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R211 Discussion Thread


East New York

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14 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

They'll probably be linked to the door controls. 

Yep some type of manual overide.. You'll probably have less advance visual notice meaning you won't get visuals approaching the station. Just when the doors open and close directly.

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  • 2 months later...

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Rolling stock component specialist Hübner used the InnoTrans trade show in Berlin on September 18-21 to introduce a model of the open gangway it is developing for the next generation of New York Subway cars.

Of the initial build, a pre-series fleet of 20 is to be equipped with Hübner gangways, although the company says that it expects to produce ‘more than 1 000’ of the assemblies from 2020. Production will largely be undertaken at its factory in South Carolina in order to comply with Buy America regulations.

https://www.metro-report.com/news/metro/single-view/view/walk-through-trains-are-coming-to-the-new-york-subway.html

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24 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

For now, only 20 under a pilot program. If it becomes successful then we'll see how many more sets receive it

So we may end up with only 20 while other cities have had this technology for nearly 10 years? How long will it take until we learn that we need to catch up?

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3 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

So we may end up with only 20 while other cities have had this technology for nearly 10 years? How long will it take until we learn that we need to catch up?

Well, not exactly. The base order is only for seven hundred-odd cars (incl. 75 for the SIR). The 20 will test feasibility of open gangway tech for the remainder of the order, and if said tests are successful, a clause written into the contract will allow the MTA to order the rest of the cars with OGs. 

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33 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Well, not exactly. The base order is only for seven hundred-odd cars (incl. 75 for the SIR). The 20 will test feasibility of open gangway tech for the remainder of the order, and if said tests are successful, a clause written into the contract will allow the MTA to order the rest of the cars with OGs. 

So the numbers would be like this?

SIR - 75

No OG - about 600 cars

With OG - about 900 cars

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2 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

I see no reason that OGs will fail. 

So I expect the option orders to be all open gangway.

That would be optimal but I do also see the possibility of the first 100 or so option cars being non-OG to speed up delivery depending on how long the tests of the base cars takes...

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6 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

I see no reason that OGs will fail. 

So I expect the option orders to be all open gangway.

Urine corrodes a mating surface. Daily News article reporting a wave of bum turds left on linoleum because of OGs. Car Inspectors file a grievance that the cars are unsafe to de/couple. Extreme tunnel noise. Very small MTBF when assigned to R train. Knee jerk reaction to someone in a wheelchair being injured at City Hall or 5th ave riding in the coupler. Todler amputates fingers on OG car, mom sues. Knee jerk reaction. Skel nods out flat on floor in OG for whole trip from 207 to FR, gets injured. Operations throws a tantrum that an OG set cant have isolated cars. Vetos any attempts to order them again.

Bum smells up whole set is too basic of a reason. I tried to come up with less obvious ones. 

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3 hours ago, bulk88 said:

Urine corrodes a mating surface. Daily News article reporting a wave of bum turds left on linoleum because of OGs. Car Inspectors file a grievance that the cars are unsafe to de/couple. Extreme tunnel noise. Very small MTBF when assigned to R train. Knee jerk reaction to someone in a wheelchair being injured at City Hall or 5th ave riding in the coupler. Todler amputates fingers on OG car, mom sues. Knee jerk reaction. Skel nods out flat on floor in OG for whole trip from 207 to FR, gets injured. Operations throws a tantrum that an OG set cant have isolated cars. Vetos any attempts to order them again.

Bum smells up whole set is too basic of a reason. I tried to come up with less obvious ones. 

Our trains are permanently linked in five car sets. There is nonneed for decouopling. Second,urine isnt a problem on OG trains because, you know, there' s nowhere for them to piss.

On the topoc of odors. As someone whose ridden OG trains in Paris (where the bums smell way worse, trust me), i can assure you that won't be an issue. Cars with homeless smell as bad as they do simply because the particles that make up the stench have nowhere to go. On an OG train, that's less of an issue because they are now in a more open environment that would naturally have better ventilation, thus spreading out the particles enough so the stench is minimized.

Lastly, there are security benefits to not having closed cars. It's a natural evolution since the original NTT generation introduced glass for us to see the next car for those very reasons. Aaaand for a sense of openness.

The other points are too intelligible for me to understand.

@Around the Horn By the time the Options are awarded, the MTA would have the data they need. Remember, they arent supoosed to start coming in until around 2023. The whole point of having 20 test cars is to speed up that process.

Edited by LTA1992
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10 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

Our trains are permanently linked in five car sets. There is nonneed for decouopling. Second,urine isnt a problem on OG trains because, you know, there' s nowhere for them to piss.

