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R211 Discussion Thread


East New York
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Program Updates Effective 2/20/19

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The only small drawback I see with them is people putting things inside the door tracks to prevent them from closing. But that's really it. Not much else.

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18 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I kinda have to disagree with you. The (Q) runs just fine with the R160's, and if anything half of the base order should go to the (N) and (W) , which have an even higher amount of ridership. You haven't seen Astoria during rush hours, pre-pandemic, it's a mad house.

And honestly, the (MTA) is the worst when it comes to operational efficiency. They still haven't figured out what they're gonna do with the (C) after they f**ked up the R179 order by switching the amount of cars between the 4 and 5 car sets. If they're smart, they would take each B car from a 4 car set and insert it into another to make them 5 cars (like the R188's). 

The smart thing would have been to send the 10 car R179's to Coney Island and send some of the R46's to Pitkin/207th St, that way the (A) is fully next-gen when the entire R211 order comes in and Astoria & Brighton riders can stop complaining about the R46's.

I can see why they made the windows shorter in order to accommodate the larger door housings, but I agree with your standing. With today's technology they could've at least made an effort to keep the window size.

The base order of r211A's are going to the A/C due to 8th Avenue CBTC, which will require both lines to be fully NTT'S. This base order is barely enough to replace all the r46's on the A/C It's about time!!

The r46's can't stay on the A/C once 8th Avenue CBTC is complete.

A and C train have huge ridership and riders have been complaining for years about the A/C always getting the oldest fleet in the system. Look how TA workers on both lines don't want the r32's.

I don't understand why some people in this group are against the A/C trains getting new trains.

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17 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

(Q) gets or was getting more ridership (pandemic made ridership drop across all lines but is coming back slowly) than the (N) and (W), 2nd ave line carries even if it's just 3 stations. Astoria doesn't get the ridership that the (A)(E)(F)(Q) gets. Jamaica isn't keeping all of those R160's forever. (they aren't planning these cars to have open gangways for nothing) 

It makes more sense to have the Base order R211A's for the (A)(Q) lines. have the (A) get the first 150-200 cars, give the rest to CI.

The 10 car R179's could be pushed to the (C) line to run with the R46's until the option order R211's making it 100% full length.

 

but if you want to look at it like this, the (A) could just get the entire base order while moving the 10 car R179's to 207th for the (C) to run with the full length R46's until the next option order.

I still see the R211T's debuting on the (E)

It doesn't make any sense to put the base order of r211's on lines that are not getting CBTC anytime soon. Work is already in progress on 8th Avenue CBTC and will most likely be complete before all option orders of r211's are delivered. Therefore, A, C, need to be 100% NTT's with the r179's, the full base order of r211A 's and possibly some r160's from Coney Island.

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59 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The base order of r211A's are going to the A/C due to 8th Avenue CBTC, which will require both lines to be fully NTT'S. This base order is barely enough to replace all the r46's on the A/C It's about time!!

The r46's can't stay on the A/C once 8th Avenue CBTC is complete.

A and C train have huge ridership and riders have been complaining for years about the A/C always getting the oldest fleet in the system. Look how TA workers on both lines don't want the r32's.

I don't understand why some people in this group are against the A/C trains getting new trains.

Take the personal feelings out of it. I'm looking at it from an operational standpoint, the (A) has functioned just fine with the R46's for the past 20 years, it can do it again for the next two years. 

The R211's are a brand new fleet and should be the sole provider for the (A). The R179's are still an R160-generation fleet and can be mixed in the (Q) fleet with the R160's.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Take the personal feelings out of it. I'm looking at it from an operational standpoint, the (A) has functioned just fine with the R46's for the past 20 years, it can do it again for the next two years. 

The R211's are a brand new fleet and should be the sole provider for the (A). The R179's are still an R160-generation fleet and can be mixed in the (Q) fleet with the R160's.

It's not taking it personal, why would you give coney island a car class that they don't need. pitkin and 207th have the majority of that fleet. you are not thinking about the (C) in which it has to go full length. the (A) could get the whole base order but that would only push the R179's to the (C) to join with the R46's. If you give CI the R179's, the (C) get's screwed. Then when the option order comes (if it's awarded) the (C) gets the standard cars while (if the order is R211T's) the (A) would get 140 R211T's to replace the remaining R46's on the (C) by the (A)  pushing 9-13 sets of R211A's to the (C) . CI wouldn't be getting anything new unless it's political.  207th's 8 car R179's could go to ENY pushing out the R160's to CI for the (G) (if the R179's are CBTC by then, they'll also be on the (M) )

 

Also post GOH the (A) has the R46's for 12 years, as time goes on they start to age alot and with no R32's to help keep the (A)(C) with a healthy spare factor, it makes things worse.

