Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

And this is why that would not work.  What I would do is have more lines run extended service during the overnight, mostly as locals that serve more frequently traveled stops.  As I would be looking to do it:
 

and run as-is, runs 148th Street-South Ferry station on the  (all lines run local during a 20-minute stretch where there is a 6-7 minute gap on the trunk line).

 and run as-is,  runs with the  to Brooklyn Bridge (set up in the same manner as the west side)

 and  run as-is, runs 168th Street-Lefferts Boulevard (eliminating the late-night Lefferts shuttle) 

  and  remain as they are.

 runs Metropolitan Avenue to 96th Street-2nd Avenue (this also would be on weekends and holidays)

 runs full route (95th Street to 71st-Continental).

Nah. The  to 14 street would be better

the  is fine as is. 

The , eh. I can somewhat agree

KEEP THE f**kING AS IS. I HIGHLY DISAGREE WITH EXTENDING IT LATE NIGHTS

[Around the Horn]

There's no need to run the  all the way to Queens at night. There is an argument however to run it up to 57th/7th from about 11:30PM to 1 AM as ridership on Broadway can be pretty high then.

[Bosco]

6 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

There's no need to run the  all the way to Queens at night. There is an argument however to run it up to 57th/7th from about 11:30PM to 1 AM as ridership on Broadway can be pretty high then.

I could see that being doable, but how would they turn the trains at 57 St?  IMO, it would make more sense to run those few trips to 96 St.

Something that some proposers seem to forget is how much construction takes place on the overnights.  Even if you had redundant services ( to Manhattan for example), trains would be suspended/rerouted/flagged so often that the differences in the scheduled service patterns wouldn't even matter.

[CenSin]

5 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

And this is why that would not work.  What I would do is have more lines run extended service during the overnight, mostly as locals that serve more frequently traveled stops.  As I would be looking to do it:
 

and run as-is, runs 148th Street-South Ferry station on the  (all lines run local during a 20-minute stretch where there is a 6-7 minute gap on the trunk line).

 and run as-is,  runs with the  to Brooklyn Bridge (set up in the same manner as the west side)

 and  run as-is, runs 168th Street-Lefferts Boulevard (eliminating the late-night Lefferts shuttle) 

  and  remain as they are.

 runs Metropolitan Avenue to 96th Street-2nd Avenue (this also would be on weekends and holidays)

 runs full route (95th Street to 71st-Continental).

It seems that there are three kinds of proposers:

1. The fiscal conservative
   Like the MTA, the fiscal conservative cuts corners to save on costs as much as possible (except where politics prohibits it). The bare minimum is usually the chosen option among many choices.
2. The pragmatist
   The pragmatist strikes a balance between extreme minimalism and grand plans with the aid of foresight. The pragmatist would advocates against projects like the Willets Point–LGA AirTrain, but supports projects like a third track for SAS.
3. The idealist
   Anything can be proposed, including plans that cost far more than can be paid for. If there are good reasons for things to be cut back, the idealist does not see those reasons.

[LGA Link N Train]

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

It seems that there are three kinds of proposers:

1. The fiscal conservative
   Like the MTA, the fiscal conservative cuts corners to save on costs as much as possible (except where politics prohibits it). The bare minimum is usually the chosen option among many choices.
2. The pragmatist
   The pragmatist strikes a balance between extreme minimalism and grand plans with the aid of foresight. The pragmatist would advocates against projects like the Willets Point–LGA AirTrain, but supports projects like a third track for SAS.
3. The idealist
   Anything can be proposed, including plans that cost far more than can be paid for. If there are good reasons for things to be cut back, the idealist does not see those reasons.

I agree with this chart. I'd probably fit myself in the pragmaist section

[RR503]

8 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

And this is why that would not work.  What I would do is have more lines run extended service during the overnight, mostly as locals that serve more frequently traveled stops.  As I would be looking to do it:
 

and run as-is, runs 148th Street-South Ferry station on the  (all lines run local during a 20-minute stretch where there is a 6-7 minute gap on the trunk line).

 and run as-is,  runs with the  to Brooklyn Bridge (set up in the same manner as the west side)

 and  run as-is, runs 168th Street-Lefferts Boulevard (eliminating the late-night Lefferts shuttle) 

  and  remain as they are.

 runs Metropolitan Avenue to 96th Street-2nd Avenue (this also would be on weekends and holidays)

 runs full route (95th Street to 71st-Continental).