 

Yeah, there's also nowhere for people to piss on non-OG sets. People just do it anyway.

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The RFP will be based on the terms and conditions of the QBL contract to purchase CBTC carborne equipment for installation on R179 cars and on the new R211 cars (base and options). The resulting procurement is expected to be in the form of a supplemental agreement to the QBL contract, incorporating that contract’s terms. The CBTC carborne equipment purchase for the R179 cars will provide CBTC carborne equipment to outfit 73 (four- and five-car) operating units that will be installed by NYC Transit personnel in NYC Transit facilities. CBTC carborne equipment will be installed on the first and last car of each train’s two operating units. The original R179 car delivery specification required only that the cars be prepared to later accommodate CBTC installation. The R211 carborne equipment purchase will furnish CBTC equipment to outfit 92 (five-car) operating units under the base contract, 128 (fivecar) operating units under Option 1, and 89 (four- and five-car) operating units under Option 2 to the carbuilder, Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc. (“Kawasaki”). The R211 cars are being designed to have CBTC equipment installed by Kawasaki at its manufacturing facilities. The CBTC contractor(s) will conduct training for installation personnel and will support installation of all the purchased units. Longterm maintenance provisions for CBTC equipment will also be included.

Page 189

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/9/2018 at 8:41 AM, KK 6 Ave Local said:

I wonder what lines those R211s will run on...

Obviously it's too early for that but I'm curious

(A) , (F) and (R) have been confirmed. (E) and (F) will be up next.

On 11/6/2018 at 6:44 PM, R68OnBroadway said:

So we may end up with only 20 while other cities have had this technology for nearly 10 years? How long will it take until we learn that we need to catch up?

They are only test cars and the options can be converted to OG if requested. MTA never has, and likely never will buy anything in bulk they haven't tested extensively.

On 11/6/2018 at 7:23 PM, R68OnBroadway said:

So the numbers would be like this?

SIR - 75

No OG - about 600 cars

With OG - about 900 cars

We won't know until the OG train undergoes testing. 

Edited by East New York
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20 minutes ago, East New York said:

(A), (F), and (R) have been confirmed. (E) and (F) will be up next.

Logically, the 211s should go to lines in descending order of dwell time at their busiest stops. Their wider doors and enhanced customer information systems are frankly a game changer; they can arm commuters with info before they get to the station (minimizing delay-causing confusion) while facilitating the entry/exit process in general. So basically, send them to (A)(D)(E)(F)(Q) first. 

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25 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Logically, the 211s should go to lines in descending order of dwell time at their busiest stops. Their wider doors and enhanced customer information systems are frankly a game changer; they can arm commuters with info before they get to the station (minimizing delay-causing confusion) while facilitating the entry/exit process in general. So basically, send them to (A)(D)(E)(F)(Q) first. 

RTO basing the assignments on the equipment that needs to be replaced, and the priority lines are the (A) and (R). Nothing else really matters seeing as one day all 75 foot cars will be replaced by 60 foot cars. 

The (E) and (Q) are the only ones you mentioned that have 60 foot cars already, and could see a slight decrease in dwell times with wider doors. However on the other hand, dwell times will slightly increase on all the other lines you mentioned because they are being replaced by smaller cars with roughly the same sized doors.   

Edited by East New York
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40 minutes ago, East New York said:

RTO basing the assignments on the equipment that needs to be replaced, and the priority lines are the (A) and (R). Nothing else really matters seeing as one day all 75 foot cars will be replaced by 60 foot cars

The (A) and (R) line thing is solely an extant rumor as that's where 46s are now. The (R) is getting 160s well before 211s come in, and the (A) should receive a good number of 179s and seems increasingly likely to be filled out with 32s. If we're assuming in situ replacement of 46s, that means you're looking at 211s on the (C)(N)(B)(W) -- all hardly a good use of the 211's considerable capabilities. 

Car assignments are flexible; where the 211s end up going is not *necessarily* correlated with any current assignment -- in fact I hope that systemic function takes precedence over simplicity here. 

40 minutes ago, East New York said:

 The (E) and (Q) are the only ones you mentioned that have 60 foot cars already, and could see a slight decrease in dwell times with wider doors. However on the other hand, dwell times will slightly increase on all the other lines you mentioned because they are being replaced by smaller cars with roughly the same sized doors.   

There are three drivers of dwell if we're assuming all else to be equal: number of doors, size of doors, and seating arrangement. Car size (so 60 v 75) is notably not a factor -- that choice matters only insofar as trains of 75' cars have eight fewer doors per train.