 

43 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

It doesn't make any sense to put the base order of r211's on lines that are not getting CBTC anytime soon. Work is already in progress on 8th Avenue CBTC and will most likely be complete before all option orders of r211's are delivered. Therefore, A, C, need to be 100% NTT's with the r179's, the full base order of r211A 's and possibly some r160's from Coney Island.

Pitkin or 207th don't need R160's from CI, By the time CBTC is active on 8th ave, the (A)(C) should be 100% NTT with the R179/R211's. 

 

 

Edited by R32 3838
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5 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

It's not taking it personal, why would you give coney island a car class that they don't need. pitkin and 207th have the majority of that fleet. you are not thinking about the (C) in which it has to go full length. the (A) could get the whole base order but that would only push the R179's to the (C) to join with the R46's. If you give CI the R179's, the (C) get's screwed. Then when the option order comes (if it's awarded) the (C) gets the standard cars while (if the order is R211T's) the (A) would get 140 R211T's to replace the remaining R46's on the (C) by the (A)  pushing 9-13 sets of R211A's to the (C) . CI wouldn't be getting anything new unless it's political.  207th's 8 car R179's could go to ENY pushing out the R160's to CI for the (G) (if the R179's are CBTC by then, they'll also be on the (M) )

 

Pitkin or 207th don't need R160's from CI, By the time CBTC is active on 8th ave, the (A)(C) should be 100% NTT with the R179/R211's. 

 

 

I agree 100%. I just hope that the MTA exercises all option orders of r211's. If they can add more cars, even better. Ridership is increasing and it will only take months before ridership is as high as it was before the pandemic. The MTA needs to stop thinking in present tense and start thinking in future tense.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I agree 100%. I just hope that the MTA exercises all option orders of r211's. If they can add more cars, even better. Ridership is increasing and it will only take months before ridership is as high as it was before the pandemic. The MTA needs to stop thinking in present tense and start thinking in future tense.

 

I don't think ridership is going to be the same pre pandemic until atleast 2023, alot of people want to keep working from home even if the pandemic is over, so ridership in all will be high but not as high as pre pandemic. You are gonna have a decent chunk of office workers returning to work in july so ridership is expected to increase by atleast 30%

 

Also i feel like if this order was a year earlier, I would have the Base order split between pitkin (gets 4060-4209) and CI gets (4210-4499) and have the R211T's split between Jamaica and Pitkin.

Edited by R32 3838
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2 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

I don't think ridership is going to be the same pre pandemic until atleast 2023, alot of people want to keep working from home even if the pandemic is over, so ridership in all will be high but not as high as pre pandemic. You are gonna have a decent chunk of office workers returning to work in july so ridership is expected to increase by atleast 30%

 

Also i feel like if this order was a year earlier, I would have the Base order split between pitkin (gets 4060-4209) and CI gets (4210-4499) and have the R211T's split between Jamaica and Pitkin.

 But why split the order when the R211A comes in , Pitkin could just send over the best R46s to Coney Island to help the spare factor until the option order is exercise 

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3 minutes ago, R179 8258 said:

 But why split the order when the R211A comes in , Pitkin could just send over the best R46s to Coney Island to help the spare factor until the option order is exercise 

 

I was saying if this order was awarded a year before and was delivered one year earlier, this way CI would get some tech trains and pitkin could get more open gangway cars , even if pitkin sends over more R46's it wouldn't help CI since you still  have the (C). But now at present day, it's best to give pitkin the whole base order so the (A)(C) could be almost 100% tech.

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On 6/15/2021 at 12:11 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

The base order of r211A's are going to the A/C due to 8th Avenue CBTC, which will require both lines to be fully NTT'S. This base order is barely enough to replace all the r46's on the A/C It's about time!!

The r46's can't stay on the A/C once 8th Avenue CBTC is complete.

A and C train have huge ridership and riders have been complaining for years about the A/C always getting the oldest fleet in the system. Look how TA workers on both lines don't want the r32's.

I don't understand why some people in this group are against the A/C trains getting new trains.

You put them on the A/C lines and you will have a very serious competition of New Tex. Especially if you have both standard and “articulated” gangway open cars operating on them, Plus the R179s on both. Yes sir ree. That’s from 168-59th, Add the R160s south of 50th St, and the competition is WIDE open. Different propulsions of these 3 subway cars will get your winner. 

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On 6/15/2021 at 1:27 PM, Lawrence St said:

Take the personal feelings out of it. I'm looking at it from an operational standpoint, the (A) has functioned just fine with the R46's for the past 20 years, it can do it again for the next two years. 

The R211's are a brand new fleet and should be the sole provider for the (A). The R179's are still an R160-generation fleet and can be mixed in the (Q) fleet with the R160's.

In what planet does the R179s going to CI make sense? I do agree with the leader, you don’t need another tech at that yard

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3 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

In what planet does the R179s going to CI make sense? I do agree with the leader, you don’t need another tech at that yard

In a planet where the (MTA) actually makes good decisions.

