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GGTrain

Staten Island Fantasy System Useful for Future BVE

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I am currently coming up with a detailed plan for Staten Island. I believe it's quite ingenious as I am using scribble maps to snake the routes through neighborhoods. The assumption is that these routes were built from the time frame when they were proposed in the years before WWII. Additional routes were added after WWII. The point here is that non underground routes may be in place of existing residential structures. It also assumes that Staten Island is more urban in 2015 as a result of these routes. Here is the fantasy Staten Island of 2015.

  • Mid and high rise development is in place on Richmond Avenue north of Arthur Kill Road.
  • The mall complex exists at its current location.
  • Travis and Mariners Harbor have a mix of row houses and newer high risers.
  • The Saint George area is Downtown Staten Island.
  • The urban area along Bay Street is more organized.
  • The Verrazano Bridge exists and was opened in 1951 in conjunction with the building of the Gowanus Expressway and the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. The Richmond Parkway, Willowbrook Parkway, and Shore Front Parkway are built as originally proposed. South Beach and Midland Beach are destination hot spots.
  • High risers stretch from the Verrazano Bridge south to New Dorp Beach.
  • The hills of Staten Island retain their exclusivity and the area south of New Dorp to Tottenville retains its suburban nature albeit a little denser than what it is currently.
  • There are NO wetlands designations or ridiculous parklands to preserve woodlands that nobody uses. And lastly NO Gateway National Park.
  • The 2015 population is 1,250,000.

The connection to the subway system implies 2 tunnels to Brooklyn. The first is the existing proposal from 67th  Street and Owls Head Park to Tompkinsville, Staten Island. This tunnel realizes the original proposal to connect to the 4th Avenue subway.  However a there is new a connection to the Triboro RX which was also built around 1950. The other is a longer tunnel from Saint George to Red Hook Brooklyn. The longer tunnel anchors Governors Island as a fast route to Manhattan and connecting to the 2nd Avenue subway originating on Water Street. It also extends to the Smith Street IND subway for quick connections from Staten Island to the 6th and 8th Avenue subways and the crosstown subway to Queens.
Here are the details:

  • On Staten Island the North Shore SIRT is disconnected from the subway and used entirely as freight.
  • A 4 track subway runs along a route on Castleton Avenue west to Forest Avenue along Port Richmond Avenue and then along Forest Avenue ending in Mariners Harbor at South Avenue. This route extends the IND Crosstown line 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg which uses the Red Hook Tunnel and the Triboro RX 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg which uses the Owls Head Tunnel.  Another branch of the 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg line branches off in Brooklyn to Governors Island and terminates there.
  • A 2 track route runs along Victory Blvd and ends at Travis Avenue. This route extends the IND 6th Avenue line 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg which uses the Red Hook Tunnel and runs as a subway to Willowbrook road. It exists the tunnel and runs open cut from Willowbrook Road to Travis.
  • A route uses the existing South Shore SIRT from Rosebank to Tottenville. North of Rosebank the route enters a tunnel. The current stations of St. George, Tompkinsville, Stapleton, and Clifton are disconnected from the subway system and are part of the North Shore freight system.  A subway along Bay Street takes the place of these stations.  Two lines use this route and the existing right of way is expanded to 4 tracks south to Great Kills. These lines are the new 2nd Avenue Express 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg which runs from Tottenville to 125th Street and Broadway in Manhattan. This runs as an express and uses the Red Hook Tunnel.  There are no stops in Brooklyn, but there is a stop on Governors Island before running to Manhattan. The other line is the extension of the BMT 4th Avenue line 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg which terminates in Great Kills. This runs as a local and used the Owls Head Tunnel.
  • Another route replaces the South Beach SIRT except for the right of way from the Verrazano toll plaza to Sand Lane. This line runs from Vanderbilt Avenue in Clifton as a subway along Bay Street, then uses the above mentioned right of way exiting the tunnel south of the toll plaza then and running as Staten Island's only true elevated line along Capodanno Blvd to Lincoln Avenue where it then runs at street level to Ebbitts Street in New Dorp. This line operates as a shuttle 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg to Clifton except for rush hours when some 2nd Avenue trains 19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png run along this route.
  • The Triboro RX 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg branches off Forest Avenue and Richmond Avenue to run along Richmond Avenue to meet up with the 2nd Avenue line 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg in Eltingville on the SIRT right of way. This line exits the tunnel and runs on 2 tracks along a median on Richmond Avenue up to just north of the Fresh Kills Bridge. At that point it runs on a berm consistent with the elevated style of the South Shore SIRT. The berm is situated east of Richmond Avenue.
  • The Hudson Bergen Light Rail (HBLR) is extended over the Bayonne Bridge to meet up with the 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg lines at Richmond and Forest Avenues.  Another fantasy version could scrap the HBLR all together and replace it with the PATH system.  With the raising of the Bayonne Bridge it would be best to have the PATH run under the Kill van Kull.
  • The 2nd Avenue Local 19572201101_5159c76817_o.png runs exclusively in Manhattan.
  • Train yards exist in New Dorp Beach, Tottenville, and Travis.