Relative to R46s, R211s actually benefit the receiving line in all respects. They have more, wider doors (meaning higher human throughput) and also bench-style seating (which translates into better internal circulation). This is why I think it's so important that they be assigned relative to crowding levels; they have so much potential. FWIW, the need to do assignments relative to operations becomes even more crucial if/when we get OG cars. Load imbalance across individual trains is real, and mitigable with the technology...

Edited by RR503
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It depends, the R211's might still end up at Jamaica yard since the R211's are coming in cbtc ready. 

 

If not the base order would be pitkin-207  and CIY Based on the R46's being in those 2 yards due to Jamaica becoming all R160's . The option order would go to Jamaica to bump those cbtc equipped R160's likely to yards that will have cbtc (likely 207th st yard) for cbtc 8th ave service

If Jamaica got the R211's they would be mainly (E) and (F) with a chunk for (R) service. The (E) and (F) are 2 top priority lines, it's logical for them to have the newest cars since those 2 lines are 24/7.

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1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

It depends, the R211's might still end up at Jamaica yard since the R211's are coming in cbtc ready. 

 

If not the base order would be pitkin-207  and CIY Based on the R46's being in those 2 yards due to Jamaica becoming all R160's . The option order would go to Jamaica to bump those cbtc equipped R160's likely to yards that will have cbtc (likely 207th st yard) for cbtc 8th ave service

If Jamaica got the R211's they would be mainly (E) and (F) with a chunk for (R) service. The (E) and (F) are 2 top priority lines, it's logical for them to have the newest cars since those 2 lines are 24/7.

(E) (F) in my opinion shouldn't always get the newest fleet that comes in...its about time the (MTA) upgrade other lines just as busy as the (E) (F)....(A) (D) certainly comes to mind..🤔

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It's not about preferential treatment. It's just a matter of which lines needs them the most. With the 160s, they went to the Queens Blvd line over the IND north because two of the busiest lines in the system, the (E) and (F), were running some of the oldest and least reliable equipment in service at the time. Whether that carries over to the 211s remains to be seen, but if the open gangway pilot proves successful, and I don't see why it wouldn't, I would not be surprised to see the 211s displace the Queens Blvd 160s elsewhere.

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7 hours ago, biGC323232 said:

(E) (F) in my opinion shouldn't always get the newest fleet that comes in...its about time the (MTA) upgrade other lines just as busy as the (E) (F)....(A) (D) certainly comes to mind..🤔

Well, the (E) and (F) are very High Ridership lines. I don't know if you ever visited QBL but the (E) and (F) are almost always crowded so if 211's went there (especially OG's), it would be a boon for Queens Blvd. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if they had an occasional 211 pops up on the (R)

As for the (A) and (D) trains, 211's going there would make sense as well. As for OG's, maybe the (A) is the best candidate between the 2 lines. The (D) train could use any displaced 160's from Jamaica, Which could displace some 68's to the (N) and (W). I could be missing something here. 

With the (A)(D)(E) and (F) aside, I could keep going but this is all just speculation. However, one thing I'll say is that putting the 211's on the (A) first would be a boon.

Edited by LaGuardia Link N Tra
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I used to live in Forest Hills from 2012-15, and yes, the (E) and (F) trains are always crowded (well, there was that one day in January 2015, that I had to go to work in Supreme Court in Lower Manhattan after a blizzard when I actually got a seat on the (E)). I would totally understand putting the R211s on those two lines, though I imagine with the wider doors, there will fewer seats and thus more people standing cheek to jowl. They’ll hopefully mitigate that by running more frequent trains. 

I’d also be just as glad to see the R211s on the (A) and (D). Though with the (A) having three Queens terminals, it probably would better for the R211s to go to the (A) first.

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9 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I used to live in Forest Hills from 2012-15, and yes, the (E) and (F) trains are always crowded (well, there was that one day in January 2015, that I had to go to work in Supreme Court in Lower Manhattan after a blizzard when I actually got a seat on the (E)). I would totally understand putting the R211s on those two lines, though I imagine with the wider doors, there will fewer seats and thus more people standing cheek to jowl. They’ll hopefully mitigate that by running more frequent trains. 

I’d also be just as glad to see the R211s on the (A) and (D). Though with the (A) having three Queens terminals, it probably would better for the R211s to go to the (A) first.

In the morning, there are sometimes seats to be found on the (F) at Kew Gardens. If there are any, those are gone by 71st. They get crushloaded after Roosevelt.The (E)s from 179th are much emptier than those from Jamaica Center when at Kew Gardens. There are still some seats on those at 71st. No chance past Roosevelt though.

I am really looking forward to the R211s and hope that they come to Queens Boulevard.

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