R211 Discussion Thread

[JeremiahC99]

24 minutes ago, FLX9304 said:

How did you come up with 188 R179s for the ENY yd where they only have 100 (3050-3149)? The Pitkin yd has 227 R179s (3010-3049, 3238-3327) {5 cars} (3150-3237) {4 cars} 

I made an educated guess that cars will be moved around the system with this order. The 200 R211s for the  I posted there will replace the current  fleet. This means that the R32s will be retired and the R179s will be moved to East NY Yard alongside the existing 100 R179s. 100 ENY R179s + 88 displaced 207th Street R179s = 188 R179s for ENY Yard.

Pitkin has 130 R179s so add the two numbers up (130+188) = 318 total R179s.

Edited January 23, 2020 by JeremiahC99

[SimplyMyself]

2 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Well I did punch in the numbers by yard, and here is what I came up with:

Base Order of 440 R211A's plus R211T prototypes:

Pitkin Yard ( and Rockaway Park Shuttle): 240 cars

207th Street Yard : 200 cars (full length trains)

R211T assignments possibly on  or  but is subject to change.

Option Orders*:

Option 1 (640 cars):

Jamaica : 640 cars

Option 2 (437 cars):

Coney Island , , /, : 405 cars (8-car  trains via displaced cars possible)

East New York /, , : 32 cars.

*How the cars are assigned to each service individually will be at the discretion of yard personnel and  preferences.

This would guarantee enough cars for each yard to accommodate current and future service needs.

For more information: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YqtovcsH7WCve-aDzBdk-tDT0nIBC6nO7MIuvWuvmbo/edit?usp=sharing

I don’t think that they’ll split the Base Order for the  lines, option order 1 for one yard, and option 2 for another yard. For the R160s, when they were being delivered, the base order and part of option 2 were assigned to ENY (4-car sets). For the five-car sets, the base order went to CI, with option 1 split between CI and JAM, with option 2 solely to JAM.

I’d say the base order will go to 207/Pitkin, along with some of option 1, since those lines are going to need it for 8th Ave CBTC. There are 354 R46 cars which is roughly 44 trains for the . You might want to have a fleet expansion for CBTC and for fleet availability/spares, so add 50-80 more cars for Pitkin. Now you have the . You can move those 13 R179 trains to 207, with maybe another 13 trains of R211 for the , that way it’s about 50/50 (All four-car R179 sets to ENY). With that all said, that totals to about at least 600-700 cars for 207/Pitkin. The other 700 or so cars can go to CI for the Second Ave Subway , Crosstown CBTC , and Astoria CBTC , as mentioned from the latest Committee meeting. As for Jamaica, that’s a complete mystery. If they end up for the , they’ll likely be scattered to the  lines, like what happened to the Cuomo sets.

At the end of the day, this is pure speculation, and as always anything is subject to change. Let’s wait and see as to what will happen! 

Edited January 23, 2020 by SimplyMyself

[subwaycommuter1983]

The MTA talks about the potential car assignments for the r211's and r262's in the last 30 minutes of this video. Enjoy!!

 

[Around the Horn]

Since we're throwing out our predictions, I'll have a go:

Base order

440 cars

SIR 75 cars

Option 1:

260 cars

(note: R211s displace the Siemens R160s to the which displace the R179s to the and the R68s to the )

380 cars

Option 2:

405 cars

32 cars

(I am not expecting many R211s to hit the or but I still see it as a possibility hence they make the list) 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Around the Horn
grammar

[FLX9304]

2 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Since we're throwing out our predictions, I'll have a go:

Base order

440 cars

SIR 75 cars

Option 1:

260 cars

(note: R211s displace the Siemens R160s to the which displace the R179s to the and the R68s to the )

380 cars

Option 2:

405 cars

32 cars

(I am not expecting many R211s to hit the or but I still see it as a possibility hence they make the list) 

You get the upvote from me on this. By the time the 211s hit the , would the Concourse be CBTC ready? The  would be all new tech. Queens Blvd, if it goes like you predicted, could see all NTT family.

