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EE Broadway Local

Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Subway fanatic said:

1. Why should we operate the (N) to 96 St to accommodate Brooklyn (W)?

2. There is no point in running a empty (C) express. What about the riders along 8 Av from Canal St to 50 St? The (E) can't do it alone.

3.(K) is never going to operate in Queens. It has never went past WTC when it existed.

 

1. You’ve got it backwards. We should operate the (W) to Bay Ridge to accommodate the (N) to 96th. The (W) would run 24/7 and have its service doubled to make up for the loss of the (N) in Queens. Delays at 34th Street would be reduced significantly because the (N) would no longer have to switch from the express to the local there.

2. We don’t have to run the (C) express. The (C) can run local on CPW/8th Ave as it currently does, and it can terminate at WTC alongside the (E). The (K) can run express on 8th Ave and local on Fulton St to/from Euclid, replacing the (C) in Brooklyn and eliminating the Canal St merge between the (A) and (C)

3. No real reason why the (K) can’t operate in Queens. The first one (1968-76) did until 1973 (although it was known as the :KK: until ‘73).

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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1 hour ago, Lance said:

If anything, the MTA should've built that connection between Flushing and Queens Blvd themselves instead of the one that was built between Flushing and the Crosstown lines.

I just remembered the physical connection that was built was done so primarily through private funds from Citigroup over their property with only a minor investment by the MTA. If we were to ever get a more efficient transfer there, it would likely have to be built by the MTA.

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2 hours ago, RR503 said:

There are many. I see three schools of thought:

- Deinterline 34 St and leave it (so (N) to 96, more (W)

- Deinterline 34 St, the 11th St Cut, and (potentially) 36 St (so (N) via 63 to Queens Boulevard, either via local to Forest Hills or via express to Jamaica Center with (E) via local; (R) to Astoria)

- Deinterline it all ((N)(Q) 96, (R)(W) Astoria, (E)(K) via 8th/53/QB local, (F)(M) via 6th/63/QB express) 

First proposal should be implemented because in practice Broadway gains ~7 tph plus reduced train delays along the entire corridor. Plus it's a prerequisite to the other plans here.

Second proposal is not a great long-term solution because I'm not convinced that the (Q) can handle SAS by itself at its current frequencies.

Third proposal gives 8 Ave the Broadway (N) treatment and fully maxes out system capacity, but given that the (M) can only run 8 car trains at the moment, a CPW-style interlining with (E)(F) express and (K)(M) local might be more feasible.

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

2. We don’t have to run the (C) express. The (C) can run local on CPW/8th Ave as it currently does, and it can terminate at WTC alongside the (E). The (K) can run express on 8th Ave and local on Fulton St to/from Euclid, replacing the (C) in Brooklyn and eliminating the Canal St merge between the (A) and (C)

3. No real reason why the (K) can’t operate in Queens. The first one (1968-76) did until 1973 (although it was known as the :KK: until ‘73).

Yep, the idea is that the Canal St merge kills capacity just like the 34 St merge on Broadway and both need to be retired. In order to preserve 8 Ave local service, especially at 50 St, the Fulton local should become a QBL train. However, the MTA has to not only add an additional service, but both the 53 St / 6 Ave and 59 St / Queens Plaza connections have to be retired so that might be more challenging to get public approval.

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Posted (edited)

(N)(W) could switch roles for Example:

(N) could operate fully Local all times between Coney Island and Ditmars Blvd. 

(W) could operate Express Via 4 Av-Brooklyn, Bypass DeKalb Av, crossover Manhattan Bridge, Broadway-Manhattan Exp. 

Run between 86 St/Sea Beach and terminate at 96 St/2 Av with (Q)

(W) operate weekdays only from 5:30 am until 9:30pm. 

(Q)(W) Broadway Exp straight between Canal and 57 St and terminate at 96 St.

(N)(R) provide all Local service in between 59 St/4 Av and 57 St/7 av no switching tracks between exp & loc on the Broadway Line.

(R) service in between 95 St and Forest Hills 71 Av remains the same.

Edited by bwwnyc123

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

(N)(W) could switch roles for Example:

(N) could operate fully Local all times between Coney Island and Ditmars Blvd. 

