Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Wallyhorse]

On 4/17/2018 at 7:27 PM, Coney Island Av said:

West 4 St

Benefits:

-Adds a little more transfer options than an extension to Essex ()

-Creates a more convenient transfer point to 6 Av line trains (cross-platform transfer)

Costs:

-Would require the  to utilize the local tracks

-Creates a chokepoint south of the station, in which the  would all have to share tracks

-Adds six additional stops

-New switches would have to be installed to allow the  to fumigate,  to access the express tracks/Manhattan Bridge, as there are no switches currently installed between W 4 and Broadway-Lafayette to allow this 

-Adds a merge with the  (and  in this case)

-Would experience cutbacks or reroutes during G.Os 

-Multiple delays

96 St-2 Av

Benefits:

-Adds a luxurious amount of transfer toppings ()

-Makes going from Ridgewood to Midtown a lot more easier without the

-Hits major station complexes

Costs:

-Has to be designated  to avoid confusion (cough cough Wally) *sarcasm*

-Doesn't follow/parallel the current  route 

-A bit too longer than it needs to be 

- and  could easily substitute instead, given the cross-platform transfer at 63rd 

-Adds 12 additional stops

-Merge with both the  

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You forget there ARE switches NORTH of Broadway-Lafayette on the northbound side AND north of West 4th on both sides and the express tracks.  We are talking LATE NIGHTS and WEEKENDS for a West 4th terminal for the  when the and  are not running as often.  

The real problem is there is no good place to turn the  north of Essex other than 96th/2nd or 145th/8th without sending it on QB, which many weekends is out due to CBTC work.  This is where if 72nd had been built to three tracks as originally planned, the  could have terminated there.  

[officiallyliam]

1 minute ago, Wallyhorse said:

You forget there ARE switches NORTH of Broadway-Lafayette on the northbound side AND north of West 4th on both sides and the express tracks.  We are talking LATE NIGHTS and WEEKENDS for a West 4th terminal for the  when the and  are not running as often.  

The real problem is there is no good place to turn the  north of Essex other than 96th/2nd or 145th/8th without sending it on QB, which many weekends is out due to CBTC work.  This is where if 72nd had been built to three tracks as originally planned, the  could have terminated there.  

Those switches are restricted to 5 mph. They’re not getting used in regular service, nor should they be.

[CenSin]

2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

You forget there ARE switches NORTH of Broadway-Lafayette on the northbound side AND north of West 4th on both sides and the express tracks.  We are talking LATE NIGHTS and WEEKENDS for a West 4th terminal for the  when the and  are not running as often.  

The real problem is there is no good place to turn the  north of Essex other than 96th/2nd or 145th/8th without sending it on QB, which many weekends is out due to CBTC work.  This is where if 72nd had been built to three tracks as originally planned, the  could have terminated there.  

How is that relevant to the core of the argument? Does the ability to terminate there provide a decisive reason to have trains run to West 4 Street–Washington Square over Chambers Street or Broad Street?

[Caelestor]

Why do we need to extend the ? Essex St is a perfectly fine terminal in my opinion, and the transfer to the  doesn't add that much more travel time. I would rather decrease  headways from 10 to 8 minutes to bring the  in line with the .

[Jemorie]

Wallyhorse, so what if the  and  don’t run very frequently at night and on weekends? Simplicity counts. You’re making a pointless ass extension up to West 4th Street where the  would have to cross from local to express or express to local. This isn’t a game. This is for real. And then have the  run local on 6th Avenue for two stops? And for the to relay north of West 4th Street? Unnecessary wasteful switching between Broadway-Lafayette Street and West 4th Street isn’t worth the time and money spent.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Jemorie

[Wallyhorse]

7 hours ago, Caelestor said:

Why do we need to extend the ? Essex St is a perfectly fine terminal in my opinion, and the transfer to the  doesn't add that much more travel time. I would rather decrease  headways from 10 to 8 minutes to bring the  in line with the .

