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East New York

NYCT Bus orders through 2019

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You're just looking at figures... I'm thinking about actually riding those buses... Shocks shot and some of the atrocious experiences I've had on some of those buses... They lasted alright, and the passengers were miserable riding them... No A/C on numerous occasions, etc.  But yeah they held up... lol

 

 

Couldn't have said it better myself 

 

Right, except.

 

What we're talking about is longevity, not current riding conditions, which is why I've said what I said. The 1800s up to the low 2000s have outlasted their predicted retirement predictions, so yeah, who takes care of what does not matter, it's a matter of how they'll hold up in a matter of years. Everyone said that those 1800s up to the 2000s would retire fast because of Yukon's crappy maintenace.....nope, the 2700s retired before the majority of those.

 

The only thing that really makes the Prevost look like they wont hold up is their body panels. Overall testing at Altoona says that they'll make the 12 year mark and depending on how well they hold up, they can make 15-20 years.

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The only thing that really makes the Prevost look like they wont hold up is their body panels. Overall testing at Altoona says that they'll make the 12 year mark and depending on how well they hold up, they can make 15-20 years.

 

I mean bolt bus, and greyhound had prevosts for quite some time now and they don't seem to have too many issues. 

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I mean bolt bus, and greyhound had prevosts for quite some time now and they don't seem to have too many issues. 

Different operating environments. Hound and Bolt Bus Prevosts are cruising along on the smooth highway 90 percent of the time, which is what OTR coaches were made for. NYC Prevosts gotta drive though a lot of stop and go traffic, plus crappy NYC streets.

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Different operating environments. Hound and Bolt Bus Prevosts are cruising along on the smooth highway 90 percent of the time, which is what OTR coaches were made for. NYC Prevosts gotta drive though a lot of stop and go traffic, plus crappy NYC streets.

They're also slightly different models, what we have is spec'd for transit usage. Greyhound/Boltbus units are spec'd for OTR usage.

 

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I believe someone here (I don't remember if it was ENY) saying that the Prevosts have a better fuel economy than the MCI's. Would that be a deciding factor (given that there's no federal money involved).

 

 

The Prevosts are attractive to the (MTA) mainly because they are cheaper than the MCIs. However, as a taxpayer and an express bus rider, I don't feel that the Prevosts give the (MTA) the best bang for their buck. The MCIs can take deal with taking more beatings than those Prevosts.  I just came back from a session in Parkchester... Used two rather old MCIs on the BxM6 and the AC was great, seats were great... Those buses are pushing 10 years old and for their age they are in fantastic condition.  

 

It's much more to it than that, and because you are only an average rider, this is why you would feel the MTA isn't or won't be getting their monies worth. 

 

Now as an engineer, analyst, and consultant, I can tell you that you are likely wrong in this department. I am very familiar with Prevost products, and have been ever since 1995 when Prevost, LFS, and RTS operations were merged under the same roof. 

 

The Prevost is a very high quality bus, and has always been a luxury bus. MTA was able to negotiate a great price, and they are better on fuel. in another 10 years, we will be able to take another look. However, until then, the X3-45 has a very impressive record that you may not know about. So let me run it down for you. 

 

This bus didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Even though this is only major transit application for a Prevost, Greyhound buses get much more of a pounding than ours do if you add up maintenance, and number of passenger seat/miles over time. Those buses are running 24 hours a day with an average of about 7 maintenance days per year. Because it has a wheelbase longer than that of the MCI, it actually has a smoother ride, and it has earned the nickname "Smooth Operator." The first 90 test buses were a major deciding factor in MTA placing a 300 bus order. Not only are these buses doing very well, maintenance isn't projected to rise above any estimated lifetime costs, and may actually be lower than expected. They are great on gas, and save about 70,000 gallons per bus, per year. Multiply that by 389 buses and thats tons of cash saved. The bus did exceptionally well in Altoona, and now sets the benchmark for Commuter transit. MCI is by far the industry leader, however as of late, Prevost has completely changed the game.

 

As it stands, the only thing MCI has over Prevost is a taller bus, which translates into more head room. Until MCI actually steps their game up again, Prevost will continue to give them a run for their money. Out of the next 425 Express buses to come, the first 267 iirc, will be awarded by years end. Moving forward in the future, MCI needs to reduce the fuel economy, and make sure these buses are going to last as long as they always have. Lets not forget MTA canceled MCI orders the last time due to multiple issues.