(W) could operate Express Via 4 Av-Brooklyn, Bypass DeKalb Av, crossover Manhattan Bridge, Broadway-Manhattan Exp. 

Run between 86 St/Sea Beach and terminate at 96 St/2 Av with (Q)

I don't understand this. All you're doing is calling the (W) the (N) but extending it to 86 St and calling the (N) the (W)  but rerouting it to 2 Av. It's the same thing as deinterlining (N)(Q)(R)(W) but also with an extra merge at 59 St.

 

Edited by Bay Ridge Express

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, bwwnyc123 said:

(N)(W) could switch roles for Example:

(N) could operate fully Local all times between Coney Island and Ditmars Blvd. 

(W) could operate Express Via 4 Av-Brooklyn, Bypass DeKalb Av, crossover Manhattan Bridge, Broadway-Manhattan Exp. 

Run between 86 St/Sea Beach and terminate at 96 St/2 Av with (Q)

(W) operate weekdays only from 5:30 am until 9:30pm. 

(Q)(W) Broadway Exp straight between Canal and 57 St and terminate at 96 St.

(N)(R) provide all Local service in between 59 St/4 Av and 57 St/7 av no switching tracks between exp & loc on the Broadway Line.

(R) service in between 95 St and Forest Hills 71 Av remains the same.

Why?

So we can continue to have people refer to the Broadway/4th Ave Line as “the (N)(R) line,” like so many non-native New Yorkers started doing in the 1990s? (Some people still call it that to this day, even though the (Q) has operated on Broadway full time continuously since 2001 and the (W) has run there from 2001-10 and from 2016 to this day.) 

So we can decimate evening/weekend Sea Beach ridership by rerouting the (N) via the Montague tunnel and risk riders crowding the largely nearby (D) line? Not to mention delay the (N) if a (W) is going out of service at 86th St?

So we can subject the (R) to the same QBL drama it currently has to deal with day in and day out? The very same current (R) service that people in all three of its boroughs have been griping about for years and that Bay Ridge area pols are actively trying to address?

And by making the (N) fully local, you’d be subjecting the (R) to yet another merge at 59th Street, Brooklyn.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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4 hours ago, bwwnyc123 said:

(N)(W) could switch roles for Example:

(N) could operate fully Local all times between Coney Island and Ditmars Blvd. 

(W) could operate Express Via 4 Av-Brooklyn, Bypass DeKalb Av, crossover Manhattan Bridge, Broadway-Manhattan Exp. 

Run between 86 St/Sea Beach and terminate at 96 St/2 Av with (Q)

(W) operate weekdays only from 5:30 am until 9:30pm. 

(Q)(W) Broadway Exp straight between Canal and 57 St and terminate at 96 St.

(N)(R) provide all Local service in between 59 St/4 Av and 57 St/7 av no switching tracks between exp & loc on the Broadway Line.

(R) service in between 95 St and Forest Hills 71 Av remains the same.

Can someone please explain this obsession people have with keeping the (N) designation on Astoria no matter what?

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1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Why?

So we can continue to have people refer to the Broadway/4th Ave Line as “the (N)(R) line,” like so many non-native New Yorkers started doing in the 1990s? (Some people still call it that to this day, even though the (Q) has operated on Broadway full time continuously since 2001 and the (W) has run there from 2001-10 and from 2016 to this day.) 

So we can decimate evening/weekend Sea Beach ridership by rerouting the (N) via the Montague tunnel and risk riders crowding the largely nearby (D) line? Not to mention delay the (N) if a (W) is going out of service at 86th St?

So we can subject the (R) to the same QBL drama it currently has to deal with day in and day out? The very same current (R) service that people in all three of its boroughs have been griping about for years and that Bay Ridge area pols are actively trying to address?

And by making the (N) fully local, you’d be subjecting the (R) to yet another merge at 59th Street, Brooklyn.

First of all the current (N)(R) already does merge and both operate Local from 59 St to 36 St in Brooklyn, and merge in Manhattan and between 34 St and 42 St and merge inside of 60th St tunnel.

By making a straight path and no merging in between 59 St(Brooklyn) and 57 St(Manhattan). (N)(R) stays Local and (W) would stay Exp and merge with (D) at 36 St and (Q) near the bridge. In Manhattan (Q)(W) Express straight path between Canal St and 57 St, and then both terminate at 96 St/2 Av.

