R211 Discussion Thread

[RailRunRob]

3 minutes ago, Fan Railer said:

hehehe touche.

 

At any rate, given current operating rules, we'd be unlikely to see something like that again nowadays.

Indeed!

[U-BahnNYC]

On 2/1/2018 at 7:38 PM, Maserati7200 said:

Just so you are aware - the NTT's are neutered. They could hit 60+ on level ground out of the factory  but the MTA changed the power profile to make them perform like the rest of the fleet. The power profile can be increased with CBTC, and already has on the . Now with CBTC, the L train accelerates very quickly between tightly spaced local stations, sometimes getting to 40 MPH or so. In the 60th street tunnel, the computer system cuts power at 55 MPH. If allowed its full power capabilities it could go much faster downhill and on level ground.

As of right now, the non-CBTC NTT acceleration between 35-40 MPH is slow, and PAINFULLY SLOW between 40-50 MPH. Like you were alluding to earlier, the power profile as set up on non-CBTC NTT's means it's basically impossible to get above 50 without the help of gravity. Considering  how powerful they are, considering how quickly the NTT's on the  get to 40 right now, and considering how long it takes for the non-CBTC NTT's to go from 40 to 50 MPH, I would guess uneuttered under CBTC conditions, the NTT's can get to 50 about twice as quickly as they could now. Because of this, 55 could easily become a good cruising speed on most express runs, as opposed to now where the high 40's is 'fast', and low 50's is on the very high end and rare. I would also guess that they could get to 65-70 MPH about as quickly as they get to 50 MPH now un-neutered, so 65-70 would be the speed for really long stretches.

I could think of multiple examples besides the tunnels and flats where such speeds could be achieved. This includes, but isn't limited to the Brighton Express, 4th ave express, CPW between 59th and 125th, Flushing express, and Queens Blvd express. However, doing so would mean the MTA would have to maintain their equipment and and tracks better than they do now, which I don't foresee happening. However, I do think that realistically, with CBTC, 55 MPH will be normal for most straight express runs, and it'll get to 55 much quicker and thereby staying at 55 for longer.    

That's interesting - I've always felt the moves much faster between short distances than any other line. That explains it.

Btw does anyone know where, as of right now, trains go fastest? I "feel" like it's the in the 14th street Tube, but inside a tunnel isn't a good measure of speed. There's also that 'dip' on CPW between 103rd and 110th, where the and go noticeably fast.

[Fan Railer]

1 hour ago, U-BahnNYC said:

That's interesting - I've always felt the moves much faster between short distances than any other line. That explains it.

Btw does anyone know where, as of right now, trains go fastest? I "feel" like it's the in the 14th street Tube, but inside a tunnel isn't a good measure of speed. There's also that 'dip' on CPW between 103rd and 110th, where the and go noticeably fast.

The 60th Street Tube [  ] is still the fastest section in the system. If the timers are run correctly, you can still do 60+ MPH in that tunnel. I've heard 64-67 mph on a 160 Siemens; most of the acceleration above 55 mph would be gravity anyway.

[Jemorie]

1 hour ago, U-BahnNYC said:

That's interesting - I've always felt the moves much faster between short distances than any other line. That explains it.

Btw does anyone know where, as of right now, trains go fastest? I "feel" like it's the in the 14th street Tube, but inside a tunnel isn't a good measure of speed. There's also that 'dip' on CPW between 103rd and 110th, where the and go noticeably fast.

The and are very slow in that stretch though. The dive after 103rd Street and the rise into 110th Street is where the T/Os often apply the brakes.

[U-BahnNYC]

21 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

The and are very slow in that stretch though. The dive after 103rd Street and the rise into 110th Street is where the T/Os often apply the brakes.

True, but there are those awesome rare occasions where they don't slow down at all and you go reallly fast.

[U-BahnNYC]

26 minutes ago, Fan Railer said:

The 60th Street Tube [  ] is still the fastest section in the system. If the timers are run correctly, you can still do 60+ MPH in that tunnel. I've heard 64-67 mph on a 160 Siemens; most of the acceleration above 55 mph would be gravity anyway.

I'll have to ride it some time. Does the tunnel have a (relatively) steep slope or something that helps with the acceleration? And is it more pronounced on one end vs the other?

[RailRunRob]

59 minutes ago, U-BahnNYC said:

I'll have to ride it some time. Does the tunnel have a (relatively) steep slope or something that helps with the acceleration? And is it more pronounced on one end vs the other?

Yep 4.23% grade on the Queens side 3.8% on the Manhattan side. fairly steep. I have to check the Steinway diagrams as well.

[Fan Railer]

2 hours ago, U-BahnNYC said:

True, but there are those awesome rare occasions where they don't slow down at all and you go reallly fast.

In regards to CPW express northbound, the trick to have the timers clear perfectly is to keep it on the post until you crest the hill around 86th, then shut off power and coast down the hill. If you max out at 42 MPH at the bottom of the hill between 103 and 110, you don't have to brake for any of the timers until you hit the slower timers at the north end of 116th street.

[RailRunRob]

10 hours ago, Fan Railer said:

In regards to CPW express northbound, the trick to have the timers clear perfectly is to keep it on the post until you crest the hill around 86th, then shut off power and coast down the hill. If you max out at 42 MPH at the bottom of the hill between 103 and 110, you don't have to brake for any of the timers until you hit the slower timers at the north end of 116th street.

