R211 Discussion Thread

[LTA1992]

25 minutes ago, quadcorder said:

The decrease in merging on the Broadway Line would allow for increased service is the idea. This was discussed at one point in the 2 Av thread. However it would be moot once the comes online since then increased would not be necessary anymore. Sorry for off-topic.

Re: R211, can someone confirm that the idea is that the subsequent orders can be the open-gangway model if it is determined to be a success, and that is why the order is broken up into several contracts the way it is?

Yes. If the test trains pass (which I have zero doubt on), all options will be R211Ts. If not, which I doubt, they will be all R211As.

[Mysterious2train]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cuomo-mta-funds-subway-cars-redirected-projects-article-1.3306998

Quote

 

The money — $1.2 billion from new subway car purchases that will be now be paid in the next capital repair plan —

would be redirected to other Cuomo priorities like the building of a third Long Island Rail Road track, creation of an AirTrain for LaGuardia Airport, subway station improvements and automatic toll-collection systems.

Originally, the approved five-year MTA capital plan that runs through 2019 included nearly $3 billion to purchase 940 subway cars.

That would be scaled back to 450 cars “to better align funding with the manufacturing schedule of the railcars,” the Metropolitan Transportation Authority said in a proposed capital plan amendment it recently filed.

The MTA says the remaining cars have been ordered, but they won’t be delivered for several years because of the time it takes to build them. The transit agency says the plan is to pay for them in the 2020-2024 capital program when they arrive.

 

The MTA also justified reducing the initial NYCT order from 950 to 450 (not counting the 75 for SIR) by saying that it made more sense to push the back half to the next capital program given how long it would take to build and deliver 940 cars. And of course, reducing the amount of money spent on the R211s in this capital program made available money for the projects added last year (although several other projects were also postponed). 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Mysterious2train

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, Mysterious2train said:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cuomo-mta-funds-subway-cars-redirected-projects-article-1.3306998

The MTA also justified reducing the initial NYCT order from 950 to 450 (not counting the 75 for SIR) by saying that it made more sense to push the back half to the next capital program given how long it would take to build and deliver 940 cars. And of course, reducing the amount of money spent on the R211s in this capital program made available money for the projects added last year (although several other projects were also postponed). 

Well............ that just sounds like a lot of 

 

What was that B word again?

[East New York]

Ladies and gentlemen, now that I have all the details on the table. We can soon get deep into this Kawasaki R211. This was a very smart move, even though it was expected and "unofficially" confirmed sometime ago. I am also pleesed the MTA decided to move forward with 2 OG test sets. 

Final assignment are pending and will be finalized when MTA gets the R179 program ramped up. Projected assignments are complete and we will get into that when all is confirmed. But just as a spoiler, the  is most definitely in the mix. Open gangway preliminary calls for  and  trains. 

Stay tuned! 

Edited January 25, 2018 by East New York

[RR503]

I hope to god  and  get the actual OGs. Neither the  nor  can match their consistency of crushloading — indeed the  is a major feeder for those 2. That extra 10% or so of space would do wonders for Queens Boulevard — make those rides livable. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by RR503

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, East New York said:

Ladies and gentlemen, now that I have all the details on the table. We can soon get deep into this Kawasaki R211. This was a very smart move, even though it was expected and "unofficially" confirmed sometime ago. I am also pleesed the MTA decided to move forward with 2 OG test sets. 

Final assignment are pending and will be finalized when MTA gets the R179 program ramped up. Projected assignments are complete and we will get into that when all is confirmed. But just as a spoiler, the  is most definitely in the mix. Open gangway preliminary calls for  and  trains. 

Stay tuned! 

I doubt the would get em so soon, the plan is to make Jamaica 100% R160. I actually think the option order would go to Jamaica if they're all open gangway cars with cbtc installed for the and

[R32 3838]

I could see the majority of the base order going to pitkin for the

And the last group of cars going to ether jamaica or CIY

 

Option order I cars i see going to Jamaica 

Option order 2 cars I can see going to coney island yard.

[U-BahnNYC]

2 hours ago, East New York said:

Final assignment are pending and will be finalized when MTA gets the R179 program ramped up. Projected assignments are complete and we will get into that when all is confirmed. But just as a spoiler, the  is most definitely in the mix. Open gangway preliminary calls for  and  trains. 

Ha! I had an uncanny feeling the MTA's favorite child, the , will get the shiny new cars to complement the SAS.

[U-BahnNYC]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

I hope to god  and  get the actual OGs. Neither the  nor  can match their consistency of crushloading — indeed the  is a major feeder for those 2. That extra 10% or so of space would do wonders for Queens Boulevard — make those rides livable. 

