(7) line extension to 34 Street-Hudson Yards station opening day saga continues...

[bobtehpanda]

 

We should not be fixing buildings to make life easy for them, we should be fixing them to make life easy for the rest of us.

 

I keep getting told "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", by a number of hard left leaners to justify their opinions. Why is this suddenly not the case. We are the many, they are the few. It can't be sometimes yes and sometimes no. It must be yes or no, period. no wiggle room.

 

And how exactly do you propose we do that? Transplants or prostheses are very hard to find, expensive, or both, and even when a disability is "restored" it never operates at 100%. Are the disabled supposed to sit on their asses until we socialize medicine and start "fixing" people for free? Because that's not going to happen, and even if it was going to happen we need an interim solution. I find it very hard to believe that one of the wealthiest, largest cities on the planet cannot provide a fairly trifling need that every other major city in the developed world can provide at a reasonable cost. (Hint: the main source of cost overruns, or even costs, is not an elevator that costs in the tens of millions of dollars.)

 

As for delay, that is mainly the MTA's fault for not appropriating time correctly to appease Bloomberg and get a train into the station. Bloomberg has done this before; his insistence to open the 9/11 Memorial before the tenth anniversary cost the Port Authority hundreds of millions of dollars in completing the WTC Hub. In this case, the MTA did not include any sort of contingency time to allow for delays in order to make the date look nice, and now the MTA's plans are meeting the reality of the situation. The IG report also notes that the schedule still does not include any contingency time, so expect more delays to be announced.

 

Finally, while I'm flattered to be generalized as part of what I presume is your favorite political group, moral absolutism in general doesn't really pan out in real life. Everything in life is made as a pragmatic cost-benefits analysis. We fund public schools because society's need to educate people is more important than a single person's need to go to the Bahamas. Likewise, we fund elevators because they promote easier access for all users (like the disabled, the elderly, people with babies and strollers, and everyone who is not able-bodied enough to walk up ten stories).

 

 

The original IRT was built in four years.

 

There were no disability requirements which improve access for everyone and add tens of millions to a project's costs, which is nothing compared to how ridiculously expensive the rest of the project is.

 

There were no environmental impact statements which exist primarily to make sure that we don't end up structurally compromising and tearing down entire blocks, which happened with the original IRT and other subway projects as well.

 

There were no alternatives studies. which exist so that we don't end up shoving money into a suboptimal solution, and which wasn't conducted for the 7 Line Extension.

 

There were no public hearings. which exist to avoid the steamrolling of communities that happened in the Moses era, and also literally take all of about maybe a week to conduct. Since when has a project been delayed or canceled over a public hearing?

 

There were no arguments over bidding. which can only happen if there is more than one bidder, indicating that the project makes enough sense for private companies to want to build it. We have moved past the days since the IRT could give any unemployed schmuck a pickax and tell them to go forth.

 

You wanted to build something, you freaking built it. and then dealt with the consequences later, like the depopulation of the Bronx after the Cross Bronx Expressway, the TA and later the city going bankrupt after overengineering the IND, and the poor, maze-like layouts of many of the subway transfers around the city.

 

All these rules and requirements are what are slowing us up. because we have learned from our past mistakes as a society and don't want to screw up again.

 

[CenSin]

we fund elevators because they promote easier access for all users (like the disabled, the elderly, people with babies and strollers,and everyone who is not able-bodied enough to walk up ten stories).

Elevators are good because a lot of people need them, even those who aren't disabled, but other non-ADA installations like escalators work for most (including those on crutches).

 

In practice, elevators and ramps are easy to install, are done while the rest of the facility is being built, and not as an afterthought. It's usually no problem. However, a non-functioning elevator should not bar any brand-new facility from opening. The idea is that facilities should open as soon as it's usable and stay open even if something not working inconveniences some people.

 

 

Who exactly is it harming?

Say (hypothetically) any of the 2 Avenue stations were polished up and ready to go except for the elevators (which worked only few times while being inspected for approval), they should open up anyway for immediate use because it benefits nobody to keep it closed.

 

That's my answer to the same issue with any new station being built in the future, even those that are not immediately popular (like the Javits Center station), because the number of people who will benefit from a station opening is assured to be more than zero, but if a station stays closed the number of people who benefit is exactly zero (disabled and non-disabled alike are unable to use the facility). It's better to benefit some people than no people at all with this artificial scarcity mandate in the ADA law.

[Kamen Rider]

Bob, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. we already have many of the things we need to make "Disability" an archaic word.

 

Four years ago, test were conducted using nano-particles that cured mice of type 1 diabeties. 