This is quite complex and was given a lot of thought, leveraging current street maps as well as a knowledge of Staten Island.  I would like to sometime in the future to incorporate this into BVE. I will soon be posting a number of detailed maps illustrating this design.

Edited by +Young+
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Very interesting! For years I've had a Staten Island North Shore subway line proposal. It was more of an independent subway line that didn't connect with the NYCT subway but did go to Brooklyn.

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We do have a subway proposals thread...

 

Yes I did see that, but this is a fantasy not a proposal.  I would like to have this thread specific to the Staten Island lines and their connectivity to the surrounding region.  I will have hair growing on my bald head before this fantasy ever becomes a reality.

 

OK back to the fantasy.  Here is how the Staten Island lines connect to the region with reference to other lines that interact with them.

 

18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg Court Square, Queens - South Ave, Staten Island or Governors Island via Crosstown Local

19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg125 St and Broadway, Manhattan - Main St, Tottenville, Staten Island via 2nd Avenue Express

19572201101_5159c76817_o.png 125 St and Broadway, Manhattan - Whitehall St, Manhattan via 2nd Avenue Local

19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg 71 St Continental Ave, Queens - Travis Ave, Staten Island via 6th Ave Local

19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg 57 St and 7th Ave, Manhattan - Nelson Ave, Great Kills, Staten Island via 4th Avenue and Broadway Local

18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg Hunts Point Ave, Bronx - Richmond Ave, Eltingville, Staten Island via Triboro RX

 

18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg Vanderbilt Ave, Clifton, Staten Island - Ebbitts St, New Dorp Beach, Staten Island (All times)

19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png 125 St and Broadway, Manhattan- Ebbitts St, New Dorp Beach, Staten Island via 2nd Avenue Express (rush hour only)

 

Here is the regional map: 35878563036_dc72f20309_b.jpg

 

This is a map showing both the Red Hook Tunnel and the Owls Head Tunnel.  The Owls Head Tunnel closely resembles the original design of the 1920s.  The Red Hook Tunnel is actually a 4 track tube.  The 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg uses the northern 2 tracks while the 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg uses the southern 2 tracks.

 

19379685398_39a512b634_b.jpg

 

Next up is a post on how the tunnels make landfall with detailed maps of Downtown Staten Island, Red Hook, and Bay Ridge.

Edited by +Young+
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Funny thing about that plan, it's like the old plans for similar SI-BRT connections. I'd be able to describe them, but I lent out "The Routes Not Taken.

Edited by LTA1992
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This is a map illustrating how the Red Hook Tunnel makes landfall in Brooklyn.  It helps that I am familiar with this area as it shows my old neighborhood of Carroll Gardens.  The tunnel enters Brooklyn at Dwight Street, but the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg veers north to Governors Island without making any stops in Brooklyn.  The 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg
heads east along W. 9 St. making a stop at Columbia St. giving this area much needed access to the subway system rather than making the trek to the Smith-9th Street elevated or a bus ride to downtown Brooklyn for other connections.  These two lines then turn north onto Smith Street which is just east of the elevated line that runs over the Gowanus Canal and then meet up with the existing subway just south of Carroll Street. The 35595938670_c039cc09b4_t.jpg and 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg share the same route heading to Manhattan and the 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg runs along the existing route to Queens, but no longer runs to Smith-9th Street or Church Avenue.  A side note is the that some 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg trains terminate at Governors Island rather than run to Staten Island.
 
18945089174_773af3e84d_b.jpg
 
 
Here is the Manhattan connection for 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg trains giving Staten Island nearly direct access the financial district via Water Street.  Transfers are available at Whitehall Street and Fulton Street to existing subways.
 
19381103769_20a00424cc_b.jpg
 

 

Next up is the Owls Head connection and Downtown Staten Island.
 


This map illustrates the landfall of the Owls Head Tunnel in Bay Ridge Brooklyn.  Trains enter Brooklyn from Staten Island running along 67th St. making a stop there.  East of 3rd Avenue the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg loops north and enters the 4th Avenue subway while the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg continues eastward making a stop at 4th Avenue allowing a transfer to the 35985087215_b6375a9e46_t.jpg at Bay Ridge Av.  The 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg then continues east sharing tracks with the 35595938590_0744b1e3f6_t.jpg Sea Beach line before branching along the Triboro RX to the Bronx.
 
18945089324_d1ce2cb2f9_h.jpg
 

 

Next up is Downtown Staten Island.

Edited by +Young+
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This map illustrates the Downtown Staten Island area.  All Staten Island subways meet up at this location.  On Staten Island maps all disused SIRT stations are crossed out with an "X". 
 