The idea is to have a much easier transfer to the (D) and (F) at Broadway-Lafayette or West 4th as well as the (4) in late nights and (6) all times at Broadway-Lafayette and the (A) (C) and (E) at West 4th on the upper level.  Those are the key transfers in having the (M) run to West 4 if not further up the line late nights and weekends. It's also why pre-SAS I would have considered sending the (M) to 145 on weekends where it would have had the weekend role the (B) has on CPW during the week.

[officiallyliam]

8 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

The idea is to have a much easier transfer to the (D) and (F) at Broadway-Lafayette or West 4th as well as the (4) in late nights and (6) all times at Broadway-Lafayette and the (A) (C) and (E) at West 4th on the upper level.  Those are the key transfers in having the (M) run to West 4 if not further up the line late nights and weekends. It's also why pre-SAS I would have considered sending the (M) to 145 on weekends where it would have had the weekend role the (B) has on CPW during the week.

Being absorbed in providing the maximum number of transfers possible on a given line, you've lost sight of something very important in service planning: keeping things simple and understandable. 

The normal route of the M is to go uptown after Essex Street; the normal route of the D is to skip 14th and 23rd Streets. This is understandable, it is shown on the map, and it has been the case for a number of years. Your average rider is not going to remember that, eight years ago, the M used to run south down the Nassau line. They're just going to wonder why the M is running in the opposite direction from its normal route. The same would be true if the M went to 145th. Late night and weekend service changes should mirror the daytime routes as much as possible. We shouldn't have two (or three) wildly different subway maps depending on the time of day.

Quite frankly, I see little wrong with Essex being the terminal for the weekend/late-night M route. Since the majority of riders are transferring to go uptown, we should just make weekend F service a little bit less abysmal. The only reason the weekend M is going to start going to 96th is because the most ideal terminals - 57th or Queens Plaza - aren't usable because they'll either delay other service or interfere with track and signal work.

[Lance]

2 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

Being absorbed in providing the maximum number of transfers possible on a given line, you've lost sight of something very important in service planning: keeping things simple and understandable.

This right here. Simplicity has to be one of the most important aspects in any service change or implementation. For the average rider, the NYC subway is one of the most confusing things on Earth. Why make it more complicated?

Another thing one must remember is that everyone cannot get a one-seat ride. Rather than try to connect lines to other specific lines, what should be looked into is the final destinations of the riders. Are Myrtle Ave riders looking for the specifically or are they just heading to midtown? Are those looking for east side service desiring the or will any Lexington Ave service do? As others have mentioned previously, if the plan is to give connections to midtown and eastside service, Chambers St is a much better terminal, one that will not impact other services, than W 4 Street could ever be.

[Wallyhorse]

23 hours ago, Lance said:

This right here. Simplicity has to be one of the most important aspects in any service change or implementation. For the average rider, the NYC subway is one of the most confusing things on Earth. Why make it more complicated?

Another thing one must remember is that everyone cannot get a one-seat ride. Rather than try to connect lines to other specific lines, what should be looked into is the final destinations of the riders. Are Myrtle Ave riders looking for the specifically or are they just heading to midtown? Are those looking for east side service desiring the or will any Lexington Ave service do? As others have mentioned previously, if the plan is to give connections to midtown and eastside service, Chambers St is a much better terminal, one that will not impact other services, than W 4 Street could ever be.

Yes, but I think providing service at all times on 6th Avenue with an additional service is important as well, even if it means a different terminal on weekends.  That's why if West 4th is unavailable, I would have the go to 96th/2nd so those on Broadway-Brooklyn have that service at all times.  I'm sure there is going to be pressure to keep that permanent after the shutdown.

[LGA Link N Train]

11 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

I'm sure there is going to be pressure to keep that permanent after the shutdown.

No there won't 

[Coney Island Av]

13 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Yes, but I think providing service at all times on 6th Avenue with an additional service is important as well, even if it means a different terminal on weekends.  That's why if West 4th is unavailable, I would have the go to 96th/2nd so those on Broadway-Brooklyn have that service at all times.  I'm sure there is going to be pressure to keep that permanent after the shutdown.