 

Prevost Products are 20 years proven, and NYC is NOT the most demanding customer when it comes to the need for reliability and durability as most may think. In 2011, the Secret Service selected the Prevost X3-45 over the MCI D and J series buses for the first ever official and permanent Presidential Motor Fleet, now nicknamed Ground Force One.

 

Which Depot takes care of what fleet does not matter, it's about how long they can last over time.

 

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Facts!

 

You're just looking at figures... I'm thinking about actually riding those buses... Shocks shot and some of the atrocious experiences I've had on some of those buses... They lasted alright, and the passengers were miserable riding them... No A/C on numerous occasions, etc.  But yeah they held up... lol

 

He's not just looking at the figures. There's a factor of how the buses run as a whole group or series. Clearly components will break down over time. That's life. A great bus, will almost always outlast its components, which have to be serviced or replaced regularly.

 

Different operating environments. Hound and Bolt Bus Prevosts are cruising along on the smooth highway 90 percent of the time, which is what OTR coaches were made for. NYC Prevosts gotta drive though a lot of stop and go traffic, plus crappy NYC streets.

 

That's true in most cases. However, in the northeast where there is a lot of stop and go, and short hops. Especially in and out of New York, tri-state, DC and Virginia. This also goes for the Midwest where the roads are sometimes worse than those of NY, and some of these buses are stopping almost as frequently as MTA commuter buses. Not only that but MTA Express passengers aren't as hard on the buses as Greyhound passengers are either. Their wheelchair lifts get cycled 10 times more than our, and they cary 3 times more passengers, and travel hundreds of thousands more miles than ours.

 

We actually can and ALWAYS have used Greyhound as a reference point and benchmark because of how their buses are used. They get more of a beating than MTA buses ever will, or any other coach bus for that matter. Because of this, in the 70's, 80's, MTA evaluated the operations of Greyhound, and to a lesser extent NJT. The first Coaches introduced to the fleet were in fact ex-Greyhound units. MTA decided that if the buses could last 12-15 years with Greyhound they would be good enough for Transit.

 

It wasn't long after Greyhound introduced the X3-45 that MTA became interested in it as well. 

 

They're also slightly different models, what we have is spec'd for transit usage. Greyhound/Boltbus units are spec'd for OTR usage.

 

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They are slightly different, however those buses with the Volvo engines are spec'd almost identical to ours. The only "real transit specs" are the doors and driver area and controls.... Other than that there is essentially no difference between an OTR bus and an Commuter bus these days. Commuter buses just have less accessories. 

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It's much more to it than that, and because you are only an average rider, this is why you would feel the MTA isn't or won't be getting their monies worth. 

 

Now as an engineer, analyst, and consultant, I can tell you that you are likely wrong in this department. I am very familiar with Prevost products, and have been ever since 1995 when Prevost, LFS, and RTS operations were merged under the same roof. 

 

The Prevost is a very high quality bus, and has always been a luxury bus. MTA was able to negotiate a great price, and they are better on fuel. in another 10 years, we will be able to take another look. However, until then, the X3-45 has a very impressive record that you may not know about. So let me run it down for you. 

 

This bus didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Even though this is only major transit application for a Prevost, Greyhound buses get much more of a pounding than ours do if you add up maintenance, and number of passenger seat/miles over time. Those buses are running 24 hours a day with an average of about 7 maintenance days per year. Because it has a wheelbase longer than that of the MCI, it actually has a smoother ride, and it has earned the nickname "Smooth Operator." The first 90 test buses were a major deciding factor in MTA placing a 300 bus order. Not only are these buses doing very well, maintenance isn't projected to rise above any estimated lifetime costs, and may actually be lower than expected. They are great on gas, and save about 70,000 gallons per bus, per year. Multiply that by 389 buses and thats tons of cash saved. The bus did exceptionally well in Altoona, and now sets the benchmark for Commuter transit. MCI is by far the industry leader, however as of late, Prevost has completely changed the game.

 

As it stands, the only thing MCI has over Prevost is a taller bus, which translates into more head room. Until MCI actually steps their game up again, Prevost will continue to give them a run for their money. Out of the next 425 Express buses to come, the first 267 iirc, will be awarded by years end. Moving forward in the future, MCI needs to reduce the fuel economy, and make sure these buses are going to last as long as they always have. Lets not forget MTA canceled MCI orders the last time due to multiple issues.