The Red Hook Tunnel enters Staten Island at Richmond Terrace just north of the ferry terminal.  All trains using this tunnel stop at Richmond Terrace which is a bi-level station with 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg trains on the upper level and 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg trains on the lower level.  The 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg continues westward under Hamilton and Crescent Avenues to Jersey St before it eventually runs along Castleton and Forest Avenues.  The 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg trains turn south along St. Marks Place with a stop there close to the St. George Theatre and Staten Island Borough Hall.  This is another bi-level station as the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg enters Staten Island via the Owls Head Tunnel south of the ferry tunnel and heads north along St. Marks Place.  The 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg is on the lower level with the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg on the upper level.  The 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg continues north to meet up with the 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg to share another bi-level station at Westervelt and Crescent Avenues. The 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg is on the lower level as the subway continues along Jersey St with the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg running express under the Jersey St. station.  Due to the narrowness of the streets in this area 4 tracks on a single level is not feasible. That changes on Castleton Avenue.
 
As stated before the Owls Head Tunnel enters Staten Island south of the ferry terminal with the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg heading north along St. Marks Place.  The 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg on the other hand branches south along Bay Street.  Additionally the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg are also heading south with the 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg entering a station along Victory Blvd at Bay Street.  The 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg enters a 4 track station along Bay Street at Victory Blvd on the center 2 tracks with the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg on the outside tracks.  This is a transfer point.  The 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg continues along Victory Blvd all the way to Travis while the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg continues along Bay Street eventually using the current South Shore SIRT right of way.
 
18946735883_30766920b0_b.jpg
 
Next up are detailed maps of the subways on Staten Island.

Edited by +Young+
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These maps illustrate the subways on Staten Island's North Shore.  Shown are the Castleton Avenue 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg lines and the extreme northern part of the Victory Blvd 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg line. The Victory Blvd line is a 2 track local with platforms on each side.  The Castleton Avenue line is 4 tracks with the 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg running local and the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg running express.  During the building of the subway Castleton Avenue was widened to handle the 4 tracks on a single level and the stretch from Jersey Street to Brighton Avenue was reconfigured to handle a more direct route.  Other consideration was to keep Castleton Avenue its current width and have the subway run on 2 levels or have the subway run down Henderson Avenue instead.  Also shown are the now defunct stations of the North Shore SIRT as well as Downtown Staten Island.

 

19567634615_ebeb9435d9_h.jpg

 

 

Further west the widened section of Castleton Ave ends. The 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg express route branches off onto Decker Avenue for a more direct access to Richmond and Forest Avenues.  The 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg local route continues on Castleton Avenue up to Port Richmond Avenue. It then turns onto Port Richmond Avenue providing service to the Port Richmond business district.  The design to provide a more direct route for expresses is also used in Brooklyn and Queens as part of the IND system.  This line was also built as part of the IND.  Additionally this eliminates the need to widen a road such as Port Richmond Avenue.  The18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg continues on meeting the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg again at Richmond and Forest Avenues.  At Richmond and Forest Avenues the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg turns southward onto Richmond Avenue.  This station is the last 4 track stop on this line.  The 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg continues westward on Forest Avenue as a 2 track subway and ends at South Avenue.  Also at Forest and Richmond Avenue is a terminus for the Hudson Bergen Light Rail (HBLR) which runs over the Bayonne Bridge.  It is the only Staten Island stop.  It runs from the Bridge along the Willowbrook (MLK) Parkway and exiting at Forest Avenue.  Another option was to use PATH on the HBLR right of way, have it run under the Kill van Kull, then under Morningstar Road to Forest and Richmond Avenues.  On Richmond Avenue the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg leaves the subway at Vedder Avenue and runs along a center median on a widened RIchmond Avenue.  This was built during the early to mid 1950s as an addition to the Triboro RX.

 

18945088444_1cf774508b_h.jpg

 

Next up the East Shore and  South Beach detailed maps.

Edited by +Young+
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On Staten Island's East Shore the focus is on the Bay Street Subway which replaces the South Shore SIRT from Clifton to Tompkinsville.  The names Stapleton and Clifton have been retained along with the street the stations of the subway serves.  It is a 4 track subway with the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg stopping at all stations.  The 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg skips Broad St - Stapleton and runs under the station. South of this station is where things get a little tricky.  The next station is Vanderbilt Ave - Clifton which is served by the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg and 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg lines before they head to the South Shore.  Additionally it is a terminus for the 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg as well a stop for rush hour 19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png service.  Both the 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg and 19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png head to the beach areas from this point.  Also note that the 19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png runs in one direction, mornings to Manhattan, and evenings to Staten Island.  South of Broad Street the lower level tracks merge into a single lower level track and branch to two upper level tracks.  On the lower level, this is the point where the 19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png switches to the mainline 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg during the morning rush and where the 19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png switches off the mainline 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg during the evening rush.  Regular 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg service to and from the South Shore come and go from the upper level tracks.  What this means is Vanderbilt Avenue - Clifton is a bi-level station.  There are 4 tracks on the upper level where the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg runs on the middle tracks and the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg is on each end.  There are 3 tracks on the lower level with the 19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png in the middle and the 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg on the ends.  There are bumpers on each of the ends as this is a terminus for the 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg.
 
