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East New York

NYCT Bus orders through 2019

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Unfortunately, this is a lot more complicated that you make it sound. the SCR system (exhaust after treatment system) that is mandatory for EPA compliance is located in the rear of the bus where the A/C used to be....that's why the A/C is on the roof.

Well they have to replaced somehow, so the question is when?  I for one am sick of seeing those buses on the M66 and M72.  Riders deserve new buses on those lines.  If that's the sole reason for these RTS buses on those lines, then the (MTA) needs to find a resolution to the problem and soon.  Those buses can't last forever.  I had to ride one of those buses on the M9 the other night and I was not at all thrilled to have an RTS when I had a ton of stuff with me having to schlepp up those damn stairs.  Much easier on the newer low floor buses.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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Unfortunately, this is a lot more complicated that you make it sound. the SCR system (exhaust after treatment system) that is mandatory for EPA compliance is located in the rear of the bus where the A/C used to be....that's why the A/C is on the roof.

 

You're right. I remember Orion started going with rooftop AC's because their back space was almost entirely taken up with the exhaust treatment system. Well, some development will have to be made by vendors with the AC and exhaust treatment systems to try and fit all of it.

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Unfortunately, this is a lot more complicated that you make it sound. the SCR system (exhaust after treatment system) that is mandatory for EPA compliance is located in the rear of the bus where the A/C used to be....that's why the A/C is on the roof.

MTA has been evaluating how they are going to replace those RTS buses for quite sometime now.... Gillig manages to fit theirs in the back still as an option, so I'm sure New Flyer can figure something out...

 

Well they have to replaced somehow, so the question is when?  I for one am sick of seeing those buses on the M66 and M72.  Riders deserve new buses on those lines.  If that's the sole reason for these RTS buses on those lines, then the (MTA) needs to find a resolution to the problem and soon.  Those buses can't last forever.  I had to ride one of those buses on the M9 the other night and I was not at all thrilled to have an RTS when I had a ton of stuff with me having to schlepp up those damn stairs.  Much easier on the newer low floor buses.

The average rider doesn't care about what bus they get as long as the climate control works and the bus in on time.... Not only that, but in a recent survey I found that many Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens riders couldn't care less which bus comes.... I have even seen little old ladies opt for an RTS when a low floor pulled up right in front of it... I've noticed this many times on the B41, B44, and B46.

 

Riders don't "deserve" new buses, they have to work with what they are given for fleet purposes.... Only people like us and people that have problems with steps care about what buses on on specific lines.... And those cross town buses will remain all RTS until the TA finds suitable replacements. You may be tired of seeing those buses, yet it's still the most popular bus in NYC... There are many drivers with seniority that refuse to pull out anything other than an RTS unless they are forced to. For the buses to be as old as they are, they are still quite reliable and in excellent condition compared to other models of the same age.

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Riders don't "deserve" new buses, they have to work with what they are given for fleet purposes.... Only people like us and people that have problems with steps care about what buses on on specific lines.... And those cross town buses will remain all RTS until the TA finds suitable replacements. You may be tired of seeing those buses, yet it's still the most popular bus in NYC... There are many drivers with seniority that refuse to pull out anything other than an RTS unless they are forced to. For the buses to be as old as they are, they are still quite reliable and in excellent condition compared to other models of the same age.

That's just it though.  Those RTS buses still have the old school wheelchair set up and reliability has to factor in at this point.  And yes, riders do deserve new buses, especially when just about all other lines are getting new buses.  I don't know what passengers you surveyed, but the riders I took the express bus with on Staten Island were well aware of the hand-me-downs we received before newer buses started coming in... No AC, seats broken or missing in some cases, etc.  I've also heard of passengers elsewhere in South Brooklyn complaining and wanting new buses, which they got in the form of Prevosts.  In any event, I hope they get it sorted out soon.  By the time they do it could well be a good 4 years before new buses hit those crosstown lines.

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Quill has a problem, which is that there have been no reasonable replacements to the 9-ft RTSes proposed for the 66/72 crosstowns yet. Until something gets worked out, that's an issue.

