Amtrak Empire trains and LIRR push pull trains in and out of Penn Station

[46Dover 508]

When the Amtrak Empire trains come out of Sunnyside Yard and go to Penn Station, they use a single P32ACDM unit. But when the LIRR trains come through with its Dual Mode trains, they have engines on both ends. I thought steep grades would be an issue in the tunnels for the Amtrak units. How do they run through?

[HSRR 4]

It comes down to horsepower.

 

LIRR uses EMD DE30AC that produce barely 2,400 horse power when running on the third rail and can't run for long on electric without over heating.

 

Amtrak uses P32ACDM which produce 3,200 hp while running on the third rail.

 

The LIRR EMD's can't pull those longer sets while running on third rail. The shorter sets are also affected by large gaps in the third rail.

[46Dover 508]

It comes down to horsepower.

 

LIRR uses EMD DE30AC that produce barely 2,400 horse power when running on the third rail and can't run for long on electric without over heating.

 

Amtrak uses P32ACDM which produce 3,200 hp while running on the third rail.

 

The LIRR EMD's can't pull those longer sets while running on third rail. The shorter sets are also affected by large gaps in the third rail.

Wow I thought the LIRR DMs were 3000 HP. Why such a low output differential between the two engines?

[trainfan22 1,160]

They don't use the cab cars on the LIRR DM into NYP cause the engineer can't tell when the engine is over a 3rd rail gap, having a engine on on both ends of an LIRR train reduces the chance of the train gapping out.

 

There's no cab cars on Amtrak Empire trains so its not an issue there. Don't see why the grades would be an issue, empire trains are rather short and the LSL is cut in half at Albany. the empire connection seems like a steeper climb and those Amtrak Dual Modes climb it daily.

[HSRR 4]

Wow I thought the LIRR DMs were 3000 HP. Why such a low output differential between the two engines?

The DMs while running from diesel are 3000 hp, running from the third rail the hp is greatly reduced and they can't run on the third rail at high speeds or for a long time.  The LIRR modified them and made matters worse.

[Art Vandelay 783]

My suspicion is that the Gap issue is simply an excuse given to mandate double engines due to the abysmal reliability of the DM30ACs. Gapping is not a serious problem. If a train gaps out, start up the diesel, turn it off when off the gap. If you cannot reliably turn on the diesel engine, such becomes a substantially more serious problem. 

[Fan Railer 1,443]

Contrary to HSRR's post, the DM30AC was designed to operate on 3rd rail power for extended periods of time, while the P32AC-DM is only designed to be drawing traction power from 3rd rail for about 10 minutes (depending on what notch the locomotive is in). DM30ACs heading into Penn Station usually make the mode change from diesel to electric somewhere in between Jamaica and Harold Interlocking, depending on the engineer, and the mode change from electric to diesel on outbound trains occurs in the same area. Electric mode rating @rail for both the P32 and the DM30 are somewhere around below the advertised gross HP of 3000 since you always have HEP load requirements that leach off of the main electrical bus.

[Amtrak7 427]

Contrary to HSRR's post, the DM30AC was designed to operate on 3rd rail power for extended periods of time, while the P32AC-DM is only designed to be drawing traction power from 3rd rail for about 10 minutes (depending on what notch the locomotive is in). DM30ACs heading into Penn Station usually make the mode change from diesel to electric somewhere in between Jamaica and Harold Interlocking, depending on the engineer, and the mode change from electric to diesel on outbound trains occurs in the same area. Electric mode rating @rail for both the P32 and the DM30 are somewhere around below the advertised gross HP of 3000 since you always have HEP load requirements that leach off of the main electrical bus.

 

Westbounds must change before Jamaica (at VALLEY on the South Shore, either NASSAU or QUEENS on the Main Line), so that if something goes wrong, it's easy for the train to be canceled at Jamaica without causing too much inconvenience.

 

Eastbounds change at Woodside.

[HSRR 4]

Contrary to HSRR's post, the DM30AC was designed to operate on 3rd rail power for extended periods of time, while the P32AC-DM is only designed to be drawing traction power from 3rd rail for about 10 minutes (depending on what notch the locomotive is in). DM30ACs heading into Penn Station usually make the mode change from diesel to electric somewhere in between Jamaica and Harold Interlocking, depending on the engineer, and the mode change from electric to diesel on outbound trains occurs in the same area. Electric mode rating @rail for both the P32 and the DM30 are somewhere around below the advertised gross HP of 3000 since you always have HEP load requirements that leach off of the main electrical bus.