[subwaycommuter1983]

15 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The MTA talks about the potential car assignments for the r211's and r262's in the last 30 minutes of this video. Enjoy!!

 

The MTA did not mention anything about the r160's being compatible with 8th Avenue CBTC. They only mentioned the r179's and r211's as part of 8th Avenue CBTC. Therefore, there is the possibility that the E may lose the r160's in exchange with the r211's.

The MTA confirmed that QBL, 8th Avenue, Crosstown and Astoria CBTC will be compatible with the r211's. The MTA only mentioned the r160's for QBL CBTC.

Also, the MTA didn't provide any information on whether or not Crosstown CBTC will be compatible with r179's or r160's, which may jeopardize any possibility of getting 8 car trains from ENY.

For now it is safe to say, although this is still subject to change, that the A, C, E, G, N, W have the highest possibility of getting the r211's in addition to SIR.

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by subwaycommuter1983

[darkstar8983]

56 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The MTA did not mention anything about the r160's being compatible with 8th Avenue CBTC. They only mentioned the r179's and r211's as part of 8th Avenue CBTC. Therefore, there is the possibility that the E may lose the r160's in exchange with the r211's.

The MTA confirmed that QBL, 8th Avenue, Crosstown and Astoria CBTC will be compatible with the r211's. The MTA only mentioned the r160's for QBL CBTC.

Also, the MTA didn't provide any information on whether or not Crosstown CBTC will be compatible with r179's or r160's, which may jeopardize any possibility of getting 8 car trains from ENY.

For now it is safe to say, although this is still subject to change, that the A, C, E, G, N, W have the highest possibility of getting the r211's in addition to SIR.

 

They should make their CBTC systems cross-compatible with all car classes above R160 thru the use of software upgrades, because otherwise you're going to end up with a situation in which now ONLY specific car types can run on a selected route, defeating the purpose of the FIND (or new version of the strip-map).

 

Right now, we have:

No R42s permitted on the  line in 8-car sets due to incorrect stopping positions (all trains would have to stop at the 10-car marker)

No R32/R42 permitted on the  due to clearance issues on the Montague  tunnel. This also affects the movement of trains from ENY to the main-line system. Trains can therefore only travel thru the  Chrystie St connector, or have to be NTT trains to go thru the Montague Tube.

No R46s permitted on the  line due to the Blind-end cabs being locked due to safety and preventing people from changing cars when the train is in motion, especially on sharp curves, since 75 foot cars do not align well when on a curve. Therefore the Train operators and conductors cannot walk thru the train to reverse direction, and there is no ledge i guess to walk thru the outside of the train at the Euclid Av relay (correct me if I'm wrong).

75-foot cars being discouraged from use on the Second Avenue Subway

 

 

If the upgrade suggestion is not taken, youre going to end up with the following:

R211s ONLY permitted on the    

R179s only allowed to run on the  line

The R211s assigned to the  will need a software upgrade to include compatibility with Queens Blvd CBTC or otherwise, upgrade the R160s. 

 

And let's not forget reroutes that lead to other car classes ending up in CBTC ONLY territory, or cars that are not compatible with a PARTICULAR CBTC system (like the  and rerouted via 8 Av, trains from the   rerouted to Queens Blvd, etc..

[Around the Horn]

35 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

If the upgrade suggestion is not taken, youre going to end up with the following:

R211s ONLY permitted on the    

R179s only allowed to run on the  line

The R211s assigned to the  will need a software upgrade to include compatibility with Queens Blvd CBTC or otherwise, upgrade the R160s. 

 

And let's not forget reroutes that lead to other car classes ending up in CBTC ONLY territory, or cars that are not compatible with a PARTICULAR CBTC system (like the  and rerouted via 8 Av, trains from the   rerouted to Queens Blvd, etc..