So? Except there is already a full-time service serving SAS and 6th- the  and . Duplicating services shouldn't be considered, especially on weekends where ridership isn't a high as during the week. It's the same reason that in addition to the , the  are either truncated or not running. 

You're telling me that you're just extending the  because riders will be too lazy to get their butts off of the  and transfer? @Lance already clarified that we can't ALWAYS have a one-seat ride to wherever FULL-TIME. 

And 96 St-2 Av will require TWO MERGES. One with the  at Broadway-Lafayette, and another with the  at Lex-63rd. It will still impact other services, as opposed to Broad where there is little impact/delays. You're making the  zig-zag for no valid reason when the whole purpose of a weekend  extension is to: 

PROVIDE TRANSFERS. 

 

 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Yes, but I think providing service at all times on 6th Avenue with an additional service is important as well, even if it means a different terminal on weekends.  That's why if West 4th is unavailable, I would have the go to 96th/2nd so those on Broadway-Brooklyn have that service at all times.  I'm sure there is going to be pressure to keep that permanent after the shutdown.

This is not Uber. This is not Lyft. This is not a personal rapid transit (PRT) system. When will you get that?

Edited April 21, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[RR503]

8 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Yes, but I think providing service at all times on 6th Avenue with an additional service is important as well, even if it means a different terminal on weekends.  That's why if West 4th is unavailable, I would have the go to 96th/2nd so those on Broadway-Brooklyn have that service at all times.  I'm sure there is going to be pressure to keep that permanent after the shutdown.

Just make both the D and F run every 8 mins like they did before 2010, and send the M to Chambers.  That keeps 6 to 15tph, keeps the D and Fs merges to a minimum, and allows for more frequency on the M. 

[RR503]

double post plz delete

Edited April 21, 2018 by RR503

[Jemorie]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

Just make both the D and F run every 8 mins like they did before 2010

I agree because the current Saturday  and  already run every 7-8 minutes (0:00, 0:07, 0:15, 0:22, 0:30, 0:37, 0:45, 0:52 etc), so the  and  can do the same thing as well. This time, all weekend, and not just on Saturday on all these four lettered lines. Two extra roundtrips an hour and you're good.

[GreatOne2k]

MTA could try running the  (to 14 St , Chambers Street, or South Ferry), the  (to 42 St, Brooklyn Bridge, or Bowling Green), the   (to Lefferts Boulevard),  and  (to 57 St or 71 Av)  Friday-Saturday late nights.  The , , , and  will be the late night expresses those 2 nights a week. The  Lefferts shuttle will be replaced by the  for those two nights. Every Manhattan trunk will have one express on Friday and Saturday nights (currently every Manhattan trunk has a weekend late night express except the 8th Avenue and Broadway lines).

The on Sunday-Thursday late nights should be extended to 149 St Grand Concourse. The  on Sunday-Thursday late nights could possibly be extended to Chambers Street (some late evening s to this now) . The weekend  should be extended to Chambers Street after the  reopens in Manhattan.

The additional weekend late night service will run from Friday night 11:00PM to 8:00AM Sunday Morning (no more and  shuttles running until after 7-8am Sunday mornings)

This is a middle ground between doing nothing and running these service 7 nights a week, it covers the two busiest nights. It would require permanently having a separate Sunday schedule, Monday-Thursday schedule,  Friday schedule, and a Saturday schedule.4

MTA currently has a separate Sunday schedule, Monday schedule (until 5am), Tuesday-Thursday schedule, Friday schedule (after 10pm on the , 10:30pm on the , and 11:00pm on the ), and a Saturday schedule on the , and trains. The complete Monday and Friday schedules are only shown in real time and not on the timetables.

