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'Freedom Ticket' could slash many hours from subway and bus riders' commutes, fight overcrowding..


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The delays are only because of tight headway and prolonged boarding time at stations. This kind of problem should really be resolved by adding a third tier of service to create a three-tier system. The station at Woodhaven Boulevard should be converted to an express while giving consideration to those living at the far-flung corners of Queens who have to put up with long travel times. Build that Queens bypass and you’ll lessen the crowding at Forest Hills, Roosevelt Avenue, and Queens Plaza since a major source of passengers is Jamaica.

exactly! Also, adding a third track on the Jamaica El would divert a lot of passengers off of the (E)

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The delays are only because of tight headway and prolonged boarding time at stations. This kind of problem should really be resolved by adding a third tier of service to create a three-tier system. The station at Woodhaven Boulevard should be converted to an express while giving consideration to those living at the far-flung corners of Queens who have to put up with long travel times. Build that Queens bypass and you’ll lessen the crowding at Forest Hills, Roosevelt Avenue, and Queens Plaza since a major source of passengers is Jamaica.

 

To be fair, there is a fair amount of people getting off for the local at Forest Hills at well (and at times I am included in that), and with all the delays one stop is really not going to kill the QBL express any more. Forest Hills isn't a particularly jammed station anyways.

 

Unless we somehow get 75MPH capable NTTs like the old R44/R46s, making stops on the QB express is not going to be a major game killer either. Trains should stop at Woodside and Rego Park.

 

exactly! Also, adding a third track on the Jamaica El would divert a lot of passengers off of the (E)

 

Eh, I don't know about that. The speed of the (J) is one reason why Jamaica people don't take it over the (E), but the (J) also doesn't go to Midtown or Downtown Brooklyn; it's easier to take the (E) and possibly transfer to another service going in that direction, than it is to take the (J).

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Eh, I don't know about that. The speed of the (J) is one reason why Jamaica people don't take it over the (E), but the (J) also doesn't go to Midtown or Downtown Brooklyn; it's easier to take the (E) and possibly transfer to another service going in that direction, than it is to take the (J).

44 minutes versus 48 minutes to get from Jamaica to Chambers Street during rush hour. Guess which train makes it faster?

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44 minutes versus 48 minutes to get from Jamaica to Chambers Street during rush hour. Guess which train makes it faster?

 

One of these dumps you in front of City Hall and the former J&R, not exactly major business destinations in and of themselves. The other one, once all the WTC links are completed, gets you easy access to the PATH and WTC/WFC and that entire associated complex. (The (J) will also get you to the complex, but closer to the Fulton St side, and Broad St has very low ridership considering where it's located. It might be faster getting you to a downtown station, but if you compare the stations to where the jobs are, the (E) and associated transfers will put you in a better position to walk the rest of the way to work. You're also comparing the (E) directly to the (J) even though the (E) is on the other side of Manhattan; a better comparison would be the (E) to the (6), since the (6) and other Lexington services don't cut all the way to the East Side and waste time doing a crosstown jog.

 

Likewise, traveling from Jamaica to Atlantic via subway, Google Maps says that in the AM peak, a trip using the (G) and (E) is faster than using the (C) and (J). Going to Brighton Beach is faster using the (B) and (E), than using the (J) and (B). Going to New Utrecht Av is faster using the (E) to (D) than it is using the (J) to (N). Even when (J) trips might be faster, they are more convenient using the (E) because it requires less transfers.

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One of these dumps you in front of City Hall and the former J&R, not exactly major business destinations in and of themselves. The other one, once all the WTC links are completed, gets you easy access to the PATH and WTC/WFC and that entire associated complex. (The (J) will also get you to the complex, but closer to the Fulton St side, and Broad St has very low ridership considering where it's located. It might be faster getting you to a downtown station, but if you compare the stations to where the jobs are, the (E) and associated transfers will put you in a better position to walk the rest of the way to work. You're also comparing the (E) directly to the (J) even though the (E) is on the other side of Manhattan; a better comparison would be the (E) to the (6), since the (6) and other Lexington services don't cut all the way to the East Side and waste time doing a crosstown jog.