 

 

So I'm guessing the LFS is still too high for those underpasses.

 

Not really, they can go under, it's just that they worry about the swaying. The Xcelsiors sway much, much more than the LFS, as the LFS is a heavier bus. Between the Xcelsior and the LFS, the LFS would be the better option for the M66 and M72. With the Xcelsiors being lightweight, if operators take those turns through the transverse at a considerable speed, the front will sway quite a bit.

 

Well they have to replaced somehow, so the question is when?  I for one am sick of seeing those buses on the M66 and M72.  Riders deserve new buses on those lines.  If that's the sole reason for these RTS buses on those lines, then the (MTA) needs to find a resolution to the problem and soon.  Those buses can't last forever.  I had to ride one of those buses on the M9 the other night and I was not at all thrilled to have an RTS when I had a ton of stuff with me having to schlepp up those damn stairs.  Much easier on the newer low floor buses.

The problem is, those same folks that take the M66 & M72 also complain about the lack of space in the low-floor buses on the M1-5 and M104, especially the elderly. You can never really please them Upper East Side/Upper West Side folk. Most of them do prefer the high floors over the low floors because they can hold a lot more people than the low floors and it's much easier to get out of.

 

They've had low floors on the M66 and M72 at times last year and those folks did not like it. Buses were crushed and folks had to pass them up. Yeah, the RTSs are old, but those folks that take the M66 and M72 prefer it over the low floor buses.

 

Another thing is that manufacturers won't tend to any modifications needed for a specific type of bus for those routes. There's not much the MTA can really do about it. Unless they have a wizard that can magically create buses specific  to those two lines, having to spend x amount of dollars for a fleet of buses specifically for that route is a waste. The last resort they would do is reroute the buses from the transverse altogether, which would be the worst thing to do.

Edited by Cait Sith

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The problem is, those same folks that take the M66 & M72 also complain about the lack of space in the low-floor buses on the M1-5 and M104, especially the elderly. You can never really please them Upper East Side/Upper West Side folk. Most of them do prefer the high floors over the low floors because they can hold a lot more people than the low floors and it's much easier to get out of.

 

They've had low floors on the M66 and M72 at times last year and those folks did not like it. Buses were crushed and folks had to pass them up. Yeah, the RTSs are old, but those folks that take the M66 and M72 prefer it over the low floor buses.

 

Another thing is that manufacturers won't tend to any modifications needed for a specific type of bus for those routes. There's not much the MTA can really do about it. Unless they have a wizard that can magically create buses specific  to those two lines, having to spend x amount of dollars for a fleet of buses specifically for that route is a waste.

I have to say that I have to agree with them about the low floor buses that are 40 footers.  I have been on some really crushed buses and there simply isn't any room to stand anywhere, especially on the Madison Avenue buses, but with all of the elderly that get on, the trade off is quicker boarding and de-boarding.  Nevertheless, they are usually packed to the rafters, so I understand where they are coming from.  I think the layout of those buses just isn't good.  I prefer the Xcelsiors and the other newer buses for that reason.  There seems to be more standing room, even if that means fewer seats.  Given the loading guidelines of the (MTA) these days, more times than not you will be standing, unless it's a line that doesn't get too busy like the M50.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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Not really, they can go under, it's just that they worry about the swaying. The Xcelsiors sway much, much more than the LFS, as the LFS is a heavier bus. Between the Xcelsior and the LFS, the LFS would be the better option for the M66 and M72. With the Xcelsiors being lightweight, if operators take those turns through the transverse at a considerable speed, the front will sway quite a bit.

 

True, but there really is an issue about the clearance on the side of the transverse. You can fit a Prevost through there if you stay towards the center, but I went by and checked today and the clearance on the sidewalk-edges of the transverse is 9'2". That's a big risk if an op has to swerve or avoid the dead-center of the road in a bus more than 9 feet tall. 

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True, but there really is an issue about the clearance on the side of the transverse. You can fit a Prevost through there if you stay towards the center, but I went by and checked today and the clearance on the sidewalk-edges of the transverse is 9'2". That's a big risk if an op has to swerve or avoid the dead-center of the road in a bus more than 9 feet tall. 