All CBTC installs from here on out use the same specs as QBL CBTC so the only cross compatibility issue will be R160s for the  versus R160s for the  

[subwaycommuter1983]

It seems that the MTA is trying to somehow expedite the retirement of all SMEE's as a result of CBTC. I wouldn't be surprised if the MTA orders extra r211's (in addition to the planned 1,612 r211's cars) to replace the r68's.

Right now, there are no plans to purchase "r268's", and it would be much faster and cheaper to purchase more r211's to replace the r68's.

Keep in mind there are 62 r44's, 750 r46's, 625 r68's.

Remember the whole subway rolling stock needs to be composed by NTT's by the time the installation of CBTC is complete in the entire system.

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

All CBTC installs from here on out use the same specs as QBL CBTC so the only cross compatibility issue will be R160s for the  versus R160s for the  

ahhh okay. I do know of that compatibility issue, hence the isolation of those 64 R160As (8313-8376) for just the  line, and when they are in service on the , they try to keep those numbers together (although not 100% successful every time). Because now with the substation built, the  requirements will likely be now 200 or 208 cars (25-26 train sets instead of 24). To think that the MTA thought that 212 cars would be "enough for the  line for years to come." 

 

 

27 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

It seems that the MTA is trying to somehow expedite the retirement of all SMEE's as a result of CBTC. I wouldn't be surprised if the MTA orders extra r211's (in addition to the planned 1,612 r211's cars) to replace the r68's.

Right now, there are no plans to purchase "r268's", and it would be much faster and cheaper to purchase more r211's to replace the r68's.

Keep in mind there are 62 r44's, 750 r46's, 625 r68's.

Remember the whole subway rolling stock needs to be composed by NTT's by the time the installation of CBTC is complete in the entire system.

 

62 R44 cars = 15 train sets (4 car R44s) --> 75 R211S cars in 5-car sets = 15 train sets (no option for growth sets)

750 R46 cars = 93.5 train sets  --> 94 train sets (8 car units) --> 940 R211s required to replace R46 fleet

222 R32 + 50 R42 --> 34 train sets of 8 car units ---> 340 R211s to replace (considering full length  trains, otherwise keep R179s on the  + 4-car units of R211s to  )

= 1280 cars MINIMUM required to just retire R32/R42/R46 cars. Remember that the B division is in the midst of a slight car crunch (low spare capacity due to unreliability of R32/R42 and R179 fleet. Now you need to consider the decreasing reliability of the R46 fleet, and the likelihood that some R46s may be retired BEFORE the R32/R42 cars are completely retired).

 

To retire the R68/R68A car class, you need

425 (R68) + 200 (R68A) = 625 cars (77 train sets of 8-car units + the 9 isolated cars for the Franklin Avenue Shuttle)  --> ~800 Cars required to just REPLACE R68/R68A fleet without growth options.

 

 

Maybe having a "projected car assignment will make it easier to view"

R211s for the  = 400 cars to make service + 80 as spares = 480 cars

R211s for the  Rockaway = 16 cars to make service + 16 spares = 32 cars

R211s for the  = 350 cars to make service + 80 as spares = 430 cars

R211s for the  = 190 cars to make service + 60 spares = 250 cars

R211s for the  = 120 cars (8-car units) to make service + 56 spares = 176 cars

R211s for the  = 220 cars to make service + 60 cars as spares = 280 cars

 

R211 Total: 1648 cars under this calculation.*

However remember that 130 R179s are available for the  fleet, so we can at the very least subtract 100 cars from the requirements above, leaving us with an R211 total of 1548, with the rest as true growth. No R68/R68A cars can be retired in this order using just the 1612 cars, unless an additional option for 750-800 cars is included. Remember that Phase 2 of the SAS will be coming and you may have a change in the R211 assignments such as:

to 125 St (keeps 240 cars to make service as it uses now for Astoria service)

 to 125 St (will now require 240 cars to make service due to the line extension)

 will be its own line from Astoria to Bay Ridge-95 St

 will be shortened to run only from 71 Av to Whitehall St

 

Assignment changes:

 - 240 cars to make service + 70 as spares = 310 cars

 - 240 cars to make service + 70 as spares = 310 cars

 - 170 cars to make service + 60 as spares = 250 cars

- 340 cars for its new route to make service + 70 cars as spares = 410 cars

 

NET CHANGE: = +200 cars needed for Phase 2 SAS

 total (720 cars - 430 = + 290 cars)

 total (310 cars - 280  cars = + 30 cars)

 total (250 cars - projected 370 R160s used = -120 cars)

 

Any additional Astoria or SAS needs can be filled by the R68/R68A cars that will NOT be on the .