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by GreatOne2k

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

4 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

MTA could try running the  (to 14 St , Chambers Street, or South Ferry), the  (to 42 St, Brooklyn Bridge, or Bowling Green), the   (to Lefferts Boulevard),  and  (to 57 St or 71 Av)  Friday-Saturday late nights.  The , , , and  will be the late night expresses those 2 nights a week. The  Lefferts shuttle will be replaced by the  for those two nights. Every Manhattan trunk will have one express on Friday and Saturday nights (currently every Manhattan trunk has a weekend late night express except the 8th Avenue and Broadway lines).

The on Sunday-Thursday late nights should be extended to 149 St Grand Concourse. The  on Sunday-Thursday late nights could possibly be extended to Chambers Street (some late evening s to this now) . The weekend  should be extended to Chambers Street after the  reopens in Manhattan.

The additional weekend late night service will run from Friday night 11:00PM to 8:00AM Sunday Morning (no more and  shuttles running until after 7-8am Sunday mornings)

This is a middle ground between doing nothing and running these service 7 nights a week, it covers the two busiest nights. It would require permanently having a separate Sunday schedule, Monday-Thursday schedule,  Friday schedule, and a Saturday schedule.4

MTA currently has a separate Sunday schedule, Monday schedule (until 5am), Tuesday-Thursday schedule, Friday schedule (after 10pm on the , 10:30pm on the , and 11:00pm on the ), and a Saturday schedule on the , and trains. The complete Monday and Friday schedules are only shown in real time and not on the timetables.

 

1.) The and adequately cover the 7th Avenue Line south of Times Square–42nd Street to justify extending the  to either 14th Street, Chambers Street, or South Ferry.

2.) Extending the  south of East 180th Street to either Grand Central–42nd Street, Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall, or Bowling Green would be a waste of manpower, as the Dyre Avenue Line is nearly deserted late at night.

3.) Many individuals have proposed sending the  to Ozone Park–Lefferts Boulevard, but it wouldn't be effective unless the current headways on the  were reduced, since passengers nearly always dart for the next at the closest express station . Also, don't forget that the doesn't operate overnight, and even if it did, all that you would accomplish by doing that is currently taken care of by the Liberty Avenue Shuttle.

4.) With the exception of the Myrtle–Wyckoff Avenues Station, the Myrtle Avenue Line isn't overly bustling with activity to warrant having the go the distance to Chambers Street overnight on weekdays. Maybe having the serve all stations between Myrtle Avenue–Broadway and Middle Village–Metropolitan Avenue during late night hours would be a reasonable alternative.

5.) Have you seen the horror show on the Queens Boulevard Line overnight and on weekends? The would incur so much lost time due to speed restrictions caused by the presence of Track Workers that it would defeat the purpose of its existence overnight on weekdays and weekends all together. My hunch is that putting the on Broadway to 57th Street–7th Avenue would interfere with the overnight spacing of and service.

Edited April 22, 2018 by AlgorithmOfTruth

[Wallyhorse]

13 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

This is not Uber. This is not Lyft. This is not a personal rapid transit (PRT) system. When will you get that?

As Willamsburg and Broadway-Brooklyn continue to get built up, I don't think you can continue to get away with the only to Essex, especially after a year of the running to 96th-2nd on weekends.  That's why I look to have it go to a terminal further north, and even possibly once CBTC is finished making the a 24/7 line to 71-Continental.  

[LGA Link N Train]

9 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

As Willamsburg and Broadway-Brooklyn continue to get built up, I don't think you can continue to get away with the only to Essex, especially after a year of the running to 96th-2nd on weekends.  That's why I look to have it go to a terminal further north, and even possibly once CBTC is finished making the a 24/7 line to 71-Continental.  

If we were to DE interline the whole system before SAS phase 3 is complete then sure. Otherwise I wouldn't really say so unless the ridership warrants it. Besides, Delancey Essex can handle the crowds

[T to Dyre Avenue]

10 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

As Willamsburg and Broadway-Brooklyn continue to get built up, I don't think you can continue to get away with the only to Essex, especially after a year of the running to 96th-2nd on weekends.  That's why I look to have it go to a terminal further north, and even possibly once CBTC is finished making the a 24/7 line to 71-Continental.  

