R211 Discussion Thread

[R68ACTrain]

48 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

The portion above 59th street is technically 8th Ave but under different names. 

Eh, but it’s still not called 8th Avenue, and regardless, CBTC cannot be installed until the R68s are gonna along CPW.

[R32 3838]

CPW is apart of the 8th ave IND line. the CBTC will start from Jay st and go all the way up to 50th st. if anything happens the will terminate at 59th st 9southbound) or be rerouted up broadway to 96th and 2nd. So it's not really a very big deal.

Edited February 13, 2021 by R32 3838

[subwaycommuter1983]

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

CPW is apart of the 8th ave IND line. the CBTC will start from Jay st and go all the way up to 50th st. if anything happens the will terminate at 59th st 9southbound) or be rerouted up broadway to 96th and 2nd. So it's not really a very big deal.

Not a very big deal??

That 's a huge disruption in service (especially if it happen during rush hour) which will also impact service on the A,C,N,Q,R,W.

The MTA needs to get it's act together and install CBTC on the whole system because worsening service on some lines to improve service on other lines is not the way to fix the subway system. All riders pay the same fare!!! 

Edited February 13, 2021 by subwaycommuter1983

[R10 2952]

1 hour ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The MTA needs to get it's act together and install CBTC on the whole system because worsening service on some lines to improve service on other lines is not the way to fix the subway system. All riders pay the same fare!!! 

Again, where are they going to get the money for all this?

The agency is completely broke, and the federal government is not going to write them a blank check.  Senate Democrats are having a difficult time as it is trying to get the coronavirus package passed through reconciliation, and Biden looks like he might still cave to Republican demands for axing assistance to state and local governments.

If the state and city do not get that assistance, no amount of letter-writing or public pressure is going to change anything.  Full CBTC will become a pipe dream and the R68s might end up sticking around for another decade or more.

Can't award contracts if you don't have the funds.

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

Again, where are they going to get the money for all this?

The agency is completely broke, and the federal government is not going to write them a blank check.  Senate Democrats are having a difficult time as it is trying to get the coronavirus package passed through reconciliation, and Biden looks like he might still cave to Republican demands for axing assistance to state and local governments.

If the state and city do not get that assistance, no amount of letter-writing or public pressure is going to change anything.  Full CBTC will become a pipe dream and the R68s might end up sticking around for another decade or more.

Can't award contracts if you don't have the funds.

Thanks for pointing out what so many people have overlooked. The first order of R211 cars is the only one funded if my memory is correct. The US government doesn't run on the whims of the state of New York,  the , NYC,  or it's railfans. Try living in the real world where there is (supposedly) give and take between the politicians in DC. I've been around for over 70 years and I've seen this movie too many times. I still remember the old folks saying " don't count your chickens before they hatch ". Slightly off topic but there seems to be a huge disconnect between some posters and the concerning ridership numbers. People claiming packed trains while the official stats say otherwise. There's no way that the feds will support increased funding in that case.  New trains or CBTC  are NOT guaranteed. Increased funding is just a pipe dream at this stage. Just my thoughts.  Carry on. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Trainmaster5

[Around the Horn]

9 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

And, instead of getting extra R211s, since the  is no where near getting CBTC, just have the  run those R68/As only. Then the

 and use the R160Bs, and R211As.

Well the situation is basically this: among the Coney Island lines (and by proxy the as well) someone is getting the R211s and someone is getting the R68/As and R160s 

6th Avenue is next for CBTC after 8th Avenue and before Broadway which means its more likely that the will get the R211s and the will have the remaining R68/As and round out the fleet with R160s (and then receive R268s or whatever number they assign the R68/A replacements). However that does not necessarily rule out the reverse ( R68/As, R211s). I would prepare for either eventuality but lean on the former rather than the latter.

Barring a change of heart amongst RTO (which I mean its RTO, anything is possible) the is out of the running as it would be receiving 4 car R160s or R179s for 480' trains.

[1998NewFlyer]

57 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Well the situation is basically this: among the Coney Island lines (and by proxy the as well) someone is getting the R211s and someone is getting the R68/As and R160s 

6th Avenue is next for CBTC after 8th Avenue and before Broadway which means its more likely that the will get the R211s and the will have the remaining R68/As and round out the fleet with R160s (and then receive R268s or whatever number they assign the R68/A replacements). However that does not necessarily rule out the reverse ( R68/As, R211s). I would prepare for either eventuality but lean on the former rather than the latter.

