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BxM4Woodlawn

Which Routes Deserve Some Artics?

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All of you know many buses get jam packed today, with barely any standing room left, let alone seating. Do you think adding artics to more routes would solve some of the problems? Which routes in your mind need them the most?

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All of you know many buses get jam packed today, with barely any standing room left, let alone seating. Do you think adding artics to more routes would solve some of the problems? Which routes in your mind need them the most?

Bold- That does not sufficiently indicate the need for higher capacity (i.e. artics). Crowding can also be an indicator of unreliability which is what I tend to attribute it to. If *insert some reason* causes conditions where 1 bus has to pick up the loads that would be reserved for 2 if things were running like clockwork that 1 bus is going to be packed. That doesn't mean that the scheduled service is burdened enough to indicate the need for more capacity because those other buses could very well be running empty (or with seating/standing room to spare) in the opposite direction or on a different segment of the route. Also if the schedule service runs relatively infrequently riders would benefit much more from an added bus than a bus that fits more people. 

 

Also to add to this bus crowding is a lot more dynamic (and sensitive to factors other than the mere number of people seeking the service) than subway crowding is. If you want an explanation into that concept I can provide one but for the sake of my time and the length of this response I will save it.

 

Italics- I can say from my Bx12 Select experience that I've experienced plenty of buses that fit the mode you describe with quite a few of them having standees that couldn't make it inside the white line at the front. However, just yesterday I've experienced a couple of eastbound trips enter Pelham/WPR close to empty (a result of insane bunching). The numbers tell us the Bx12 is the busiest route so the first thought is to think that every single bus is jam packed the whole way. That is far from the truth. What you end up getting is a huge variance in crowding with a couple of trips being close to empty, some being mildly crowded and others sardine packed. This route uses artics for crying out loud.

 

In fact i'll go as far to say if artics were to magically solve the crowding issues of any route they're newly placed on that route shouldn't be using them. As much as you may not want to hear this, packed buses are just a part of a busy bus system. Trying to wipe all of them away is impossible to do given reliability issues on many routes and the methods of attempting to do such are hardly cost efficient. 

 

To sum up: NO MORE ARTICS! We have enough of them already and most of what we have should not be running on the routes they are.

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Bx6 during Rush Hours...

Off-peak too... Those buses are crush loaded in the summertime past the white line.  I'm done in the South Bronx after next week, but will be down there once a twice a month for tutoring, and during those times I'll take Metro-North in.  161st street is just blazing, and the walk from the BxM4 can be unbearable.  They need some damn trees along the street.  Really ridiculous.  That combined with the hills is why everyone takes the bus.  I actually don't mind walking down there when it's cold, but not during the summertime.

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Off-peak too... Those buses are crush loaded in the summertime past the white line.  I'm done in the South Bronx after next week, but will be down there once a twice a month for tutoring, and during those times I'll take Metro-North in.  161st street is just blazing, and the walk from the BxM4 can be unbearable.  They need some damn trees along the street.  Really ridiculous.  That combined with the hills is why everyone takes the bus.  I actually don't mind walking down there when it's cold, but not during the summertime.

 

Maybe it's me but the Bx6 I take during off peak aren't crushed. But during Rush hour it's horrendous... especially the PM peak.

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Maybe it's me but the Bx6 I take during off peak aren't crushed. But during Rush hour it's horrendous... especially the PM peak.

What time do you take it off-peak? During the nights it can be tolerable but then again I ride it for 5 minutes if that when I do ride it. I don't take it during the weeknights unless I have a session down there which isn't often, and I would only use it when the weather is bad anyway (i.e. raining) to get to the Yankees Metro-North station to get the train back to Riverdale.  For the most part I pick and chose when to take it. If I'm walking and see a few pass and one is empty I may get on, otherwise I just walk.  They seem to bunch a lot which I like because that means one will be relatively light.  Don't care for packed buses at all which is why I usually just walk from the BxM4 or Metro-North stations, be it the Melrose one or the Yankees one.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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What time do you take it off-peak? During the nights it can be tolerable but then again I ride it for 5 minutes if that when I do ride it. I don't take it during the weeknights unless I have a session down there which isn't often, and I would only use it when the weather is bad anyway (i.e. raining) to get to the Yankees Metro-North station to get the train back to Riverdale.  For the most part I pick and chose when to take it. If I'm walking and see a few pass and one is empty I may get on, otherwise I just walk.  They seem to bunch a lot which I like because that means one will be relatively light.  Don't care for packed buses at all which is why I usually just walk from the BxM4 or Metro-North stations, be it the Melrose one or the Yankees one.