Ahhh... I've noticed that on my way to Harlem the other day..  Trains gain a lot of speed between 72 and 86 and then break and slow up in the 86th street area. That make's sense.  I have a good understanding of infrastructure and the technology overall mostly from academia and some work experience but I virtually have no knowledge of NYCTA operations and inner workings. This type of information fascinates me!!   (Fanboy Glee)

Edited February 3, 2018 by RailRunRob

[P3F]

Does the Brighton line have any timers?

[trainfan22]

12 minutes ago, P3F said:

Does the Brighton line have any timers?

Yep, the S/B local track approaching Kings Highway.

 

Also both the local and express S/B track approaching Brighton Beach.

Edited February 3, 2018 by trainfan22

[B22viaAtlanticAv]

nevermind

Edited February 3, 2018 by B22viaAtlanticAv

[P3F]

14 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

Yep, the S/B local track approaching Kings Highway.

 

Also both the local and express S/B track approaching Brighton Beach.

Brighton Beach makes sense since there's a fairly sharp curve from the private ROW onto Brighton Beach Avenue.

 

I've never really noticed the unnecessarily slowing down before entering Kings Highway; is it a timer that allows for decent speeds?

[Fan Railer]

On 2/3/2018 at 3:19 PM, P3F said:

I've never really noticed the unnecessarily slowing down before entering Kings Highway; is it a timer that allows for decent speeds?

That timer is there to protect the reverse curve coming into the station; without it, you'd be able to fly in around 35 - 40 mph, which is not exactly desirable in that specific setting.

[Bosco]

17 hours ago, Fan Railer said:

That timer is there to protect the reverse curve coming into the station; without it, you'd be able to fly in around 35 - 40 mph, which is not exactly desirable in that specific setting.

But why was it added?  I vaguely remember a few years ago when the used to fly into that station, so I'm guessing that timer is only a few years old (unless I never noticed).

I think there's also one southbound approaching Prospect Park; it's either a timer or it's due to the steep gradient of that stretch of tunnel, because trains slow down well before entering the station.

[RailRunRob]

29 minutes ago, Bosco said:

I think there's also one southbound approaching Prospect Park; it's either a timer or it's due to the steep gradient of that stretch of tunnel, because trains slow down well before entering the station.

Yeah, there's a steep upgrade and curve just north of the Prospect Park. 

[Fan Railer]

6 hours ago, Bosco said:

But why was it added?  I vaguely remember a few years ago when the used to fly into that station, so I'm guessing that timer is only a few years old (unless I never noticed).

I think there's also one southbound approaching Prospect Park; it's either a timer or it's due to the steep gradient of that stretch of tunnel, because trains slow down well before entering the station.

Signal department has been adding timers left and right over the last decade, all in the name of safety......

Yes, there's a timed section coming S/B into Prospect Park because of the blind curve just before the station. Once you clear the last timer, you're in the curve and starting to go uphill.

[JayJay85]

On 2/6/2018 at 12:11 AM, Fan Railer said:

Signal department has been adding timers left and right over the last decade, all in the name of safety......

Yes, there's a timed section coming S/B into Prospect Park because of the blind curve just before the station. Once you clear the last timer, you're in the curve and starting to go uphill.

Some timers need to be taken out.

[RailRunRob]

2 hours ago, JayJay85 said:

Some timers need to be taken out.

Called CBTC.  

Edited February 10, 2018 by RailRunRob

[Fan Railer]

51 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Called CBTC.  

Nah, they should go back to line of sight running on straightaways with signalling only at curves and interlockings 

[Maserati7200]

2 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Called CBTC.  

 

1 hour ago, Fan Railer said:

Nah, they should go back to line of sight running on straightaways with signalling only at curves and interlockings 

I mean, some timers are definitely necessary for safety, but many of them really aren't; the balance is definitely tipped in the wrong direction. They could stand get rid of quite a few without risking anyone's safety. But CBTC will definitely help in the long run

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, Maserati7200 said:

 

I mean, some timers are definitely necessary for safety, but many of them really aren't; the balance is definitely tipped in the wrong direction. They could stand get rid of quite a few without risking anyone's safety. But CBTC will definitely help in the long run

What's the point of tweaking or changing anything associated with an estimative fixed block system at this point ? When you don't have full control over a system what do you do? You add buffers and safeguards kinda what they've done over the last 30 years can't fully blame them risk mitigation. They need to just focus all attention on CBTC at this point. Accuracy, precision more control, and better flow.

Edited February 10, 2018 by RailRunRob

[LTA1992]

Seems they are testing the new Kawasaki trucks on an R160. Can't see the number as the photo focuses on the trucks.

Hope they work well and pass their tests. But I'm not in doubt that they will. 

[Bosco]

On 3/7/2018 at 10:27 AM, LTA1992 said:

Seems they are testing the new Kawasaki trucks on an R160. Can't see the number as the photo focuses on the trucks.

Hope they work well and pass their tests. But I'm not in doubt that they will. 

I trust that it will.  There's also the potential of seeing these on other existing Kawasaki fleets as well as the R211 if this goes well.

For anyone who is interested in reading about it: http://global.kawasaki.com/en/mobility/rail/bogie/efwing.html

[KK 6 Ave Local]

I wonder where the R160s on the   will go.. 

please let it be the  

I put diamond symbols b/c why not