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5 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

You put them on the A/C lines and you will have a very serious competition of New Tex. Especially if you have both standard and “articulated” gangway open cars operating on them, Plus the R179s on both. Yes sir ree. That’s from 168-59th, Add the R160s south of 50th St, and the competition is WIDE open. Different propulsions of these 3 subway cars will get your winner. 

We have to wait and see how many open gangway trains the MTA will order with the option orders of r211's.

In the meantime, the E should keep the base order of open gangway trains, which is only 2 ten car trains, and the base order of r211A's should go to the A/C trains. Both lines will need the entire base order of standard trains in addition to the r179's due to 8th Avenue CBTC, which will most likely be complete before all option orders are delivered. 

The r46's can't stay at Pitkin or 207 once 8th Avenue CBTC is active.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

We have to wait and see how many open gangway trains the MTA will order with the option orders of r211's.

In the meantime, the E should keep the base order of open gangway trains, which is only 2 ten car trains, and the base order of r211A's should go to the A/C trains. Both lines will need the entire base order of standard trains in addition to the r179's due to 8th Avenue CBTC, which will most likely be complete before all option orders are delivered. 

The r46's can't stay at Pitkin or 207 once 8th Avenue CBTC is active.

 

CBTC isn't gonna be active on 8th ave until atleast 2024-25, by then 80% of the R46 fleet would be retired.

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

In a planet where the (MTA) actually makes good decisions.

Honestly giving CI the r179's would be dumb, they aren't the same as the R160's, they share the same design (they still look different) but have very different parts. It's best to keep the r179's where they are at, if anything pitkin would lose the 10 car R179's to 207th st to make the (C) 100% full length reducing the r179 fleet from 3 yards to just 2, while 207th st pushes out the 8 car units to ENY to then push out the r160's for 8 car (G) trains (this of course is all subject to change) With 60-70% of the r179's getting CBTC kits installed, the (M) could also run the r179's thus making it easier for CI to get those 8 car R160's for fleet uniformity. also keep in mind CI could still get a piece of the r211 order as well for the (Q)

all the CBTC kits in the R160 fleet except 8313-8376 has to be universal and Backwards compatible with all CBTC areas regardless of vendor, this goes for the R179, R211 and future orders as well. This is exactly why the all of the R160's aren't gonna stay at Jamaica forever. Jamaica Could lose about 30 to 40% of their R160's for brand new open gangway R211T's for the (E)(F) which makes the most sense due to the fact those 2 lines have the highest ridership in the B Division.

15 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

You put them on the A/C lines and you will have a very serious competition of New Tex. Especially if you have both standard and “articulated” gangway open cars operating on them, Plus the R179s on both. Yes sir ree. That’s from 168-59th, Add the R160s south of 50th St, and the competition is WIDE open. Different propulsions of these 3 subway cars will get your winner. 

the advantage of the (A)(C) having 2 to 4 car types is the fact they use 2 yards, 207th and Pitkin yard which could handle 2 car types each yard if they wanted to.

Edited by R32 3838
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

https://new.mta.info/document/42401

Delivery of the R211A in July, 30 day test in August 2022, production cars in September 2022.

R211S pilot delivery in August 2022, 30 day test in September 2023, production cars in October 2023.

R211T delivery in June 2022

 

With the way things are going on now, I wouldn't hold my breath with the the production cars coming in on time unless the chip shortage issue is solved before then (hopefully it is as biden is trying to fix the ongoing issue)

 

as for the 30 day test that depends on how the cars test, it could be pushed back by a few months. I still say within 18 months rather than the 12 months they are projecting.

these are just their goals, in which could change. Hopefully they meet these goals but i don't want them rushing these cars into service, we don't need another r179 problem (not the break apart, that was all on bombardier with their bad Quality control) when it comes to teething issues.

 

Also this proves that the (A)  or anything that runs on 8th ave is pretty much getting this order.

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19 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

https://new.mta.info/document/42401

Delivery of the R211A in July, 30 day test in August 2022, production cars in September 2022.

R211S pilot delivery in August 2022, 30 day test in September 2023, production cars in October 2023.

R211T delivery in June 2022

How many of the R46's are going to be replaced? The base order cannot possibly replace all of the R46's.

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38 minutes ago, Metajore said:

How many of the R46's are going to be replaced? The base order cannot possibly replace all of the R46's.

The base order has 440 R211As, which is just enough to retire the ~350 or so R46s at Pitkin/207th, which squares with the goal of putting them on the (A)(C) for 8th Ave CBTC, on paper anyway.