18946735793_a49c399bfa_b.jpg
 
This next map illustrates what happens past the Clifton junction.  The Clifton junction was a terminology used for the location where the South Shore and South Beach SIRT merged.  It has a similar meaning for the subway.  This map shows the disused stations of the South Beach SIRT and where the 3 track 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png  subway runs close to its path but shifting to Bay Street at Hylan Blvd.  These lines exit the subway just south of the Verrazano toll plaza on the right of way of the old SIRT to a station at McClean Avenue (shown on another map).  This station sits exactly on the spot where the Arrochar station of the SIRT once stood.  The 19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png will always use the middle track.  The 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg and 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg begin to use the right of way of the South Shore SIRT where 4 tracks exit the subway south of Tompkins Avenue.  From this point south to Jefferson Avenue the line was simply expanded  from 2 to 4 tracks with minimal difficulty.  A new station was added at St. Marys Avenue - Rosebank and the Grasmere Station retained its name with a Clove Road addition. 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg express trains run on the center tracks while 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg local trains run on the ends.  All stations have been lengthened to handle ten 60 foot trains.

 

19379693700_c7550c6666_h.jpg

 

Next up the part of the South Shore with South and Midland Beaches.

Edited by +Young+
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This map illustrates the South Shore from Oakwood to the Verrazano Bridge.  This area encompasses the South Shore SIRT right of way used by the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg lines and the 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png lines servicing South Beach, Midland Beach, and New Dorp Beach.  On the South Shore right of way the 4 track expansion from Rosebank to Jefferson Avenue was a relatively moderate task adding 2 tracks at the ends.  Clove Road - Grasmere had to be completely redesigned as a 4 track express station while all the other stations had the platforms moved to the outside tracks.  The area around Seaview Avenue - Dongan Hills was a little difficult with Railroad Avenue being shadowed by elevated structure.  All berms were cleared of vegetation and the same railings, stanchions and walkways used on elevated structures exist on the berm edges.  South of Jefferson Avenue the express tracks run below the local tracks with the local tracks remaining outdoors.  The express station serving New Dorp Lane have the express platforms below ground while the local platforms are outdoors.  South of New Dorp the express tracks leave the mini-subway and the single level 4 track outdoor line continues on to Nelson Avenue - Great Kills.

 

As stated in a previous post the 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png lines exit the subway south of the Verrazano toll plaza and use the South Beach SIRT right of way up to Sand Lane near Capodanno Blvd.  The station at McClean Avenue sits right on the location of the old Arrochar SIRT station.  This station is outdoors below street level.  On the right of way up to Sand Land there is a ramp to Staten Island's only true elevated structure that runs along Capodanno Blvd south to Lincoln Avenue in Midland Beach.  South of that point the line runs down the el to street level.  The New Dorp Lane and Ebbitts Street terminus (shown on another map) are at street level.  A train yard branches off the terminus in New Dorp Beach.  Note that 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg trains run on the local tracks while 19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png trains use the express middle track.

19381103089_a8c74875ae_h.jpg

 

Next up the remaining South Shore right of way including New Dorp Beach.

Edited by +Young+
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This next map shows the South Shore from New Dorp to Huguenot.  As stated before the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg  use the South Shore SIRT right of way.  The standard 4 track configuration is in place from the location where the mini-subway ends in New Dorp to Nelson Ave - Great Kills.  Nelson Ave - Great Kills is the last 4 track station on this line with the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg terminating there.  For the remainder of this line to Tottenville the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg runs as a local on the existing 2 track right of way.  In order for the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg to cross over the local tracks extend past the Great Kills station and curve below the express tracks.  The two tracks merge into a single track and local trains reverse direction there.  The only exception to using the existing 2 track configuration occurs at Richmond Ave - Eltingville.  Here the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg line terminates on a berm.  This station has 4 tracks with the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg on the two south facing tracks and the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg on the two north facing tracks.  There are track connections between the two lines east of the station, but they are not used in revenue service.  The 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg curves northward on a berm situated east of Richmond Avenue.  Existing structures built in the 1960s and 1970s never existed as this berm was constructed during the 1950s when the Triboro RX was extended to Staten Island.  This berm runs all the way to Arthur Kill Road and the design was chosen to be consistent with that of the South Shore SIRT.  As stated before all berms and stations were converted to NYCTA statndards (i.e. cleared vegetation, railings, walkways, stanchions, and longer stations).  North of Arthur Kill Road the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg runs on a concrete structure briefly lowering itself to cross the Fresh Kills and pass under the Richmond (Korean) Parkway before slanting over to a widened Richmond Avenue to run on a center median.  This map also shows the terminus for the 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png lines at Ebbitts Street in New Dorp Beach which is at ground level.  A train yard similar to Rockaway Parkway in Canarsie or Rockaway Park exists there.
 
