come to think about it $2.50 is one hella of deal. But it's infrastructure can you honestly tell me we can't recoup $1 billion over 30 or 40 years? Long-term investments usually pay

But that's precisely the question that I have though.  From articles I have read, turnout for the Hunts Point proposal was low.  They wanted to have 800 people there, and roughly 100 people came, which is not great, so if there's low turnout in support of this, then how many people are realistically going to use this?  Now turnout in Co-Op was high.  I imagine usage will be fine in Morris Park as well, but Hunts Point and Parkchester are both questionable.  I'm questioning all of this for the following reasons:

 

-Higher fare

 

-Lack of transfer means that mainly people who will be going to Penn Station will use this

 

-Some stations like Hunts Point won't have ANY parking, and we both know that most Metro-North stations are NOT easily accessible, and would require at least one transfer if not more, so is the extra fare really worth that much hassle?

 

-Let's use a neighborhood like Riverdale where cost isn't an issue and there is no subway to compete with in the immediate area.  One of the reasons I don't use Metro-North daily is because I hate having to take a shuttle bus just to reach the station or do an extra 15 minutes of walking.  With the express bus I have a 10 minute walk to the bus stop, and a one seat ride and can simply walk to my office, even though it is a good 15 minute walk, but it is roughly the same thing from Grand Central, plus I don't get a seat on the train and have to pay separately for the service, plus the cost for the shuttle bus, so $10.75 one way during peak rush hour, versus $6.00 each way on the express bus.  It's easy to see which makes more sense.

 

-I believe all of the new stations would not be in areas that would be easily accessible, so when we talk about cost, lack of transfers and lack of accessibility, these all have to be taken into consideration.  Furthermore, we have several current Metro-North stations that see very little usage because of their location, cheaper alternatives, and the lack of frequency.  Several stations only get service once every two hours during portions of the day, whereas the subway runs every 10 minutes or more.  That's kind of hard to compete against.

[bobtehpanda]

What does bus connections and it being super cheap have to do with it?  If no one is using it it will be a waste, and there are already a few Metro-North stations like that in the Bronx already.

 

Once again, the primary focus of this project is reverse commuters. There is already a large amount of reverse commuting in the Bronx; Metro North runs the nation's largest reverse-commute train service for a reason. Of course, not everyone making said reverse commute lives directly next to Melrose, Tremont, and Fordham Plaza; many take buses from points east or west of the Harlem Line to get to those stations to access jobs in Stamford, New Haven, and other job centers, so it's not unreasonable to think that people may switch over to Hunts Point and Co-op City stations once those are up and running, and might also take buses to those stations instead.

 

The case for an Astoria station is much less strong, since we don't really have evidence of people willing to take transit to reverse commute to Connecticut in the way that we do for Bronx residents who already use Metro-North.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Once again, the primary focus of this project is reverse commuters. There is already a large amount of reverse commuting in the Bronx; Metro North runs the nation's largest reverse-commute train service for a reason. Of course, not everyone making said reverse commute lives directly next to Melrose, Tremont, and Fordham Plaza; many take buses from points east or west of the Harlem Line to get to those stations to access jobs in Stamford, New Haven, and other job centers, so it's not unreasonable to think that people may switch over to Hunts Point and Co-op City stations once those are up and running, and might also take buses to those stations instead.

 

The case for an Astoria station is much less strong, since we don't really have evidence of people willing to take transit to reverse commute to Connecticut in the way that we do for Bronx residents who already use Metro-North.

I'd actually disagree with that.  How does Hunts Point have more a case than Astoria, when Astoria residents have been vocal about wanting a station that the hasn't even proposed, while Hunts Point residents turned out in very low numbers in support of the station.

[bobtehpanda]

I'd actually disagree with that.  How does Hunts Point have more a case than Astoria, when Astoria residents have been vocal about wanting a station that the hasn't even proposed, while Hunts Point residents turned out in very low numbers in support of the station.

 

Because we already have people from Hunts Point using the MNRR via a bus transfer? Just because one group is shouting much louder than the other, does not necessarily mean that one group is bigger than the other.