 

Prevost Products are 20 years proven, and NYC is NOT the most demanding customer when it comes to the need for reliability and durability as most may think. In 2011, the Secret Service selected the Prevost X3-45 over the MCI D and J series buses for the first ever official and permanent Presidential Motor Fleet, now nicknamed Ground Force One.

 

 

Facts!

 

 

He's not just looking at the figures. There's a factor of how the buses run as a whole group or series. Clearly components will break down over time. That's life. A great bus, will almost always outlast its components, which have to be serviced or replaced regularly.

I can live with just being an average rider.  Ultimately I care about comfort, and those Prevosts have not been comfortable.  I even wrote to the (MTA) about it and I know of a lot of other average express bus riders that hate them as well. The (MTA) of course shot back that they've received "great feedback" about them.  Of course they'll say that given the savings that they're getting from them. lol I just hope somehow that MCI can win the bid and get their act together.  Some luxury when the leg room is atrocious.  It's something that other members here have mentioned as well.   

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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I can live with just being an average rider.  Ultimately I care about comfort, and those Prevosts have not been comfortable.  I even wrote to the (MTA) about it and I know of a lot of other average express bus riders that hate them as well. The (MTA) of course shot back that they've received "great feedback" about them.  Of course they'll say that given the savings that they're getting from them. lol I just hope somehow that MCI can win the bid and get their act together.  Some luxury when the leg room is atrocious.  It's something that other members here have mentioned as well.

 

I understand where you are coming from, and I'm not taking anything away from how you feel. However, the MTA is correct... I've conducted several surveys personally since 2400 went into service in 2012.

 

I think they are quite comfortable, as do at least 2,000 of your fellow average riders. Now why again are they not comfortable for you? And why do you not think they will last as long as the MCI's because of the body panels?? I'm not exactly sure what you mean right there. Body panels lower maintenance costs.... RTS.... Xcelsior..... LFS..... If those get beat up my the many fender benders each year, it costs more to have the whole section replaced, when I body panel could have prevente that. Case in point... All the New Flyers. The lower body panels are easily replaceable and as the first point of impact, they reduce the chances of the body under the panels getting severely damaged in minor incidents.

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I understand where you are coming from, and I'm not taking anything away from how you feel. However, the MTA is correct... I've conducted several surveys personally since 2400 went into service in 2012.

 

I think they are quite comfortable, as do at least 2,000 of your fellow average riders. Now why again are they not comfortable for you? And why do you not think they will last as long as the MCI's because of the body panels?? I'm not exactly sure what you mean right there. Body panels lower maintenance costs.... RTS.... Xcelsior..... LFS..... If those get beat up my the many fender benders each year, it costs more to have the whole section replaced, when I body panel could have prevente that. Case in point... All the New Flyers. The lower body panels are easily replaceable and as the first point of impact, they reduce the chances of the body under the panels getting severely damaged in minor incidents.

At 6'4", my issue is the leg room. For whatever reason, there seems to be less leg room on the Prevosts compared to the MCIs in addition to the awkward spots for the wheelchairs.  The seats on the newer Prevosts seem to be exactly the same now as the ones used on the MCIs in terms of the style so that is no longer a pet peeve of mine, as the ones on the 24XX buses are more of a nuisance to use.  I actually like the newer Prevosts overall (i.e. signage is easy on the eyes), but there are definitely some tweaks needed.  The stop request volume is wayyyy too loud (I actually got a headache going to and from Staten Island on two new Prevosts even with my earbuds in).  If those things were fixed, I wouldn't mind them as much, but given the lengthy commutes on them that I tend to have when going to and from those two issues are a real pain.

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At 6'4", my issue is the leg room. For whatever reason, there seems to be less leg room on the Prevosts compared to the MCIs in addition to the awkward spots for the wheelchairs.  The seats on the newer Prevosts seem to be exactly the same now as the ones used on the MCIs in terms of the style so that is no longer a pet peeve of mine, as the ones on the 24XX buses are more of a nuisance to use.  I actually like the newer Prevosts overall (i.e. signage is easy on the eyes), but there are definitely some tweaks needed.  The stop request volume is wayyyy too loud (I actually got a headache going to and from Staten Island on two new Prevosts even with my earbuds in).  If those things were fixed, I wouldn't mind them as much, but given the lengthy commutes on them that I tend to have when going to and from those two issues are a real pain.

Ok those are actually valid complaints. The bus isn't as tall as the MCI, but the pitch on the seats are just about the same. The issue is the fact that they sit a bit lower than those of the MCI. This means that when someone your height sits in the seat it appears that there is less leg room because it's lower, and your knees are at a higher level. Yes the seats are the same specification as the ones for MCI. You should still have enough room in those seats, just not as much head room as you would on an MCI.

