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EE Broadway Local

Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

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17 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Unsure. One of the great advantages of Westchester Sq is that the station isn't abutted by buildings on its north side. Not the case at Woodhaven, though I'm sure there's some way to phase things to swing a conversion. (build out a length of middle track around the station and have local trains bypass in one direction while their side is rebuilt??) 

 

Precisely! It would have to be done in Phases like your Westchester Sq Plan. Not to mention that it could be a new place rob short turn trains.

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Since there was some talk about a <D> express on West End a while back and its come back to the surface with the implementation of the <F>, I decided to take another look at my deinterlining plan (in which the (Q) takes over West End) and come up with a possible scenario for a <Q> West End Express.

As it stands during peak times, there would be 30 TPH on Broadway/4 Av Express. Of these trains, 15 TPH are (N) trains and 15 TPH are (Q) trains. Those would operate as follows:

Quote

(N) 

10 TPH to Coney Island

5 TPH to Kings Highway

(Q) 

10 TPH to Coney Island

5 TPH to Bay Parkway

Basically, every third train short turns.

A West End Express scenario could look like this:

Quote

(N) 

10 TPH to Coney Island

5 TPH to Kings Highway

(Q) 

7.5 TPH to Bay Parkway

<Q> 

7.5 TPH to Coney Island

This would result in local stations seeing a train every 8 minutes in the peak, which is roughly the amount of service they see now.

The PM rush hour could look something like this:

-5:01 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:03 (Q) Bay Parkway (West End) 

-5:05 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:07 <Q> Coney Island via West End

-5:09 (N) Kings Highway

-5:11 (Q) Bay Parkway (West End) 

-5:13 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:15 <Q> Coney Island via West End

-5:17 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:19 (Q) Bay Parkway (West End) 

-5:21 (N) Kings Highway

-5:23 <Q> Coney Island via West End

-5:25 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:27 (Q) Bay Parkway (West End) 

-5:29 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:31 <Q> Coney Island via West End

-5:33 (N) Kings Highway

-5:35 (Q) Bay Parkway (West End) 

-5:37 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:39 <Q> Coney Island via West End

-5:41 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:43 (Q) Bay Parkway (West End) 

-5:45 (N) Kings Highway

-5:47 <Q> Coney Island via West End

-5:49 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:51 (Q) Bay Parkway (West End) 

-5:53 (N) Coney Island via Sea Beach

-5:55 <Q> Coney Island via West End

-5:57 (N) Kings Highway

-5:59 (Q) Bay Parkway (West End) 

 

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10 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That is a good way to run a West End express. But then you’d have to have all that extra transferring at Atlantic and DeKalb.

I don't think the cons out weight the pros in this instance, Dekalb needs deinterlining one way or another. 

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Here is an updated plan of mine showing what an SAS with 4 tracks should look like. 

(T) - Second Ave Local, Express between 125-72nd. Fordham Road/3rd Ave to Bay Ridge via 3rd Avenue in the Bronx, SAS, Water Street or Nassau, Montague, 4th Avenue

(U) - Second Ave Express, Bartow Ave/Bronx to Coney Island via 3rd Avenue, SAS, north side Manhattan Bridge tracks, Brighton Express

(V) Second Ave Local, 179th Street/Queens to Brighton Beach via Hillside Ave, Queens Blvd, Queens Bypass, SAS, north side Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Local

 

Notes and other plans:

(G)(L) will run to a 3 track Northern Blvd line

(U) (V) displace (B)(D) to Metropolitan Ave and Bway Junction respectively, and (Q) to West End.

(T) displaces (R)(W) to Fulton, (R) will run to Hollis and (W) to Euclid

(J) runs as a rush hour service between Essex and Jamaica

(E)(K)(F)(M) plan for QBL, (K) will run to RBB, splitting off at 63rd Drive.

(A) and (C) will run the same routes so they might have to be integrated to an (A) service, another option is that Lefferts runs can be (C) while Far Rock runs can be (A)

Thoughts?

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1 minute ago, KK 6 Ave Local said:

@Jova42R are your line plans part of that map in your signature? Just curious.

No, that is just a fantasy map i found, i think some of the lines in there are good, some are bad.