I say just leave service as is, and add a tph or two to all routes. Yes, transfers may not line up in the same way, and merges may be weird, but given the subway’s total dysfunction during the night, I don’t think those factors will matter much. It’s much more about having that extra frequency to diminish the chances of 30 minute waits. 

19 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

I agree with this chart. I'd probably fit myself in the pragmaist section

Of course you would.  

[Coney Island Av]

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

It seems that there are three kinds of proposers:

1. The fiscal conservative
   Like the MTA, the fiscal conservative cuts corners to save on costs as much as possible (except where politics prohibits it). The bare minimum is usually the chosen option among many choices.
2. The pragmatist
   The pragmatist strikes a balance between extreme minimalism and grand plans with the aid of foresight. The pragmatist would advocates against projects like the Willets Point–LGA AirTrain, but supports projects like a third track for SAS.
3. The idealist
   Anything can be proposed, including plans that cost far more than can be paid for. If there are good reasons for things to be cut back, the idealist does not see those reasons.

I think I'd be a pragmatist because I propose a few cheap extensions (eg. Bronx Crosstown, Hillside, Laurelton, Bypass, Third) but at times I also propose somewhat expensive extensions (eg. South 4th St, 10 Av-Northern, Culver/4 Av to SI, Fulton-Cambria, four-tracked SAS, and so on).  

However, I try to be as close to realistic even with expensive proposals. For example, I propose a four-tracked SAS only south of 63rd as opposed to the full length, but it will still cause a tight fit north of 63rd if we're gonna expand further into the Bronx. But it's not a matter over whether extending X line to Y destination is doable because it's least expensive. It's a matter over whether building this is even worth it despite the cost, whether cheap or expensive.  I'm also opposed to dumb ideas like Cuomo's LGA AirTrain,  to Red Hook,  to NJ, etc. Those types of proposals could be handled with either more superior extensions that would logically be fit as subway, increased bus service, or just letting any commuter railroad (LIRR, NJT) handle it instead. 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Coney Island Av

[CenSin]

11 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

 runs Metropolitan Avenue to 96th Street-2nd Avenue (this also would be on weekends and holidays)

The runs nowhere near the Upper East Side during regular hours. Why would it go there especially during the night? It’s no longer an if it goes there.

[R42N]

12 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

There's no need to run the  all the way to Queens at night. There is an argument however to run it up to 57th/7th from about 11:30PM to 1 AM as ridership on Broadway can be pretty high then.

You could easily increase  service, or push  service an hour later, before you need to extend the  to a different destination for an hour only.  service on the 60th Street tunnel can be fairly packed after midnight going to Astoria, but not nearly enough to warrant service to Queens Blvd. 

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, CenSin said:

The runs nowhere near the Upper East Side during regular hours. Why would it go there especially during the night? It’s no longer an if it goes there.

The other option for extending the would be to have it run to West 4th, with the running local along 6th Avenue as the can use the crossover in the express tunnel to switch ends.  This gives the most of the additional transfers.

Reason I extend the  off-hours to 96th Street is to increase late-night/weekend service on the SAS in arguably the most densely populated area in the entire country.  Most of the 6th Avenue stations are close enough to the Broadway stations (and of course 34th Street is the transfer hub).  

[officiallyliam]

17 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

The other option for extending the would be to have it run to West 4th, with the running local along 6th Avenue as the can use the crossover in the express tunnel to switch ends.  This gives the most of the additional transfers.

There’s no local-to-express crossover between Broadway/Lafayette and W4. 

The  to 96th is happening anyway for the shutdown; but after that, weekend  trains should stay at Essex or go to Chambers. Late nights and weekends, keep it simple and just increase  service.

[Around the Horn]

8 hours ago, R42N said:

You could easily increase  service, or push  service an hour later, before you need to extend the  to a different destination for an hour only.  service on the 60th Street tunnel can be fairly packed after midnight going to Astoria, but not nearly enough to warrant service to Queens Blvd. 

All I'm proposing is restoring trips that used to be in the timetable pre 2010 cuts and adding a few more... I don't think that qualifies as an extension to a different terminal the same way that say an  to 96th Street for an hour would.

