Gap filler problems at 14th St Union sq

[Abba]

For me it seems to be an issue during the rush. It crawls until 14th St and than after 14th it runs normally.

 

 

 

.

That's because also there is heavy ridership there .It lessens after 14th.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's because also there is heavy ridership there .It lessens after 14th.

Well yeah... The location of that station makes it the choice.  I don't even think about any other subway when I'm in that area and the other options are further away with dilapidated stations to boot.  The 14th street station nearby with the trains nearby seems like a filthy rat maze.  That station should be re-done.

[BronxBombers]

That's because also there is heavy ridership there .It lessens after 14th.

 

It is still crowded after 14th too.

[Lance]

Well yeah... The location of that station makes it the choice.  I don't even think about any other subway when I'm in that area and the other options are further away with dilapidated stations to boot.  The 14th street station nearby with the trains nearby seems like a filthy rat maze.  That station should be re-done.

That's what happens when three competing companies build stations practically on top of each other and the agency that follows them has to connect all of the stations together somehow.

 

As for rebuilding the stations, this one and Union Square, that's almost comical coming from you. On one hand, you're always on about MTA waste and on the other, you're pushing for them to spend tens, if not hundreds of millions to fix stations that, while aren't the best, are not the nightmarish disasters you make them out to be. Take the Lexington Ave platforms at 14 Street. In order to straighten out the line at that location, you'd have to practically tear up the line in the vicinity of the station and excavate the land around it. It's proximity to the Broadway line would have to be considered as well. Not only do you have to question who'd pay for such a monumental task, but also how you'd sell the project to riders, especially since the Lexington Ave line would have to be split in half for this. Would riders put up with no service south of Grand Central for several years just so they don't have to wait at 14 Street for 30 extra seconds?

 

Also, to clarify my earlier comment, I'll ask you this: don't you ever get tired of saying the same thing 20 thousand times like a parrot? Yes, we get it - to you, the subway is little more than a rat-infested dump for the homeless. What are you trying to accomplish here?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's what happens when three competing companies build stations practically on top of each other and the agency that follows them has to connect all of the stations together somehow.

 

As for rebuilding the stations, this one and Union Square, that's almost comical coming from you. On one hand, you're always on about MTA waste and on the other, you're pushing for them to spend tens, if not hundreds of millions to fix stations that, while aren't the best, are not the nightmarish disasters you make them out to be. Take the Lexington Ave platforms at 14 Street. In order to straighten out the line at that location, you'd have to practically tear up the line in the vicinity of the station and excavate the land around it. It's proximity to the Broadway line would have to be considered as well. Not only do you have to question who'd pay for such a monumental task, but also how you'd sell the project to riders, especially since the Lexington Ave line would have to be split in half for this. Would riders put up with no service south of Grand Central for several years just so they don't have to wait at 14 Street for 30 extra seconds?

 

Also, to clarify my earlier comment, I'll ask you this: don't you ever get tired of saying the same thing 20 thousand times like a parrot? Yes, we get it - to you, the subway is little more than a rat-infested dump for the homeless. What are you trying to accomplish here?

Nope.  I've rode other systems around the world, and this one is a joke.  Totally overrated.... Yes it's large, but it's poorly maintained, and everything that should be done can't be done because of a million excuses, like the one you've given above.  The subway system is an example of the ineptitude of the at its finest.  They pour billions into one station while others sit for years in need of serious upgrades, and even their newest stations look pathetic when one considers how much money was "invested" into them.  Fulton Street was a billion dollar money pit and the damn doors to the entrance of the station barely work properly.  There should be more riders outraged to get things overhauled underground, and until that happens, I'll keep saying the same thing 20 thousand times like a parrot.  I have a hard time believing that a more cost-effective solution can't be found for a simple thing like gap fillers.

[Fresh Pond]

"The damn doors to the entrance of the station barely work properly..."

 

...how hard is it to push/pull a door open?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

...how hard is it to push/pull a door open?

Quite hard if the doors aren't functioning properly... Either way a station that costs as much as Fulton Street shouldn't have those sorts of issues so early on.

[Grand Concourse]

Well yeah... The location of that station makes it the choice. I don't even think about any other subway when I'm in that area and the other options are further away with dilapidated stations to boot. The 14th street station nearby with the trains nearby seems like a filthy rat maze. That station should be re-done.

it is an underground corridor from 6th to 7 av like the one from 7th to 8th av at times sq. what can you do to 'improve it'? For that matter, if you are against waste, why spend even more money on that when the money would be better off spread out to bring other stations to a state of decent conditions?

