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L Train Service Between Brooklyn & Manhattan May Be Shut Down For Years


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I've read this thread and re-read it again and it seems that many people like to overthink the likely (MTA) response(s). From what I've read in this thread it appears only one person sees the obvious (MTA) response. Only one tube will be shut down at a time. Period. That person rightfully asked how a Manhattan only (L) shuttle train(s) could be serviced if both tubes were to be closed at the same time. How would the work trains be supplied and serviced if both tubes were closed at the same time? My second question goes out to all those folks who have the (M) train being routed up the SAS during this tunnel work. Does anyone really believe the SAS will be up and running any time soon? My third question/observation is for all of you, fans or employees. I have been critical of the (MTA) for many things in the past but I'm giving them the benefit this time that post-Sandy work was done in a responsible manner and this (L) closure was not as critical or important as the earlier tunnel projects. Therefore I suspect that there will be service alternating through one tunnel while the (MTA) encourages riders to seek alternate means of travel. They could always supplement that with extra buses over the Willy B bridge if they have enough spare vehicles and operators. Anything more would be deemed too costly and overkill by the bean counters. The only person who can change this obvious scenario is the real boss, Governor Cuomo. It's solely in his hands. There is no local politician who can force his hand and he alone holds the purse strings to the (MTA). I'm trying to be realistic here when I say that if anyone from his staff or the (MTA) board would read some of these proposals they'd laugh their behinds off. Their mantra is KISS and keep it cheap from what I can see. The agency throws out this major shutdown proposal, scares everyone, and in the end the project is finished early and under budget and everyone is happy. When is the next state-wide NY election again? Carry on.

You've been critical of the (MTA)? Really? When was this??  :huh:  :lol:

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I'm curious, does CBTC make it any easier to have one tube with alternating directions of travel? Or, does it make it more complex than with old block signaling?

I would think it would be easier and and quicker then manual switching I imagine it would definitely be serious bottlenecks outside crossovers specially on the Brooklyn side. About a 4m run from Bedford and 5m from Lorimer to 1st ave normally obviously more if they reduced speed.

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You've been critical of the (MTA)? Really? When was this??  :huh:  :lol:

Reading is fundamental my friend but of course you knew that from the Bus forum. Although you, B35, SubwayGuy, RTOman, and BrooklynBus seem to see through the (MTA) and NYC government many folks out here seem to lap up these self-serving press releases like a kitten with a bowl of cream. Sometimes it pays to be cynical. Keeps one from being disappointed.

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About 15-18 rush hours, 10-12 middays/evenings/weekends, and 3 at night.

So it's safe to maybe say under the current track configuration with crossovers outside 3rd and outside Lormer with a 6 min run from station to station at current speed. You could run maybe 10 TPH via Bedford. I have way to much time on my hands today :lol: .

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I've read this thread and re-read it again and it seems that many people like to overthink the likely (MTA) response(s). From what I've read in this thread it appears only one person sees the obvious (MTA) response.1. Only one tube will be shut down at a time. Period. That person rightfully asked how a Manhattan only (L) shuttle train(s) could be serviced if both tubes were to be closed at the same time. How would the work trains be supplied and serviced if both tubes were closed at the same time? 2.My second question goes out to all those folks who have the (M) train being routed up the SAS during this tunnel work. Does anyone really believe the SAS will be up and running any time soon? 3.My third question/observation is for all of you, fans or employees. I have been critical of the (MTA) for many things in the past but I'm giving them the benefit this time that post-Sandy work was done in a responsible manner and this (L) closure was not as critical or important as the earlier tunnel projects. Therefore I suspect that there will be service alternating through one tunnel while the (MTA) encourages riders to seek alternate means of travel. 4.They could always supplement that with extra buses over the Willy B bridge if they have enough spare vehicles and operators. Anything more would be deemed too costly and overkill by the bean counters. The only person who can change this obvious scenario is the real boss, Governor Cuomo. It's solely in his hands. There is no local politician who can force his hand and he alone holds the purse strings to the (MTA). 5.I'm trying to be realistic here when I say that if anyone from his staff or the (MTA) board would read some of these proposals they'd laugh their behinds off. Their mantra is KISS and keep it cheap from what I can see. The agency throws out this major shutdown proposal, scares everyone, and in the end the project is finished early and under budget and everyone is happy. When is the next state-wide NY election again? Carry on.

1. Keeping a tunnel open will happen regardless. Keeping a tunnel open to passenger service is suicide on the MTA's part. If they have any sense, they won't do it.