[Wallyhorse]

26 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

There’s no local-to-express crossover between Broadway/Lafayette and W4. 

The  to 96th is happening anyway for the shutdown; but after that, weekend  trains should stay at Essex or go to Chambers. Late nights and weekends, keep it simple and just increase  service.

I would make the permanent to 96th-2nd.

There is a local-to-express crossover north of West 4th both ways AND the express crossover north of that, so it can do such crossovers easily.  

[officiallyliam]

52 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would make the permanent to 96th-2nd.

Can you explain why the  should go to 96th Street in place of increased  service?

And don't say because Upper East Side riders need 6th Avenue. It's precisely what 63rd and Lex was designed for.

[LGA Link N Train]

2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

The other option for extending the would be to have it run to West 4th, with the running local along 6th Avenue as the can use the crossover in the express tunnel to switch ends.  This gives the most of the additional transfers.

Reason I extend the  off-hours to 96th Street is to increase late-night/weekend service on the SAS in arguably the most densely populated area in the entire country.  Most of the 6th Avenue stations are close enough to the Broadway stations (and of course 34th Street is the transfer hub).  

Didn't someone already say why this won't work. But late nights, you'd be better off turning trains at Chambers Street

Your Transfers:

 to Chambers transfers  

it's just one less line. but not a big deal

28 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

Can you explain why the  should go to 96th Street in place of increased  service?

And don't say because Upper East Side riders need 6th Avenue. It's precisely what 63rd and Lex was designed for.

Thank You. to 96 Street at Nights/weekends is temporary

9 hours ago, R42N said:

You could easily increase  service, or push  service an hour later, before you need to extend the  to a different destination for an hour only.  service on the 60th Street tunnel can be fairly packed after midnight going to Astoria, but not nearly enough to warrant service to Queens Blvd. 

Or. to 96 Street all times except late nights with the being a Sea Beach Shuttle overnight, from Coney Island to 36 Street-Brooklyn or Whitehall Street.

Astoria Locals. 3  's to 86 street (Brooklyn) and 3 's to Queens Plaza. Maybe you can switch the to local and the  express to keep familiarity.

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

Can you explain why the  should go to 96th Street in place of increased  service?

And don't say because Upper East Side riders need 6th Avenue. It's precisely what 63rd and Lex was designed for.

Because of all the QBL work, 96th St is the only other available terminal that the can end at. (Orginally, before the SAS opened, it was 57th St, but the idea was to risky since trains had to keep switching to reverse and that kept delaying service.)

Basically, the would end at 96th St on weekends and late nights, and end at Forest Hills or 179th St during weekdays.

The running to 96th St still allows riders from the to have the same transfers to the lines they need. Other then for the shutdown, the to 96th St shouldn't be kept. What they should do is send it down to Chambers on Weekends.

[Wallyhorse]

57 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

Can you explain why the  should go to 96th Street in place of increased  service?

And don't say because Upper East Side riders need 6th Avenue. It's precisely what 63rd and Lex was designed for.

That's simply a bonus nights and weekends.  You also have easier transfers at West 4th to the  and  in addition to the and the as well as the  at Broadway-Lafayette, plus the at 34th and an OOS transfer between the and  at 63rd/Lex.  That's why I would have the go to at least West 4th nights and weekends and preferably 96th/2nd.  

[Lawrence St]

Although, I never understood why they didn't extend the down to Bay Parkway during rush hours when they merged the and back in 2010. Or why they didn't send the to Prospect Park when the wasn't running to Brooklyn.

[Lance]

The reroute of the  to 6th Avenue was part of a service cut. The original plan was for the Nassau St to terminate at Chambers St on weekdays, eliminating the extension to Bay Pkwy, and for the to continue its run between 71 Avenue and 2 Avenue. Rather than have two lines terminating so close to each other, it was decided to combine both dead-ending lines into the present  between 71 Avenue and Metropolitan Av. That this became extremely beneficial for Myrtle Ave riders was simply coincidence. If there was no money for the to Bay Pkwy, there definitely wasn't any to send the there.

As for why the shuttle no longer runs when service is cut back to the Brooklyn Bridge, it wasn't popular enough to justify the expense. The majority of those on those shuttles were the railfans and not the people who were actually the intended targets.