 

Sometimes I would take it anytime from 10am to 1pm, to or from Yankee Stadium. There are standees but it isn't crushed. But it's worse during Rush hours.

Edited by BronxBombers

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Sometimes I would take it anytime from 10am to 1pm, to or from Yankee Stadium. There are standees but it isn't crushed. But it's worse during Rush hours.

I see... Yeah I'm not over at that time.  PM rush, rarely and if anything at that time I would rather take Metro-North or walk from the BxM4. Much more civilized.  Those Bx6's are a mess at that time.

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I'll say this much. The Bx6 does bunch up a lot. There are times where I see 3, maybe 4 buses at the same time in one direction picking up passengers, no matter the time of day.

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I'll say this much. The Bx6 does bunch up a lot. There are times where I see 3, maybe 4 buses at the same time in one direction picking up passengers, no matter the time of day.

Too much damn idling at those stops.  You have both the young and the elderly holding up the bus constantly.  Then when they bunch, they play the old let the head guy get slammed routine.  I was walking to the BxM4 one weekend and saw a pack of Bx6's coming.  I got on the second one and figured I'd take it a few stops, then get off by the Courthouse and walk the rest of the way to the Concourse.  That chick sat at one stop for so long that I just said forget it.  Got off and kept walking. It's painfully slow.  It would benefit from having SBS service to be honest, but I don't see that happening.  They might as well make it SBS.  So much farebeating... Who in the hell pays anyway...  <_<

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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While we're discussing this subject let's consider the routes that have been chosen for artics already and where that leaves us. I want to mention specifically the addition of artics on the Q44 and Q10. The most recent LFSA order had enough buses to retire all of the '99-'00 D60HF artics that were slated to retire. One would think that getting rid of old worn down buses would take priority over handing artics out to other routes. But some genius decided that the Q10 needed artics so a bunch of artics (mainly the junk from the Bronx) got sent down to MTA bus. Then those junk buses were breaking down too much and MTAB insisted that they be taken back by the depots which sent them. So that leaves people in the Bronx sometimes taking buses that the agency themselves wanted gone a couple years ago and ordered enough buses to replace. What was so hard about keeping standard buses on the Q10 and retiring the junk that needed to retire?

 

Looking at the Q44 we know it's a really busy route that runs with a high frequency but there are other such busy routes, some of those still running without artics. I find it highly hipocritical when it's necessary to throw artics on the Q44 but the much busier B46 is still running to this day without them.

 

We need really need to look at the purpose of articulated buses and determine what routes also fit those purposes rather then just handing them out wherever.

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While we're discussing this subject let's consider the routes that have been chosen for artics already and where that leaves us. I want to mention specifically the addition of artics on the Q44 and Q10. The most recent LFSA order had enough buses to retire all of the '99-'00 D60HF artics that were slated to retire. One would think that getting rid of old worn down buses would take priority over handing artics out to other routes. But some genius decided that the Q10 needed artics so a bunch of artics (mainly the junk from the Bronx) got sent down to MTA bus. Then those junk buses were breaking down too much and MTAB insisted that they be taken back by the depots which sent them. So that leaves people in the Bronx sometimes taking buses that the agency themselves wanted gone a couple years ago and ordered enough buses to replace. What was so hard about keeping standard buses on the Q10 and retiring the junk that needed to retire?

 

Looking at the Q44 we know it's a really busy route that runs with a high frequency but there are other such busy routes, some of those still running without artics. I find it highly hipocritical when it's necessary to throw artics on the Q44 but the much busier B46 is still running to this day without them.

 

We need really need to look at the purpose of articulated buses and determine what routes also fit those purposes rather then just handing them out wherever.

They need to order MORE artics and less of those small @ss 40 footers.  Or find a way to reconfigure those buses.  You can't stand anywhere without being in the way.  I can stand in peace on the artics (the low floor buses) though and be out of the way.

