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EE Broadway Local

Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

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3 hours ago, RR503 said:

Interlining 125 Street is a non-starter. You would lose a massive amount of capacity and worsen service variability up and down Lex. There’s a reason it has never been done, even in the Good Old Days.

In this case, however, swapping the (5) and (6) in the Bronx does make sense because that would actually allow for partial de-interlining those lines at 125 with the (5) having a straight shot and NOT having to curve north of the station while the (6) would only have to do a merge with the (4).  I see where this could work. 

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58 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

In this case, however, swapping the (5) and (6) in the Bronx does make sense because that would actually allow for partial de-interlining those lines at 125 with the (5) having a straight shot and NOT having to curve north of the station while the (6) would only have to do a merge with the (4).  I see where this could work. 

I'm confused. The suggestion is replace 20ish tph of (6) on Pelham with 13 tph of (5) and then reduce (6) service to ~15tph so it can fit on the same track as the (4) going up to 149? Forget the (4)(6) merge -- that's a massive direct hit to (6) capacity. SAS took some loads off the (6), but the line is sure as hell still crowded. 

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58 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I'm confused. The suggestion is replace 20ish tph of (6) on Pelham with 13 tph of (5) and then reduce (6) service to ~15tph so it can fit on the same track as the (4) going up to 149? Forget the (4)(6) merge -- that's a massive direct hit to (6) capacity. SAS took some loads off the (6), but the line is sure as hell still crowded. 

Oh okay.  I was looking at it strictly from de-interlining point at 125 given the quirky track setup there. 

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11 hours ago, RR503 said:

I'm confused. The suggestion is replace 20ish tph of (6) on Pelham with 13 tph of (5) and then reduce (6) service to ~15tph so it can fit on the same track as the (4) going up to 149? Forget the (4)(6) merge -- that's a massive direct hit to (6) capacity. SAS took some loads off the (6), but the line is sure as hell still crowded. 

Based on the comments here so far, I'm thinking I might update the proposal map with these routes:

(4) Pelham Bay to New Lots

  • Short turns at Parkchester when <4> is operating

<4>Pelham Bay to Crown Heights

  • Operates on weekdays only
  • Operates express in The Bronx in the peak direction    

(6) Woodlawn to City Hall

  • Short turns at Burnside Av when <6> is operating

<6> Woodlawn to City Hall

  •  Operates on weekdays only
  •  Operates express in The Bronx in the peak direction

Additional Notes:

  • (5) + <5> would be discontinued
  • (A) would provide alternate express service to Manhattan via the Concourse line, with additional peak express trips offered by diamond (A) (why no bullet for <A> ?) that would also operate express in the Bronx (like current (D) line).

Let me know if there are any major issues with these routes that I'm missing. Thx.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Here's the new map with the (6) split removed, and the (5) removed completely ( 😪 ) to address the concerns raised for the operations at 125th.... 

I realized that the proposal I made above with (4) to Pelham would make the Lex Express service much too inaccessible to the rest of the Bronx Lines, so this seems to be the best way I can think of to simplify the Bronx lines (without any new infrastructure)...

NYC-Final-Legends-Revised.png.9305ddeb6404f9536be6eaad0e5afaa5.png

Edited by drekroid
Map Updated

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Posted (edited)

Additional Notes:

(4)  Woodlawn to New Lots

  • Local trains short-turn at Burnside Av when <4> is operating
  • <4> operates on weekdays only between Woodlawn and Crown Heights, and operates express in The Bronx in the peak direction only

(5) + <5> Discontinued - replaced by (2) + diamond (2) + <4> 

(B) Washington Heights to Coney Island

  • Local trains short-turn at Brighton Beach when <B> is operating
  • <B> operates on weekdays only, and operates express in Brooklyn
  • Extended to Inwood at night when (C) is not operating

(D) Discontinued - replaced by (A) + diamond (A) in The Bronx, by (C) + <B> in Manhattan, and by (Q) in Brooklyn 

(E) Coney Island to Jamaica Ctr

  • Local trains short-turn at Kings Hwy when diamond (E) is operating 
  • Diamond (E) operates between Coney Island and 179th St at peak times only, and operates express in Brooklyn in the peak direction only

(J) Broad St to Jamaica Ctr

  • Local service operates between Chambers St and and Broadway Junction only when diamond (J) is operating
  • Diamond (J) operates at peak times only, and operates express in the peak direction only

(Z) Discontinued - replaced by diamond (J) 

Edited by drekroid

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Posted (edited)

I could make some changes:

(A) : Service operate between 207 St and Far Rockaway All Times. Rush Hours to/from Rockaway Park.