18946734943_1247efba07_h.jpg
 
 
This map illustrates the remaining South Shore right of way from Eltingville to Tottenville.  Here the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg runs as a local with little change to the current SIRT line with the exception of the upgrade to NYCTA standards.  The 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg is the heaviest traveled line on Staten Island.
 
18945088074_4dcbe58522_h.jpg

 

Next up is Mid - Island.

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This map illustrates the Victory Blvd 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg line as it runs from Silver Lake to Jewett Avenue.  This is a 2 track subway without a need for an express track due to the longer distances between stations.  Average station length on Staten Island is longer than in the other boroughs.  The 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg line initially terminated at Jewett Avenue but was extended during the 1950s.

 

19571928321_bab53d114d_h.jpg

 

 

The next map shows the 1950s extension of the 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg line as it extends out to Travis.  Here the line exits the subway just west of Wooley Avenue to run at ground level just south of Victory Blvd.  During the 1950s there were minimal structures there and the Staten Island Expressway was being built to accomodate the right of way running beneath it.  Also some of Willowbrook Park was surrendered.  At Goller Place the line runs underground again as the new Victory Blvd- Richmond Avenue station was built to transfer to the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg line there.  This is a major Staten Island intersection with many commercial buildings in the area, so an underground station was best suited here.  At Arlene Street the line exits the underground to continue at ground level albeit on the north side of Victory Blvd and terminating at Travis Avenue.  The entire Teleport area is a huge train yard with maintenance facilities.   The Richmond Avenue 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg runs on a center median with the exception of the Victory Blvd station where is goes underground south of Morani Street and exiting south of Eton Place.  All stations along this route are center island platform to minimize the width of the median which is a concrete right of way.  Also underground there are switching connections between the 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg and 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpglines that are not in revenue service.  Also a side note is that south of Caswell Avenue clearance considerations were made for the new Staten Island Expressway.

 

18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg

 

The next map is the final segment showing Richmond Avenue around the current day mall location.  Here the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpgcontinues on the center median until it gets to just north of the Fresh Kills Bridge where it veers slightly east to get to the Arthur Kill Road station before running on a berm to Eltingville.  This was described in a prior post.  A side note is that the mall complex is much different than what we know it now.  The sanitation dumping facilities were closed after WWII and a major landfill operation allowed for the building of mid and high rise buildings west of Richmond Avenue.

 

18945088664_3bc3e9fc72_b.jpg

 

Next up final notes.

Edited by +Young+
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Side Notes:

 

It should be noted that the building of the Shore Front Parkway was also part of the road construction phase.  This parkway runs along Staten Island's Shoth Shore from the Outerbridge Crossing to the Verrazano Bridge.  Its right of way also runs between Hylan Blvd and Capodanno Blvd with many high rise buildings on each side.  Capodanno Blvd is also extended to Buffalo Street which is the current  (and only) roadway  running from Hylan Blvd into Gateway National Park.  The 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg19379999148_c1f2d7820f_o.png serve this area and the entire strip of beach and boardwalk which is extended south to New Dorp Beach is alive with commercial businesses and amusements.  There is NO Gateway National Park to inhibit such growth.

 

I focused on Staten Island because its "virgin" territory.  It can be said that there are area in the other boroughs that need subway service also, but Staten Island is unique becuase of its location and geography.

 

I hope that these details can contribute to making this fantasy a reality in the virtual world.  We are lucky to have applications like BVE to make it happen.  That may be my next step.  Maybe someone can take up that task.  I am also an avid subway and elevated structure modeler.  Please see my posts regarding that subject.

Edited by +Young+
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While reviewing the Staten Island subway plan it was best to keep in mind transportation planning with regards to the MAXIMUM number of transfers required to get to a specific destination. There are two specific rules.

First, to get anywhere in the system between stations on Staten Island should require at most TWO transfers. Passengers may choose to transfer more times but that is at their discretion.  For example to get from Forest and South Avenue on the 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg line to New Dorp Beach on the 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg line requires a transfer at Richmond Terrace for the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line toward Tottenville. At Vanderbilt Avenue passengers transfer to the 18947007483_61589205b1_t.jpg line. That is two transfers.  However passengers may wish to transfer to the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg line at Richmond and Forest Avenues to get to the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line more quickly at St. Marks Place. This is an additional transfer.

Second, a maximum of ONE transfer is required to get to any of the tunnels leaving Staten Island. Also that transfer should be in the direction leading to the tunnel.