 

Well, MCI J4500s and Vanhools go through that transverse, both of which are taller than the Prevost and are top heavy and sway a lot themselves. And they both go through there at considerable speeds.

 

 

 

The only real way to know is for them to test it out. They've had artics go through that transverse and the rear portion of the artic sways quite a bit. The 40fters shouldn't since there's a better balance and weight distribution to them.

Edited by Cait Sith
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Why do passengers "deserve" new buses? It's not as though they're paying for a service that advertised that it would only run new buses. I pay more for a slice of pizza than people in a lot of cities do for a bus fare. Having A/C and wheelchair accessibility is about the only thing passengers can reasonably demand.

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Why do passengers "deserve" new buses? It's not as though they're paying for a service that advertised that it would only run new buses. I pay more for a slice of pizza than people in a lot of cities do for a bus fare. Having A/C and wheelchair accessibility is about the only thing passengers can reasonably demand.

Because taxpayers contribute towards new buses that's why, so they should get a share of the pie.  Those new buses should be allocated to all depots not just some.  It's the same reason why numerous communities have contacted their representatives complaining about hand-me-down buses.

 

Below is one example:

 

 

 

SENATOR GOLDEN CALLS ON MTA TO PURCHASE NEW BUSES FOR BROOKLYN EXPRESS BUS ROUTES
 
Posted by Martin J. Golden on Tuesday, October 18th, 2011

 

Brooklyn – State Senator Martin J. Golden (R-C-I, Brooklyn), a member of the Metropolitan Transit Authority Captial Review Board, today is calling upon the Metropolitan Transit Authority and New York City Transit Authority to purchase new express buses to service the X27/X28 and X37/X38 routes in Brooklyn. 

 

Senator Golden is responding to the announcement that more than $113 million dollars has been awarded the United States Department of Transportation to the MTA for purposes of purchasing new buses. Senator Golden often receives complaints from the residents of Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights, Bath Beach and Bensonhurst regarding the conditions of the buses on these routes. 

 

In his letter, Senator Golden writes, “Over the years, I have also received reports that some of the buses assigned to these routes are in fact the old buses that were taken off the Staten Island routes. As far as I am concerned, new buses are long overdue for Brooklyn residents.” 

 

A copy of the letter is below.

 

-30-

 

 

 

October 18, 2011

 

Thomas Prendergast, President

 

New York City Transit Authority

 

2 Broadway

 

New York, New York 10004

 

 

 

Dear Mr. Prendergast,

 

I am writing to you at this time on behalf of the commuters of the X27/X37 and the X28/X38, routes that provide express bus service to Manhattan for the residents of Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights, Bath Beach and the Bensonhurst communities.

 

On many occasions, I have been contacted by commuters that have complained about the conditions of the buses that service these routes. Over the years, I have also received reports that some of the buses assigned to these routes are in fact the old buses that were taken off the Staten Island routes. As far as I am concerned, new buses are long overdue for Brooklyn residents.

 

This morning, I was glad to hear reports that the United States Department of Transportation has approved more than $113 million in federal money to go to the Metropolitan Transit Authority for new buses. Therefore, I write to ask that in your assignment of new buses purchased with this federal funding, the X27/X37 and the X28/X38 bus routes be strongly considered.

 

Thank you in advance for your review and I look forward to hearing from you. If you should have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me at (718) 238-6044.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Martin J. Golden

 

State Senator

Source: http://www.nysenate.gov/press-release/senator-golden-calls-mta-purchase-new-buses-brooklyn-express-bus-routes

 

There are other examples as well,  such as my community in Riverdale, where residents called for new, environmentally friendly Metro-North buses, so yes they deserve new buses just like other communities out in Queens, Brooklyn and the like.  Additionally, there were several areas in the South Bronx that received newer buses due to those buses being more environmentally friendly and the high asthma rates.  I don't see how those RTS buses can be environmentally friendly.  