 

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58 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Can someone please explain this obsession people have with keeping the (N) designation on Astoria no matter what?

Just like the (M) designation, it mostly has to do with riders being more comfortable with the (N) designation, since the (N) has been around longer than the (W) (the (W) was introduced in 2001, while the (N)(Q) and (R) all go back decades). In fact, the old proposed Astoria Line extension to LaGuardia Airport was called the (N) train extension, even though another line was running there.

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1 hour ago, bwwnyc123 said:

First of all the current (N)(R) already does merge and both operate Local from 59 St to 36 St in Brooklyn, and merge in Manhattan and between 34 St and 42 St and merge inside of 60th St tunnel.

By making a straight path and no merging in between 59 St(Brooklyn) and 57 St(Manhattan). (N)(R) stays Local and (W) would stay Exp and merge with (D) at 36 St and (Q) near the bridge. In Manhattan (Q)(W) Express straight path between Canal St and 57 St, and then both terminate at 96 St/2 Av.

The (N)(R) merge in Brooklyn is because of a long term GO taking out the express tracks; the one in Manhattan is because system service planning is woefully out of touch with operational and capacital reality. Neither are things to preserve. 

If you really think people are going to hate on the (W), cool. Swap the (N) and (W) designations. 

For whatever it’s worth, though, this idea does raise an important question: how do we deal with weekends without deinterlining Queens Boulevard? All 4 trains can’t run 24/7, so who gets the axe? Does Sea Beach get local service via tunnel weekends? Do (W) trains run via Bridge to Coney Island weekends? Do we cut the (R)

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23 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Just like the (M) designation, it mostly has to do with riders being more comfortable with the (N) designation, since the (N) has been around longer than the (W) (the (W) was introduced in 2001, while the (N)(Q) and (R) all go back decades). In fact, the old proposed Astoria Line extension to LaGuardia Airport was called the (N) train extension, even though another line was running there.

That's not it.

The problem is that we have all of these proposals to try to deinterline everything and reduce delays (and/or increase service due to a reduction in scheduled merges), but the people pushing for such are trying to act as if there are no low bars that any such proposal would slam into.

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6 minutes ago, RR503 said:

For whatever it’s worth, though, this idea does raise an important question: how do we deal with weekends without deinterlining Queens Boulevard? All 4 trains can’t run 24/7, so who gets the axe? Does Sea Beach get local service via tunnel weekends? Do (W) trains run via Bridge to Coney Island weekends? Do we cut the (R)

Assuming Broadway is still connected to the QBL, the line has three northern branches in SAS, Astoria, and QBL and three southern branches in Brighton, Sea Beach, and Bay Ridge. So the current weekend service plan is the optimal one.

If I was in charge of the real-life Department of Subways, the (N) would still run to 96 St. Instead, reroute the (R) to Astoria due to QBL CBTC and give the (E)(F) reasonable 8-minute headways. The (M) could terminate at 57 St if 96 St can't handle 3 services, then send it back to Forest Hills once capacity becomes available. 

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

Can someone please explain this obsession people have with keeping the (N) designation on Astoria no matter what?

I am uncertain but I would definitely keep the (N) designation on Sea Beach where it's run for over 50 years. Astoria and Bay Ridge both have the letter (R) and the (W) is going to be retired once the (R) runs 15 tph along the entire local corridor.

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2 minutes ago, Caelestor said:

Assuming Broadway is still connected to the QBL, the line has three northern branches in SAS, Astoria, and QBL and three southern branches in Brighton, Sea Beach, and Bay Ridge. So the current weekend service plan is the optimal one.

That’s sorta ugly. 2 of the Brooklyn branches are (on weekdays) attached to the Manhattan Bridge/express, while 2 of the Queens branches feed 60th/local. So we have deinterlining on weekdays and interlining on weekends with quite the switcharoo in northern (or southern, depending on how you do it) destinations. Doable, but gah! 

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52 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Just like the (M) designation, it mostly has to do with riders being more comfortable with the (N) designation, since the (N) has been around longer than the (W) (the (W) was introduced in 2001, while the (N)(Q) and (R) all go back decades)

But by that same logic, keeping the (N) on Sea Beach would take precedent since it's been there since it's inception.