For the first rule the system is designed to meet the requirement.  However the practicality is flawed for those along the local 18945362104_0d287cf6e7_t.jpg or 19561091552_c35abb0df8_t.jpg line stations close to Richmond Avenue who wish to get to the local 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg line running eastward from Great Kills.  In this case there would be a transfer made to the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg line at Richmond Avenue, then a transfer to the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line at Eltingville, and then another transfer to the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg line at Great Kills.   That is three transfers.  True there would be only two transfers should riders transfer to the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line in Downtown Staten Island, but it is more practical to travel via Richmond Avenue.  For this reason it is best for planners to extend the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg line terminus to Richmond Avenue - Eltingville.  Another example of the advantage of the extension would be that a trip from Bay Terrace to the Staten Island Mall requires a single transfer to the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg line in Eltingville.  Without the extension riders would first need to transfer to the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line at Nelson Avenue - Great Kills and then transfer a stop later in Eltingville for the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg line. That is quite inefficient.

 

Next the new Richmond Avenue - Eltingville design.

Edited by +Young+
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The plan for Eltingville is now more complex given the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg line terminus there as well as the need for a 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg line crossover without interfering with the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line.  All this makes designing for BVE all the more fun.  The map modification is quite simple, but track and station designs require some thought.  Nelson Avenue - Great Kills is still an express stop for both the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg and 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg lines. The 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line runs on the middle express tracks while the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg runs on the outside local tracks.  For the next station at Richmond Avenue - Eltingville this configuration must be reversed. The 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg line terminates on the middle two tracks while the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line runs on the outside tracks.  The 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg  Iine must continue to and from Tottenville without interference from the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg line crossover.  To achieve this the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line middle tracks must rise up quickly west of the Great Kills station to the elevation of the Armstrong Avenue trestle  with a slight curve for both tracks away from center. The 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg line outside tracks must curve in towards center and under the 19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line elevation before rising up to the elevation of the trestle.  Also at Eltingville the 18945361564_35eea715b3_t.jpg line terminus is situated on a berm north of the 19381378229_42a2eee36f_t.jpg19567910055_3b12507575_t.jpg line station.  The actual terminus is at Eltingvile Blvd, so the 2 track station is further east of the W_zpssvg64ivi.png T_zpsfxy0blso.png (165 & 166) line station, but still shares some common ground to allow for a full transfer.  The Eltingville station is the only station on Staten Island with 6 tracks.

 

SISouth2x_zpsvlkwjgju.jpg (167)

 
 
Next, the second rule flaw.

For the second rule there was a slight flaw given the fact that the V_zpsvthlr23u.png (168) line originally bypassed Victory Blvd - Bay Street.  This meant that to get to the Owls Head Tunnel passengers had to travel back to St. Marks Place to get the X_zpsohxgb1re.png (169) line.  Allowing the V_zpsvthlr23u.png (170) line to stop at Victory Blvd - Bay Street allows for a more direct connection to the tunnel via the W_zpssvg64ivi.png (171) line. The V_zpsvthlr23u.png (172) line runs under Central Avenue before running under St. Marks Place.
 

SIDowntownx_zpspvhgptjp.jpg (173)

Edited by +Young+
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Further west the widened section of Castleton Ave ends. The X_zpsohxgb1re.pngexpress route branches off onto Decker Avenue for a more direct access to Richmond and Forest Avenues.  The G_zpslbu6dv44.pnglocal route continues on Castleton Avenue up to Port Richmond Avenue. It then turns onto Port Richmond Avenue providing service to the Port Richmond business district.  The design to provide a more direct route for expresses is also used in Brooklyn and Queens as part of the IND system.  This line was also built as part of the IND.  Additionally this eliminates the need to widen a road such as Port Richmond Avenue.  The G_zpslbu6dv44.png continues on meeting the X_zpsohxgb1re.png again at Richmond and Forest Avenues.  At Richmond and Forest Avenues the X_zpsohxgb1re.png turns southward onto Richmond Avenue.  This station is the last 4 track stop on this line.  The G_zpslbu6dv44.png continues westward on Forest Avenue as a 2 track subway and ends at South Avenue.  Also at Forest and Richmond Avenue is a terminus for the Hudson Bergen Light Rail (HBLR) which runs over the Bayonne Bridge.  It is the only Staten Island stop.  It runs from the Bridge along the Willowbrook (MLK) Parkway and exiting at Forest Avenue.  Another option was to use PATH on the HBLR right of way, have it run under the Kill van Kull, then under Morningstar Road to Forest and Richmond Avenues.  On Richmond Avenue the X_zpsohxgb1re.png leaves the subway at Vedder Avenue and runs along a center median on a widened RIchmond Avenue.  This was built during the early to mid 1950s as an addition to the Triboro RX.

 

First of all, I want to say, great maps! I wish I were better with this software so I could make maps like those.

 

With this plan, just a suggestion: I don't think the Decker Avenue bypass is really necessary. It is only slightly more direct compared to using Port Richmond Avenue. Once it passes Broadway, you can probably merge the two together, and just have the (X) make the three extra stops with the (G). But of course, it's your plan, bro! :) 

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Hi checkmate,

 

Thank you for your reply.  The only reason for the Decker Avenue bypass is that Port Richmond Avenue is not a wide street.  Your point is well taken and the X_zpsohxgb1re.png (174) could in fact run on a lower level similar to that of Smith Street in Brooklyn.  Also consider that express trains could run faster along Decker Avenue as a lot of the sharp turns are eliminated.

