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East New York

R211 Discussion Thread

East New York

Program Updates Effective 2/20/19

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Collin said:

Originally the R211's were supposed to come in only 5 car sets, but now the Wikipedia article says that Option 2 will include some 4 car sets for use on the BMT Eastern Division.  However, it does not include the exact breakdown.  Does anyone know what it is, or why they decided they needed more 4 car sets?  My guess is that they're planning to run the (G) with 8 car, 480 foot trains after the (C) goes full length.  From my calculation, with the R143's, R160's, and R179's that are in 4 car sets, there isn't quite enough to do all that and have the appropriate spare ratio.  With the current number of cars, the ratio would be 17% in that service pattern, but in a different thread, it was said that 27% is typically the goal. 

Alternatively, if the (G) ran 600 foot trains, that would mean not as many 480 foot trains would be needed, so the R211's would only need to come in 5 car sets to maintain uniformity.

I also wonder whether there's political pressure to get the newest cars on certain lines, and if the R211's were only in 5 car sets, they would not be able to go In the BMT Eastern Division at all.

It also remains to be seen where the R211's enter service.  With the R179's, they were given to routes that were still running R32's and R42's.  If that continues, then the R211's would go to Coney Island and Pitkin which currently run R46's.  That would be different than when the R160's came in and a lot of fleet swapping was done, so the lines with the cars being replaced didn't necessarily get the new cars.

 

13 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Look at the note in the article which I added: 

These are almost certainly for increased service on the (L).

 

All this 4 and 5-car set math NYCT has to factor into orders now reminds of how much better married pairs were for operational flexibility.

Edited by R10 2952
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I've always thought married pairs were better.  We keep getting these mismatched fleets with unitized equipment because it's so hard to actually predict how many trains will be needed 10-20 years in the future.  For the (L), the 212 R143's were supposed to be enough to serve the line for many years.  But come 2005, they were no longer enough, so some R160's had to be placed on the line.  Then we were getting too many 4 car R179's and not enough 5 car R179's, but now that's flip flopped, so some R211's will need to come in the 4 car variant.  The problem with married pairs is all the extra cabs that are needed and take space away from passengers.  I think a solution would be to have a cab design that's easily convertible between full and corner.  When in use, it's a full cab, but it can be changed to a corner cab when not in use to allow more space for passengers.

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47 minutes ago, Collin said:

I've always thought married pairs were better.  We keep getting these mismatched fleets with unitized equipment because it's so hard to actually predict how many trains will be needed 10-20 years in the future.  For the (L), the 212 R143's were supposed to be enough to serve the line for many years.  But come 2005, they were no longer enough, so some R160's had to be placed on the line.  Then we were getting too many 4 car R179's and not enough 5 car R179's, but now that's flip flopped, so some R211's will need to come in the 4 car variant.  The problem with married pairs is all the extra cabs that are needed and take space away from passengers.  I think a solution would be to have a cab design that's easily convertible between full and corner.  When in use, it's a full cab, but it can be changed to a corner cab when not in use to allow more space for passengers.

That means every car will need two full cabs, and we can forget about open gangways.

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12 minutes ago, Lex said:

That means every car will need two full cabs, and we can forget about open gangways.

That sounds like a short term solution in my eyes.

 

Long Term solution to the issue when it comes to the issues popping up with 4-5 car sets would be to extend the platforms of the BMT Eastern Division so that they can be on par with the rest of the B Division. 

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1 minute ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Long Term solution to the issue when it comes to the issues popping up with 4-5 car sets would be to extend the platforms of the BMT Eastern Division so that they can be on par with the rest of the B Division. 

That was exactly what I was thinking. Hell, they should start it next year, not to mention that there are two stations that are candidates for special treatment when it comes to lengthening (Hewes Street and Lorimer Street).

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I used to make a big deal about platform length on the Eastern Division, then I realized the bigger problem is the lines themselves.  The Canarsie line between Broadway Junction and Bedford Ave is a case in point of a tunnel that really should have been cut through the street grid instead of following it.  Those 90-degree turns in Bushwick and East Williamsburg don't do the (L) any favors.  Same can be said of the Jamaica Line between Broadway Junction and Cypress Hills; I'm surprised the BRT didn't use the Dual Contracts as an opportunity to realign the route onto Jamaica Avenue as a 3 track el- real missed opportunity right there.

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1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Long Term solution to the issue when it comes to the issues popping up with 4-5 car sets would be to extend the platforms of the BMT Eastern Division so that they can be on par with the rest of the B Division. 

Honestly open gangway cars and selective door opening would render this a moot question...

Since most platforms can hold 9 cars, you can operate a ten car train and program the doors in either the front car or last car depending on the station layout to not open. An announcement would play after the "this is" announcement as the train enters the station. Something like this:

 

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22 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Honestly open gangway cars and selective door opening would render this a moot question...

Since most platforms can hold 9 cars, you can operate a ten car train and program the doors in either the front car or last car depending on the station layout to not open. An announcement would play after the "this is" announcement as the train enters the station. Something like this

 

It depends on how the ops is run. SDO was an absolute nightmare at South Ferry. Even the LIRR takes slightly longer to board/deboard at its selective stations.

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On 4/28/2020 at 9:56 PM, Lex said:

That means every car will need two full cabs, and we can forget about open gangways.

Nope, the R211is definitely getting gangways. They HAVE to.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/28/2020 at 7:28 PM, R10 2952 said:

All this 4 and 5-car set math NYCT has to factor into orders now reminds of how much better married pairs were for operational flexibility.