Barring a change of heart amongst RTO (which I mean its RTO, anything is possible) the is out of the running as it would be receiving 4 car R160s or R179s for 480' trains.

R268s? Is that a future contract or just foarmer's dreams?

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Thanks for pointing out what so many people have overlooked. The first order of R211 cars is the only one funded if my memory is correct. The US government doesn't run on the whims of the state of New York,  the , NYC,  or it's railfans. Try living in the real world where there is (supposedly) give and take between the politicians in DC. I've been around for over 70 years and I've seen this movie too many times. I still remember the old folks saying " don't count your chickens before they hatch ". Slightly off topic but there seems to be a huge disconnect between some posters and the concerning ridership numbers. People claiming packed trains while the official stats say otherwise. There's no way that the feds will support increased funding in that case.  New trains or CBTC  are NOT guaranteed. Increased funding is just a pipe dream at this stage. Just my thoughts.  Carry on. 

Agreed. The feds could give a rat's ass about problems that only affect the state of New York. In fact, Congress is not going to pass anything that only benefits one particular state, whether that is New York, Florida, Texas, Wyoming, or whatever. NY gets the lion's share of federal funding of transit anyways; the only way out is a transit package for every single city and state, and I'll believe that passes when I see it.

Not only that, but the MTA's financial hole is so deep it cannot be fixed by the feds. The Capital Plan is $51B dollars. The total FTA allocation is $12B. You are absolutely insane if you think the FTA is just going to give a blank check to the MTA and give no money to anybody else.

---

The "packed trains" narrative, as study and study have shown multiple times, is usually actually just people packing cars near exits, so that would be my guess.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

6 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Thanks for pointing out what so many people have overlooked. The first order of R211 cars is the only one funded if my memory is correct. The US government doesn't run on the whims of the state of New York,  the , NYC,  or it's railfans. Try living in the real world where there is (supposedly) give and take between the politicians in DC. I've been around for over 70 years and I've seen this movie too many times. I still remember the old folks saying " don't count your chickens before they hatch ". Slightly off topic but there seems to be a huge disconnect between some posters and the concerning ridership numbers. People claiming packed trains while the official stats say otherwise. There's no way that the feds will support increased funding in that case.  New trains or CBTC  are NOT guaranteed. Increased funding is just a pipe dream at this stage. Just my thoughts.  Carry on. 

This is certainly true. The MTA’s had enough trouble making the entire subway ADA-compliant for so long. And that was pre-pandemic. How are we going make it all CBTC too? The R62/R62As and R68/R68As are running well, so we really don’t need to worry about replacing them now. Maybe 5-10 years from now. Though that will require CBTC on the A Division main line routes to be pushed further down the road. The R46s on the other hand are not holding up well and I still think we should get funding to purchase enough cars to retire the entire R46 fleet and the R44 SI cars. Keeping the a substantial number of the R46s in service for another 5-10 years is going to cost the MTA more if they have to get sent to the shop for mechanical problems repeatedly. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Around the Horn]

5 hours ago, 1998NewFlyer said:

R268s? Is that a future contract or just foarmer's dreams?

Nothing official, just speculation since the R262s are replacing the R62/As

[subwaycommuter1983]

21 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Again, where are they going to get the money for all this?

The agency is completely broke, and the federal government is not going to write them a blank check.  Senate Democrats are having a difficult time as it is trying to get the coronavirus package passed through reconciliation, and Biden looks like he might still cave to Republican demands for axing assistance to state and local governments.

If the state and city do not get that assistance, no amount of letter-writing or public pressure is going to change anything.  Full CBTC will become a pipe dream and the R68s might end up sticking around for another decade or more.

Can't award contracts if you don't have the funds.

So in other words, subway riders will have to continue to pay higher and higher fares for lousy service.

I guess we are going to have to tell subway riders to start taking driving lessons.