 

Nope. I've rode other systems around the world, and this one is a joke. Totally overrated.... Yes it's large, but it's poorly maintained, and everything that should be done can't be done because of a million excuses, like the one you've given above. The subway system is an example of the ineptitude of the at its finest. They pour billions into one station while others sit for years in need of serious upgrades, and even their newest stations look pathetic when one considers how much money was "invested" into them. Fulton Street was a billion dollar money pit and the damn doors to the entrance of the station barely work properly. There should be more riders outraged to get things overhauled underground, and until that happens, I'll keep saying the same thing 20 thousand times like a parrot. I have a hard time believing that a more cost-effective solution can't be found for a simple thing like gap fillers.

and while i do agree fulton st was way overbudget and excessive, it was to untangle the 'rat maze' to get from the 2/3 to 4/5 a little more easily without having to go down to the A/C platform to get past the J line platforms blocking the path. It isn't just an mta hing. Look at the port authority spend $3-4 billion for a pointless wtc hub and that serves 6 tracks for a single tunnel line. At least fulton serves several subway lines and cost half of the pa's 'dove building'.

 

That's what happens when three competing companies build stations practically on top of each other and the agency that follows them has to connect all of the stations together somehow.

 

As for rebuilding the stations, this one and Union Square, that's almost comical coming from you. On one hand, you're always on about MTA waste and on the other, you're pushing for them to spend tens, if not hundreds of millions to fix stations that, while aren't the best, are not the nightmarish disasters you make them out to be. Take the Lexington Ave platforms at 14 Street. In order to straighten out the line at that location, you'd have to practically tear up the line in the vicinity of the station and excavate the land around it. It's proximity to the Broadway line would have to be considered as well. Not only do you have to question who'd pay for such a monumental task, but also how you'd sell the project to riders, especially since the Lexington Ave line would have to be split in half for this. Would riders put up with no service south of Grand Central for several years just so they don't have to wait at 14 Street for 30 extra seconds?

 

Also, to clarify my earlier comment, I'll ask you this: don't you ever get tired of saying the same thing 20 thousand times like a parrot? Yes, we get it - to you, the subway is little more than a rat-infested dump for the homeless. What are you trying to accomplish here?

lol. This is so accurate. It is a contradiction, no matter what the mta does, they are never good to him and it is always mta bashing because it isn't to his 'standards'. Even the brand new stuff like the fulton complex is a 'money pit'. All his ideas will just be more money pits. When dealing with government agencies, it will always be a money pit. The point is to try and see what projects makes sense. Ideally the private sector should be used, but then unions would cry foul and there's bound to be kickbacks somewhere. Of course things will never be done on time or on budget because of this.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

it is an underground corridor from 6th to 7 av like the one from 7th to 8th av at times sq. what can you do to 'improve it'? For that matter, if you are against waste, why spend even more money on that when the money would be better off spread out to bring other stations to a state of decent conditions?

 

and while i do agree fulton st was way overbudget and excessive, it was to untangle the 'rat maze' to get from the 2/3 to 4/5 a little more easily without having to go down to the A/C platform to get past the J line platforms blocking the path. It isn't just an mta hing. Look at the port authority spend $3-4 billion for a pointless wtc hub and that serves 6 tracks for a single tunnel line. At least fulton serves several subway lines and cost half of the pa's 'dove building'.

 

lol. This is so accurate. It is a contradiction, no matter what the mta does, they are never good to him and it is always mta bashing because it isn't to his 'standards'. Even the brand new stuff like the fulton complex is a 'money pit'. All his ideas will just be more money pits. When dealing with government agencies, it will always be a money pit. The point is to try and see what projects makes sense. Ideally the private sector should be used, but then unions would cry foul and there's bound to be kickbacks somewhere. Of course things will never be done on time or on budget because of this.

Wait a minute... Are you telling me that the 14th street stations that serve the and lines are "up-to-date"? Those stations are in dire need of an upgrade and I would probably re-do parts of the Union Square station too where possible.

As for Fulton Street, tell me what that ridiculous dome design had to do with the untangling of the "rat maze"? Absolutely nothing... In the end they downsized it (the size of the oculus), but it certainly wasn't a necessity, and I'm not the only one that sees the problem with the and their free spending:

 

 

 

"Philip McManus, of the Queens Public Transit Committee, said the money would have been better spent elsewhere in the city. 'Transportation is so bad in Queens, especially in Rockaway,' said Mr. McManus, who added that he believed the Fulton Center was 'pretty, but it doesn't really make much of a difference.' 'The outer boroughs do count, and we're not second-class citizens,' he said."

Source: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/11/10/magical_14b_fulton_center_finally_opens_after_12_years.php

 

I've spoken with Philip on various occasions, and he and I agree on a number of issues with the .  