Edited by +Young+

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Hi checkmate,

 

Thank you for your reply.  The only reason for the Decker Avenue bypass is that Port Richmond Avenue is not a wide street.  Your point is well taken and the X_zpsohxgb1re.png (174) could in fact run on a lower level similar to that of Smith Street in Brooklyn.  Also consider that express trains could run faster along Decker Avenue as a lot of the sharp turns are eliminated.

 

Or perhaps swing the X_zpsohxgb1re.png (175) south to serve Forest Avenue and Jewett Avenue and Clove Road.  I will think about  that.

Edited by +Young+

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Thank you for the compliments.  I will probably be adding the 2nd Avenue Manhattan map as well as a Triboro RX map of Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx.  The 2nd Avenue subway will not be the same as proposed for the 21st century, particularly south of 14th Street and along 125th Street.

 

I am graduating now to providing track maps where the most complicated track work is needed for this fantasy system.  Again BVE enthusiasts including myself could benefit from this.  Before starting I would like to give credit to the authors or the "Tracks of the New York City Subway".  I will be using some of their maps with modifications as well as using a lot of their formatting techniques.

 

The first track map illustrates the Red Hook/Carroll Gardens areas of Brooklyn as it interfaces with the Red Hook Tunnels and Governors Island.  This map shows tracks along Smith Street from Downtown Brooklyn to West 9th Street.  The two level configuration along Smith Street is modified a bit to allow for access to Red Hook and Governors Island.  In particular the Carroll Street station has two levels where trains stop.  The lower level platforms and tracks are right under the platforms that currently exists there.  Also the express tracks leading to the Smith Street viaduct are not changed.  The only changes north of Carroll Street are ramps connecting the upper and lower levels for each of the 2 tracks.  South of Carroll Street the tracks of the lower level station curve east to remain under Smith Street east of the viaduct all the way to West 9th Street.  Getting the trains to their proper locations requires some thought.

 

Currently G_zpslbu6dv44.png (176) trains cannot access the lower level from Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets.  These trains curve from that station to and from Bergen Street.  I remember that old GG locals used come and go from the upper level of Bergen Street with relative ease without making any sharp curves.  This function still remains in the fantasy system.  However to get the G_zpslbu6dv44.png (177) trains to West 9th Street they must gain access to the lower level.  That is why ramps are added north of Carroll Street.  The G_zpslbu6dv44.png (178) trains stop on the Carroll Street lower level and stop on the Bergen Street upper level.

 

The F_zpswtusnrox.png (179) train however does have access to the two levels coming from Jay Street.  It will need access to the Smith Street viaduct and must run as a local, so it will stop on both the Bergen Street and Carroll Street upper levels as it does today.

 

The V_zpsvthlr23u.png (180) train shares tracks with the F_zpswtusnrox.png (181) train from Jay Street northward, so it has access to the Smith Street lower level.  Since this train needs access to West 9th Street it will stop on both the Bergen Street and Carroll Street lower levels.  It is possible to have this train stop on the upper level at Bergen Street and the use the new ramps to get to the lower level of Carroll Street also, but more bottlenecks may occur given that both the F_zpswtusnrox.png (182) and G_zpslbu6dv44.png (183) trains use the upper level.  Also a switch is needed just north of the Carroll Street lower level station to gain access to the existing tracks on the lower level.  Without this switch V_zpsvthlr23u.png (184) trains would continue on the current lower level right of way, bypass Carroll Street, and head to the viaduct.

 

That being said, a new FDiamond_zpsovknrbm8.png (185) express train will also use the Smith Street lower level and the switch north of Carroll Street will direct these trains to bypass Carroll Street and head to the viaduct using the express tracks there as well as along MacDonald Avenue.. These trains run to and from Kings Highway in one direction only during rush hours.  This is the only non-Staten Island train added to the fantasy.

 

Along West 9th Street the G_zpslbu6dv44.png (186) and V_zpsvthlr23u.png (187) trains run along it making a stop at Columbia Street before heading south along Dwight Street to the eastern Red Hook Tunnel to Staten Island.  Some G_zpslbu6dv44.png (188) trains do not make the turn to Staten Island and continue westward along Verona Street to Governors Island where they terminate there.  Trains running to Staten Island must cross over the tracks of trains coming from Governors Island into Brooklyn.

 

The T_zpsfxy0blso.png (189) train comes from Staten Island using the western Red Hook Tunnel.  This train does not make any stops in Brooklyn, but runs under Richards Street before turning on Verona Street and heading to Governors Island.  Its tracks do not interfere with any on the G_zpslbu6dv44.png (190) line tracks.  There is a 4 track station on Governors Island.