[R10 2952]

21 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Thanks for pointing out what so many people have overlooked. The first order of R211 cars is the only one funded if my memory is correct. The US government doesn't run on the whims of the state of New York,  the , NYC,  or it's railfans. Try living in the real world where there is (supposedly) give and take between the politicians in DC. I've been around for over 70 years and I've seen this movie too many times. I still remember the old folks saying " don't count your chickens before they hatch ". Slightly off topic but there seems to be a huge disconnect between some posters and the concerning ridership numbers. People claiming packed trains while the official stats say otherwise. There's no way that the feds will support increased funding in that case.  New trains or CBTC  are NOT guaranteed. Increased funding is just a pipe dream at this stage. Just my thoughts.  Carry on. 

Very true; unlike you and I, some posters on these boards nowadays seem to be living in fantasy-land. Personally, I miss the days when INDman and/or SubwayGuy would give the foamers a verbal tongue-lashing.  It kept things in balance.

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

Very true; unlike you and I, some posters on these boards nowadays seem to be living in fantasy-land. Personally, I miss the days when INDman and/or SubwayGuy would give the foamers a verbal tongue-lashing.  It kept things in balance.

 

I don't see the issue with people discussing on what they think is going to happen. This is what a transit forum is for. when new car orders come about, everyone always speculate on what is going to happen anyway. It's not that serious as you guys make it to be.

 

now with the funding, it's understandable. we don't know if the option order cars will be purchased or not but at the same time the R46's are becoming shot and the bodies will not hold up for another 10-15 years.

 

It's a wait and see thing. if we get the funding, then we should be good. If not oh well life goes on. You guys take things to the extreme when everyone is just having a civil convo besides the very few who can be annoying.

 

 

 

 

[R10 2952]

36 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

I don't see the issue with people discussing on what they think is going to happen. This is what a transit forum is for. when new car orders come about, everyone always speculate on what is going to happen anyway. It's not that serious as you guys make it to be.

now with the funding, it's understandable. we don't know if the option order cars will be purchased or not but at the same time the R46's are becoming shot and the bodies will not hold up for another 10-15 years.

It's a wait and see thing. if we get the funding, then we should be good. If not oh well life goes on. You guys take things to the extreme when everyone is just having a civil convo besides the very few who can be annoying.

Not directed at you, but definitely directing it at the people in bold is what I'm saying.

Edited February 14, 2021 by R10 2952

[subwaycommuter1983]

On 2/14/2021 at 1:57 PM, R10 2952 said:

Very true; unlike you and I, some posters on these boards nowadays seem to be living in fantasy-land. Personally, I miss the days when INDman and/or SubwayGuy would give the foamers a verbal tongue-lashing.  It kept things in balance.

Keep in mind that not everyone in this forum works for the MTA or has deep understanding of how the NYC subway system works.

Also, do you all think that subway riders are going to be happy a year from now when they have to pay higher fares and still get to a job interview or get to work late because of subway delays due to signal issues or mechanical problems??

[R10 2952]

13 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Also, do you all think that subway riders are going to be happy a year from now when they have to pay higher fares and still get to a job interview or get to work late because of subway delays due to signal issues or mechanical problems??

I don't, but the realist in me says things will get worse before they get better; it will be at least 10 years before large scale improvements become financially feasible again.  Bear in mind that the MTA was already heavily burdened by debt before March 2020- the coronavirus was simply the straw that broke the camel's back.

Edited February 15, 2021 by R10 2952

[Jemorie]

23 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

I don't see the issue with people discussing on what they think is going to happen. This is what a transit forum is for. when new car orders come about, everyone always speculate on what is going to happen anyway. It's not that serious as you guys make it to be.

Speculations get repetitive after a while because people repeat the same proposals all the time just to keep threads active while reality remains the same until something actually does happen.

[subwaycommuter1983]

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

I don't, but the realist in me says things will get worse before they get better; it will be at least 10 years before large scale improvements become financially feasible again.  Bear in mind that the MTA was already heavily burdened by debt before March 2020- the coronavirus was simply the straw that broke the camel's back.

1980's 2.0!!! SMH!!

To add insult to injury, crime is also rising in the subway and buses.

[NewFlyer 230]

44 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

1980's 2.0!!! SMH!!

To add insult to injury, crime is also rising in the subway and buses.

I wasn’t around back then but I heard NYC was something else back in the days. 
I’m sure what we are facing nowadays can’t compared to how things were back in the 70s and 80s. NYC just needs to get its homeless & mentally ill off the streets and I’m sure things would look better. 