 

This way, we will NOT end up with another car shortage like we did when the  was going to be sent up phase 1 and the  had to be restored. Some routes which have a high number of trains required had a spare factor of only 3-4 trains (like the )

 

 

*I know the spare factor seems a bit high, but with CBTC, we have seen that the lines that get upgraded to it like the  and now the   have upwards of 6 spare trains per route.

Edited January 23, 2020 by darkstar8983

[subwaycommuter1983]

42 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

ahhh okay. I do know of that compatibility issue, hence the isolation of those 64 R160As (8313-8376) for just the  line, and when they are in service on the , they try to keep those numbers together (although not 100% successful every time). Because now with the substation built, the  requirements will likely be now 200 or 208 cars (25-26 train sets instead of 24). To think that the MTA thought that 212 cars would be "enough for the  line for years to come." 

 

 

 

62 R44 cars = 15 train sets (4 car R44s) --> 75 R211S cars in 5-car sets = 15 train sets (no option for growth sets)

750 R46 cars = 93.5 train sets  --> 94 train sets (8 car units) --> 940 R211s required to replace R46 fleet

222 R32 + 50 R42 --> 34 train sets of 8 car units ---> 340 R211s to replace (considering full length  trains, otherwise keep R179s on the  + 4-car units of R211s to  )

= 1280 cars MINIMUM required to just retire R32/R42/R46 cars. Remember that the B division is in the midst of a slight car crunch (low spare capacity due to unreliability of R32/R42 and R179 fleet. Now you need to consider the decreasing reliability of the R46 fleet, and the likelihood that some R46s may be retired BEFORE the R32/R42 cars are completely retired).

 

To retire the R68/R68A car class, you need

425 (R68) + 200 (R68A) = 625 cars (77 train sets of 8-car units + the 9 isolated cars for the Franklin Avenue Shuttle)  --> ~800 Cars required to just REPLACE R68/R68A fleet without growth options.

 

 

Maybe having a "projected car assignment will make it easier to view"

R211s for the  = 400 cars to make service + 80 as spares = 480 cars

R211s for the  Rockaway = 16 cars to make service + 16 spares = 32 cars

R211s for the  = 350 cars to make service + 80 as spares = 430 cars

R211s for the  = 190 cars to make service + 60 spares = 250 cars

R211s for the  = 120 cars (8-car units) to make service + 56 spares = 176 cars

R211s for the  = 220 cars to make service + 60 cars as spares = 280 cars

 

R211 Total: 1648 cars under this calculation.*

However remember that 130 R179s are available for the  fleet, so we can at the very least subtract 100 cars from the requirements above, leaving us with an R211 total of 1548, with the rest as true growth. No R68/R68A cars can be retired in this order using just the 1612 cars, unless an additional option for 750-800 cars is included. Remember that Phase 2 of the SAS will be coming and you may have a change in the R211 assignments such as:

to 125 St (keeps 240 cars to make service as it uses now for Astoria service)

 to 125 St (will now require 240 cars to make service due to the line extension)

 will be its own line from Astoria to Bay Ridge-95 St

 will be shortened to run only from 71 Av to Whitehall St

 

Assignment changes:

 - 240 cars to make service + 70 as spares = 310 cars

 - 240 cars to make service + 70 as spares = 310 cars

 - 170 cars to make service + 60 as spares = 250 cars

- 340 cars for its new route to make service + 70 cars as spares = 410 cars

 

NET CHANGE: = +200 cars needed for Phase 2 SAS

 total (720 cars - 430 = + 290 cars)

 total (310 cars - 280  cars = + 30 cars)

 total (250 cars - projected 370 R160s used = -120 cars)

 

Any additional Astoria or SAS needs can be filled by the R68/R68A cars that will NOT be on the .