2. Yes I do think SAS will be up and running.

After reading the recent information they have published the station area newsletters for January 2016), I'm fully confident that I will be riding on a 96 St-bound (Q) train by at least January 31, 2017. You can quote this post then if I'm wrong.

3. Keeping a tunnel open to passenger service is suicide on the MTA's part.

4. Look how the bus bridge worked during Sandy. I fully expect the MTA to consider it, if not implement a form of it (special M14 variant?). If buses are an issue, keep the D60HFs around a little longer when the XD60's replace them.

5. I see where your going here and agree with the one you're referencing but not naming. That still does not discount other proposals that have been suggested and should be considered.

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It's 23-24 during the Rush Hours, 19 during the Middays (Recent Service Increased) and around 15-16 on weekends. 

Wow! At the most with one tube open they'd only be able to operate at about 40%. And that's with the switches at their current distance and computer-based train control in effect for switching. At minimum trains would have a 6-7 min wait at Lorimer or 3rd at current speeds with single track operations at Bedford and First Avenue. That's a train in each direction roughly every 12 minutes if I were waiting at Bedford Avenue at rush hour. How do you spread out the crowds and encourage people to use other means? That's utter chaos.

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1. Keeping a tunnel open will happen regardless. Keeping a tunnel open to passenger service is suicide on the MTA's part. If they have any sense, they won't do it.

2. Yes I do think SAS will be up and running.

After reading the recent information they have published the station area newsletters for January 2016), I'm fully confident that I will be riding on a 96 St-bound (Q) train by at least January 31, 2017. You can quote this post then if I'm wrong.

3. Keeping a tunnel open to passenger service is suicide on the MTA's part.

4. Look how the bus bridge worked during Sandy. I fully expect the MTA to consider it, if not implement a form of it (special M14 variant?). If buses are an issue, keep the D60HFs around a little longer when the XD60's replace them.

5. I see where your going here and agree with the one you're referencing but not naming. That still does not discount other proposals that have been suggested and should be considered.

Please explain why you think it would be "suicide" to keep one tube open to passenger service. Are you implying that the tubes are in dangerous condition? I don't take the self-serving press releases the (MTA) issues too literally but if the tunnels were in that bad shape I'd think they would have been a higher priority post Sandy. I've worked G.O.s early in my work train days where the Joralemon tubes were shut down, separately, for 55 hour stretches albeit on weekends only. Water seepage and ceiling scrapes. I thought that was dangerous but the TA still ran regular service Monday through Friday. If you are thinking like me wouldn't the (L) line tube repairs come before the (R) and certainly before the (G) line work?  Moving on to the SAS remarks, let's just say I'm leery of any promised deadline from any government agency. Don't forget how many times SAS has been delayed over the years. Don't forget the tunnels already dug for the route that have sat unused for decades because I haven't. While we're at it how are the ceiling repairs going on upper Broadway on the (1)? The station repairs on the New Lots line ? Long Island Rail Road East Side Access? I really hope to see the SAS in my lifetime but so did my father and grandmother. The NYC Board of Transportation and the New York City Transit Authority both promised them it was coming but those agencies, like my relatives, have passed on. My folks did tell me "don't count your chickens before they hatch". Call me a cynic. Carry on.

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Please explain why you think it would be "suicide" to keep one tube open to passenger service. Are you implying that the tubes are in dangerous condition? I don't take the self-serving press releases the (MTA) issues too literally but if the tunnels were in that bad shape I'd think they would have been a higher priority post Sandy. I've worked G.O.s early in my work train days where the Joralemon tubes were shut down, separately, for 55 hour stretches albeit on weekends only. Water seepage and ceiling scrapes. I thought that was dangerous but the TA still ran regular service Monday through Friday. If you are thinking like me wouldn't the (L) line tube repairs come before the (R) and certainly before the (G) line work?  Moving on to the SAS remarks, let's just say I'm leery of any promised deadline from any government agency. Don't forget how many times SAS has been delayed over the years. Don't forget the tunnels already dug for the route that have sat unused for decades because I haven't. While we're at it how are the ceiling repairs going on upper Broadway on the (1)? The station repairs on the New Lots line ? Long Island Rail Road East Side Access? I really hope to see the SAS in my lifetime but so did my father and grandmother. The NYC Board of Transportation and the New York City Transit Authority both promised them it was coming but those agencies, like my relatives, have passed on. My folks did tell me "don't count your chickens before they hatch". Call me a cynic. Carry on.