It would also do wonders for all those strong-smelling "passengers" who use the as an overnight motel, lol.

I'm jk tho.

[Around the Horn]

5 minutes ago, U-BahnNYC said:

Ha! I had an uncanny feeling the MTA's favorite child, the , will get the shiny new cars to complement the SAS.

Well it will need cars for Phase two so it was bound to happen.

[Around the Horn]

14 hours ago, East New York said:

Ladies and gentlemen, now that I have all the details on the table. We can soon get deep into this Kawasaki R211. This was a very smart move, even though it was expected and "unofficially" confirmed sometime ago. I am also pleesed the MTA decided to move forward with 2 OG test sets. 

Final assignment are pending and will be finalized when MTA gets the R179 program ramped up. Projected assignments are complete and we will get into that when all is confirmed. But just as a spoiler, the  is most definitely in the mix. Open gangway preliminary calls for  and  trains. 

Stay tuned! 

@East New York, do you know why one of the options is for 437 cars, an odd number?

[Union Tpke]

9 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

@East New York, do you know why one of the options is for 437 cars, an odd number?

It is a mix of 5 and 4 cars.

4X3=12 5X1=5

That makes 17.

 

[Union Tpke]

4(X)=4-Car+5-Car

4(18)=72+365

4(23)=92+345

4(28)=112+325

4(33)=132+305

4(38)=152+285

Edited January 25, 2018 by Union Tpke

[Lance]

I have to ask, what would be the point behind purchasing more four-car sets? With the 143s, 160A1s and the incoming 179s, one would think the Eastern Division has enough cars for their lines. If the goal is to keep the non-East lines at full-length, buying four-car sets for lines that don't need them really makes no sense. Calculating the number of trains, the and lines presently need 65 trains to meet service. Once the 179 order is completed, we will have 97.5 eight-car trains for the East. Even if I include the , which is presently using the A1s, we would still have a 15% spare factor of four-car sets available. Do we really want to repeat the same mistakes we did with the R179 order? After all, it was only by sheer incompetence by the builder that were we able to adjust the order to better suit our changing needs. We really shouldn't try this again and hope for better results.

[Union Tpke]

16 hours ago, East New York said:

Ladies and gentlemen, now that I have all the details on the table. We can soon get deep into this Kawasaki R211. This was a very smart move, even though it was expected and "unofficially" confirmed sometime ago. I am also pleesed the MTA decided to move forward with 2 OG test sets. 

Final assignment are pending and will be finalized when MTA gets the R179 program ramped up. Projected assignments are complete and we will get into that when all is confirmed. But just as a spoiler, the  is most definitely in the mix. Open gangway preliminary calls for  and  trains. 

Stay tuned! 

There will be up to 1,612 cars (75 for SIR, 1,537 for NYCT). Let's assume that all options are exercised. It is known that many R211s will go the  for 8th Avenue CBTC, and these will replace the R46s there. 940 of the up to 1,612 cars will replace the 756 R46s. 756 cars divided by 8 cars per train equals 94 trains. When multiplied by 10, this gets 940, some of which will be used on Eighth Avenue . 1,537-940=597. These cars will be used for the Open Gangway Test  (20 cars) and for fleet growth (577 cars). The  will likely serve as a test for 207th/Pitkin, while the  will be a test for Jamaica. This will leave 140 cars in Option 1 for fleet growth, and the entirety of Option 2 (437 cars). As it has been stated, many of these cars will be used for the increased fleet requirements for the extension of the  and maybe some more  trips to 125th Street along Second Avenue. The number 437 shows that there will be a mix of four- and five-car sets. Three four-car sets equals twelve cars, and when one five-car set is added that equals 17. In the post above, I listed possible options for fleet breakdown. The four-car sets will likely go to either the  or the  . They could go to the  as service will increase with the power upgrades that will be completed during the Canarsie Shutdown, or to the  to permanently make it 480 feet. This leaves the 140 cars from Option 1. My guess is that presuming that the test is successful, these will go to the  and .

"The 2015-2019 growth cars (168) are expected to be used for additional service on the E, G, L, and N lines, although these service plans remain subject to change. " http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/docs/TYNA-Consolidated.pdf

According to the 2004 FEIS Table 5B-19, it will take 5 minutes to go between 96th Street and 125th Street northbound, and 5.5 minutes southbound.