Get back to me at least a year after CBTC on Queens Blvd is in operation before we talk about running the  to 71-Continental 24/7. If Williamsburg continues to get built up during/after the shutdown, then focus on running more frequent  service, because it’s the faster route into Manhattan, so I’m inclined to think that will be where much of the new development goes.

And if 96th-2nd actually needs additional off-peak service after the shutdown, then send the  there (via Broadway Express, of course) and run the  on weekends/late nights, because Transit isn’t running Uber- or Lyft-on-steroids or a giant PRT system here. 

Edited April 22, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Caelestor]

20 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

1.) The and adequately cover the 7th Avenue Line south of Times Square–42nd Street to justify extending the  to either 14th Street, Chambers Street, or South Ferry.

2.) Extending the  south of East 180th Street to either Grand Central–42nd Street, Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall, or Bowling Green would be a waste of manpower, as the Dyre Avenue Line is nearly deserted late at night.

3.) Many individuals have proposed sending the  to Ozone Park–Lefferts Boulevard, but it wouldn't be effective unless the current headways on the  were reduced, since passengers nearly always dart for the next at the closest express station . Also, don't forget that the doesn't operate overnight, and even if it did, all that you would accomplish by doing that is currently taken care of by the Liberty Avenue Shuttle.

4.) With the exception of the Myrtle–Wyckoff Avenues Station, the Myrtle Avenue Line isn't overly bustling with activity to warrant having the go the distance to Chambers Street overnight on weekdays. Maybe having the serve all stations between Myrtle Avenue–Broadway and Middle Village–Metropolitan Avenue during late night hours would be a reasonable alternative.

5.) Have you seen the horror show on the Queens Boulevard Line overnight and on weekends? The would incur so much lost time due to speed restrictions caused by the presence of Track Workers that it would defeat the purpose of its existence overnight on weekdays and weekends all together. My hunch is that putting the on Broadway to 57th Street–7th Avenue would interfere with the overnight spacing of and service.

1.) To be fair, the  is currently running full-time to 14 St on the weekends. I think having it serve the busy 34 St and 14 St corridors, plus the  transfer full-time, would be a nice QoL improvement. It will only be an additional train set + crew, which is less than the equipment needed to extend the  to Whitehall St full-time.

2.) Have to agree with you on this one. Unfortunately, I don't think the lower WPR justifies 10 minute headways at night.

3.) Euclid Ave is the Forest Hills of the Fulton St line. Agree there is no need to extend any local service east of the terminal.

4.) The  really should be running to Essex St and into Manhattan full-time - see the  to Whitehall St.

5.) I'd rather run the  local at nights and give all stops at QBL 10 minute headways, than extend the . Broadway already has the  and  providing 10 minute headways.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Caelestor

[Wallyhorse]

19 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

If we were to DE interline the whole system before SAS phase 3 is complete then sure. Otherwise I wouldn't really say so unless the ridership warrants it. Besides, Delancey Essex can handle the crowds

The point is to give Broadway-Brooklyn riders 6th Avenue service at all times.  Since there really is no other place to turn such (if not going to 71/Continental), 96th/2nd takes care of that with the  and the added benefit for those on the UES of additional service on the SAS portion to 63rd with most of the stops on 6th Avenue no more than a block from the Broadway stations. 

[P3F]

Which line is a better candidate for a weekday extension to Brooklyn? The or the ?

[RR503]

9 hours ago, Caelestor said:

4.) The  really should be running to Essex St and into Manhattan full-time - see the  to Whitehall St.

Why Essex? That gives you one more xfer. When not going to FHills, Chambers or Broad really is the move — so much connectivity for a short extension. 

@P3F I’d argue the W. It’s a short route anyways, and doing so would not add any new merges to the R. You could also couple it’s extension with deinterlining Broadway. I’d say just leave the Nassau Loop be. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by RR503

[Lance]

Also, sending the to Brooklyn screws with the rush-hour skip-stop service. That is unless you extend those runs down there as well.