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6 Train Revision

Downtown-Extension via Broadway local to Atlantic Av (Rush Hours to New Lots Av local)

Uptown-6 splits into different lines. 6 and 8 local via park/lexington to 125 st. 6 Express becomes 8 Train. New 8 Train runs express, making stops at 125 st, Whitlock Av, Parkchester, Westchester Sq-Tremont Av, and Pelham Bay Park while the 6 runs local. 8 Train would then go to Co-op City- Bartow Av/Bay Plaza, and on to Eastchester-Dyre Av. The 6 would turn to Pelham Bay Park via Bronx and Pelham Pkwy to City Island.

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10 minutes ago, Harlem Crosstown said:

Good concept. Light rail can be kind of an in between for SBS and subway. Bronx and Brooklyn should have some too.

I have been working on Light Rail plans for Brooklyn as well.

While it is a work in progress, my plan for Brooklyn Light Rail would consists of a few trunk lines and some branches that branch off these trunk lines. One of these branches is what I call the Waterfront Line. The Waterfront Line gets its name from running along the Brooklyn and Queens Waterfront. Essentially it is DeBlasio's dream Brooklyn Queens Light Rail, but enhanced for better connectivity. Now for the routing:

The northern end of the Waterfront Line would begin at 26th Avenue and 2nd Street, near Hallets Point and Astoria Houses. From here, the line would continue along 26th Avenue and head south on 8th Street with a second stop at Astoria Blvd. At this point, the Waterfront Line then runs parallel to the Queens Shore of the East River along Vernon Blvd making several stops along the way. The 36th Avenue stop would connect with the Inner City Line Branch to/from Roosevelt Island. At the end of Vernon Blvd, the Inner City and Waterfront Lines merge and run over the Newtown Creek to Manhattan Avenue in Brooklyn, where the Waterfront Line splits from the Inner City Line and continues along the Waterfront. Service would then continue along Franklin Street to around South 5th Street, where the line will head west, rise on a concrete viaduct high in the sky, then merge again with the Inner City Line to a station above the Williamsburg Bridge Plaza, connecting with numerous bus lines, the present Jamaica El, and eventually, the South 4th Street Subway (when that comes). After the plaza, elevated running ends, and street running resumes through South Williamsburg and the Brooklyn Navy Yard to Sands Street. This section is shared by both Waterfront and Inner City trains. At Sands Street, the shared section ends, and the two lines split, ironically with the Waterfront Line taking more of a "Inner City" route along Navy Street, while the Inner City Line would pass through Dumbo near the waterfront. Once along Navy Street, service would operate down that street making several stops. Half way between Myrtle Avenue and DeKalb Avenue, elevated running would resume, and the structure would make its way into the second floor of a new bus terminal at the corner of the Ashland, Fulton, and Lafayette Avenues. This is where the Brooklyn Bridge Park (BBP) Line begins (see below). Actual routing would depend on the final location of the terminal. From here, the Light rail would take over existing bus service and travel along the Fulton Mall to Adams Street, where the Waterfront Line continues south while the BBP Line goes north. Service would travel via Atlantic Avenue, Columbia Street, around the Battery Tunnel, Inlay Street, and service the Red Hook Waterfront before reaching IKEA Terminal. At IKEA Terminal, the line would snake away from the existing bus routing, and run along Bay Street (serving the park), Smith Street, and 10th Street, before finally continuing down 3rd Avenue to Bay Ridge.

Branches:

Inner City Line:

This line is a branch line of the Waterfront Line, serving areas away from the Waterfront, hence the "Inner City" name. On my map, the IC Line would begin at the south end of Roosevelt Island. However, I am evaluating having it service the northern end of the island instead. Both alignments would meet at the Roosevelt Island Bridge, the cross the Bridge to Vernon Blvd, where passengers can transfer to the Waterfront Line. The IC Line would run along 36th Avenue, 31st Street, and Jackson Avenue to merge with the Waterfront Line to cross the creek into Brooklyn. Once in Brooklyn, the IC Line takes a more inland route via Ash Street, McGuinness Blvd, and Driggs Avenue, before cutting through the center of McCarren Park (Lorimer Street) and rising on an elevated structure along the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway (BQE) with a single stop at Metropolitan Avenue. After Metro Avenue, the elevated structure would leave the BQE, travel along South 3rd Street and meet up with the Waterfront Line. The Waterfront Line and Inner City Line would then travel together through S. Williamsburg and the Navy Yard to Sands Street, where the IC Line snakes through Dumbo through local streets before running along Jay Street to terminate at Jay Street and Wiloughby Street.

Brooklyn Bridge Park Line:

The smallest of the three lines, the Brooklyn Bridge Line consists of a spur off the Waterfront Line from Borough Hall that operates via Cadman Plaza to Pier 1. South of Pier 1, the line follows the Waterfront Line tracks to Atlantic-Barclays Bus Terminal.