The Q's running time will increase from 65-66 minutes to 69 or 70 minutes. It currently needs 21 trains, or 210 cars.

http://www.thejoekorner.com/carassignments/index.html

http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/tqcur.pdf

Trains needed     = Trains  * Time

                          Hour (Time)

19(70)/60

133/6=~27 trains. That means it will need about 270 cars if 19 trains per hour are to be provided, or 60 additional cars in service. This assumes that all of the trains will be s, which is not possible. This just demonstrates how many cars would be needed. The rest of the growth cars in five-car sets could boost Broadway service on the , a  extension, or to increase spare factors.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Union Tpke
URL

[Union Tpke]

6 minutes ago, Lance said:

I have to ask, what would be the point behind purchasing more four-car sets? With the 143s, 160A1s and the incoming 179s, one would think the Eastern Division has enough cars for their lines. If the goal is to keep the non-East lines at full-length, buying four-car sets for lines that don't need them really makes no sense. Calculating the number of trains, the and lines presently need 65 trains to meet service. Once the 179 order is completed, we will have 97.5 eight-car trains for the East. Even if I include the , which is presently using the A1s, we would still have a 15% spare factor of four-car sets available. Do we really want to repeat the same mistakes we did with the R179 order? After all, it was only by sheer incompetence by the builder that were we able to adjust the order to better suit our changing needs. We really shouldn't try this again and hope for better results.

They could be for the  to allow it to be 480 feet permanently or for increased  and  service. The  could go up to 26 TPH, and the  to 13-14 or so.

[Union Tpke]

Sixth Av CBTC is scheduled to be started during the 2020-2024 plan. I presume that the R68/A replacements will be used for the B and D.

[Union Tpke]

DELETE

Edited January 25, 2018 by Union Tpke

[Union Tpke]

1 minute ago, Union Tpke said:

Sixth Av CBTC is scheduled to be started during the 2020-2024 plan. I presume that the R68/A replacements will be used for the B and D.

http://www.irse.org/knowledge/publicdocuments/IRSE CBTC Conference - 2016 Toronto - Gregoire_Sulmont_NYCT_Multi-Supplier_Interoperability_Program_Rev 03.pdf

[Lance]

1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

They could be for the  to allow it to be 480 feet permanently or for increased  and  service. The  could go up to 26 TPH, and the  to 13-14 or so.

Even if we assume the most generous of service expansions for the and lines, we're still only maxing out at around 75-80 total trains needed for the East and Crosstown lines. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the justification here.

Also, just because the 6th Avenue line is in the 2020-24 budget, that does not mean CBTC will be complete by that point. By the time 6th Avenue CBTC comes online, we may be in the process of replacing the 68s and it would not be necessary to shift them around to non-CBTC lines.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Lance

[Bill from Maspeth]

Delete, sorry

Edited January 25, 2018 by Bill from Maspeth

[Bill from Maspeth]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:10 PM, quadcorder said:

The decrease in merging on the Broadway Line would allow for increased service is the idea. This was discussed at one point in the 2 Av thread. However it would be moot once the comes online since then increased would not be necessary anymore. Sorry for off-topic.

Re: R211, can someone confirm that the idea is that the subsequent orders can be the open-gangway model if it is determined to be a success, and that is why the order is broken up into several contracts the way it is?

Appropriation of money for the order.  In other words, so much money appropriated capital program.  You can't afford all to pay for all those cars in one program.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Bill from Maspeth

[Art Vandelay]

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Art Vandelay

[Art Vandelay]

3 hours ago, Lance said:

Even if we assume the most generous of service expansions for the and lines, we're still only maxing out at around 75-80 total trains needed for the East and Crosstown lines. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the justification here.

Also, just because the 6th Avenue line is in the 2020-24 budget, that does not mean CBTC will be complete by that point. By the time 6th Avenue CBTC comes online, we may be in the process of replacing the 68s and it would not be necessary to shift them around to non-CBTC lines.

G J L and M require 13, 20, 24 and 23 trains respectively. That is 80 trains without any increase. That would mean 82% of the fleet is required for daily service.

If you want to increase service on any of those lines, you'd need to order more 4 car sets to reliably provide service. 


Also- 6th avenue CBTC does not change the requirements for CBTC equipment. Every trains on 6th avenue will already have to be CBTC equipped for Queens and 8th ave CBTC. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Art Vandelay

[Union Tpke]

1 hour ago, Art Vandelay said:

G J L and M require 13, 20, 24 and 23 trains respectively. That is 80 trains without any increase. That would mean 82% of the fleet is required for daily service.

If you want to increase service on any of those lines, you'd need to order more 4 car sets to reliably provide service. 


Also- 6th avenue CBTC does not change the requirements for CBTC equipment. Every trains on 6th avenue will already have to be CBTC equipped for Queens and 8th ave CBTC. 

Except 8th Av CBTC is only south of 59th