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While we're discussing this subject let's consider the routes that have been chosen for artics already and where that leaves us. I want to mention specifically the addition of artics on the Q44 and Q10. The most recent LFSA order had enough buses to retire all of the '99-'00 D60HF artics that were slated to retire. One would think that getting rid of old worn down buses would take priority over handing artics out to other routes. But some genius decided that the Q10 needed artics so a bunch of artics (mainly the junk from the Bronx) got sent down to MTA bus. Then those junk buses were breaking down too much and MTAB insisted that they be taken back by the depots which sent them. So that leaves people in the Bronx sometimes taking buses that the agency themselves wanted gone a couple years ago and ordered enough buses to replace. What was so hard about keeping standard buses on the Q10 and retiring the junk that needed to retire?

 

Looking at the Q44 we know it's a really busy route that runs with a high frequency but there are other such busy routes, some of those still running without artics. I find it highly hipocritical when it's necessary to throw artics on the Q44 but the much busier B46 is still running to this day without them.

 

We need really need to look at the purpose of articulated buses and determine what routes also fit those purposes rather then just handing them out wherever.

Maybe the buses JFK had prior to the hand me down D60s was even MORE beat up and those D60s was a upgrade, I can assure you the Orion V's leftover from Green Lines was beat to hell far worse than the D60s, they had holes in them where you can see the street below, inside of the bus FAR hotter than the outside on a warm day, missing seats, etc.

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They need to order MORE artics and less of those small @ss 40 footers.  Or find a way to reconfigure those buses.  You can't stand anywhere without being in the way.  I can stand in peace on the artics (the low floor buses) though and be out of the way.

 

The issue with reconfiguration is that customers hate other layouts. Back when they were considering buying low-floor buses, they had three buses with variations on seating and floor layout (from longitudinal layouts to 100% low floor and no steps in the back) and customers absolutely hated the other layouts besides the current one. It's like the pilot with the pull-up seats on the subway; riders hate changes, particularly any that get rid of seating to boost standing space.

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The issue with reconfiguration is that customers hate other layouts. Back when they were considering buying low-floor buses, they had three buses with variations on seating and floor layout (from longitudinal layouts to 100% low floor and no steps in the back) and customers absolutely hated the other layouts besides the current one. It's like the pilot with the pull-up seats on the subway; riders hate changes, particularly any that get rid of seating to boost standing space.

All I know is those damn low floor 40 footers have nowhere to stand, and it's particularly bad on the Orion buses.  The Xcelsiors are laid out better.  If I don't want to sit, I should be able to stand and not feel as if I'm in everyone's way.  You can do this just fine on low floor artics, but can't on regular low floor 40 footers.  

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While we're discussing this subject let's consider the routes that have been chosen for artics already and where that leaves us. I want to mention specifically the addition of artics on the Q44 and Q10. The most recent LFSA order had enough buses to retire all of the '99-'00 D60HF artics that were slated to retire. One would think that getting rid of old worn down buses would take priority over handing artics out to other routes. But some genius decided that the Q10 needed artics so a bunch of artics (mainly the junk from the Bronx) got sent down to MTA bus. Then those junk buses were breaking down too much and MTAB insisted that they be taken back by the depots which sent them. So that leaves people in the Bronx sometimes taking buses that the agency themselves wanted gone a couple years ago and ordered enough buses to replace. What was so hard about keeping standard buses on the Q10 and retiring the junk that needed to retire?

 

Looking at the Q44 we know it's a really busy route that runs with a high frequency but there are other such busy routes, some of those still running without artics. I find it highly hipocritical when it's necessary to throw artics on the Q44 but the much busier B46 is still running to this day without them.

 

We need really need to look at the purpose of articulated buses and determine what routes also fit those purposes rather then just handing them out wherever.

Not sure what you're trying to say, but it's clearly evident that you've never seen the Q10 during the rush hour. Those 40ft buses couldn't handle the demand of the 3 branches of the Q10 since people waiting on line would be waiting for a bus and would sometimes have to bypass multiple buses just to get in. The addition of artics stopped that and those artics get crushed during the rush.

 

Secondly, MTA Bus never insisted on anything....the artics kept breaking down on the Q10 so the DOB wanted to send those artics into the depots that maintain them better, since those artics were out 24/7 in Queens.