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6 minutes ago, RR503 said:

That’s sorta ugly. 2 of the Brooklyn branches are (on weekdays) attached to the Manhattan Bridge/express, while 2 of the Queens branches feed 60th/local. So we have deinterlining on weekdays and interlining on weekends with quite the switcharoo in northern (or southern, depending on how you do it) destinations. Doable, but gah! 

The real issue is that the MTA can run 50+ tph on weekdays on the busiest trunk lines but there's a hard cap of 20 on weekends. If 30 was the upper limit, every service could run on the weekends and the subway wouldn't be losing as much ridership to the rideshare companies.

Fortunately, this will be a moot point once the (R) is permanently taken off QBL.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I don't understand this. All you're doing is calling the (W) the (N) but extending it to 86 St and calling the (N) the (W)  but rerouting it to 2 Av. It's the same thing as deinterlining (N)(Q)(R)(W) but also with an extra merge at 59 St.

 

That's why I said (N)(W) to switch roles. Plus (N)(Q)(R)(W) currently does interline through out the day and they merge with each other. I was trying to create a straight path and they would not have to merge in between 36 St(Brooklyn) and 57 St(Manhattan). (D)(W) Express between 36 St and Atlantic Ave and Manhattan Bridge. (N)  (R) stays on Local tracks the whole way, (W) stays on Express tracks in Brooklyn and in Manhattan with the (Q) .

(W) remains as a Weekday only supplement from 5:30 AM until 9:30 pm or 10:00 pm. Or have both (N)(W) run interlined to and from Coney Island. Also (Q)(W) could run interlined to and from 96 St/2 Av.

Edited by bwwnyc123

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3 hours ago, bwwnyc123 said:

That's why I said (N)(W) to switch roles. Plus (N)(Q)(R)(W) currently does interline through out the day and they merge with each other. I was trying to create a straight path and they would not have to merge in between 36 St(Brooklyn) and 57 St(Manhattan). (D)(W) Express between 36 St and Atlantic Ave and Manhattan Bridge. (N)  (R) stays on Local tracks the whole way, (W) stays on Express tracks in Brooklyn and in Manhattan with the (Q) .

(W) remains as a Weekday only supplement from 5:30 AM until 9:30 pm or 10:00 pm. Or have both (N)(W) run interlined to and from Coney Island. Also (Q)(W) could run interlined to and from 96 St/2 Av.

I get that. Anyway, why are you proposing extending all (W)s to 86/Coney?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Caelestor said:

The real issue is that the MTA can run 50+ tph on weekdays on the busiest trunk lines but there's a hard cap of 20 on weekends. If 30 was the upper limit, every service could run on the weekends and the subway wouldn't be losing as much ridership to the rideshare companies.

Fortunately, this will be a moot point once the (R) is permanently taken off QBL.

The switch between interlining and deinterlining is pretty unusual, at least for most of these plans as it does cause confusion to have terminals switch on a large scale, biweekly basis. Running all services over the weekends is also a bit extra, especially if ridership losses serve as it's only justification. 

Edited by NoHacksJustKhaks

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I get that. Anyway, why are you proposing extending all (W)s to 86/Coney?

(W) would run Exp and (N) Loc in Brooklyn and Manhattan. (W) being fully extended for passengers needing Exp and interlines with (N) at Coney Island. Meanwhile at 96 St/2 Av (W) interlines with (Q) .  Like killing two birds with one stone. Since (W) would remain weekday only supplement. (N) All Times including Weekends in between Coney Island and Ditmars Blvd operates all Local only.

Edited by bwwnyc123

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6 hours ago, bwwnyc123 said:

That's why I said (N)(W) to switch roles. Plus (N)(Q)(R)(W) currently does interline through out the day and they merge with each other. I was trying to create a straight path and they would not have to merge in between 36 St(Brooklyn) and 57 St(Manhattan). (D)(W) Express between 36 St and Atlantic Ave and Manhattan Bridge. (N)  (R) stays on Local tracks the whole way, (W) stays on Express tracks in Brooklyn and in Manhattan with the (Q) .

(W) remains as a Weekday only supplement from 5:30 AM until 9:30 pm or 10:00 pm. Or have both (N)(W) run interlined to and from Coney Island. Also (Q)(W) could run interlined to and from 96 St/2 Av.