(H) : Service operate between 207 St and Lefferts Blvd. (A) to Lefferts Blvd are relabeled (H) providing same service and to reduce passenger confusion. Going South Bound When taking the (A) it will only go to Rockaways, and the (H) would only go to Lefferts Blvd.

 

(S) : Rockaway Park Shuttle service remains the same. However on Weekends daytime provide service to Rockaway Blvd.

(C) : Service remain the same.

(B) : Service remain the same Local in Bronx and Manhattan until 59 St and then Express via 6 Av line and in Brooklyn same weekdays on Brighton Line Exp to Brighton Beach.

(D) : Service remain the same normal and weekday Rush Hours Exp in Bronx and Manhattan. However in Brooklyn there some changes. Operate all times on the Brighton Line local to Coney Island Stillwell Av.

(E): service is the same.

(F): service is the same.

(G): service is the same.

(J)(Z) : service is the same.

(M) : normal weekday service between Metropolitan Av and Forest Hills 71 Av. Late Evenings and Weekend service to 96 St/2 Av would become permanent.

(L) : is the same.

(N) : is the same.

(Q) : operates the same service in Manhattan to 96 St/2 Av. However in Brooklyn there are some changes. Operates to Coney Island via 4 Av Exp and West End all times. Late Nights all local.

(R): is the same.

(W) : is the same.

(1) : is the same.

(2) : is the same.

(3): would have some changes. Weekday service only operate normal service between hours of 5:30 am and 11:30pm. No Late Night shuttle to Times Sq 42 St and No Weekend service. Shuttle Buses provide service between 148 St and 135 St when (3) is not running late nights/overnights and weekends.

(4) : service is normal weekday service in Bronx, Manhattan and Brooklyn. However late nights/overnights and weekends they are some changes.

Weekday late nights/overnights service operates normal local service to New Lots Av.

Weekends daytime normal service Local in Bronx, Express in Manhattan, Local in Brooklyn to New Lots Av. Late Nights/ overnights all Local. Operate to New Lots Av all Weekends.

(5) normal weekday service is the same. However on Weekends permanently operates between Eastchester Dyre Av and East 180 St.

(6) : is the same.

(7) : is the same.

 

 

 

Edited by bwwnyc123

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Have the (J) and (Z) run the same stops in Brooklyn and Queens, then run the (J) along the (M) to Bway/Lafayette then run up 5 Av to 59 St, then run to 11 Av on 59 St, then up 11 Av to 72 St. also make it all-time service

Normal route from Jamaica, then

Delancey-Essex (F)(M)(J)

Bway/Lafayette (B)(D)(F)(M)

8 St/5 Av

16 St/5 Av (Build Connection to Union Sq (4)(5)(6)(L)(N)(Q)(R)(W))

23 St/5 Av (R)(W)

30 St/5 Av

37 St/5 Av

42 St/5 Av (B)(D)(F)(M)(7)

47 St/5 Av

53 St/5 Av (E)(M)

59 St/5 Av (N)(R)(W)

Columbus Circle (1)(A)(B)(C)(D)

11 Av/59 St

11 Av/66 St

72 St (1)(2)(3)

 

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Here are the full details of the changes I propose for the simplified and more efficient network:

Proposed IRT changes:

(2) Wakefield / Eastchester to Flatbush

  • Splits at E 180 St to provide alternating service to 241 St and Dyre Av
  • Local service on the Wakefield branch short-turns at Nereid Av when Diamond (2) is operating
  • Diamond (2) operates at peak times only, and operates express in The Bronx in the peak direction only    

(3) Harlem to Crown Heights

  • Late night shuttle operates between Harlem and Times Square only
  • Some trips to and from New Lots for yard access

(4) Woodlawn to New Lots

  • Local trains short-turn at Burnside Av when <4> is operating 
  • <4> operates on weekdays only between Woodlawn and Crown Heights, and operates express in The Bronx in the peak direction only 

(5) + <5>Discontinued - replaced by (2) + diamond (2) + <4> 

 

Proposed IND/BMT changes:

(A) Norwood to Ozone Park / Far Rockaway / Rockaway Park

  • Local trains short-turn at Bedford Park when diamond (A) Bronx express service is operating
  • Diamond (A) operates at peak times only, offering express service on the Concourse line between Norwood and Euclid in the peak direction. Additional diamond (A) trains also operate between Rockaway Park and Bedford Park in the peak direction.