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I mean, if the vehicle is disgusting and run down, that screams "I HAVEN'T RECEIVED MAINTENANCE IN A LONG TIME!", sure, but if the vehicle is still in good shape...

 

Besides, I doubt an RTS pollutes more than the 70-80 cars a crushloaded one can take off the road.

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All of the current buses running are environmentally friendly. They all use clean-burning diesel (if applicable), and with current emission standards and stringent exhaust after-treatment, are some of the most environmentally friendly vehicles on the road.

 

Long gone are the days of buses that just puff out black smoke like house chimneys.

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All of the current buses running are environmentally friendly. They all use clean-burning diesel (if applicable), and with current emission standards and stringent exhaust after-treatment, are some of the most environmentally friendly vehicles on the road.

 

Long gone are the days of buses that just puff out black smoke like house chimneys.

Heh, I've saw some supposedly "new buses" blowing out black smoke like it was no tomorrow.  Looked like the bus needed to be serviced or something.  I hadn't seen that in quite a while.  Was one of the LFSA's on the Lex line (of course) given the horrible maintenance out of Tuskegee.   I don't know what that depot is going to do when they retire the old buses.  I saw a whole bunch of them on Saturday and used one from Whole Foods when making my way back to the BxM1 to get home.  Those buses must be in bad shape.

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Heh, I've saw some supposedly "new buses" blowing out black smoke like it was no tomorrow. Looked like the bus needed to be serviced or something. I hadn't seen that in quite a while. Was one of the LFSA's on the Lex line (of course) given the horrible maintenance out of Tuskegee. I don't know what that depot is going to do when they retire the old buses. I saw a whole bunch of them on Saturday and used one from Whole Foods when making my way back to the BxM1 to get home. Those buses must be in bad shape.

Only time you gonna see smoke blow out like that is if there's something wrong with the bus, be it an exhaust or turbo problem.

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Customers deserve well-maintained buses and ones that operate according to their published schedule.

 

Taxpayers deserve buses that maximize their useful life -- through proper maintenance primarily.  And on that note, the MTA does actually do that.  Believe me, DDOT (City of Detroit) has whined for DECADES about their buses being unreliable as the reason they cannot EVER adhere to their own printed schedules -- and it is ALL down to lack of proper maintenance.  Right now (if they haven't already) they are retiring 2001-2 RTSes as well as a good portion of 2004-5 New Flyer D40s (or these buses are sitting in the lots).  Look how long the MTA has kept their RTSes running through proper maintenance.  And the usage in NYC is SIGNIFICANTLY different than on Detroit streets.  If DDOT can run RTSes into the ground but the MTA can keep them in regular service (under harsher conditions), tell me who's getting the most bang for their buck.

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Not really, they can go under, it's just that they worry about the swaying. The Xcelsiors sway much, much more than the LFS, as the LFS is a heavier bus. Between the Xcelsior and the LFS, the LFS would be the better option for the M66 and M72. With the Xcelsiors being lightweight, if operators take those turns through the transverse at a considerable speed, the front will sway quite a bit.

 

Actually, this is incorrect. the LFS and Xcelsior have almost identical curb weights. The LFS has long been one of the more lightweight buses on the market.

Edited by DaimlerBuses
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MTA has been evaluating how they are going to replace those RTS buses for quite sometime now.... Gillig manages to fit theirs in the back still as an option, so I'm sure New Flyer can figure something out...

 

.

I forgot about Gillig's design. However if New Flyer were to put the A/C back in the rear it would probably require some  major reworking to the SCR system, and I could be wrong but some structure redesign in the rear might be necessary to accommodate rear A/C. Perhaps asking New Flyer to deliver a order with a lower profile roof A/C such as the Thermo King Athenia used on the Orion VII EPA10 would work and prove the least engineering intensive option.

Edited by DaimlerBuses

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I mean, if the vehicle is disgusting and run down, that screams "I HAVEN'T RECEIVED MAINTENANCE IN A LONG TIME!", sure, but if the vehicle is still in good shape...