 

I'm not sure why the B46 doesn't have artics, maybe it's reasons out of the norm. I'm sure someone on here can elaborate on that.

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Not sure what you're trying to say, but it's clearly evident that you've never seen the Q10 during the rush hour. Those 40ft buses couldn't handle the demand of the 3 branches of the Q10 since people waiting on line would be waiting for a bus and would sometimes have to bypass multiple buses just to get in. The addition of artics stopped that and those artics get crushed during the rush.

 

Secondly, MTA Bus never insisted on anything....the artics kept breaking down on the Q10 so the DOB wanted to send those artics into the depots that maintain them better, since those artics were out 24/7 in Queens.

 

I'm not sure why the B46 doesn't have artics, maybe it's reasons out of the norm. I'm sure someone on here can elaborate on that.

Maybe adding service first would have helped the Q10 situation. There are other routes in our bus system with better service levels that still have crowding issues. The Q10 could very well have been in line for articulated buses when the next order of them was ready. My point is that they didn't need to run Q10 artics before they needed to get rid of the ones they were scheduled to retire. If the Q10 needed them so bad we could have 40 footers on the Q44 while JFK has the LFSA instead of D60HF. Someone didn't think this through. 

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Maybe adding service first would have helped the Q10 situation. There are other routes in our bus system with better service levels that still have crowding issues. The Q10 could very well have been in line for articulated buses when the next order of them was ready. My point is that they didn't need to run Q10 artics before they needed to get rid of the ones they were scheduled to retire. If the Q10 needed them so bad we could have 40 footers on the Q44 while JFK has the LFSA instead of D60HF. Someone didn't think this through.

There's only a certain amount of service you can add before you just can't anymore. There's a limited amount of both operators and available bus (JFK currently is being loaned buses on top of that). Besides, you know that the MTA would like to place artics. It saves them money in the long run. It also comes to which is a bigger priority to replace, in terms of fleet, and if the depot is qualified and able to take in artics.

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven

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Not sure what you're trying to say, but it's clearly evident that you've never seen the Q10 during the rush hour. Those 40ft buses couldn't handle the demand of the 3 branches of the Q10 since people waiting on line would be waiting for a bus and would sometimes have to bypass multiple buses just to get in. The addition of artics stopped that and those artics get crushed during the rush.

 

Secondly, MTA Bus never insisted on anything....the artics kept breaking down on the Q10 so the DOB wanted to send those artics into the depots that maintain them better, since those artics were out 24/7 in Queens.

 

I'm not sure why the B46 doesn't have artics, maybe it's reasons out of the norm. I'm sure someone on here can elaborate on that.

They were so hell bent on the SBS 44 and only got enough artics just for that line.

 

The next artic order should fix that problem...whenever the order goes out

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There's only a certain amount of service you can add before you just can't anymore. There's a limited amount of both operators and available bus (JFK currently is being loaned buses on top of that). Besides, you know that the MTA would like to place artics. It saves them money in the long run. It also comes to which is a bigger priority to replace, in terms of fleet, and if the depot is qualified and able to take in artics.

I understand the fact that artics save money. I just don't see where the MTA has been smart in the routes they've chosen to run them on. Are they needed on Bx5? Nope. That route has mediocre ridership and the majority of trips east of WPR/Story have plenty of seats available. That's just one example. Gun Hill has too many of them to throw around while other depots with highly utilized routes have to throw the kitchen sink at them in terms of service. We have the resources to serve riders well without increasing costs. Said resources are misallocated. I would like the posters who are suggesting routes to also suggest routes that artics should be moved from to make things happen. Routes like the Bx5 I mentioned.

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I understand the fact that artics save money. I just don't see where the MTA has been smart in the routes they've chosen to run them on. Are they needed on Bx5? Nope. That route has mediocre ridership and the majority of trips east of WPR/Story have plenty of seats available. That's just one example. Gun Hill has too many of them to throw around while other depots with highly utilized routes have to throw the kitchen sink at them in terms of service. We have the resources to serve riders well without increasing costs. Said resources are misallocated. I would like the posters who are suggesting routes to also suggest routes that artics should be moved from to make things happen. Routes like the Bx5 I mentioned.

 

I strongly disagree with that one. The Bx5 needs artics. It gets extremely crowded leaving Southern Blvd.

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