Here is the map for more details:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=15G-1F2np_sSKRf0HEGumBicvGxUs1zzl&usp=sharing

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Here’s a simplified version of @KK 6 Ave Local‘s plan because I really liked that plan:

(T) from Fordham Road to Bay Ridge via 3rd Ave, SAS, Nassau, and 4th Ave via Montague

(V) from Jamaica-179th Street to Brighton Beach or Coney Island via QB, Bypass, SAS, Manhattan Bridge, and Brighton Local/Express (It will run both like the old (Q)<Q> as the (Q) is deinterlined to West End and the (B)(D) are to Williamsburg) 

(R)(W) to LGA and Fulton

(R) to the Jamaica Line past Broadway Junction

(E)(K)(F)(M) in Queens Blvd (E)(K) express via 53rd, (F)(M) local via 63

(B) to Metropolitan, (D) to Bway Junction

Basic deinterlining plans in most places, (A)(C) just becomes (A) 

Edited by Harlem Crosstown

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3 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

While on the topic of light rail what should be done for cross bronx transit?

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3003893556293162&id=196173003731912

I'm going with a light rail along Fordham Road. This would connect to all the major Bronx lines (except the (1) but it will connect in Manhattan)

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:QB: LGA Uptown Connector LIGHT RAIL

 

LGA Airport (QJ)

runs via Ditmars

Hazen St (QJ)

Steinway St (QJ)

31 St (N)(W)(QJ)

21 St (QJ)

runs via 21 St

24 Av (QJ)

Astoria Blvd (QJ)

South Astoria - 8 St (QJ)

Roosevelt Island - Lighthouse

runs via 86 St

York Av

2 Av (Q)

Lexington Av (4)(5)(6)

5 Av

CPW (B)(C)

Broadway (1)

 

(QJ) LGA-Midtown Connector LIGHT RAIL

LGA Airport :QB:

runs via Ditmars

Hazen St :QB:

Steinway St :QB:

31 St (N)(W):QB:

21 St :QB:

runs via 21 St

24 Av :QB:

Astoria Blvd :QB:

South Astoria - 8 St :QB:

runs via Vernon Blvd

31 Dr

36 Av

Rooosevelt Island - Main St

Roosevelt Island - Tramway Plaza (F)

Roosevelt Island - Cornell Tech

53 St/1 Av

48 St - UN

42 St/1 Av

runs via 42 St

3 Av

Grand Central (4)(5)(6)(S)(7)

5-6 Avs - Bryant Park (B)(D)(F)(M)(7)

Times Sq (1)(2)(3)(7)(A)(C)(E)(N)(Q)(R)(W)(S)

9 Av - Port Authority (A)(C)(E)

runs via 10 Av

39 St

Hudson Yards (7)

28 St

23 St

14 St

Abingdon Sq

HHuds

 

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(G) extension:

runs via 48 Av

30 St (NX)

Greenpoint Av (NX)

48 St (NX)

58 St (NX)

65 St (NX)

runs via 51 Av

70 St (NX)

Queens Blvd (NX)

Grand Av (NX)(M)(R)

runs via Corona Av

90 St (NX)

Junction Blvd (NX)

runs via Junction Blvd

42 Av (NX)

Roosevelt Av (NX)(7)<7>

34 Av (NX)

Astoria Blvd (NX)

LGA Airport (NX)

 

(NX) train:

 

67 St - Riverside South

runs via 72 St

Bway (1)(2)(3)

CPW (B)(C)

5 Av

runs via 5 Av

66 St

59 St (N)(R)(W)

53 St (E)(M)

47 St

runs via 47 St

Park Av

3 Av

1 Av - UN

Gantry Plaza - Center Blvd

Court Sq (E)(M)(7)(G)

30 St (G)

Greenpoint Av (G)

48 St (G)

58 St (G)

65 St (G)

runs via 51 Av

70 St (G)

Queens Blvd (G)

Grand Av (G)(M)(R)

runs via Corona Av

90 St (G)

Junction Blvd (G)

runs via Junction Blvd

42 Av (G)

Roosevelt Av (G)(7)<7>

34 Av (G)

Astoria Blvd (G)

LGA Airport (G)

 

 

 

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On 9/18/2019 at 8:48 PM, RR503 said:

I do want you to do that, and I very much stand by that want. Routing (T)(R) to the local tracks of Fulton will serve to reduce the capacity of their Manhattan trunk segments through reverse branching and will just be an annoying source of delay. You really should reconsider this. Generally speaking, I think we all need to step back and reconsider the ways we're integrating SAS into our subway plans. The best ideas out there IMO are ones which combine segregation on the north end (ie no reverse branch at 72) with proper integration at south (SAS-Nassau, SAS-Manhattan Bridge, etc). I think that's the way to go.