(B) Washington Heights to Coney Island 

  • Local trains short-turn at Brighton Beach when <B> is operating
  • <B> operates on weekdays only, and operates express in Brooklyn in both directions
  • Service is extended to Inwood at night when (C) is not operating 
  • Local service replaces (Q) in Brooklyn

(C) Inwood to Euclid Av

  • Operates express in Manhattan 
  • Late night service to Inwood provided by (B) 

(D) Discontinued - replaced by (A) + diamond (A) in The Bronx, by (C) + <B> in Manhattan, and by (Q) in Brooklyn 

(E) Coney Island to Jamaica Ctr

  • Serves Culver Line (replacing (F)) and terminates at Coney Island
  • Local trains short-turn at Kings Hwy when diamond (E) is operating 
  • Diamond (E) operates at peak times only, offering Brooklyn express service on the Culver Line between Coney Island and Forest Hills in the peak direction. Additional diamond (E) trains also operate between Jamaica-179th St and Kings Highway in the peak direction.

(F)  Jamaica-179th St to WTC Cortland

  • Serves Lower Manhattan (replacing (C)(E)) and terminates at WTC Cortland. 

(J) Broad St to Jamaica Ctr

  • Local service operates between Chambers St and and Broadway Junction only when diamond (J) is operating
  • Diamond (J) operates at peak times only, and operates express in the peak direction only 
  • (Z) Discontinued - replaced by diamond (J) 

Blue (M) Forest Hills to Middle Village

  • Serves 8th Avenue Local line in Manhattan (replacing (C))
  • Late night shuttle operates between Metropolitan Av and Essex St only

(N) 96 St to Coney Island

  • Serves 2nd Avenue Line instead of Astoria, replacing (Q) service
  • Operates express on Broadway to Lower Manhattan
  • Uses tunnel at all times, and runs locally on 4th Av in Brooklyn

(Q) Astoria to Coney Island via West End Line

  • Serves Astoria instead of 2nd Avenue Line, replacing (N) + (W) service in Queens
  • Operates local on Broadway
  • Serves West End line via the Bridge, and replaces (D) service in Brooklyn
  • Local service for Brighton Line provided by (B) at all times

(R) Forest Hills to Bay Ridge via Bridge

  • Operates express on 4th Av in Brooklyn, and uses the bridge instead of the tunnel
  • Late night shuttle service between Bay Ridge and 36 St only

(W) Discontinued - replaced by (Q) in Queens, and express (N) service to Lower Manhattan

Edited by drekroid

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Service changes for (J)(Z) :  Weekdays AM & PM Rush Hours skip stop service peak direction between Jamaica Center and Broadway Junction. (J) makes local stops between Broadway Junction and Marcy Av. (Z) operate Express on middle track between Broadway Junction, Myrtle Av-Bway until Marcy Av. (M) normal local service between Myrtle Av-Bway and Marcy Av.

 

 

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Operational details for my proposed (A) / (C) 8th Av express lines...

Late Night (3 TPH):

  • (A) 3 TPH between Norwood and Far Rockaway (express on CPW, local on 8th Av / Fulton)
  • (S) 3 TPH between Euclid Av and Lefferts Blvd
  • Service to Inwood offered by extended (B) 

Reduced (12 TPH):

  • (A) 3 TPH between Norwood and Far Rockaway
  • (A) 3 TPH between Norwood and Lefferts Blvd
  • (C) 6 TPH between Inwood and Euclid Av (runs express in Manhattan) 

Daytime (16 TPH):

  • (A) 4 TPH between Norwood and Far Rockaway
  • (A) 4 TPH between Norwood and Lefferts Blvd
  • (C) 8 TPH between Inwood and Euclid Av (runs express in Manhattan) 

Peak - for Bronx (24 TPH):

  • Diamond (A) 4 TPH between Norwood and Far Rockaway (Concourse express)
  • Diamond (A) 4 TPH between Norwood and Lefferts Blvd (Concourse express)
  • (A) 6 TPH between Bedford Park and Euclid Av (Concourse local)
  • (C) 10 TPH between Inwood and Euclid Av (runs express in Manhattan) 