But in keeping with the original context: the (J) and (Z) would be a lot better with a third track. My point isn’t about destinations; rather, it’s about the fact that the (Z) and (E) and start out at the same station and the (Z) will reach the end faster than the (E) even though it’s a quasi-express. That says a lot about the (Z)’s potential.

 

Riders may give the (J) or (Z) another look if the express run saved even more time. Various proposals have been made including a single track diverging from the main structure running alone over Jamaica Avenue from Broadway Junction to Cypress Hills. The existing structure, however, needs a lot of work to support it. Maybe it’s a problem future engineers can solve.

 

It’s all about what each line offers and less transfer options with the lack of real express service may be the deal-breaker.

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But in keeping with the original context: the (J) and (Z) would be a lot better with a third track. My point isn’t about destinations; rather, it’s about the fact that the (Z) and (E) and start out at the same station and the (Z) will reach the end faster than the (E) even though it’s a quasi-express. That says a lot about the (Z)’s potential.

 

Riders may give the (J) or (Z) another look if the express run saved even more time. Various proposals have been made including a single track diverging from the main structure running alone over Jamaica Avenue from Broadway Junction to Cypress Hills. The existing structure, however, needs a lot of work to support it. Maybe it’s a problem future engineers can solve.

 

It’s all about what each line offers and less transfer options with the lack of real express service may be the deal-breaker.

I can only wonder how much faster the (Z) would be from start to finish versus the (E) if the (Z) was a true express through Queens and Brooklyn with a third track running the entire length of the (J) line.
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What would the stops be east of Broadway Junction?

An express station could be installed at Woodhaven Boulevard, but the width of the platforms would not be expanded since there’s no room for that. If ADA rules come into play when making the station conversion, I expect the station will be left alone. I can’t imagine too many ways the structure could accommodate many changes without demolishing much of it to be rebuilt.
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An express station could be installed at Woodhaven Boulevard, but the width of the platforms would not be expanded since there’s no room for that. If ADA rules come into play when making the station conversion, I expect the station will be left alone. I can’t imagine too many ways the structure could accommodate many changes without demolishing much of it to be rebuilt.

Here's always the ways they did it on the 2 Av el...just build an express platform above the local platforms and have the middle track ramp up to that level

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Here's always the ways they did it on the 2 Av el...just build an express platform above the local platforms and have the middle track ramp up to that level

Exactly what I had in mind. But that's exactly what requires a rebuild. Building another level over a structure not designed for it is not likely to happen with a simple stack.

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44 minutes versus 48 minutes to get from Jamaica to Chambers Street during rush hour. Guess which train makes it faster?

 

Once on the train, that might be true--but you have to catch the train FIRST.

 

I use the (J) A LOT.  Especially recently (I would say in the last year or so), I have been seeing gaps of service--and too frequently to be coincidental IMO. Coming from Jamaica into Brooklyn during the evening rush, I have had 18-20 minute waits for a train. About a couple weeks ago, I waited 40 minutes for a train to come. So something is going on.

 

And even when you get on the train, you're going to be delayed at Myrtle Av---I don't know what is going on with those signal people, but sometimes we might be sitting there 5 or more minutes waiting for them to make up their minds.

 

There's a reason why people avoid it--but if you're going into Brooklyn (Cypress Hills, East NY, Bushwick, etc) you have no choice.

 

It's such an underutilized route and I think if rebuilt and managed correctly, could be a very important line and take pressure off Queens Blvd.

 

But in the meantime, I would love a 7 day a week City Ticket. If I had to get into Jamaica, I would use the LIRR 9/10 times over the J train.

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Trains would operate via Sixth Avenue Express, with a connection between the Chrystie Street Connection for the Manhattan bridge.

The trains would operate via the 63rd tunnel and the Queens Blvd Local operating to Rosedale with the E.

The M would operate via the Rockaway Beach Branch and the R would run to 179th Street.

This service would be the K train. To Manhattan it would stop at JC, Sutphin, Woodhaven, Bdwy Jct, Myrtle, Marcy and then Essex. A lot of people would use this service instead of the E reducing overcrowding.

 

21770749134_5b686f8c64.jpgScreen Shot 2015-10-22 at 4.41.09 PM by spicker613, on Flickr

22367527086_d4d28800df_b.jpgScreen Shot 2015-10-22 at 4.42.45 PM by spicker613, on Flickr

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That’s a matter of service frequency, and it’s something the MTA could do something about more easily than the problem of infrastructure.