 

Let's also not forget the World Trade Center site. Almost 15 years of back and forth financial negotiations to rebuilding this 16 acre site and what we have today is what I call a cemetery a.k.a "September 11 Memorial" with clueless folks literally taking selfies of themselves on the names of innocent people who lost their lives and my ol'so favorite the over-expensive white porcupine looking structure a.k.a WTC Transportation Hub. Yes, Billions of dollars tossed on that project alone just to make a station hub "pretty like a bird" instead of planning on track capacity and functioning customer use of transportation. Hell, Tower 2 once again is being put on hold, which I'm actually thrilled to here about as far as the stacked box redesign of the building goes.

Don't even get me started on Cuomo's new baby "Empire State Complex"/a.k.a Moynihan Station/a.k.a Penn Station/to quote MTA board member Charles Moerdler a.k.a garbage dump.

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Let's also not forget the World Trade Center site. Almost 15 years of back and forth financial negotiations to rebuilding this 16 acre site and what we have today is what I call a cemetery a.k.a "September 11 Memorial" with clueless folks literally taking selfies of themselves on the names of innocent people who lost their lives and my ol'so favorite the over-expensive white porcupine looking structure a.k.a WTC Transportation Hub. Yes, Billions of dollars tossed on that project alone just to make a station hub "pretty like a bird" instead of planning on track capacity and functioning customer use of transportation. Hell, Tower 2 once again is being put on hold, which I'm actually thrilled to here about as far as the stacked box redesign of the building goes.

Don't even get me started on Cuomo's new baby "Empire State Complex"/a.k.a Moynihan Station/a.k.a Penn Station/to quote MTA board member Charles Moerdler a.k.a garbage dump.

 

thank you!

I sure hope that if they go through the Penn Station plan they don't hire Calatrava!

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Let's also not forget the World Trade Center site. Almost 15 years of back and forth financial negotiations to rebuilding this 16 acre site and what we have today is what I call a cemetery a.k.a "September 11 Memorial" with clueless folks literally taking selfies of themselves on the names of innocent people who lost their lives and my ol'so favorite the over-expensive white porcupine looking structure a.k.a WTC Transportation Hub. Yes, Billions of dollars tossed on that project alone just to make a station hub "pretty like a bird" instead of planning on track capacity and functioning customer use of transportation. Hell, Tower 2 once again is being put on hold, which I'm actually thrilled to here about as far as the stacked box redesign of the building goes.

Don't even get me started on Cuomo's new baby "Empire State Complex"/a.k.a Moynihan Station/a.k.a Penn Station/to quote MTA board member Charles Moerdler a.k.a garbage dump.

I have nothing to contribute to this tangent. I just want to say that out of all the MTA board, Mr. Moerdler is my favorite. He asks the right questions and genuinely cares. We need more like him on the board.

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Please explain why you think it would be "suicide" to keep one tube open to passenger service. Are you implying that the tubes are in dangerous condition? I don't take the self-serving press releases the (MTA) issues too literally but if the tunnels were in that bad shape I'd think they would have been a higher priority post Sandy. I've worked G.O.s early in my work train days where the Joralemon tubes were shut down, separately, for 55 hour stretches albeit on weekends only. Water seepage and ceiling scrapes. I thought that was dangerous but the TA still ran regular service Monday through Friday. If you are thinking like me wouldn't the (L) line tube repairs come before the (R) and certainly before the (G) line work?  Moving on to the SAS remarks, let's just say I'm leery of any promised deadline from any government agency. Don't forget how many times SAS has been delayed over the years. Don't forget the tunnels already dug for the route that have sat unused for decades because I haven't. While we're at it how are the ceiling repairs going on upper Broadway on the (1)? The station repairs on the New Lots line ? Long Island Rail Road East Side Access? I really hope to see the SAS in my lifetime but so did my father and grandmother. The NYC Board of Transportation and the New York City Transit Authority both promised them it was coming but those agencies, like my relatives, have passed on. My folks did tell me "don't count your chickens before they hatch". Call me a cynic. Carry on.