 

Here's another interesting quote from another transit advocate:

 

 

 

From Benjamin Kabak of Second Avenue Sagas: "Is it all worth it though? During his remarks on Sunday, Senator Chuck Schumer, quoting the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, stated that great public works are 'worth the dollars.' But he also said the same thing about the Calatrava hub, and he's a big supporter of Moynihan Station. These three projects are all, to varying degrees, nice to look at, but they do little to nothing to solve problems of regional mobility. For a combined expense of over $7 billion — the total of the Fulton St., PATH and Moynihan expenditures — the city could build train tunnels it needs more than another fancy building."

Source: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/11/10/magical_14b_fulton_center_finally_opens_after_12_years.php

 

My ideas would not be "money pits" because I wouldn't waste 1.4 billion on one bloody station.  

 

 

This article sums it up pretty well:

 

 

Ten years and $1.4 billion down the drain — and they still couldn’t spring for a simple station map.

The MTA’s gold-plated Fulton Center comically fails at its core mission to “untangle” the “maze,” “labyrinth” and “catacombs” of four linked subway stations and nine lines. In fact, the complex may well be less navigable than its hated predecessor.

 

Source: http://nypost.com/2015/02/02/fulton-st-folly-mta-wasted-1-4-billion/

[Grand Concourse]

I did not say 14th st at that area was great, i was talking about how you wanted to spend money to untangle or simplify the connection there.

 

And yes i agree that for all that money for one area was a waste just like the south ferry complex now costing $1billion to serve 2 lines just so people can get off all 10 cars, but still have a long walk to get to the ferry terminal. If it were up to me, south ferry as is now would've been just fine: the loop platform and the corridor connecting to the R line and that's it. They can add all the barriers to keep the lower level platform of the station safe, but i don't see the fed bailing out the mta for another god knows how many hundreds of millions to tat money pit.

 

Let's face it, there will always be waste everywhere. I'd rather have all the stations be brought up to a decent level of repair before trying to reconstruct existing complexes that are probably low in terms of priority.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I did not say 14th st at that area was great, i was talking about how you wanted to spend money to untangle or simplify the connection there.

 

And yes i agree that for all that money for one area was a waste just like the south ferry complex now costing $1billion to serve 2 lines just so people can get off all 10 cars, but still have a long walk to get to the ferry terminal. If it were up to me, south ferry as is now would've been just fine: the loop platform and the corridor connecting to the R line and that's it. They can add all the barriers to keep the lower level platform of the station safe, but i don't see the fed bailing out the mta for another god knows how many hundreds of millions to tat money pit.

 

Let's face it, there will always be waste everywhere. I'd rather have all the stations be brought up to a decent level of repair before trying to reconstruct existing complexes that are probably low in terms of priority.

I don't recall talking about spending money to untangle or simplify the connection there. I was just talking about getting those stations up to the 21st century.  The Old South Ferry was horrible and the new station dealt with a number of issues, so they were smart to build a new one, but clearly didn't think things out.  The loop had overcrowding issues (which I myself experienced) when I took the from the SI Ferry in the mornings back in the day.  Too cramped, loud and dangerous.

[bobtehpanda]

Wait a minute... Are you telling me that the 14th street stations that serve the and lines are "up-to-date"? Those stations are in dire need of an upgrade and I would probably re-do parts of the Union Square station too where possible.

As for Fulton Street, tell me what that ridiculous dome design had to do with the untangling of the "rat maze"? Absolutely nothing... In the end they downsized it (the size of the oculus), but it certainly wasn't a necessity, and I'm not the only one that sees the problem with the and their free spending:

 

Source: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/11/10/magical_14b_fulton_center_finally_opens_after_12_years.php

 

I've spoken with Philip on various occasions, and he and I agree on a number of issues with the .  

 

Here's another interesting quote from another transit advocate:

 

Source: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/11/10/magical_14b_fulton_center_finally_opens_after_12_years.php

 

My ideas would not be "money pits" because I wouldn't waste 1.4 billion on one bloody station.  

 

 

This article sums it up pretty well:

 

 

Source: http://nypost.com/2015/02/02/fulton-st-folly-mta-wasted-1-4-billion/

 

The MTA's "free spending" was federal stimulus money. Very little, if any, came from actual MTA money, and federal money is basically impossible to redirect. In fact, the MTA basically cut the aboveground part entirely at one point, but then the community demanded it back, which is why it was built the way it was.

 

The rat maze at most stations is impossible to untangle without actually building new platforms and stations, which would've been very disruptive and probably increased the cost many times over; a single new platform for New South Ferry cost $600M, and this wasn't even at a particularly complex location with a lot of interweaving subway lines.