But wait time IS part of your commute time.

 

But if you are at Parsons/Archer at 4:40 and the (E) leaves at 4:45 but the (J) leaves at 4:50 (or later), then the E will get you to lower manhattan quicker.

 

Now, last week, on three occasions during the evening rush, I had to wait over 15 minutes (no exaggeration) for a J train.

One of those occasions I waited 25 minutes.

 

My ultimate point (getting back to the topic starter) is that if I had a city ticket or something similar, I would have grabbed the LIRR at least 2 of those occasions or possibly all three.

 

Something really needs to be done with the Atlantic Branch....it could really be put to use.

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But, I really think the region's transportation as a whole needs to get better and needs to become more integrated with subways and buses.

 

I really don't see any reason why people who travel within the city cannot ride at a discount--not just on weekends.

 

I don't think you need to go as far as a Freedom Ticket, although it would be great.

 

Just extend the City Ticket to 7 days a week. If LIRR/Metro North is really concerned with trains being overcrowded during rush hours, simply charge a City Ticket peak fare. But I doubt that would happen anyway.

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But wait time IS part of your commute time.

That wasn’t denied. But the key word is “potential” as I had mentioned before. Current service does indeed suck!

 

That says a lot about the (Z)’s potential.

 

But if you are at Parsons/Archer at 4:40 and the (E) leaves at 4:45 but the (J) leaves at 4:50 (or later), then the E will get you to lower manhattan quicker.

I miss the (E) train. Now what? The (J) leaves and then the (E).

 

You’ve just made a chicken v. egg example. Which came first?

 

 

Now, last week, on three occasions during the evening rush, I had to wait over 15 minutes (no exaggeration) for a J train.

One of those occasions I waited 25 minutes.

I’ve waited that long for an (E) train before at 7 Avenue; thrice at the start of PM rush. Train delays affect all lines except the 42 Street (S).

 

 

My ultimate point (getting back to the topic starter) is that if I had a city ticket or something similar, I would have grabbed the LIRR at least 2 of those occasions or possibly all three.

 

Something really needs to be done with the Atlantic Branch....it could really be put to use.

And my ultimate point is, if all other factors were equal ( (Z) has the same headway as the (E)), the (Z) would beat it in speed, and it would be even faster using a full-length express track.

 

 

 

21770749134_5b686f8c64.jpg

That’s a lovely edit, but the Chrystie Street tracks are actually not laid out like that. The southbound connector to Jamaica actually crosses under the Manhattan Bridge tracks. If you tried really hard, maybe you could knock down some columns and add switches between the northbound tracks.
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That’s a lovely edit, but the Chrystie Street tracks are actually not laid out like that. The southbound connector to Jamaica actually crosses under the Manhattan Bridge tracks. If you tried really hard, maybe you could knock down some columns and add switches between the northbound tracks.

I had a feeling that it was harder then that, but I have a feeling that something can be done. It would add flexibility.

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I had a feeling that it was harder then that, but I have a feeling that something can be done. It would add flexibility.

It won’t be just hard. It may be impossible without ripping up what we have currently.

 

 

I've been using the Broadway–Lafayette Street station frequently recently, and peering down the tunnel has given me a bit of insight into the layout of the area. Firstly, the express tracks (and the northbound connector from the Jamaica line) fly over the southbound local track, bringing it closer to street level than the main trunk. Before its construction, the entire tunnel from 1 Avenue to Broadway would have been two levels deep thanks to 2 existing lines crossing perpendicularly overhead, and 1 planned line (2 Avenue) also crossing perpendicularly overhead.

 

The current 2 Avenue station was designed with the new line in mind, and with 4 tracks. However, the design predates the Chrystie Street tunnel, and now I'm wondering if it's even possible to use the upper level of the 2 Avenue station for a perpendicular line. The 6 Avenue express tracks and the northbound local track connection gets pretty close to the 2 Avenue station itself. And a few streets down, the Nassau Street line crosses the area. I believe that tunnel is also 2 levels down (or sloping towards it) since the Bowery station is 2 levels down with provisions for another line running over it along the Bowery.