 

Have to completely forgotten what the Inspector Generals findings on the DM30AC vs P32? All of those claims of the MTA and EMD were proven false. EMD lied and continued to lie about the capabilities of the DM30AC. They were rated at 2,888 hp under electric, but in reality produced 2,400hp when actual hep loads were applied. The DM30AC could never and will never reach max operating speeds (80 mph) under electric only and can't spend much time in electric. Also the acceleration and braking times were fabricated. The LIRR modified the DM30AC to bring it back in line with the specs, but that never panned out correctly, infact it further hindered the DM30AC The IG findings didn't come out until after the DM30AC were delivered, if it would have come out sooner, EMD would not have gotten that contract. Jamaica to Penn is 12 miles at no higher that 40mph. If the EMD's were designed to run on electric solely then the diesel engine wouldn't have to be fired until far east of Jamaica, depending on line. The cannonball should if the  DM30AC was up to snuff to run on electric from penn to babylon.

 

The LIRR has shown favoritism to EMD for a long time and it has bite them in the rear end. 12 miles is a lot you might think, but NJT ALP's run at full speed (over 80 mph) on either electric or diesel for more than 30 miles. It could be pantograph vs third rail, but third rail provides more than enough power to motivate a heavy trainset.

Edited December 26, 2014 by HSRR

[46Dover 508]

Have to completely forgotten what the Inspector Generals findings on the DM30AC vs P32? All of those claims of the MTA and EMD were proven false. EMD lied and continued to lie about the capabilities of the DM30AC. They were rated at 2,888 hp under electric, but in reality produced 2,400hp when actual hep loads were applied. The DM30AC could never and will never reach max operating speeds (80 mph) under electric only and can't spend much time in electric. Also the acceleration and braking times were fabricated. The LIRR modified the DM30AC to bring it back in line with the specs, but that never panned out correctly, infact it further hindered the DM30AC The IG findings didn't come out until after the DM30AC were delivered, if it would have come out sooner, EMD would not have gotten that contract. Jamaica to Penn is 12 miles at no higher that 40mph. If the EMD's were designed to run on electric solely then the diesel engine wouldn't have to be fired until far east of Jamaica, depending on line. The cannonball should if the  DM30AC was up to snuff to run on electric from penn to babylon.

 

The LIRR has shown favoritism to EMD for a long time and it has bite them in the rear end. 12 miles is a lot you might think, but NJT ALP's run at full speed (over 80 mph) on either electric or diesel for more than 30 miles. It could be pantograph vs third rail, but third rail provides more than enough power to motivate a heavy trainset.

Inspector General??? Wow. LIRR should've sued the pants off EMD

[theaveragejoe 277]

Have to completely forgotten what the Inspector Generals findings on the DM30AC vs P32? All of those claims of the MTA and EMD were proven false. EMD lied and continued to lie about the capabilities of the DM30AC. They were rated at 2,888 hp under electric, but in reality produced 2,400hp when actual hep loads were applied. The DM30AC could never and will never reach max operating speeds (80 mph) under electric only and can't spend much time in electric. Also the acceleration and braking times were fabricated. The LIRR modified the DM30AC to bring it back in line with the specs, but that never panned out correctly, infact it further hindered the DM30AC The IG findings didn't come out until after the DM30AC were delivered, if it would have come out sooner, EMD would not have gotten that contract. Jamaica to Penn is 12 miles at no higher that 40mph. If the EMD's were designed to run on electric solely then the diesel engine wouldn't have to be fired until far east of Jamaica, depending on line. The cannonball should if the  DM30AC was up to snuff to run on electric from penn to babylon.

 

The LIRR has shown favoritism to EMD for a long time and it has bite them in the rear end. 12 miles is a lot you might think, but NJT ALP's run at full speed (over 80 mph) on either electric or diesel for more than 30 miles. It could be pantograph vs third rail, but third rail provides more than enough power to motivate a heavy trainset.

 

If that was the case then that was LIRR own fault for taking delivery of the DM30AC fleet.

[qjtransitmaster 216]

Why can´t they sue EMD now?

[HSRR 4]

Why can´t they sue EMD now?

The report stopped just short of calling it fraud, but stated that the specs, tests and criteria were seriously flawed. GE could have sued, but GE didn't want that fight right after being sued by NYS for polluting the Hudson. I'm trying to dig up the report, but lord the IG website has no reports from before 2008 and is pretty terrible.

 

The LIRR got the DM30AC for fairly cheap. It's a decent loco, but far from great.