[RR503]

10 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

The other option for extending the would be to have it run to West 4th, with the running local along 6th Avenue as the can use the crossover in the express tunnel to switch ends.  This gives the most of the additional transfers.

Reason I extend the  off-hours to 96th Street is to increase late-night/weekend service on the SAS in arguably the most densely populated area in the entire country.  Most of the 6th Avenue stations are close enough to the Broadway stations (and of course 34th Street is the transfer hub).  

I'm honestly surprised that you aren't foaming over the chance to use Nassau. 

What I'd do is just extend the weekend  to Chambers or Broad. Chambers preserves the shortness of the weekend route,and adds zero merges to the already unreliable weekend and . Going all the way to Broad brings you xfers to the on top of those available at Canal/Chambers.    

IMHO either of those are simpler than playing relay/reroute games on the frequently-being-worked-on 6th ave express tracks. As for 96th st, that's just too mergy and too far. The last thing we need is for  all to be reduced to 5tph whenever there's a 6th ave GO. 

5 hours ago, Lance said:

As for why the shuttle no longer runs when service is cut back to the Brooklyn Bridge, it wasn't popular enough to justify the expense. The majority of those on those shuttles were the railfans and not the people who were actually the intended targets.

To be fair, that's because it was terribly advertised. "Take the  instead" just confuses people. If they had the Vignelli style maps with the additional  service highlighted, I'd imagine it'd have done better. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by RR503

[Coney Island Av]

I'll look at the positives and negatives of each proposed weekend  line terminus to see which one really fits the bill.

Essex St

Benefits: 

-Transfer available to , in total ()

-Makes travelling between Myrtle and 6 Av during weekends more convenient. 

-Provides another alternative getting from Ridgewood/Bushwick to Manhattan other than the  

-No delays

Costs:

-Only one additional transfer option

-Adds four additional stops

-Use of the center track at Essex St, similar to Myrtle

-Misses a lot of important transfer station complexes

Chambers St

Benefits:

-More transfers than an extension to Essex St () 

-Additional tail tracks for relaying as opposed to one center track at Essex

-Alternative to the  for getting to Manhattan from Ridgewood

-Hits some major destinations and station complexes

-No delays

Costs:

-Misses one major station (Fulton St)

-Adds seven additional stops to weekend  service

Broad St

Benefits:

-A lot of transfers, even more than Chambers/Essex ()

-Two tail tracks as opposed to one at Essex

-Keeps the weekend route just the right length

-Hits all major destinations and station complexes

-Doesn't interfere with delays

Costs:

-Adds nine additional stops to weekend  service

-Requiring BOTH the  to utilize the tail tracks when fumigating

West 4 St

Benefits:

-Adds a little more transfer options than an extension to Essex ()

-Creates a more convenient transfer point to 6 Av line trains (cross-platform transfer)

Costs:

-Would require the  to utilize the local tracks

-Creates a chokepoint south of the station, in which the  would all have to share tracks

-Adds six additional stops

-New switches would have to be installed to allow the  to fumigate,  to access the express tracks/Manhattan Bridge, as there are no switches currently installed between W 4 and Broadway-Lafayette to allow this 

-Adds a merge with the  (and  in this case)

-Would experience cutbacks or reroutes during G.Os 

-Multiple delays

96 St-2 Av

Benefits:

-Adds a luxurious amount of transfer toppings ()

-Makes going from Ridgewood to Midtown a lot more easier without the

-Hits major station complexes

Costs:

-Has to be designated  to avoid confusion (cough cough Wally) *sarcasm*

-Doesn't follow/parallel the current  route 

-A bit too longer than it needs to be 

- and  could easily substitute instead, given the cross-platform transfer at 63rd 

-Adds 12 additional stops

-Merge with both the  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I think from best to worst, this is how it should be arranged.

Broad St>Chambers St>Essex St>96 St-2 Av>West 4 St

This means that Broad St is the best terminal for weekend  service, as it keeps the route at just the right length, has multiple transfer options, and allows for a more convenient terminus. Sorry for the long post. 

 

 

 

[Jemorie]

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Although, I never understood why they didn't extend the down to Bay Parkway during rush hours when they merged the and back in 2010. Or why they didn't send the to Prospect Park when the wasn't running to Brooklyn.