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base order would retire all pitkin's R46's plus the void of the remaining 100-110 R32's (if they never comeback into service) minus spare factor since these are brand new cars,but they would still need some of pitkin's R46's to cover for full length (C) service unless CI loses the R160's for an exchange of R46's (if they don't do the option order) if they do the option order then the (C) would be half R211and half full length R179.

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On 6/18/2021 at 10:49 PM, R32 3838 said:

 

CBTC isn't gonna be active on 8th ave until atleast 2024-25, by then 80% of the R46 fleet would be retired.

Honestly giving CI the r179's would be dumb, they aren't the same as the R160's, they share the same design (they still look different) but have very different parts. It's best to keep the r179's where they are at, if anything pitkin would lose the 10 car R179's to 207th st to make the (C) 100% full length reducing the r179 fleet from 3 yards to just 2, while 207th st pushes out the 8 car units to ENY to then push out the r160's for 8 car (G) trains (this of course is all subject to change) With 60-70% of the r179's getting CBTC kits installed, the (M) could also run the r179's thus making it easier for CI to get those 8 car R160's for fleet uniformity. also keep in mind CI could still get a piece of the r211 order as well for the (Q)

all the CBTC kits in the R160 fleet except 8313-8376 has to be universal and Backwards compatible with all CBTC areas regardless of vendor, this goes for the R179, R211 and future orders as well. This is exactly why the all of the R160's aren't gonna stay at Jamaica forever. Jamaica Could lose about 30 to 40% of their R160's for brand new open gangway R211T's for the (E)(F) which makes the most sense due to the fact those 2 lines have the highest ridership in the B Division.

the advantage of the (A)(C) having 2 to 4 car types is the fact they use 2 yards, 207th and Pitkin yard which could handle 2 car types each yard if they wanted to.

Just a couple of points I would like to make:

1. The (C) line should NOT get 10-car R179s, because it runs 8-car R179s, which could cause operator and conductor confusion when in daily operation. Rookie or supplemental crews might not immediately know the difference between an 8-car and 10-car R179, since the main difference would be in car numbers (3050-3237 for 8-car units and 3010-3049 / 3238-3327 for 10-car units), and staring at a tiny computer screen that indicates how many cars are in the consist. Seems like a recipe for disaster in my opinion- might as well just use R211A cars to fill in the gaps and keep the 10-car R179s on the (A).

2. The base order of R211As is exactly enough cars to replace the Pitkin/207 St R46s with no spare factor increases (unless you count the gangway test cars.

3. As for final R211 assignments, it’s still up in the air, so please do not take what I am saying about the R211 assignments at face value and interpret it as possible fact. The option orders should go to Jamaica for the (E) / (F), and R160s moved elsewhere. Again because there are so many moving parts and projects, the final assignment is unknown (such as 8th Av CBTC, Crosstown (G) line possibly getting longer trainsets, possible need to make 6th Ave cars fully CBTC compatible so they can run on 8 Av territory during GOs, dealing with poor/inefficient terminal and junction operations (Ditmars Blvd, 71 Av, Rogers Av, hint-hint) to improve service reliability

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Just a couple of points I would like to make:

1. The (C) line should NOT get 10-car R179s, because it runs 8-car R179s, which could cause operator and conductor confusion when in daily operation. Rookie or supplemental crews might not immediately know the difference between an 8-car and 10-car R179, since the main difference would be in car numbers (3050-3237 for 8-car units and 3010-3049 / 3238-3327 for 10-car units), and staring at a tiny computer screen that indicates how many cars are in the consist. Seems like a recipe for disaster in my opinion- might as well just use R211A cars to fill in the gaps and keep the 10-car R179s on the (A).

2. The base order of R211As is exactly enough cars to replace the Pitkin/207 St R46s with no spare factor increases (unless you count the gangway test cars.

3. As for final R211 assignments, it’s still up in the air, so please do not take what I am saying about the R211 assignments at face value and interpret it as possible fact. The option orders should go to Jamaica for the (E) / (F), and R160s moved elsewhere. Again because there are so many moving parts and projects, the final assignment is unknown (such as 8th Av CBTC, Crosstown (G) line possibly getting longer trainsets, possible need to make 6th Ave cars fully CBTC compatible so they can run on 8 Av territory during GOs, dealing with poor/inefficient terminal and junction operations (Ditmars Blvd, 71 Av, Rogers Av, hint-hint) to improve service reliability

1. Wont be an issue since the (C) is slated to become full length with the 8 car R179s cascaded elsewhere ((J)(Z), possibly the (G))

3. Assignments are still unknown at this time, however if I were to make a prediction right now, I'd say base: (A)(C) SIR, option 1: (E)(F)(R), option 2: (B)(D)(L)

Since Broadway is slated to be the last trunk line without CBTC, the (N)(Q)(W) is likely to get all of the R68/As with cascaded R160s from the (E)(F)(R) rounding out the service.

Edited by Around the Horn
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