[Fan Railer 1,443]

Have to completely forgotten what the Inspector Generals findings on the DM30AC vs P32? All of those claims of the MTA and EMD were proven false. EMD lied and continued to lie about the capabilities of the DM30AC. They were rated at 2,888 hp under electric, but in reality produced 2,400hp when actual hep loads were applied. The DM30AC could never and will never reach max operating speeds (80 mph) under electric only and can't spend much time in electric. Also the acceleration and braking times were fabricated. The LIRR modified the DM30AC to bring it back in line with the specs, but that never panned out correctly, infact it further hindered the DM30AC The IG findings didn't come out until after the DM30AC were delivered, if it would have come out sooner, EMD would not have gotten that contract. Jamaica to Penn is 12 miles at no higher that 40mph. If the EMD's were designed to run on electric solely then the diesel engine wouldn't have to be fired until far east of Jamaica, depending on line. The cannonball should if the  DM30AC was up to snuff to run on electric from penn to babylon.

 

The LIRR has shown favoritism to EMD for a long time and it has bite them in the rear end. 12 miles is a lot you might think, but NJT ALP's run at full speed (over 80 mph) on either electric or diesel for more than 30 miles. It could be pantograph vs third rail, but third rail provides more than enough power to motivate a heavy trainset.

I've never actually read that report... You should link it here for our reference if possible, and try to type with a little more attention to spelling and grammar.

[qjtransitmaster 216]

I've never actually read that report... You should link it here for our reference if possible, and try to type with a little more attention to spelling and grammar.

damn dude why so harsh?

[HSRR 4]

I've never actually read that report... You should link it here for our reference if possible, and try to type with a little more attention to spelling and grammar.

 

If you are going to be nasty, then I will not contribute to the conversation. Maybe you should pay attention to spelling and grammar in your posts. They are far from Pulitzer prize winning.

 

The links I have found are seem to be dead, there are a couple of threads from railroad.net and yahoo that say the same thing and have dead links to the IG report.

[Fan Railer 1,443]

If you are going to be nasty, then I will not contribute to the conversation. Maybe you should pay attention to spelling and grammar in your posts. They are far from Pulitzer prize winning.

 

The links I have found are seem to be dead, there are a couple of threads from railroad.net and yahoo that say the same thing and have dead links to the IG report.

My spelling and grammar are just fine, thank you very much. I find it funny you think that they aren't. It's nothing personal; I'll gladly call out anyone whose post contains sections of text that confuse me on the sole basis of missing punctuation or *interesting* word choice.

 

If the links are dead, then that's it; there's nothing more to be said about it.

[HSRR 4]

My spelling and grammar are just fine, thank you very much. I find it funny you think that they aren't. It's nothing personal; I'll gladly call out anyone whose post contains sections of text that confuse me on the sole basis of missing punctuation or *interesting* word choice.

 

If the links are dead, then that's it; there's nothing more to be said about it.

It's nothing personal, your grammar is basic.  See spot. See spot run. If you are going to "call out" someone for a forum post,  you should have better tact and a better sentence structure than a third grader. I'll gladly call out anyone who is an over pretentiousness grammar Nazi that resorts to that because he was wrong. Move on and mature.

Edited January 5, 2015 by HSRR

[theaveragejoe 277]

Why can´t they sue EMD now?

 

Cause for first the warranties are finished for the units. Second LIRR is suppost to test them when the arrive on the property before taking ownership from EMD. If they did im sure they would have known the problems that they had. LIRR was just in a rush to get new power into service then and rushed the testing period. Also I heard that LIRR did some mods to them after that void the warranties from EMD. 

[46Dover 508]

Cause for first the warranties are finished for the units. Second LIRR is suppost to test them when the arrive on the property before taking ownership from EMD. If they did im sure they would have known the problems that they had. LIRR was just in a rush to get new power into service then and rushed the testing period. Also I heard that LIRR did some mods to them after that void the warranties from EMD.

 

I'm really getting tired of stupid people in control of things.....

[Joel Up Front 788]

It's nothing personal, your grammar is basic.  See spot. See spot run. If you are going to "call out" someone for a forum post,  you should have better tact and a better sentence structure than a third grader. I'll gladly call out anyone who is an over pretentiousness grammar

 

Stopped reading there.  There was nothing wrong with his grammar at all.  Yours, though...

[qjtransitmaster 216]

It's nothing personal, your grammar is basic.  See spot. See spot run. If you are going to "call out" someone for a forum post,  you should have better tact and a better sentence structure than a third grader. I'll gladly call out anyone who is an over pretentiousness grammar Nazi that resorts to that because he was wrong. Move on and mature.

  

My spelling and grammar are just fine, thank you very much. I find it funny you think that they aren't. It's nothing personal; I'll gladly call out anyone whose post contains sections of text that confuse me on the sole basis of missing punctuation or *interesting* word choice.

 

If the links are dead, then that's it; there's nothing more to be said about it.

seriously children you grammar is THAT serious to the point of fighting LOL @ these people.