MysteriousBtrain Posted June 18, 2016 Share #126 Posted June 18, 2016 Why is Bombardier disqualified? Are they disqualified completely? Clearly you have not seen the performance the R179s have given at the moment. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missabassie Posted June 18, 2016 Share #127 Posted June 18, 2016 Major Update: MTA is in the process of speeding up the R211 project, as final design configuration in now basically complete. Originally, MTA wanted to award the contract after the production R179's went into service. They have now decided that not only will they not wait for the R179 evaluation, but Bombardier now has officially been disqualified from bidding on the contract. At this time, My money is on Kawasaki. Even if Alstom gets part of the order, Kawasaki will be still building them. No matter who bids, I will bet anyone anything that it goes to Kawasaki. Totally agreed, Kawasaki's got this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East New York Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share #128 Posted June 18, 2016 Why is Bombardier disqualified? Are they disqualified completely? They have absolutely no chance at getting the R211 order. Yes they are disqualified completely. That means if they submit a bid for the contract MTA has no plans on evaluating it or even giving it consideration. The reason they are disqualified is because MTA is not happy at ALL with the R179 order, and the delays are costing the MTA about $50 Million dollars. At the end of the day MTA will be compensated, however, the last straw was the fact that the R179 should have been here about 2 weeks ago according to the revised schedule. It's wasn't. So from this day forward, they are disqualified until further notice. If the MTA could cancel the R179 order and double up the R211 order they would..... They are pissed like nothing I have seen in over a decade. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javier Posted June 18, 2016 Share #129 Posted June 18, 2016 Dayum take a chill pill MTA... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted June 18, 2016 Share #130 Posted June 18, 2016 Dayum take a chill pill MTA... Shouldn't have to chill when your paying and someone else could do the job. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted June 18, 2016 Share #131 Posted June 18, 2016 Too bad they couldn't have gone with a 160 option instead. 179 was originally supposed to be the next generation car, like the 211 is now. When they decided to scrap the 44's instead of the 32's and 42's, it somehow got bumped around, so that the 179's are now acting like an extension of the 160's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech And Transit Posted June 18, 2016 Share #132 Posted June 18, 2016 Dayum take a chill pill MTA... The pilot test train was supposed to be delivered in the fourth quarter of 2014. It is now the second quarter of 2016 and the pilot set still has not been delivered. On top of that, these delays are causing them to loose $50 million. They have every reason to be pissed that the first 10 cars of an order are 2 years late and are still not on property. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon2305 Posted June 18, 2016 Share #133 Posted June 18, 2016 Dayum take a chill pill MTA... When you're throwing money on SMSing trains that are over 50 years old well past their life expectancy while investing in one of your top builders which are not delivery on there word or schedule for brand new trains, you'd be pretty hot as well. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteriousBtrain Posted June 18, 2016 Share #134 Posted June 18, 2016 Dayum take a chill pill MTA...I don't mean this in a bad way (and I mean it the nicest way possible)....... Sometimes I question your intelligence and your "sources"(Even though this time the source actually was on point) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainfan22 Posted June 18, 2016 Share #135 Posted June 18, 2016 TA should give Bombardier another chance based off the fact every train Bombardier built for MTA have been great cars (R62A, R142, M7, Shoreliner cars on Metro North). I'd bet my bottom dollar the 179s will be good cars as well, with a 1 million between miles MDBF at there peak like the 160s did. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttcsubwayfan Posted June 18, 2016 Share #136 Posted June 18, 2016 As someone who is a fan of Bombardier products such as the Flexity tram, and T1 and R62A subway cars, the suggestion that we should give them another chance because they managed to deliver good quality trains is ludicrous. You know who else makes good trains, and doesn't horribly delay their deliveries? Kawasaki. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted June 18, 2016 Share #137 Posted June 18, 2016 I have no idea why some of you are acting so surprised that Bombardier is out of consideration as a prospective bidder for the 211 order. In the past five years, there have been three separate legal suits filed against Bombardier, two of which due to production problems. The company settled a suit against the Deutsche Bahn that was filed for about half a billion dollars. Ongoing delays on the TTC's light rail vehicle order have forced a delay in opening their new streetcar route. With problems like this along with the two year delay in delivering the 179 order, the MTA wisely made the right choice in disqualifying Bombardier from the bidding process. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beelinefan Posted June 18, 2016 Share #138 Posted June 18, 2016 We should have seen Kawasaki getting the LIRR/MN M9 order as a sign that the mta was not happy with bombardier. Also has Kawasaki ever built a open gangway train before? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East New York Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share #139 Posted June 18, 2016 TA should give Bombardier another chance based off the fact every train Bombardier built for MTA have been great cars (R62A, R142, M7, Shoreliner cars on Metro North). I'd bet my bottom dollar the 179s will be good cars as well, with a 1 million between miles MDBF at there peak like the 160s did. I don't have any doubt the trains won't be good cars, but Bombardier is having too many issues and MTA can't afford another late order. They have already given them chance after chance over the last 2 years to correct the issues. Bombardier has revised the delivery schedule several times now and the trains still aren't here. Not only that, but the R211 will be a technology leap from what we have now. It needs to go to Kawasaki. No other manufacture has delivered the about of cars they have. The largest order in US history was for the R160. The second largest order ever will be the R211. We don't have time to wait around and see if they can get their act together. They can't even get cars to us on time which are