 

Three years ago, my own mother was given a treatment, an "Adult Homeopathic Stem Cell Transplant" that not only has been used to replace bone marrow transplants it has actually been discovered to have the side effect of treating HIV

 

And it doesn't need socialized medicine, it needs support. it needs attention.

 

 

 

There are so many wonders of our modern era out there people ignore because it doesn't involve a white cop and a black man...

 

We have a working teleporter (Ok, it only works on light, but it works).

 

We have an optical disk format that that can store over 6 TB.

 

We have a basic design for a Faster than Light engine and a starship to put it in. 

 

AAttached to the same article as the Popsci subject on FTL is another wonder, 3D printing. Everyone is worried about it being used to make guns. Meanwhile it can reshape manufacturing as a whole. We're also on the verge of using this tech on body parts. We can grown simple body parts right now, and in a few years time, machines will be able to pump out spare organs while you wait.

 

And rebuild nerve tissue. A man who's spine was severed can now walk again. 

[CenSin]

Bob, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. we already have many of the things we need to make "Disability" an archaic word.

I think archaic is still a little too soon. We're in the infancy stage of replacing organs and curing disabilities.

 

 

3D printing. Everyone is worried about it being used to make guns. Meanwhile it can reshape manufacturing as a whole. We're also on the verge of using this tech on body parts. We can grown simple body parts right now, and in a few years time, machines will be able to pump out spare organs while you wait.

 

And rebuild nerve tissue. A man who's spine was severed can now walk again.

We're still far from ridding the world of wheelchairs and crutches. The latest development is printing a 3D liver, which isn't going to help anyone hop on their feet just yet.

[bobtehpanda]

The deaf and blind are not going anywhere, at the very least. Even with transplants, those who have sight restored or hearing restored have issues with using their senses like normal people do, simply because during infancy and adolescence the relevant sections of the brain did not develop fully due to lack of use, and it's very unlikely that we would be able to stimulate that kind of brain growth in a mature adult. Then there are people who are temporarily injured on crutches or wheelchairs, and then we have people with strollers, people with suitcases (relevant given that the subway station is next to a convention center), people with bicycles, and all sorts of other cases in which using an escalator may not be possible (assuming the escalator has 100% uptime, and the Fulton Center escalators broke within the week, so that's not an assumption we should be making.)

[CenSin]

The deaf and blind are not going anywhere, at the very least. Even with transplants, those who have sight restored or hearing restored have issues with using their senses like normal people do, simply because during infancy and adolescence the relevant sections of the brain did not develop fully due to lack of use, and it's very unlikely that we would be able to stimulate that kind of brain growth in a mature adult.

Neuroplasticity is a very active area of research. It shouldn't be dismissed as unlikely; it's just not possible at the moment.

 

 

Then there are people who are temporarily injured on crutches or wheelchairs,

I was on crutches for about half a year a while back. Hopping on an escalator was as easy as taking two steps and standing still. The nurses even taught me to walk up and down the stairs with crutches during rehabilitation. Between the wheelchair and the crutches, the crutches got me where I wanted faster even if I were less mobile than on my legs alone.

 

 

and then we have people with strollers, people with suitcases (relevant given that the subway station is next to a convention center), people with bicycles, and all sorts of other cases in which using an escalator may not be possible (assuming the escalator has 100% uptime, and the Fulton Center escalators broke within the week, so that's not an assumption we should be making.)

I was at San Francisco last month with a huge suitcase clocking in at 50 pounds. The escalators were sufficient. In fact, I found it easier to use the escalator since I didn't have to go out of out my way to find the elevators. In most cases, I didn't bother to roll the suitcase over to the elevators even when they were a dozen yards away in plain sight. Leaving San Francisco, I saw a guy take his bike down the escalator with a wheel resting on each step. It's very possible.

 

In most cases, it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

[Woodside7878]

I don't know why there isn't an escalator with its steps long enough for a wheelchair to fit especially those big electrical ones. I know there is special elevators called stair lifts, that should of been built but has an escalator conveyor system. The shopping cart escalator that I've seen in Target and Kmart should be used but modified for wheelchairs both non-electric and electric. So any other ideas that doesn't include inclined elevators that was the cause for the delays for the 34th street 7 line station.

[bobtehpanda]

Neuroplasticity is a very active area of research. It shouldn't be dismissed as unlikely; it's just not possible at the moment.

 

I was on crutches for about half a year a while back. Hopping on an escalator was as easy as taking two steps and standing still. The nurses even taught me to walk up and down the stairs with crutches during rehabilitation. Between the wheelchair and the crutches, the crutches got me where I wanted faster even if I were less mobile than on my legs alone.