[engineerboy6561]

On 2/15/2021 at 5:05 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I wasn’t around back then but I heard NYC was something else back in the days. 
I’m sure what we are facing nowadays can’t compared to how things were back in the 70s and 80s. NYC just needs to get its homeless & mentally ill off the streets and I’m sure things would look better. 

True, but "just" getting homeless people off the streets means building enough low- and middle-income housing that you can keep most of the people who got priced out of housing back into housing, which means building enough new apartments that you can create economically integrated mixed-income housing (which prevents a lot of the crime and social ills you get when you create pockets of concentrated poverty), which requires a combination of legislation, taxes, and city-built housing that nobody seems to have the appetite to make possible. That kind of push would definitely require Albany to kick in money, and would realistically need federal money to make possible (as well as a repeal of the Faircloth Amendment).

Most other approaches aren't actually going to fix the problem, or are only going to do so at the expense of a whole lot of other things we really don't want to give up; police crackdowns are just going to move the problem around and leave a lot of black and brown people beaten or dead for nothing, and relaxing the laws around institutionalization of the mentally ill is a fast route back to the bad old days of Willowbrook. I'd love to see NYC, Albany, and Washington actually work together to fix this, but I'd be surprised if that happens in the next ten years.

Edited February 17, 2021 by engineerboy6561

[biGC323232]

On 2/15/2021 at 5:05 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I wasn’t around back then but I heard NYC was something else back in the days. 
I’m sure what we are facing nowadays can’t compared to how things were back in the 70s and 80s. NYC just needs to get its homeless & mentally ill off the streets and I’m sure things would look better. 

Yes it was...The subway looked scary before even entering the station in certain areas of the city let alone when the trains show up....My home stop was the  at Pennsylvania Ave or Livonia Av on the  back in the late 80s early 90s and i tell u THAT  station was the scariest cause the projects was next to it...

[NewFlyer 230]

12 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

True, but "just" getting homeless people off the streets means building enough low- and middle-income housing that you can keep most of the people who got priced out of housing back into housing, which means building enough new apartments that you can create economically integrated mixed-income housing (which prevents a lot of the crime and social ills you get when you create pockets of concentrated poverty), which requires a combination of legislation, taxes, and city-built housing that nobody seems to have the appetite to make possible. That kind of push would definitely require Albany to kick in money, and would realistically need federal money to make possible (as well as a repeal of the Faircloth Amendment).

Most other approaches aren't actually going to fix the problem, or are only going to do so at the expense of a whole lot of other things we really don't want to give up; police crackdowns are just going to move the problem around and leave a lot of black and brown people beaten or dead for nothing, and relaxing the laws around institutionalization of the mentally ill is a fast route back to the bad old days of Willowbrook. I'd love to see NYC, Albany, and Washington actually work together to fix this, but I'd be surprised if that happens in the next ten years.

What I find so interesting is that the city is constantly building “luxury” apartments and mixed used buildings everywhere you go within the boroughs and you’d think with all the development going on they should have enough space to house all these people that are currently out on the streets and more. I wonder if these new apartments are being completely rented out because I’ve heard that many of those apartments are vacant. I don’t know how true that is, but if it’s true it’s a shame because of our current situation. Affordable housing in general would help everyone out whether if you are poor, or someone coming out of college, or someone with a family. I find that a lot of young people in their 20s like myself have to resort to having roommates if we wanted to move out and be independent because unless we are loaded in cash than good luck trying to pay rent and everything else you need straight out of college. It’s no secret that this city has gotten much more expensive within the past few decades and it was intentional. After the crap show that was the 70s and 80s, NYC seems to be on a mission to make this a place that appeals to the tourist more than their actual residents. 
I personally think we have the solution, but it’s a matter of getting the city, Albany & Washington to work together to fix all the problems that plague the city. However unfortunately there is a disconnect somewhere and as a result things are left to get worse. I mentioned in another thread that if I was the mayor or governor how could I be proud of all the homeless and poverty going on under my watch.

1 hour ago, biGC323232 said:

Yes it was...The subway looked scary before even entering the station in certain areas of the city let alone when the trains show up....My home stop was the  at Pennsylvania Ave or Livonia Av on the  back in the late 80s early 90s and i tell u THAT  station was the scariest cause the projects was next to it...