True, but at the same time, given that most Eastern Division station platforms can hold up to 9-car trains, they still wouldn’t be able to run more than 8-car trains composed of married pairs. In fact, I don’t think they even ran more than eight singles on the Eastern Division lines when the R10, R16 and prewar cars ran there. As a short term (post-COVID, whenever that will be) solution, I really think they should do 9-car trains composed of 4- and 5-car trains. However, that will require the purchase of additional R143- and R160-compatible trailer cars, similar to what they did with the R142As when they were reassigned from the (6) to the (7).

On 4/28/2020 at 8:39 PM, Collin said:

I've always thought married pairs were better.  We keep getting these mismatched fleets with unitized equipment because it's so hard to actually predict how many trains will be needed 10-20 years in the future.  For the (L), the 212 R143's were supposed to be enough to serve the line for many years.  But come 2005, they were no longer enough, so some R160's had to be placed on the line.  Then we were getting too many 4 car R179's and not enough 5 car R179's, but now that's flip flopped, so some R211's will need to come in the 4 car variant.  The problem with married pairs is all the extra cabs that are needed and take space away from passengers.  I think a solution would be to have a cab design that's easily convertible between full and corner.  When in use, it's a full cab, but it can be changed to a corner cab when not in use to allow more space for passengers.

They could try the arrangement used in DC on the WMATA 7000 Series. The 7000 Series are normally operated in 4-car sets, but in between the second and third cars is a coupler instead of a link bar, so in effect every two cars are still married pairs, but only car in each pair has a cab and the other car has hostler controls where the cab in the older WMATA cars would be. But I believe traction equipment is spaced throughout all four or five cars in NYCT linked sets, so if transit ordered married pairs like WMATA’s 7000s, they might wind up being heavier cars because all the equipment would have to be concentrated in just two cars instead of four or five, even without full width cabs in one car. 

On 4/28/2020 at 11:20 PM, Around the Horn said:

Honestly open gangway cars and selective door opening would render this a moot question...

Since most platforms can hold 9 cars, you can operate a ten car train and program the doors in either the front car or last car depending on the station layout to not open. An announcement would play after the "this is" announcement as the train enters the station. Something like this:

 

That certainly ought to be a technology implemented into the R211s and I’d be very surprised it’s physically impossible to do on the R143, R160 or R179 cars (though I wouldn’t be surprised if MTA bosses say that there’s no way to do it). Maybe we can start by trying 9-car trains on the (M) and locking out the last car entering Metropolitan (first leaving) and go from there. Though, like I said above, we will need additional trailer cars that are compatible with the R143 and R160 cars. (Should we even try with the R179s after all we’ve gone through with them?)

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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13 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

When is the test train set to arrive?

Original delivery date was "July" we don't know how delayed they were by COVID.

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On 4/28/2020 at 7:49 PM, R10 2952 said:

I used to make a big deal about platform length on the Eastern Division, then I realized the bigger problem is the lines themselves.  The Canarsie line between Broadway Junction and Bedford Ave is a case in point of a tunnel that really should have been cut through the street grid instead of following it.  Those 90-degree turns in Bushwick and East Williamsburg don't do the (L) any favors.  Same can be said of the Jamaica Line between Broadway Junction and Cypress Hills; I'm surprised the BRT didn't use the Dual Contracts as an opportunity to realign the route onto Jamaica Avenue as a 3 track el- real missed opportunity right there.

The curve radius mostly impacts the turning radius required of trains, which is a limit of individual car lengths. If the platforms could fit them, 600 ft trains comprised of 60 foot cars would be fine, since those cars are already being used on those lines.

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2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The curve radius mostly impacts the turning radius required of trains, which is a limit of individual car lengths. If the platforms could fit them, 600 ft trains comprised of 60 foot cars would be fine, since those cars are already being used on those lines.

It was more a point I was making about the Eastern Division in general; the Canarsie alignment west of Myrtle and the Jamaica alignment east of Broadway Junction leave a lot to be desired, regardless of train length.

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2 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

It was more a point I was making about the Eastern Division in general; the Canarsie alignment west of Myrtle and the Jamaica alignment east of Broadway Junction leave a lot to be desired, regardless of train length.

It's worth noting a couple things:

  • historically, when they were built Williamsburg was a massive industrial jobs center, which meant that you needed to be fast enough to be time competitive to Williamsburg and not necessarily beyond it
  • via Williamsburg was generally never going to be time competitive to Downtown or Midtown because the routing to both is not very direct; at that point, it's more important to serve the areas you're going through on the way. If you wanted a fast downtown express we haven't even fully utilized the Fulton Line yet, which would be an easier place to start.

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Will the R211s have the door chime like the R143, R160 and R188 or the older one like the R142 and R142A?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, happy283 said:

Will the R211s have the door chime like the R143, R160 and R188 or the older one like the R142 and R142A?

no they gonna have the conductor yell "stand clear of the closing doors" down the platform 

Edited by nightmare402
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Are the R211s currently being built or are they still in pause because of COVID-19 

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8 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

I think building the train isn’t going to the problem, it’s going to be transporting the prototype from Japan.

 

the Trains are being Built here, they should be 90% complete in Nebraska which is where the first 10 car train is being built at

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1 minute ago, Kamen Rider said:

Kawasaki always builds the class prototype at Kobe.

Not this time. The prototype is coming from Lincoln, Nebraska.

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2 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

Really?... explain this big boy...

 

 

 

That is the non operational mock up numbered 4256. Everything on it works except it cannot run under its own power. It was produced for MTA brass to inspect before the all clear was given to construct the actual fully functioning prototypes. You can see more photos of it in the January 2020 CPOC booklet and on the MTA flickr account:

49419947913_219448c062_b.jpg

Here are the actual prototype R211s under construction in Lincoln (note the WMATA 7000 series in the background): 

49420414996_9f71e1df9e_o.jpg

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Paint all the doors blue, dammit! Looks stupid like this. And the corporate scheme/late R16s did it before!

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