Peak - for Brooklyn / Queens (24 TPH):

  • (A) 6 TPH between Norwood and Far Rockaway
  • (A) 6 TPH between Bedford Park and Lefferts Blvd
  • Diamond (A) 2 TPH between Norwood and Rockaway Park
  • (C) 10 TPH between Inwood and Euclid Av (runs express in Manhattan) 

 

 

Edited by drekroid

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1 hour ago, drekroid said:

Peak - for Bronx (24 TPH):

  • Diamond (A) 4 TPH between Norwood and Far Rockaway (Concourse express)
  • Diamond (A) 4 TPH between Norwood and Lefferts Blvd (Concourse express)
  • (A) 6 TPH between Bedford Park and Euclid Av (Concourse local)
  • (C) 10 TPH between Inwood and Euclid Av (runs express in Manhattan) 

The Concourse line has a lot of intra-corridor ridership, and is a key relief line for Lex. While I understand the wish to deinterline 145, you really should think about sending a local branch to BPB/running all CPW expresses via Concourse express. 6tph is what they run up Concourse local today, and whenever I ride up there, I see lots of people riding the more-frequent (D) to an express stop and then backriding to their local stop so they can take advantage of the ~20tph that runs in the reverse peak direction rather than waiting around at 145 or Tremont for a (B)

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Just now, RR503 said:

The Concourse line has a lot of intra-corridor ridership, and is a key relief line for Lex. While I understand the wish to deinterline 145, you really should think about sending a local branch to BPB/running all CPW expresses via Concourse express. 6tph is what they run up Concourse local today, and whenever I ride up there, I see lots of people riding the more-frequent (D) to an express stop and then backriding to their local stop so they can take advantage of the ~20tph that runs in the reverse peak direction rather than waiting around at 145 or Tremont for a (B)

Smart! I didn't know riders did that. Do riders on the (7) or (6) do this?

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4 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

Smart! I didn't know riders did that. Do riders on the (7) or (6) do this?

I thought this was a common thing , I know I sometimes do this on the (C) 

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9 minutes ago, Maxwell179 said:

I thought this was a common thing , I know I sometimes do this on the (C) 

I don't use a local stop so I don't have to deal with this but have wondered whether people using 67th Avenue do this.

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24 minutes ago, Maxwell179 said:

I thought this was a common thing , I know I sometimes do this on the (C) 

I’d imagine people at 103rd-116th would do this as well.

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1 minute ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

I’ve done it a few times, and even towards 63rd Drive (my home stop) as well. 

Is it worth it? That was my home stop until I was 5.

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Just now, Union Tpke said:

Is it worth it? That was my home stop until I was 5.

Sometimes, especially if I don’t feel like waiting for a local train at Roosevelt (Which I usually do) or if I miss my stop (Which is very rare for me to do)

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58 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

I don't use a local stop so I don't have to deal with this but have wondered whether people using 67th Avenue do this.

67th Ave was my home stop from 2012-15. I never backtracked to it unless all northbound QBL services got rerouted to the express tracks. If I was on an (E) or (F) express, I’d just get off at 71st and walk home from there.

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1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

Smart! I didn't know riders did that. Do riders on the (7) or (6) do this?

I don’t think they do as much — Concourse has a crappy combo of low local frequencies, local trains which run local off corridor (ie they’re infrequent *and* CPW local), and higher combined frequencies in the reverse peak than the peak (Concourse peak is 15tph or so, reverse peak is 20). 

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Not exactly the same scenario but a lot of people (me included) will just take the (N) to 59th and then walk/bus/uber/you name it to their destination in Bay Ridge when the (R) pulls another disappearing act.

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3 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Not exactly the same scenario but a lot of people (me included) will just take the (N) to 59th and then walk/bus/uber/you name it to their destination in Bay Ridge when the (R) pulls another disappearing act.

How long do you wait at 59th before deciding to ditch the (R)?

Edited by Union Tpke

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6 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

How long do you wait at 59th before deciding to ditch the (R)?

It depends on a combination of what the countdown clock says and how far Bus Time says the B9 is. The longest I'll consider staying is around 10 minutes or so only if the wait for the bus is longer.

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