Older people would tell me that back in the days there were some places that you literally did not want to be at after a certain time or else you can run into some problems. Bushwick was one of those places that has gotten much better in recent years, but back then I heard that if you were coming off the  train you better pray and take your butt straight home lol. 

[engineerboy6561]

53 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

What I find so interesting is that the city is constantly building “luxury” apartments and mixed used buildings everywhere you go within the boroughs and you’d think with all the development going on they should have enough space to house all these people that are currently out on the streets and more. I wonder if these new apartments are being completely rented out because I’ve heard that many of those apartments are vacant. I don’t know how true that is, but if it’s true it’s a shame because of our current situation. Affordable housing in general would help everyone out whether if you are poor, or someone coming out of college, or someone with a family. I find that a lot of young people in their 20s like myself have to resort to having roommates if we wanted to move out and be independent because unless we are loaded in cash than good luck trying to pay rent and everything else you need straight out of college. It’s no secret that this city has gotten much more expensive within the past few decades and it was intentional. After the crap show that was the 70s and 80s, NYC seems to be on a mission to make this a place that appeals to the tourist more than their actual residents. 
I personally think we have the solution, but it’s a matter of getting the city, Albany & Washington to work together to fix all the problems that plague the city. However unfortunately there is a disconnect somewhere and as a result things are left to get worse. I mentioned in another thread that if I was the mayor or governor how could I be proud of all the homeless and poverty going on under my watch.

Strong agree; I'm in Boston these days and we have the same problem up here; I'm currently paying $1k/mo for a room in a 4br apartment. I wound up helping a friend try to take a run at Cambridge City Council to try to put a dent in the problem up here; the big thing I wanted us to do was to take state-owned land that the state was looking to sell, buy it up (since by law up here the municipality in which state land resides has right of first refusal on the land), and build actual mixed-income apartments on the land (by mixed income I mean four income slices ($0-30k/yr, $30-60k, $60-90k, $90-120k) and a fifth slice that floats at market rate, with each of the income brackets being charged 30% of net income. Now one building diced up that way is a drop in the bucket, but a few hundred, especially if they're decent sized (15-20 floors of apartments over a couple floors of retail), would likely put a significant dent in the problem.

The image above is an example floorplan for one of these buildings in Sketchup; it's 22 units per floor, ranging from 900 sq ft (1br) to 2400 sq ft (5br); at 20 residential floors tall it's 440 units; spread a few hundred of those around the city and you've just housed a couple hundred thousand people, including 40-50,000 people whose income would put them at risk for homelessness (more if you break up the 5br apartments in some of the buildings into a 2br and a 3br each). Furthermore, if you do the mixed-income thing at about those proportions the buildings overall would likely run a bit better than breakeven (which means you're talking about needing construction funding, but not perpetual operating subsidies), and that mix of people should give you solidly working- and middle-class buildings in ethos, and it should avoid the problems you see with Section 8 and NYCHA properties where you have pockets of extraordinarily concentrated poverty (and then crime, both from desperation and from people preying on the poor), which means that it would likely be significantly easier to get neighborhoods to take these buildings (and easier to make a case to compel them to if you need to).

If you assume the federal homelessness numbers in NYC are roughly correct (about 80k people), then building mixed income housing for about 400-450k people would comfortably absorb the vast majority of people currently on the street and in the shelter system (which then really leaves only a small number of people whose mental health issues are such that they can't hold an apartment, and honestly I'm pretty sure that once you get people addresses and onto SSI/SSDI you're only going to be left with a few hundred people who need more intervention in their lives than that, and you could probably build community housing with in-building services to cover most of that population, and then the five people left who are enough of a mess to qualify for being sectioned under existing laws can be sectioned.

You'd probably still have a transient homeless population comprised of people who haven't made it into one of these buildings yet, but that combination should get rid of a lot of the encampments at Penn and PABT without having to coerce the people in those encampments into leaving.

Edited February 17, 2021 by engineerboy6561

[R68ACTrain]

Now we’re talking about apartments? I thought this was a R211 Discussion Thread..

[engineerboy6561]

5 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

Now we’re talking about apartments? I thought this was a R211 Discussion Thread..

Fair; it might be worth spinning this off into a housing crisis/homelessness thread.

Edited February 17, 2021 by engineerboy6561