If you're coming from the Flatbush Branch and want Downtown Brooklyn or Lower Manhattan, remain on the . If you're coming from the New Lots Branch and want Downtown Brooklyn or Lower Manhattan, remain on the . If you're coming from either branch and want direct Staten Island Ferry or City Hall services, switch to the local  at Atlantic. If you're coming from either branch and want direct East Side service in general, switch to the express  via bridge or local  via bridge at Atlantic for the Broadway express or local stops which the Lexington Avenue Line is nearby. If you want direct Broadway-Lafayette Street/Bleecker Street service, switch to the  at Atlantic.

Easy and simple. You don't need that  shuttle. Google Map is quite handy once you get use to it.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Jemorie

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, Coney Island Av said:

I'll look at the positives and negatives of each proposed weekend  line terminus to see which one really fits the bill.

Essex St

Benefits: 

-Transfer available to , in total ()

-Makes travelling between Myrtle and 6 Av during weekends more convenient. 

-Provides another alternative getting from Ridgewood/Bushwick to Manhattan other than the  

-No delays

Costs:

-Only one additional transfer option

-Adds four additional stops

-Use of the center track at Essex St, similar to Myrtle

-Misses a lot of important transfer station complexes

Chambers St

Benefits:

-More transfers than an extension to Essex St () 

-Additional tail tracks for relaying as opposed to one center track at Essex

-Alternative to the  for getting to Manhattan from Ridgewood

-Hits some major destinations and station complexes

-No delays

Costs:

-Misses one major station (Fulton St)

-Adds seven additional stops to weekend  service

Broad St

Benefits:

-A lot of transfers, even more than Chambers/Essex ()

-Two tail tracks as opposed to one at Essex

-Keeps the weekend route just the right length

-Hits all major destinations and station complexes

-Doesn't interfere with delays

Costs:

-Adds nine additional stops to weekend  service

-Requiring BOTH the  to utilize the tail tracks when fumigating

West 4 St

Benefits:

-Adds a little more transfer options than an extension to Essex ()

-Creates a more convenient transfer point to 6 Av line trains (cross-platform transfer)

Costs:

-Would require the  to utilize the local tracks

-Creates a chokepoint south of the station, in which the  would all have to share tracks

-Adds six additional stops

-New switches would have to be installed to allow the  to fumigate,  to access the express tracks/Manhattan Bridge, as there are no switches currently installed between W 4 and Broadway-Lafayette to allow this 

-Adds a merge with the  (and  in this case)

-Would experience cutbacks or reroutes during G.Os 

-Multiple delays

96 St-2 Av

Benefits:

-Adds a luxurious amount of transfer toppings ()

-Makes going from Ridgewood to Midtown a lot more easier without the

-Hits major station complexes

Costs:

-Has to be designated  to avoid confusion (cough cough Wally) *sarcasm*

-Doesn't follow/parallel the current  route 

-A bit too longer than it needs to be 

- and  could easily substitute instead, given the cross-platform transfer at 63rd 

-Adds 12 additional stops

-Merge with both the  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I think from best to worst, this is how it should be arranged.

Broad St>Chambers St>Essex St>96 St-2 Av>West 4 St

This means that Broad St is the best terminal for weekend  service, as it keeps the route at just the right length, has multiple transfer options, and allows for a more convenient terminus. Sorry for the long post. 

 

 

 

I would have dug up one of my old posts, but this says it already. Sometimes the remedy is worst than the malady. Sending the to West 4 Street–Washington Square to terminate would be a no-go. Sending the to 96 Street would require more trains than might be available to maintain frequency.

Perhaps people should be quizzed on the basics before being given permission to post proposals.

• more frequency = more trains = more money
• more frequency = shorter route = same amount of trains = same amount of money
• longer route = more trains = more money
• longer route = less frequency = same amount of trains = same amount of money

[LGA Link N Train]

@Coney Island Av I agree with trains terminating at Broad Street. At the same time,I keep late nights at Essex or Myrtle. Nice way of breaking the proposals down though

[BreeddekalbL]

Brooklyn IRT Service Change

Variable

Rogers Rebuilt

Extensions from Flatbush Down Nostrand and to Kings plaza are being built

and Utica is being built

and goes via nostrand

stays as is (will go down utica)

extended to new lots

whats say you?