Sorry for the late reply on this topic. I was preoccupied with a bunch of other things, such as school, family obligations, etc. As such, I could not find time to reply to big posts like this.

Anyways, I understand that and you are correct that I should choose between the (R) or (T), but not both. Therefore, the best option for what to serve Fulton Local is the (R) and (W) from the Broadway Line. Not only could I have the Astoria service still have direct access to yards (i.e Pitkin Yard), but this could be done even before phases 3 and 4 are complete.

With this plan, the (R) would run between LaGuardia Airport (LGA) and Euclid Avenue at all times except late nights, when service is extended to Lefferts Blvd to replace (C) service at this time. The (W) would then be routed on the new Jamaica Avenue Subway, existing Jamaica Avenue El, and extended Archer Line to Hollis. The (W) would run between LGA and Hollis at all times except late nights. At this time, the (W) would terminate at Whitehall Street instead of Astoria, with the (R) picking up the slack. With CBTC (or god knows what other plans they have up their sleeve), I do anticipate that both line be operates on a 15 train per hour headway. Combined, that is 30 trains per hour combined between LGA and Broadway Junction.

To replace access to the Lower East Side from Cypress Hills, I am also proposing an increase in frequency on the M15 bus route.

Note that my plans for the (N)(Q) Broadway Express to 63rd Street, (A)(C) Fulton Street Express to Queens, and (J) changes will not be affected with the change in plans. They will remain as is.

With the (J) taking over the 4th Avenue Local Line, we do have some excess capacity on the 4th Avenue Line. With this in mind, I do have a plan to connect the southern end of the (T) line to the 4th Avenue Line at Court Street, via a new under river tunnel between Coenties Slip (or wherever the tunnel is planned to end) and Pierrpoint Street, then curve to the Montague Street Tunnel in a similar way to the 60th Street Tunnel Connection. From there, both the (J) and (T) would operate to the new 101st Street terminal I have planned. The (T) would operate at 15 trains per hour, and the (J) possibly at 12 (though 15 can also be possible. The benefit of this is that there is a direct access to both Lower Manhattan and the East Side, thus allowing for one to avoid the (intermittent) crowds at Bowling Green and along the (4) and (5) in general.

On 9/18/2019 at 8:48 PM, RR503 said:

Short turn trains do not address the fundamental limitations of an interlined upper SAS, whether you see those as the unreliability caused by the merge at 72, the negative capacity impact on Broadway service, or the fact that lower SAS would never be able to reach its full potential. If I had to give just one suggestion, it would be to rework SAS. I and others have proposed a whole number of schemes to do so. I'd be happy to rehash those if it'd be helpful. 

I am going to need to rehash those schemes for reworking the SAS for me. It would be helpful.

On 9/18/2019 at 8:48 PM, RR503 said:

You certainly _could_ do this, I just don't know whether the value equation works out. Spending precious dollars on 1:1 replacement of elevated infrastructure is very IND, and is not a luxury we have today. I think you're much better off with the incremental improvements we've discussed--they're unglamorous, but they're also cheap, and crucially do not involve building even more underriver tunnels. 

To me, I feel like the South 4th Street Subway would be worth it since you would have available capacity to accommodate current and future demand. The thing is that with the Jamaica El is a dinosaur built for a different age, where Lower Manhattan was once the business hub of the whole city. Now most of the demand has shifted to midtown, with some Lower Manhattan demand. The structure as a whole is beginning to outlive its usefulness as well, unable to handle more trains for future demand. Yes the incremental improvements are nice as well, but if we're going to route almost all 8th Avenue Local service to the bridge, rebuild the line, for Essex terminal Ops, consolidate a few stops, etc, then might as well build a new subway from here, with a spur to Central Queens. This would allow for future capacity for future demand.

On 9/18/2019 at 8:48 PM, RR503 said:

I detailed the CBTC-merge capacity issue in another thread, which I hope helps you understand why those 40tph capacity numbers are somewhat dependent on their not being too many merges. For these reasons, as well as those of reliability, I think deinterlining QB is the way to go here. (E)(K) local, (E)(K) express/(G) extension, you take your pick. 