 

Besides, I doubt an RTS pollutes more than the 70-80 cars a crushloaded one can take off the road.

Do you even know how far an RTS gets on a gallon of fuel compared to a loaded car?

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Do you even know how far an RTS gets on a gallon of fuel compared to a loaded car?

About 2-4 miles, give or take

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Do you even know how far an RTS gets on a gallon of fuel compared to a loaded car?

Between 1 and 4 miles

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Do you even know how far an RTS gets on a gallon of fuel compared to a loaded car?

 

Even if I did before reading the two posts above me, would that somehow disprove my point?

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@BM5 - They aren't inefficient... The average on newer buses is about 2MPG higher than back then. An RTS can easily get 350 miles to a tank. Diesel does not burn like gasoline so you can't compare them to cars. It burns much slower. A bus loaded with 200 people an hour in some places greatly makes it more efficient than a car with one or a few people in it even if it gets 30MPG. A hybrid only gets 4-7MPG.

 

@DetSMART - You also have to remember that even though maintenance has always played a part in DDOT's woes, drivers and upper management are to blame just as much. Drivers would not write up service problems, have accidents they didn't report, disappear off routes and take unauthorized breaks.... I have over 50 examples over a 20 year period. Plus I'm a mechanic so I know what to look and listen for.

 

One day some years back it was about 92 degrees. I was on a Nothland bound 16, RTS #3806. I told the driver that he needed to cycle his A/C on those trash Sutrak units. If he didn't, it was going to continue to drain all the power from the bus and breakdown. He said that what he wanted.... 10 minutes later, we had no power pulling out of the stop.. Ran out of fuel one time on a D40LF on the 32..... Side swiped a FedEx truck and kept going on the 22 once. Driver pulled up smoking a cigarette on the 53 because her leader disappeared and she wanted to leave on time and didn't get a break..... DDOT's issues have come from so may places it's a shame.... And aren't they only running with 1 garage now because they sold Shoemaker, and Coolidge burned down?? Heard a bus caught on fire inside and torched a couple others with it before they could get the rest out safely.

 

That's just it though. Those RTS buses still have the old school wheelchair set up and reliability has to factor in at this point. And yes, riders do deserve new buses, especially when just about all other lines are getting new buses. I don't know what passengers you surveyed, but the riders I took the express bus with on Staten Island were well aware of the hand-me-downs we received before newer buses started coming in... No AC, seats broken or missing in some cases, etc. I've also heard of passengers elsewhere in South Brooklyn complaining and wanting new buses, which they got in the form of Prevosts. In any event, I hope they get it sorted out soon. By the time they do it could well be a good 4 years before new buses hit those crosstown lines.

The examples you keep providing reference express bus riders, which are a different breed overall... These were not the passengers that were surveyed. In addition, the express fleet average age is lower than that of the local fleet as 80% of the buses are "newer models." This is a city of nearly 6,000 buses, and everyone can't have new ones all the time.

 

I am talking about local buses, and as I said and Cait Sith stated, some just don't care or prefer high floor buses. Namely the B6. Passengers equally prefer the RTS and Xcelsior, but we're not too fond of the Orion's or the LFS'. If you get out enough you will see for yourself how passengers pass up low floors... Even the M42. You will see older people heading for an RTS over a hybrid. MTA only retired the 8600 series RTS buses because they had too. They would be 21 years old now, and to date was one of the best series of buses the TA ever had with 99% of the buses still in great condition at retirement.

 

I forgot about Gillig's design. However if New Flyer were to put the A/C back in the rear it would probably require some major reworking to the SCR system, and I could be wrong but some structure redesign in the rear might be necessary to accommodate rear A/C. Perhaps asking New Flyer to deliver a order with a lower profile roof A/C such as the Thermo King Athenia used on the Orion VII EPA10 would work and prove the least engineering intensive option.

And speaking of which, the TA could always transfer some of the E10's (3G's) to Manhattan for the routes. Those Orion's would do just fine over there.

 

Even if I did before reading the two posts above me, would that somehow disprove my point?

Not at all.. See the top of this post

Edited by East New York
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