near identical to the ones we already have. If it was my decision, they would have been disqualified about 6 months ago. I wouldn't dare risk awarding them a contract for a train of this caliber. Plus there will be the SIR cars, and most likely an open gangway option. Bombardier was supposed to prove they were worthy of bidding on the contract. They have failed miserably! I have no idea why some of you are acting so surprised that Bombardier is out of consideration as a prospective bidder for the 211 order. In the past five years, there have been three separate legal suits filed against Bombardier, two of which due to production problems. The company settled a suit against the Deutsche Bahn that was filed for about half a billion dollars. Ongoing delays on the TTC's light rail vehicle order have forced a delay in opening their new streetcar route. With problems like this along with the two year delay in delivering the 179 order, the MTA wisely made the right choice in disqualifying Bombardier from the bidding process. Facts!! We should have seen Kawasaki getting the LIRR/MN M9 order as a sign that the mta was not happy with bombardier. Also has Kawasaki ever built a open gangway train before? Of course Kawasaki has built open gangway trains. They are among the largest manufactures in the world, and they are all over Asia. Most of their trains are open gangway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomtoon Posted June 18, 2016 Share #140 Posted June 18, 2016 It does amaze me that Bombardier performs so differently in two different parts of the world. In the UK they didn't seem to have many issues with the 2009 stock or the S Stock recently built for London Underground 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttcsubwayfan Posted June 19, 2016 Share #141 Posted June 19, 2016 Different plants. For comparison, Toronto's tram order is disgustingly delayed, whereas the new cab cars for GO Transit are coming in without any significant delays. They originate from different plants. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAlam Posted June 19, 2016 Share #142 Posted June 19, 2016 Different plants. For comparison, Toronto's tram order is disgustingly delayed, whereas the new cab cars for GO Transit are coming in without any significant delays. They originate from different plants. Correct me if I'm wrong, Bombardier uses the same factory for NYC and Toronto so if Toronto cars are struggling so will NYC's. It's so bad in Toronto, they are now accepting cars, for just working. They stop checking if the aesthetics are done correctly which they are not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B46 via Utica Posted June 19, 2016 Share #143 Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) So I take it that these cars will definitely not come when they are scheduled to. Typical MTA. Edited June 19, 2016 by B46 via Utica 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttcsubwayfan Posted June 19, 2016 Share #144 Posted June 19, 2016 Correct me if I'm wrong, Bombardier uses the same factory for NYC and Toronto so if Toronto cars are struggling so will NYC's. It's so bad in Toronto, they are now accepting cars, for just working. They stop checking if the aesthetics are done correctly which they are not. No. Toronto's cars have body shells made in Mexico, which are then trucked up to Thunder Bay for finishing. The NYC cars' shells are made in La Pocatière, and then trucked to Plattbsurgh for finishing. What aesthetic issues are there in Toronto? So I take it that these cars will definitely not come when they are scheduled to. Typical MTA. You think the MTA is to blame for this? Christ. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeLow Posted June 19, 2016 Share #145 Posted June 19, 2016 Now that Bombardier is practically on the outside looking in, are there any other qualified manufacturers being considered besides favored Kawasaki? As I'm sure you all know, when bidding on contracts, especially one as expensive as the R211 will be, it's best to have competition for obvious reasons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted June 19, 2016 Share #146 Posted June 19, 2016 The only things Bombardier are good at making at this point are ALP45s and MultiLevels... Oh how the mighty have fallen... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteriousBtrain Posted June 19, 2016 Share #147 Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) Now that Bombardier is practically on the outside looking in, are there any other qualified manufacturers being considered besides favored Kawasaki? As I'm sure you all know, when bidding on contracts, especially one as expensive as the R211 will be, it's best to have competition for obvious reasons. It's possible Alstom may get a part of the R211 order too, similar to how the R160s were made.The MTA is also looking for a Chinese bidder I believe. Edited June 19, 2016 by ShadeJay 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East New York Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share #148 Posted June 20, 2016 So I take it that these cars will definitely not come when they are scheduled to. Typical MTA. What are you basing this conclusion of off? The contract hasn't even been awarded yet....... How is MTA to blame for the failures of another manufacturer? The only thing MTA is to be blamed for is the fact that the technical evaluation of Kawasaki's R179 was much higher than that of Bombardier's, however they won the contract pretty much because they were the lowest bidder. Now that Bombardier is practically on the outside looking in, are there any other qualified manufacturers being considered besides favored Kawasaki? As I'm sure you all know, when bidding on contracts, especially one as expensive as the R211 will be, it's best to have competition for obvious reasons. No-one else is qualified, yet the Chinese company building Chicago's new cars are interested in submitting a bid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeLow Posted June 20, 2016 Share #149 Posted June 20, 2016 It's possible Alstom may get a part of the R211 order too, similar to how the R160s were made. The MTA is also looking for a Chinese bidder I believe. Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeLow Posted June 20, 2016 Share #150 Posted June 20, 2016 What are you basing this conclusion of off? The contract hasn't even been awarded yet....... How is MTA to blame for the failures of another manufacturer? The only thing MTA is to be blamed for is the fact that the technical evaluation of Kawasaki's R179 was much higher than that of Bombardier's, however they won the contract pretty much because they were the lowest bidder. No-one else is qualified, yet the Chinese company building Chicago's new cars are interested in submitting a bid. Thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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