 

This way, we will NOT end up with another car shortage like we did when the  was going to be sent up phase 1 and the  had to be restored. Some routes which have a high number of trains required had a spare factor of only 3-4 trains (like the )

 

 

*I know the spare factor seems a bit high, but with CBTC, we have seen that the lines that get upgraded to it like the  and now the   have upwards of 6 spare trains per route.

It would be faster and possibly cheaper for the MTA to purchase those extra 700-800 r211's to replace the r68's, instead of doing a separate car order "r268's".

A separate car order to replace the r68's would potentially delay CBTC on the lines that heavily use the r68's, such as Concourse, CPW, 6th Avenue, 4th Avenue, Brighton and West End.

 

[FLX9304]

43 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

It would be faster and possibly cheaper for the MTA to purchase those extra 700-800 r211's to replace the r68's, instead of doing a separate car order "r268's".

A separate car order to replace the r68's would potentially delay CBTC on the lines that heavily use the r68's, such as Concourse, CPW, 6th Avenue, 4th Avenue, Brighton and West End.

 

The R68/68As are not due for retirement until 2028-2029

[subwaycommuter1983]

2 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

The R68/68As are not due for retirement until 2028-2029

Yes. However, will the car fleet that will replace the r68's be in service by then?  In order for this goal to be achieved, the MTA needs to have a plan already considering the lengthy process of purchasing, building, testing, delivery and testing new subway cars.

The MTA expects to have the whole subway system CBTC ready by 2030.

[Around the Horn]

34 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Yes. However, will the car fleet that will replace the r68's be in service by then?  In order for this goal to be achieved, the MTA needs to have a plan already considering the lengthy process of purchasing, building, testing, delivery and testing new subway cars.

The MTA expects to have the whole subway system CBTC ready by 2030.

If they can announce the R262 last year, come out with renderings and an RFP this year and expect contract award next year, they can announce a potential R268 at any point this year and have a contract award by the end of 2022. It won't delay anything.

[Maxwell179]

5 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

 will be its own line from Astoria to Bay Ridge-95 St

 will be shortened to run only from 71 Av to Whitehall St

prediction or actually going to happen ?

[bulk88]

11 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

No R46s permitted on the  line due to the Blind-end cabs being locked due to safety and preventing people from changing cars when the train is in motion, especially on sharp curves, since 75 foot cars do not align well when on a curve. Therefore the Train operators and conductors cannot walk thru the train to reverse direction, and there is no ledge i guess to walk thru the outside of the train at the Euclid Av relay

600/10 vs 480/8 stopping mistakes are why R46s were removed from the C.

[VIP]

3 hours ago, Maxwell179 said:

prediction or actually going to happen ?

Mere prediction I assume because the  from Ditmars To BayRidge  is almost the same Run time as the  from Continental Av-Forest Hills to BayRidge. 

[VIP]

1 minute ago, bulk88 said:

600/10 vs 480/8 stopping mistakes are why R46s were removed from the C.

Partially, the main reason is the Relays at 168. Switchmen jobs were cut so R46 equipment can’t be double ended. Therefore, R179/R32 equipment is ideal for the line for single person relays. 

[bulk88]

Just now, VIP said:

Partially, the main reason is the Relays at 168. Switchmen jobs were cut so R46 equipment can’t be double ended. Therefore, R179/R32 equipment is ideal for the line for single person relays. 

Every TO has a coach key.

[VIP]

2 minutes ago, bulk88 said:

Every TO has a coach key.