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Ok those are actually valid complaints. The bus isn't as tall as the MCI, but the pitch on the seats are just about the same. The issue is the fact that they sit a bit lower than those of the MCI. This means that when someone your height sits in the seat it appears that there is less leg room because it's lower, and your knees are at a higher level. Yes the seats are the same specification as the ones for MCI. You should still have enough room in those seats, just not as much head room as you would on an MCI.

Are there any plans to adjust the stop request volume on them?

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Are there any plans to adjust the stop request volume on them?

I ended up taking the X1 to Staten Island to visit a friend of mine who lives there. First time on a Prevost and its funny that was honestly the first flaw i noticed about them. I mean they ride really, really smooth but it was a brand new one. I still definitely prefer the seating and look of an MCI. 

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I ended up taking the X1 to Staten Island to visit a friend of mine who lives there. First time on a Prevost and its funny that was honestly the first flaw i noticed about them. I mean they ride really, really smooth but it was a brand new one. I still definitely prefer the seating and look of an MCI.

 

Same here. When I return to Staten Island, I always feel better transferring to the bus to get back to Riverdale since it is all MCIs.

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Right, except.

 

What we're talking about is longevity, not current riding conditions, which is why I've said what I said. The 1800s up to the low 2000s have outlasted their predicted retirement predictions, so yeah, who takes care of what does not matter, it's a matter of how they'll hold up in a matter of years. Everyone said that those 1800s up to the 2000s would retire fast because of Yukon's crappy maintenace.....nope, the 2700s retired before the majority of those.

 

The only thing that really makes the Prevost look like they wont hold up is their body panels. Overall testing at Altoona says that they'll make the 12 year mark and depending on how well they hold up, they can make 15-20 years.

 

I'll give you that that a good and a fair point. But If I was the MTA and I had a choice of replacing buses from CP VS Yonkers, I'd pick CP first. 

 

I understand where you are coming from, and I'm not taking anything away from how you feel. However, the MTA is correct... I've conducted several surveys personally since 2400 went into service in 2012.

 

I think they are quite comfortable, as do at least 2,000 of your fellow average riders. Now why again are they not comfortable for you? And why do you not think they will last as long as the MCI's because of the body panels?? I'm not exactly sure what you mean right there. Body panels lower maintenance costs.... RTS.... Xcelsior..... LFS..... If those get beat up my the many fender benders each year, it costs more to have the whole section replaced, when I body panel could have prevente that. Case in point... All the New Flyers. The lower body panels are easily replaceable and as the first point of impact, they reduce the chances of the body under the panels getting severely damaged in minor incidents.

 

Honestly to me the only reason they aren't as comfy, is that since the seats are still new, they are stiff. On a lot of older buses, it seems as if the seats were beaten up to a point where they've become soft.

 

At 6'4", my issue is the leg room. For whatever reason, there seems to be less leg room on the Prevosts compared to the MCIs in addition to the awkward spots for the wheelchairs.  The seats on the newer Prevosts seem to be exactly the same now as the ones used on the MCIs in terms of the style so that is no longer a pet peeve of mine, as the ones on the 24XX buses are more of a nuisance to use.  I actually like the newer Prevosts overall (i.e. signage is easy on the eyes), but there are definitely some tweaks needed.  The stop request volume is wayyyy too loud (I actually got a headache going to and from Staten Island on two new Prevosts even with my earbuds in).  If those things were fixed, I wouldn't mind them as much, but given the lengthy commutes on them that I tend to have when going to and from those two issues are a real pain.

 

As for leg room it sucks 100%, I have long legs too and I just seem to never have enough leg room, but this is on all buses. Usually I put my feet up and rest my knee on the seat in front of me without kicking it. Other than that, all I can say is sit on the right side, some of the seats on the right side have just a little bit more space. More noticeably in the back than anywhere else. (This is based of of personal experience)  

 

Are there any plans to adjust the stop request volume on them?

 

I've noticed on some of the newer ones like the 26XX's and 27XX's the bells are a little quieter as compared to the 25XX's, other than that the only thing I can recommend it to sit in the back, because the bell is in the front of the bus.  

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I'll give you that that a good and a fair point. But If I was the MTA and I had a choice of replacing buses from CP VS Yonkers, I'd pick CP first. 