 

SIBklyn2cx_zpswgognt8e.jpg (191)

Edited by +Young+
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The following is a revision to the Red Hook area track map.  Added were descriptions along the Smith Street right of way along with the Manhattan bound T_zpsfxy0blso.png trains running under the G_zpslbu6dv44.png line tracks on Verona Street.

 

SIBklyn2cx_zpshjsy6d0z.jpg

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Next up is the track map showing the approach to and from the Owls Head Tunnel in Brooklyn as well as the connections to trains from Staten Island to the 4th Avenue subway and the Triboro RX. The explanation is quite detailed and could make a BVE simulation worthwhile for enthusiasts.

 

The first station in Brooklyn coming from Staten Island is at 67th Street and Colonial Road.  The center island platform station itself resembles a continuation of the the tube under the Narrows.  East of this station W_zpssvg64ivi.png trains switch away and under X_zpsohxgb1re.png trains and loop north near 67th Street and 3rd Avenue, running under Leif Ericson Park and the Bay Ridge Towers to meet up at a wye near 64th Street and 4th Avenue.  This is the location where the meetup with the 4th Avenue subway occurs.  The wye also serves as the point where N_zpsxd8vtbyc.jpg trains connect to the Sea Beach right of way.  It is also possible to have trains from Staten Island connect directly to the Sea Beach right of way at this point.  The only purpose for this is to get Staten Island trains to and from the Coney Island Yards and Shops.  Once on 4th Avenue the W_zpssvg64ivi.png trains could run on either the express or local tracks along 4th Avenue thanks to switches north of the wye.  In order to not congest the express tracks W_zpssvg64ivi.png trains run as locals.

 

The X_zpsohxgb1re.png trains running east of the 67th Street station continue along that street to a stop at 4th Avenue where a transfer to the R_zpskgirulrk.png train is possible at the Bay Ridge Avenue station.  East of this station the tracks swing away from 67th Street running to a point just north of 65th Street between 5th and 6th Avenues where the tracks exit the subway to meet up with the tracks of the old Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR near 6th Avenue.  This junction is the connection point to existing tracks that will form the Triboro RX and run all the way up to the Bronx through Brooklyn and Queens.  These tracks eventually cross under the Sea Beach right of way at 8th Avenue where a station has been constructed allowing a full transfer to N_zpsxd8vtbyc.jpg trains at that location.  Further east the Triboro RX runs north and parallel to the Sea Beach right of way.  At Fort Hamilton Parkway both the N_zpsxd8vtbyc.jpg and X_zpsohxgb1re.png make a stop there and a full transfer between the separate tracks exists.  It is NOT possible for either train to share tracks at any point east of the wye on 4th Avenue.  Further description of tracks along the Triboro RX is for another discussion.

 

SIBklyn1cx_zps3ukzl3ae.jpg

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LMAO at the previous 2 posts. You really think that a track can make a turn right away after diverging from the main track? It takes at least half a train length to get enough vertical distance between the two levels before one of them can duck or fly over the other. I can tell you (from just casual observation) that the express tracks will not be making such a connection as described in your diagram south of 59 Street. The local tracks were designed to do that though. Same comment to the junction west of Columbia–9 Streets, unless it's a level junction.

 

Carroll Street's junction checks out though. There aren't any problems with it on the surface, though that junction is going to be a big choke point for (F) and (G) trains. Why should the (F) and (G) have to merge at Bergen Street just to make that one station stop?

Edited by CenSin

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LMAO at the previous 2 posts. You really think that a track can make a turn right away after diverging from the main track? It takes at least half a train length to get enough vertical distance between the two levels before one of them can duck or fly over the other. I can tell you (from just casual observation) that the express tracks will not be making such a connection as described in your diagram south of 59 Street. The local tracks were designed to do that though. Same comment to the junction west of Columbia–9 Streets, unless it's a level junction.

 

Carroll Street's junction checks out though. There aren't any problems with it on the surface, though that junction is going to be a big choke point for (F) and (G) trains. Why should the (F) and (G) have to merge at Bergen Street just to make that one station stop?

 

Can you give me some insight on how to correct this?

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Can you give me some insight on how to correct this?

Give trains room to ascend and descend. The general rule of thumb is that it takes half a train length for two tracks at the same level to diverge vertically into two tracks on different levels. When I say different level, I mean the tracks can pass over one another. A track ascending on a ramp at 5% grade can rise 15 feet over a distance of 300 feet (half a train length). Once you work out geometry of the ramps, you can proceed to plot the curves. For fantasy lines, it's not really an issue, but it comes into play when you plan for modification of existing lines.

 

You can't make a spur from the express tracks at 59 Street because there is 0 distance between the ramp and the curve. There is no tangent track to connect a spur to for the northbound express track. The curve and the Bay Ridge tracks on the upper level effectively cut off any possibility of a spur that way. Think of this as a clearance problem. You know how some highways have bridges crossing over it, and that because of the small space between the bridge and the road, vehicles of certain height are banned?

Edited by CenSin

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