And? The R46 requires the end doors to be unlocked with a Vapor key, and in the unlock position the key doesn’t come out... The train operator can not unlock the doors from his position then go to the other end of the train, to then relay back into the terminal; he would have to then dump The train, go back to the rear section of the train-turn the key to relock all the End doors, then walk back to his original position... TOO MUCH WORK, time consuming. Especially if the train is a lay up.

[R32 3838]

The R211's are mainly for the and lines

 

there's no need for these cars to be on the and

if they go with the open gangway these cars will dominate Queens since it has the highest ridership

 

This order should be strictly for the Pitkin and Jamaica

 

if anything give concourse 140 cars since out of all the lines, the hasn't gotten anything new plus the is a high ridership route.

[R32 3838]

heres  my prediction

 

Base Order 440 cars:

220 cars to Pitkin for service

220 cars to Jamaica for service, pushes R160's back to Coney island to retire R46's

R211T 20 cars: 10 assigned to pitkin for service, 10 assigned to Jamaica for  service

Option Order 1 640 cars :

200 cars to Coney Island for service, Direct replacements of the remaining R46's

240 cars to pitkin to finish off the R46's

200 cars to Jamaica to displace more R160's to Back to Coney Island

Option Order 2 up to 437 cars :

300 Cars to Concourse to bump out the R68's to Coney island

100 cars to Jamaica

36-40 cars to ENY in 8 car sets for service ( Mainly for service)

 

so in total

 

Pikin gets 460 R211's + the 10 open gangway cars

Jamaica gets 520 cars + the 10 Open Gangway cars

coney island gets 200 cars

Concourse gets 300 cars

ENY gets 36-40 cars for fleet expansion

this totals up to 1537-1540 cars for NYCT

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by R32 3838

[FLX9304]

55 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

heres  my prediction

 

Base Order 440 cars:

220 cars to Pitkin for service

220 cars to Jamaica for service, pushes R160's back to Coney island to retire R46's

R211T 20 cars: 10 assigned to pitkin for service, 10 assigned to Jamaica for  service

Option Order 1 640 cars :

200 cars to Coney Island for service, Direct replacements of the remaining R46's

240 cars to pitkin to finish off the R46's

200 cars to Jamaica to displace more R160's to Back to Coney Island

Option Order 2 up to 437 cars :

300 Cars to Concourse to bump out the R68's to Coney island

100 cars to Jamaica

36-40 cars to ENY in 8 car sets for service ( Mainly for service)

 

so in total

 

Pikin gets 460 R211's + the 10 open gangway cars

Jamaica gets 520 cars + the 10 Open Gangway cars

coney island gets 200 cars

Concourse gets 300 cars

ENY gets 36-40 cars for fleet expansion

this totals up to 1537-1540 cars for NYCT

 

 

 

 

 

The highlighted reasons was for this: You will have to make Concourse CBTC, even though I would love to see the 60’ cars return to the  . 

and the total is 1,612 cars. You still gotta figure out where to put another 82 cars 

[subwaycommuter1983]

7 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

The R211's are mainly for the and lines

 

there's no need for these cars to be on the and

if they go with the open gangway these cars will dominate Queens since it has the highest ridership

 

This order should be strictly for the Pitkin and Jamaica

 

if anything give concourse 140 cars since out of all the lines, the hasn't gotten anything new plus the is a high ridership route.

Yes, there is. The MTA confirmed on this week s board meeting that r211's will be used for Astoria CBTC. 

I don't think we should expect seeing open gangway on the N, W, but the r211A's, yes.

[darkstar8983]

9 hours ago, VIP said:

Mere prediction I assume because the  from Ditmars To BayRidge  is almost the same Run time as the  from Continental Av-Forest Hills to BayRidge. 

actually its significantly shorter:

Current  - 90 minutes on JUST the route + additional time for relays at 71 Av + fumigation

New  to Bay Ridge from Astoria - 75-80 minutes MAX, with turn-arounds done AT the terminal (no need for pocket tracks at either Astoria-Ditmars Blvd or Bay Ridge-95 St)

Edited January 24, 2020 by darkstar8983