 

I was at San Francisco last month with a huge suitcase clocking in at 50 pounds. The escalators were sufficient. In fact, I found it easier to use the escalator since I didn't have to go out of out my way to find the elevators. In most cases, I didn't bother to roll the suitcase over to the elevators even when they were a dozen yards away in plain sight. Leaving San Francisco, I saw a guy take his bike down the escalator with a wheel resting on each step. It's very possible.

 

In most cases, it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

 

In the case of this specific station though, it's going to be the third deepest station (and the only other two stations deeper than it are elevator-only anyways, or have elevator-only entrances), so the elevators are a bit more necessary (and the escalators working on the MTA are never guaranteed).

 

On a side note, neuroplasticity will certainly be easier to work with if the Human Brain Project is ever completed within our lifetimes, but for practical and ethical reasons we're not about to experiment with trying to stimulate brain growth in the visual cortex of a blind kid anytime soon.

[MTA Dude]

I don't know why there isn't an escalator with its steps long enough for a wheelchair to fit especially those big electrical ones. I know there is special elevators called stair lifts, that should of been built but has an escalator conveyor system. The shopping cart escalator that I've seen in Target and Kmart should be used but modified for wheelchairs both non-electric and electric. So any other ideas that doesn't include inclined elevators that was the cause for the delays for the 34th street 7 line station.

 

That's actually a good idea. They really need that to become a cheaper version of the inclined elevator.

[bobtehpanda]

I don't know why there isn't an escalator with its steps long enough for a wheelchair to fit especially those big electrical ones. I know there is special elevators called stair lifts, that should of been built but has an escalator conveyor system. The shopping cart escalator that I've seen in Target and Kmart should be used but modified for wheelchairs both non-electric and electric. So any other ideas that doesn't include inclined elevators that was the cause for the delays for the 34th street 7 line station.

 

The issue is securing the wheelchair and its occupant. Also, you either have to increase the step size by the same proportional amount to keep the incline same (so you can't use them as stairs), or you reduce the incline, making everything more expensive since the tunnel is longer for the same height.

 

Chinese subways use staircase lifts in certain cases, but they're finicky to handle (need an assistant), they're really slow, they take up a big amount of space, and there are still people who need elevators (strollers, bicycles, suitcases). While in some cases it is possible to bring a suitcase on the escalator, for liability reasons this is cautioned against. I've seen a few people lose their grasp on a suitcase and send it tumbling down the escalators at the Jamaica AirTrain station.

[Q43LTD]

Should that 10 Av station been built or nah?

[Sparen of Iria]

Should that 10 Av station been built or nah?

If it had, regardless of how deep it would have been, getting to the Intrepid and the parts of Hells Kitchen I personally go to would have been significantly easier, alternative being Columbus Circle or 50th Street on the IND.

[bobtehpanda]

The announcement of the station set off a housing boom in the area which is still ongoing, just without a subway station.

 

It should've been kept in, but no one wanted to pay for it (the MTA didn't want to and didn't put a single cent into this project, and in the haste to prep it for the 2012 Olympics the City never did a alternatives study to qualify for federal money. At the time, the State was also in danger of going bankrupt, although that is thankfully no longer the case.)

[Javier]

This whole ADA bulls*** is crap. I agree with whoever said the needs to be under investigation. What's the point of turning one of the cities largest subway station into a ADA Station? Does this mean WE have to suffer? It's all because of this ADA crap. If they never did the ADA thing, the station would have been completed by now!

[MTA Bus]

This whole ADA bulls*** is crap. I agree with whoever said the needs to be under investigation. What's the point of turning one of the cities largest subway station into a ADA Station? Does this mean WE have to suffer? It's all because of this ADA crap. If they never did the ADA thing, the station would have been completed by now!

 

First of all, when has the ever completed a mega project on time ? Almost all of the recent mega projects were all delayed by at least a year or two. Look at East Side Access. That should have been almost done by now. By the time that's completed, I will have graduated college.

 

Second of all, as Fresh Pond stated, every new subway station has to have ADA accessibility. We can't just ignore handicapped people. A lawsuit would be immediate if the station were to open now without the elevators. You never know, this "ADA crap" could apply to you one day, when you're up in age.

 

Third of all, why are you so impatient ? You really can't just wait. Is this station opening that important to you that you don't give any regards to our fellow handicapped citizens. The station will open when everything is in a safe operational state.