 

 

Honestly to me the only reason they aren't as comfy, is that since the seats are still new, they are stiff. On a lot of older buses, it seems as if the seats were beaten up to a point where they've become soft.

 

 

As for leg room it sucks 100%, I have long legs too and I just seem to never have enough leg room, but this is on all buses. Usually I put my feet up and rest my knee on the seat in front of me without kicking it. Other than that, all I can say is sit on the right side, some of the seats on the right side have just a little bit more space. More noticeably in the back than anywhere else. (This is based of of personal experience)  

 

 

I've noticed on some of the newer ones like the 26XX's and 27XX's the bells are a little quieter as compared to the 25XX's, other than that the only thing I can recommend it to sit in the back, because the bell is in the front of the bus.  

I always sit in the back or at the very minimum towards the middle of the bus unless I know the driver and feel like chatting with him.  As for the seat situation, I usually make it clear that no one is to recline in front of me, and if they do I will block them with my leg.  I had a lady a few months ago on a BxM11 bus that learned the hard way.  I have no problem kicking the chair if my leg is being crushed, which is what I did and then told her to either move to the other chair or move to another area completely, as she was crushing my leg.  She opted to stay but did not recline, as she got the message loud and clear.

 

Unless you're a idiot, you usually can tell who has limited leg room and who doesn't.  Out of courtesy, I never recline on someone's legs or if I do recline at all just a touch so as not to cause any discomfort to the person behind me.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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I always sit in the back or at the very minimum towards the middle of the bus unless I know the driver and feel like chatting with him.  As for the seat situation, I usually make it clear that no one is to recline in front of me, and if they do I will block them with my leg.  I had a lady a few months ago on a BxM11 bus that learned the hard way.  I have no problem kicking the chair if my leg is being crushed, which is what I did and then told her to either move to the other chair or move to another area completely, as she was crushing my leg.  She opted to stay but did not recline, as she got the message loud and clear.

 

Unless you're a idiot, you usually can tell who has limited leg room and who doesn't.  Out of courtesy, I never recline on someone's legs or if I do recline at all just a touch so as not to cause any discomfort to the person behind me.

Makes sense, one thing I do is always put the seat in front of me in the upright position before sitting. 

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Makes sense, one thing I do is always put the seat in front of me in the upright position before sitting. 

I do the same thing, but with both of them.  I rarely get peak rush hour buses where they'll be packed, so I pick and choose my buses very carefully to avoid having to sit near people anyway, so those who do sit in front of me rarely recline, knowing I'm a regular and if there is someone sitting in front of my usual seat, they will usually pull the seat up for me before I sit down.  

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I'll give you that that a good and a fair point. But If I was the MTA and I had a choice of replacing buses from CP VS Yonkers, I'd pick CP first.

 

 

Honestly to me the only reason they aren't as comfy, is that since the seats are still new, they are stiff. On a lot of older buses, it seems as if the seats were beaten up to a point where they've become soft.

 

 

As for leg room it sucks 100%, I have long legs too and I just seem to never have enough leg room, but this is on all buses. Usually I put my feet up and rest my knee on the seat in front of me without kicking it. Other than that, all I can say is sit on the right side, some of the seats on the right side have just a little bit more space. More noticeably in the back than anywhere else. (This is based of of personal experience)

 

 

I've noticed on some of the newer ones like the 26XX's and 27XX's the bells are a little quieter as compared to the 25XX's, other than that the only thing I can recommend it to sit in the back, because the bell is in the front of the bus.

Lol no no no no no, the bell is not ringing from the front of the bus, it rings through the speakers across the bus! I would be sitting in the back & hear the bell ring above me, I'll look up & see a speaker, I'm like, "that's why it's so damn loud".

 

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Lol no no no no no, the bell is not ringing from the front of the bus, it rings through the speakers across the bus! I would be sitting in the back & hear the bell ring above me, I'll look up & see a speaker, I'm like, "that's why it's so damn loud".

 

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Exactly... Sitting in the back won't make a difference.  :lol:

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Lol no no no no no, the bell is not ringing from the front of the bus, it rings through the speakers across the bus! I would be sitting in the back & hear the bell ring above me, I'll look up & see a speaker, I'm like, "that's why it's so damn loud".

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That's why I think it's an issue on some buses not all of them. Because I remember for some SI Prevost that were quiet, and not a 2400's. I think some of them aren't link to he speakers on the bus. Or I just don't pay attention, probably both. Edited by IAlam

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