You make multiple valid points. Especially on the priority the 14th St. tunnel was placed amongst others. I wonder more about the logistics and the complicated dynamics of communication and the dispersing of 300 thousand people daily. I could look at the Montague Street tunnel (R) it carries about 21% of what the 14th street line at 65k a day.With the load points being Barclay’s Center and Jay Metrotech let’s tally that up (2)(3)(4)(5)(B)(D)(A)(C) and more importantly (N) and (Q) that’s 10 lines to dissipate that load. The (G) as of 2013-14 daily ridership was at about 125k daily with about 9TPH either way. This probably had more in common with the 14th St. tunnel being there wasn't a lot of other options for dispersion of crowds. The MTA worked on this problem by creating two separate bus lines both for local and express bus bridge to Queens how well it worked that's a story for another day. Another factor was time this happening over a period of less than a year also crossing the Newton Creek is nothing compared to the East River in depth or length. So even if the damage wasn’t as extensive as Montague,Cranberry or the Network Creek just sheer logistics makes it a harder under taking with incredible crush loads. My business partner lives in Williamsburg on Kent sometimes in the morning when I go to Williamsburg to grab coffee with him there’s lines to get onto the platform. Nowadays I work in the field of user experience with software understanding how people think and how they're going to use your product creating personas and archetypes. When I studied engineering there were a lot of parallels between the fields. I think the same principles apply here as well. So I think someone said suicide I could apply that somewhat to rider experience and communication. I took the current (L) schedule and entered it into a statistics program (R Language)  the other day just a basic script based on the current track map If a Manhattan bound left Lormer at the top of the hour. This what it spit back simplified waiting at Bedford.
 
North tube repair.
 
X= Lormer switch
B= Bedford Ave Station
T= Third Ave Switch
 
Manhattan bound  X+B+T = 7mins
Canarsie Bround   T+B+X = 6 mins
 
Manhattan Bound 
02,14,26,38,50
Canarsie Bound    
00,12,24,36,48
 
Now this is probably the best case scenario I'm sure there's 1 or 2 other variables. So this is a train every 12 minutes from what I can see you can’t even short turn any trains from the direction of Manhattan A Canarsie to Myrtle maybe?. How do you solve the issue of dispersing a crowd at Bedford ,Lormer or Graham while communicating theres service altho limited but service. Understanding people there's going to be a multitude of people that are going to feel like they can walk to the subway station at Bedford and just get on. Now times that by a few thousand and you have chaos. Sure after the first few months people get that idea and get with the program. The MTA has a hell of a job in terms of communications and operations. Suicide... ahhh can I substitute that maybe with a quagmire. So I can look at it just from the fact of this being a sheer headache the MTA putting this off for the absolute last moment let's not forget about all the development going on in the area. If I were thinking about renting, buying or even opening a business in this area and I had any inkling that the main mode of transportation would be cut for up to three years I might reconsider not saying this is a factor but hey money talks and transportation is a major selling point in the city always has and always will be. Just my ten cents.
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Please explain why you think it would be "suicide" to keep one tube open to passenger service. Are you implying that the tubes are in dangerous condition? I don't take the self-serving press releases the (MTA) issues too literally but if the tunnels were in that bad shape I'd think they would have been a higher priority post Sandy. I've worked G.O.s early in my work train days where the Joralemon tubes were shut down, separately, for 55 hour stretches albeit on weekends only. Water seepage and ceiling scrapes. I thought that was dangerous but the TA still ran regular service Monday through Friday. If you are thinking like me wouldn't the (L) line tube repairs come before the (R) and certainly before the (G) line work? 

When I said "suicide" I did not mean it literally. I meant that trying to run a service through one tube at a time instead of a complete closure of both (as in the (R) ) would be a BIG mistake. It would drag on longer and because people see that there is a (L) train running, they are all gonna try to pile on the reduced frequency (L) and its going to be a big mess.

 

At the most with one tube open they'd only be able to operate at about 40%. And that's with the switches at their current distance and computer-based train control in effect for switching. At minimum trains would have a 6-7 min wait at Lorimer or 3rd at current speeds with single track operations at Bedford and First Avenue. That's a train in each direction roughly every 12 minutes if I were waiting at Bedford Avenue at rush hour. How do you spread out the crowds and encourage people to use other means? That's utter chaos.

^This is why I called it "suicide"

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Let's also not forget the World Trade Center site. Almost 15 years of back and forth financial negotiations to rebuilding this 16 acre site and what we have today is what I call a cemetery a.k.a "September 11 Memorial" with clueless folks literally taking selfies of themselves on the names of innocent people who lost their lives and my ol'so favorite the over-expensive white porcupine looking structure a.k.a WTC Transportation Hub. Yes, Billions of dollars tossed on that project alone just to make a station hub "pretty like a bird" instead of planning on track capacity and functioning customer use of transportation. Hell, Tower 2 once again is being put on hold, which I'm actually thrilled to here about as far as the stacked box redesign of the building goes.