[Priincenene]

Besides the major reasons of the delay, everything else looks pretty good as I have seen the 34th St Station and it looks flawless

[CenSin]

This whole ADA bulls*** is crap. I agree with whoever said the needs to be under investigation. What's the point of turning one of the cities largest subway station into a ADA Station? Does this mean WE have to suffer? It's all because of this ADA crap. If they never did the ADA thing, the station would have been completed by now!

Reread the whole thread again. ADA was the problem about 4 months ago.

[Javier]

The Tunnel was finished before schedule.

Actually, that's still the problem now. I asked one of the MTA employees and he said it was delayed because of elevators/escalators/etc.

[w8Hou]

The Tunnel was finished before schedule.

You can't compare the Montague tunnel to a new line extension.

[Javier]

True.

[qjtransitmaster]

Bob, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. we already have many of the things we need to make "Disability" an archaic word.

 

Four years ago, test were conducted using nano-particles that cured mice of type 1 diabeties. 

 

Three years ago, my own mother was given a treatment, an "Adult Homeopathic Stem Cell Transplant" that not only has been used to replace bone marrow transplants it has actually been discovered to have the side effect of treating HIV

 

And it doesn't need socialized medicine, it needs support. it needs attention.

 

 

 

There are so many wonders of our modern era out there people ignore because it doesn't involve a white cop and a black man...

 

We have a working teleporter (Ok, it only works on light, but it works).

 

We have an optical disk format that that can store over 6 TB.

 

We have a basic design for a Faster than Light engine and a starship to put it in. 

 

AAttached to the same article as the Popsci subject on FTL is another wonder, 3D printing. Everyone is worried about it being used to make guns. Meanwhile it can reshape manufacturing as a whole. We're also on the verge of using this tech on body parts. We can grown simple body parts right now, and in a few years time, machines will be able to pump out spare organs while you wait.

 

And rebuild nerve tissue. A man who's spine was severed can now walk again.

 

 OWNED!!!! NICE 

The deaf and blind are not going anywhere, at the very least. Even with transplants, those who have sight restored or hearing restored have issues with using their senses like normal people do, simply because during infancy and adolescence the relevant sections of the brain did not develop fully due to lack of use, and it's very unlikely that we would be able to stimulate that kind of brain growth in a mature adult. Then there are people who are temporarily injured on crutches or wheelchairs, and then we have people with strollers, people with suitcases (relevant given that the subway station is next to a convention center), people with bicycles, and all sorts of other cases in which using an escalator may not be possible (assuming the escalator has 100% uptime, and the Fulton Center escalators broke within the week, so that's not an assumption we should be making.)

you forgot about the bionic eye so yes even blindness can be cured.

[bobtehpanda]

 OWNED!!!! NICE  you forgot about the bionic eye so yes even blindness can be cured.

 

Even with eyesight restored, blind people who were born blind do not have the brain capacity necessary to, among other things, have depth perception, which is fairly important if you're going to take ten flights of stairs down to a platform.

 

Next time, try to develop a sense of reading comprehension and actually read the entire dead thread which you just bumped.

[MHV9218]

There are so many wonders of our modern era out there people ignore because it doesn't involve a white cop and a black man...

 

 

What a lame and ignorant false equivalency. They should give out summonses for bastardizations of the English language like that.

[CenSin]

What a lame and ignorant false equivalency. They should give out summonses for bastardizations of the English language like that.

You need a punching bag.

[GojiMet86]

Bob, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. we already have many of the things we need to make "Disability" an archaic word.

 

Four years ago, test were conducted using nano-particles that cured mice of type 1 diabeties. 

 

Three years ago, my own mother was given a treatment, an "Adult Homeopathic Stem Cell Transplant" that not only has been used to replace bone marrow transplants it has actually been discovered to have the side effect of treating HIV

 

And it doesn't need socialized medicine, it needs support. it needs attention.

 

 

 

There are so many wonders of our modern era out there people ignore because it doesn't involve a white cop and a black man...

 

We have a working teleporter (Ok, it only works on light, but it works).

 

We have an optical disk format that that can store over 6 TB.

 

We have a basic design for a Faster than Light engine and a starship to put it in. 

 

AAttached to the same article as the Popsci subject on FTL is another wonder, 3D printing. Everyone is worried about it being used to make guns. Meanwhile it can reshape manufacturing as a whole. We're also on the verge of using this tech on body parts. We can grown simple body parts right now, and in a few years time, machines will be able to pump out spare organs while you wait.

 

And rebuild nerve tissue. A man who's spine was severed can now walk again. 

 

You had to bring in white cops and black people into a thread about the 7 Train extension because?...