On the subject of the QB Deinterlining, I also had some other concerns with trying to fully deinterline QB and the 8th Avenue Line, which both have similar Junctions. If I go overzealous on deinterlining, I could end up with one branch with express only service and another with local only service and/or both branches access to one line only. This may not go well with most riders.

You did mention at one point on here regarding 8th Avenue that deinterlining 59th Street does not mean also deinterlining 145th Street. This would've been achieved by swapping the (C) and (D). Initially, I balked at this due to the fact that Norwood residents may get upset about losing the (D) designation. However, I am willing to put historical preferences aside and fully embrace this plan. With this, the (A) and (C) would be on the express tracks and the (B) and (D) would be on the local tracks. North of 145th Street, the (A) would make express stops to 207th Street, joined by the (D), making local stops to 168th Street. On the Concourse Line, the (B) would make local stops, while the (C) would travel to 205th Street, replacing the (D). This was also the original route of the (C) for some time since the line opened in 1933.

A similar plan should be examined for Queens Blvd as well, mitigating any concerns regarding slower trips and less options. What I am proposing to do is have the (E) and (K) on the express tracks and the (F) and (V) on the local tracks. At Briarwood, the the (E) would go via Archer Avenue, while the (K) would go via QB Express to Jamaica-179th Street and eventually, Springfield Blvd. The (F) would be local to 179th Street, while the (V) would be going via Archer. More specifically:

(A): 207th Street-Far Rockaway

(B): Bedford Park Blvd-Brighton Beach

(C): Norwood-205th Street - Lefferts Blvd

(D): 168th Street-Coney Island

As for Queens Blvd:

(E): Rosedale-F. Lewis - World Trade Center

(F): Jamaica-179th Street - Coney Island

(K): Queens Village-Springfield Blvd

(V): Rosedale-F. Lewis - Metropolitan Avenue

This service plan should deinterling some of the problem interlockings with minimal impact on commuter travel patterns. In addition, both the Hillside and Archer branches gain both local and express service, while deinterlining 36th Street. A (G) extension would also be included as well (via Northern?) I do plan to incorporate this into my South 4th Street Subway plans.

On 9/18/2019 at 3:53 PM, Harlem Crosstown said:

Also what do you mean by different plans for Utica Ave? (4) service?

I plan to have Utica Avenue served by IRT trains, since travel patterns (and somehow, my own commute) dictate that most customers along the two zip codes along the Utica Avenue corridor (11234, and 11203) have a destination of Downtown Brooklyn first, then Midtown Manhattan. I live in the 11234 zip code, and take the B46 SBS to school, so I do see this myself as well.

On 9/19/2019 at 3:12 PM, Caelestor said:

There's no good reason to abandon Nassau St in any proposal. It can relieve the (4)(5) since it runs straight through the heart of Lower Manhattan and it hasn't been used to its full potential.

You do realize that the Vanshnook map does have a SAS to Lower Manhattan, thus already reliving crowding on the Lex (in fact, had this been completed in 1931, the Lexington Avenue crowding situation would not exist before 2017).

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:8: 96 St/Broadway-7 Av/10 Av Local

LGA Airport

runs via 20 Av

Hazen St

Stienway St

31 St (one stop extension of the (N)(W))

21 St

runs via 21 St

22 Dr

Hoyt Av

27 Av

South Astoria - 2 St

runs via 96 st

2 Av (Q)

Lex Av (6)

5 Av

CPW (B)(C)

96 St (1)(2)(3)

86 St (1)

79 St (1)

72 St (1)(2)(3)

Riverside South - 64-66 Sts

runs via 10 Av

55-57 Sts

48 St

42 St

Hudson Yards (7)

28 St

23 St

17 St - Chelsea Market

Gansevoort St

Abingdon Sq

W4 St (A)(B)(C)(D)(E)(F)(M)

Laguardia Pl/Bleecker St

Broome St/Wooster St

Canal St (N)(Q)(R)(W)(6)(J)(Z)

Chatham Sq

Two Bridges - South St

BBP Pier 1 (connection to (A)(C))

BBP Pier 5

runs via Schemerhorn St

Clinton St

Hoyt-Schemerhorn (A)(C)(G)

Atlantic-Barclays (2)(3)(4)(5)(N)(Q)(R)(B)(D)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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(NX) SI-Manhattan Local