 

In terms of engineering, Hunts Point is very simple, and Astoria is very difficult. Astoria would have to make the case that its ridership would be significantly higher to make up for the order of magnitude in cost difference.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Because we already have people from Hunts Point using the MNRR via a bus transfer? Just because one group is shouting much louder than the other, does not necessarily mean that one group is bigger than the other.

 

In terms of engineering, Hunts Point is very simple, and Astoria is very difficult. Astoria would have to make the case that its ridership would be significantly higher to make up for the order of magnitude in cost difference.

Is that right? And where are these people at?? I'd like to see the stats and what MNRR station they're using because surely it must have VERY HIGH ridership...   Tremont? Melrose?  Morris Heights? University Heights? Very high ridership stations. *Sarcasm*

[RailRunRob]

Is that right? And where are these people at?? I'd like to see the stats and what MNRR station they're using because surely it must have VERY HIGH ridership...   Tremont? Melrose?  Morris Heights? University Heights? Very high ridership stations. *Sarcasm*

Okay look at it from this prospective maybe this will help you.

 

-Hunts point Station  Low ridership + low cost = forgivable

-Astoria Station  Low ridership + High cost = unforgivable 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Okay look at it from this prospective maybe this will help you.

 

-Hunts point Station  Low ridership + low cost = forgivable

-Astoria Station  Low ridership + High cost = unforgivable 

lol... I don't think the wants more low performing Metro-North stations... They already have 4 of them in the Bronx....

[Trainmaster5]

RailRunRob, VG8, and Bobtehpanda

  Your conversation is very interesting and I've seen some good points mentioned but let's not forget that it's the we're talking about here. It's hard comparing existing stations with new/ possible station usage. While the focus has been on MNRR in this instance don't forget to look at the LIRR's experiences to the south. In that case the has reduced service in many cases even though the potential ridership base is still there. Think Queens Village, Hollis, Bellerose, Springfield Gardens, for example. Train services have been reduced or eliminated entirely although the neighborhoods down there haven't lost population. The thinking on that railroad is to reduce the number of trains stopping within the city limits to speed up the ride and improve the ride for people beyond the city limits. If the wants to provide more service on Metro-North within the city limits for whatever reason accept it for now and debate it later. I will point out that if the people in Astoria think that they need a MNRR station I'd like to see them hire a private consultant and have the do it's own study and then compare both studies. I'm pretty familiar with the railroad and the Astoria line at that particular location and I personally can't see how a railroad station can be built economically and structurally that would also encompass the existing rapid transit station. From what I can see the engineering costs could not be justified, especially when compared to the proposed Bronx stations. IF the proposed railroad station could be built without a connection with the line I could see the patrons at this station being charged a separate surcharge ala the IND Rockaway line back in the day and said surcharge lasting for decades. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

[MTARegional Bus]

Well hell if they're going to build a Metro-North station in Hunts Point (which still makes no sense to me) in the name of "economic growth", then they might as well consider building one in Astoria. At least most of the people there can actually afford the fare.

 

 

Why do you even care?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Why do you even care?

Why shouldn't I care?  These projects impact what customers pay for their fare which includes me, so yes I care since my money is involved, otherwise I could care less.

[MTARegional Bus]

Why shouldn't I care?  These projects impact what customers pay for their fare which includes me, so yes I care since my money is involved, otherwise I could care less.

 

 

Well my money is taking care of your precious express buses to your precious Riverdale. I don't take them yet I have to pay taxes on.

 

It's ridiculous that there are lack of rapid transit options for the east bronx.

[realizm]

Well my money is taking care of your precious express buses to your precious Riverdale. I don't take them yet I have to pay taxes on.

 

It's ridiculous that there are lack of rapid transit options for the east bronx.

 

They need to eventally complete all phases of the SAS and start that subway to the Bronx which will solve alot of problems. Not sure if the MTA recieved funds in full because of the strife of spending between the MTA and Albany. The MTA will see to it a Bronx sopur is added past 116th Street a straight norh shot probably TBMs to make the connection. (Doubt they will mess with existing IRT lines not that they cant it could do it with many portions up to Dual Contracts standards, some it it).

 

The new line extended from the SAS will funally fix the Bronx probme. Its a long time in the waiting I know.