Don't even get me started on Cuomo's new baby "Empire State Complex"/a.k.a Moynihan Station/a.k.a Penn Station/to quote MTA board member Charles Moerdler a.k.a garbage dump.

 

Supposedly, unlike the gigantic mess that was the WTC Hub, the Penn redesign will be done with private money made from using the air rights to build new office towers, which will be conveniently located a few blocks down from Hudson Yards.

 

Granted, I have no idea how this is supposed to work since I was under the impression all the rights were used by Penn Plaza. But Cuomo likes to ignore questions about how he's going to pay for things like the TZB or the LGA AirTrain.

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When I said "suicide" I did not mean it literally. I meant that trying to run a service through one tube at a time instead of a complete closure of both (as in the (R) ) would be a BIG mistake. It would drag on longer and because people see that there is a (L) train running, they are all gonna try to pile on the reduced frequency (L) and its going to be a big mess.

^This is why I called it "suicide"

Got it, thanks. I was concentrating on the physical river tube damages rather than passengers. After what we've seen in Flint, MI and the President's call for infrastructure repairs since his first term I have little to no faith in anything our elected officials propose. I actually envisioned closing both tubes and replacing them with pre-fabs ala 63rd St if the damage was that extensive. Of course I'd have people complaining about the cost and the inconvenience in that case. My apologies to you and RailRun because I took it in an incorrect way. Carry on.

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I have nothing to contribute to this tangent. I just want to say that out of all the MTA board, Mr. Moerdler is my favorite. He asks the right questions and genuinely cares. We need more like him on the board.

 

He's the reason why I take time to watch some of those MTA board meetings. He doesn't hesitate to speak his mind which I highly respect.

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Not to critizise your suggestion but I do find my self snickering most of the time I read you suggestions (Which belong in the Subway proposal thread) but why create a whole other subway line just to supplement the (M) its pointless to do that

The "Orange (T) " in this case is really the (M) train, just signed in as a different letter because the northern terminal would be different, in this case to 96th Street/2nd Avenue instead of 71st-Continental.  It's done this way to avoid any confusion about northern terminals and also to not overload QB while at the same time providing additional service on Myrtle, Broadway-Brooklyn and 6th Avenue to displaced (L) riders at a time the (M) likely will need more trains anyway.  Late nights and weekends as noted, the "Orange (T) " would replace the current (M) shuttles as noted and also run to 96th/2nd.  Doing it this way also likely cuts down on the number of train sets actually needed to run on the line since I believe 96/2 is a lot closer to 47-50 than 71-Continental is (even if that's only 1-2 sets, that still can make a huge difference right now).

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I read several articles that said that Andrew Inglesby, the MTA employee sent to talk about the L train shutdown, was kicked out of the meeting yesterday. But none of the articles explained how he got kicked out. Did they ask him to leave? Did they shout at him until he decided to leave?

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Today's AM New York article said they did indeed ask Inglesby to leave and stated that he was silent for much of the meeting and gave no indication of how the (MTA) plans to proceed with the shutdown. It's likely that pissed off the meeting organizers who "wanted an answer and wanted it now". Apparently he wasn't there for very long, being asked to leave after about 20 minutes. Felice Kirby of Brooklyn Allied Bars & Restaurants was the one who asked Inglesby to leave. The article said Kirby was polite about it.

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Today's AM New York article said they did indeed ask Inglesby to leave and stated that he was silent for much of the meeting and gave no indication of how the (MTA) plans to proceed with the shutdown. It's likely that pissed off the meeting organizers who "wanted an answer and wanted it now". Apparently he wasn't there for very long, being asked to leave after about 20 minutes. Felice Kirby of Brooklyn Allied Bars & Restaurants was the one who asked Inglesby to leave. The article said Kirby was polite about it.

 

I mean, they wanted a finalised answer that they weren't going to get. Add the fact that this impacts entitled hipster/yuppie central the most, and there was no way this was going to end well.

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Hopefully they'll avoid pandering to the yuppie-hipster douchebag transplants along the (L).  Either way, I'm sure the TA will figure something out.  Of course, whether their final plan will be a success or completely retarded remains to be seen...

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Hopefully they'll avoid pandering to the yuppie-hipster douchebag transplants along the (L).  Either way, I'm sure the TA will figure something out.  Of course, whether their final plan will be a success or completely retarded remains to be seen...

The only reason they pander to the hipsters is cause they absolutely slam crush the (L) trains to very full you can't turn up your nose at high ridership. 

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