It's really hard to not make a Broadway proposal without deinterlining the entire B division, but here goes...

Broadway Express

(N) Coney Island via Sea Beach to 96 St

(Q) Coney Island via Brighton to 96 St

Broadway Local 

(R) 95 St to Forest Hills

(W) 95 St or Whitehall St to Astoria 

under this plan the only merges would be 36th on the (D)(N), Dekalb on the (D)(N)(Q) and Queens on the (R)(W) 

 

I'm not even going to touch weekends cause theres no way to do it without it being a gigantic clusterf**k and that should be a big red flag telling you to not attempt it at all.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I'm not even going to touch weekends cause theres no way to do it without it being a gigantic clusterf**k and that should be a big red flag telling you to not attempt it at all.

Not really. If you swap the Roles of the (R) and (W), then weekends shouldn’t be an issue. Under that proposal. 

(N) - Coney Island to 96th via Sea Beach

(Q) - Coney Island to 96th via Brighton 

(R) - Astoria to 95th (Short turn a few trains at Whitehall on weekdays) 

(M) - MetroPolitan to Forest Hills full time 

(E) - Now QB Local on Weekends. 

(W) - Weekdays - Forest Hills to Whitehall Or 95th. 

The only catch is that you Deinterline Queens Boulevard on the Weekends. 

Edited by LaGuardia Link N Tra

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6 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Not really. If you swap the Roles of the (R) and (W), then weekends shouldn’t be an issue. Under that proposal. 

(N) - Coney Island to 96th via Sea Beach

(Q) - Coney Island to 96th via Brighton 

(R) - Astoria to 95th (Short turn a few trains at Whitehall on weekdays) 

(M) - MetroPolitan to Forest Hills full time 

(E) - Now QB Local on Weekends. 

(W) - Weekdays - Forest Hills to Whitehall Or 95th. 

The only catch is that you Deinterline Queens Boulevard on the Weekends. 

Why make the (E) local on the weekends? It makes more sense to just have the (W) run on weekends instead (not that I would do that). 

Other than that, this plan is fine. While it is a bare minimum in that it only kills the 34th merge and still leaves Astoria underserved, it’s still better than the delays in of today.

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1 hour ago, bwwnyc123 said:

(W) would run Exp and (N) Loc in Brooklyn and Manhattan. (W) being fully extended for passengers needing Exp and interlines with (N) at Coney Island. Meanwhile at 96 St/2 Av (W) interlines with (Q) .  Like killing two birds with one stone. Since (W) would remain weekday only supplement. (N) All Times including Weekends in between Coney Island and Ditmars Blvd operates all Local only.

Actually, let me ask a different question: why extend the (N) to Coney Island/86? Since it will just run local? Why create an extra merge at 59 when you can either terminate it at Whitehall or 95?

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29 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

The only catch is that you Deinterline Queens Boulevard on the Weekends. 

Exactly my point...

If you try to isolate changes to just Broadway you're forced to either deinterline on weekends and interline on weekdays or interline on weekends and deinterline on weekdays rather than being able to deinterline full time.

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1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Not really. If you swap the Roles of the (R) and (W), then weekends shouldn’t be an issue. Under that proposal. 

(N) - Coney Island to 96th via Sea Beach

(Q) - Coney Island to 96th via Brighton 

(R) - Astoria to 95th (Short turn a few trains at Whitehall on weekdays) 

(M) - MetroPolitan to Forest Hills full time 

(E) - Now QB Local on Weekends. 

(W) - Weekdays - Forest Hills to Whitehall Or 95th. 

The only catch is that you Deinterline Queens Boulevard on the Weekends. 

This seems like a perfectly good plan to me. I’d be fine with it as an alternative to completely splitting the (R) into a Forest Hills-Whitehall service and an Essex-Bay Ridge service. Just keep the (E) express on weekends. 

48 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Why make the (E) local on the weekends? It makes more sense to just have the (W) run on weekends instead (not that I would do that). 

Other than that, this plan is fine. While it is a bare minimum in that it only kills the 34th merge and still leaves Astoria underserved, it’s still better than the delays in of today.

How much (R) service would be needed for Astoria to not be underserved?

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