 

Adding those facts up, digging the 2 Avenue line 3 levels down may be the only option for phase 3 and 4 in the vicinity of Houston Street and Delancey Street. But the possibility of a cross-platform transfer is still open since the express tracks slope down towards the station at either end. The 2 Avenue line can slope up to meet at the same level.

 

The southbound connector to Jamaica goes underneath all of those tracks. How they’re positioned south of Stanton Street not known to me, but it’s definitely crazy down there with the tunnels weaving over and under.

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Trains would operate via Sixth Avenue Express, with a connection between the Chrystie Street Connection for the Manhattan bridge.

The trains would operate via the 63rd tunnel and the Queens Blvd Local operating to Rosedale with the E.

The M would operate via the Rockaway Beach Branch and the R would run to 179th Street.

This service would be the K train. To Manhattan it would stop at JC, Sutphin, Woodhaven, Bdwy Jct, Myrtle, Marcy and then Essex. A lot of people would use this service instead of the E reducing overcrowding.

But this K train would have to do an awful lot of switching in order to run the service you're proposing. First from the (J) to the (F), then from the (F) to the (B) / (D), then back to the local tracks in order to get back to Queens via the 63rd St tunnel, then switch onto the Queens Blvd local tracks to continue further into Queens. That's a lot of switching, which tends to slow trains down. You also have to take into account how frequently the (B), (D), (E), (F), (J), (M) and (R) trains run during rush hours, because this K train will be sharing tracks with all of those lines. There's really no place to turn the K in Midtown without disrupting other services, so that's out as well. And why even run the K on the Queens Blvd local and then with the E to/from Rosedale anyway (especially given that there's currently no subway line to Rosedale)? Riders will pass up the K in favor the E on the stretch of track shared by the two services because the E would still be the express under your scenario, while the K will be local on Queens Blvd. Even though you have the K running express via the J line, people boarding at Jamaica Center or Sutphin/Archer may not know about it because you have the K stopping on both levels at both stations, which may be quite a bit confusing to a lot of people. And the K trains stopping on the upper level won't be the express, so those same people may not be so inclined to walk one level down for "the other K" train.

 

Either leave the K on the 6th Ave express tracks and have it terminate somewhere in Upper Manhattan, like 168th St (even though it probably wouldn't be needed there). Or have it run via the 63rd St Tunnel and the Queens Blvd express tracks to 179th St, perhaps remaining on the express tracks between 71st Ave and 179th. Once CBTC is implemented on the Queens Blvd line, it should be possible to run three expresses on Queens Blvd. Or just run the K to Broad St with the J, the simplest thing to do. Though it may not siphon as many riders off the E if it goes to Broad, because the majority of E riders want Midtown (like on most other lines). The point is to minimize the switching, or else you risk delays and slowdowns.

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To me, the Freedom Ticket should be extended to Great Neck on the Port Washington and the Yonkers and Mount Vernon stations on Metro North. I know it would help out NICE and Bee Line, but combined with a Q12 extension to Great Neck and a Bx7/10 extension to Getty Square, it would eliminate the need to run the N20 and N21 into Queens in any way, shape, or form, as well as eliminate the need for any Bee Line 40 or 41 trips to run into the Bronx.. The Freedom Ticket could also mean the effective end of many express bus routes outside of Staten Island. The savings could then be reinvested in improved local bus service or Staten Island express bus services.

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To me, the Freedom Ticket should be extended to Great Neck on the Port Washington and the Yonkers and Mount Vernon stations on Metro North. I know it would help out NICE and Bee Line, but combined with a Q12 extension to Great Neck and a Bx7/10 extension to Getty Square, it would eliminate the need to run the N20 and N21 into Queens in any way, shape, or form, as well as eliminate the need for any Bee Line 40 or 41 trips to run into the Bronx.. The Freedom Ticket could also mean the effective end of many express bus routes outside of Staten Island. The savings could then be reinvested in improved local bus service or Staten Island express bus services.

People still need the 40 and 41 since:

 

1. They will still be cheaper than the Freedom Ticket

2. Metro North doesn't serve all 40/41 riders

3. Wakefield MNRR is 6 blocks from White Plains Road

 

There needsmto be more 40/41 service to/from the Bronx, not less.

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