72 St (1)(2)(3)(T)

Riverside South - 64-66 Sts 

runs via 10 Av

55-57 Sts 

48 St 

42 St 

Hudson Yards (7)(T)

runs via 34 St

8 Av - Penn Station (1)(2)(3)(A)(C)(E)(T)

6 Av - Herald Sq (B)(D)(F)(M)(N)(Q)(R)(W)(T)

Park Av (T)

3 Av (T)

1 Av - Ferry Terminal (T)

26 St - Waterside Plaza (T)

runs via Avenue C

17 St - Stuytown (T)

10 St (T)

5 St (T)

Houston St (T)

Delancey St (T)

Water St 

Vinegar Hill - John St 

runs via Gold St

Tillary St 

Navy St/Dekalb Av 

Atlantic Terminal (2)(3)(4)(5)(N)(Q)(R)(B)(D)(T)

runs via 6 Av

Union St

3 St

9 St (F)<F>(G)(T)

14 St

20 St

25 St (R)

runs via 2 Av

33 St - Industry City (T)

39 St

47 St

55-58 Sts - Brooklyn Army Terminal (T)

63 St

runs via Shore Rd

70 St

Bay Ridge Pkwy

86 St

93 St

Fort Hamilton - 3 Av

Grasmere (T) SIR

Clove Rd/SIE (T)

Victory Blvd (T)

runs via Victory

Slosson Av (T)

Jewett Av (T)

Wooley Av (T)

CUNY SI (T)

 

(T) SI-Manhattan Exp

72 St (1)(2)(3)(NX)

Hudson Yards (7)(NX)

runs via 34 St

8 Av - Penn Station (1)(2)(3)(A)(C)(E)(NX)

6 Av - Herald Sq (B)(D)(F)(M)(N)(Q)(R)(W)(NX)

Park Av (NX)

3 Av (NX)

1 Av - Ferry Terminal (NX)

26 St - Waterside Plaza (NX)

runs via Avenue C

17 St - Stuytown (NX)

10 St (NX)

5 St (NX)

Houston St (NX)

Delancey St (NX)

Atlantic Terminal (2)(3)(4)(5)(N)(Q)(R)(B)(D)(NX)

9 St (F)<F>(G)(NX)

33 St - Industry City (NX)

55-58 Sts - Brooklyn Army Terminal (NX)

Grasmere (NX) SIR

Clove Rd/SIE (NX)

Victory Blvd (NX)

runs via Victory

Slosson Av (NX)

Jewett Av (NX)

Wooley Av (NX)

CUNY SI (NX)

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On 9/26/2019 at 7:01 PM, JeremiahC99 said:

Sorry for the late reply on this topic. I was preoccupied with a bunch of other things, such as school, family obligations, etc. As such, I could not find time to reply to big posts like this.

Anyways, I understand that and you are correct that I should choose between the (R) or (T), but not both. Therefore, the best option for what to serve Fulton Local is the (R) and (W) from the Broadway Line. Not only could I have the Astoria service still have direct access to yards (i.e Pitkin Yard), but this could be done even before phases 3 and 4 are complete.

With this plan, the (R) would run between LaGuardia Airport (LGA) and Euclid Avenue at all times except late nights, when service is extended to Lefferts Blvd to replace (C) service at this time. The (W) would then be routed on the new Jamaica Avenue Subway, existing Jamaica Avenue El, and extended Archer Line to Hollis. The (W) would run between LGA and Hollis at all times except late nights. At this time, the (W) would terminate at Whitehall Street instead of Astoria, with the (R) picking up the slack. With CBTC (or god knows what other plans they have up their sleeve), I do anticipate that both line be operates on a 15 train per hour headway. Combined, that is 30 trains per hour combined between LGA and Broadway Junction.

To replace access to the Lower East Side from Cypress Hills, I am also proposing an increase in frequency on the M15 bus route.

Note that my plans for the (N)(Q) Broadway Express to 63rd Street, (A)(C) Fulton Street Express to Queens, and (J) changes will not be affected with the change in plans. They will remain as is.

With the (J) taking over the 4th Avenue Local Line, we do have some excess capacity on the 4th Avenue Line. With this in mind, I do have a plan to connect the southern end of the (T) line to the 4th Avenue Line at Court Street, via a new under river tunnel between Coenties Slip (or wherever the tunnel is planned to end) and Pierrpoint Street, then curve to the Montague Street Tunnel in a similar way to the 60th Street Tunnel Connection. From there, both the (J) and (T) would operate to the new 101st Street terminal I have planned. The (T) would operate at 15 trains per hour, and the (J) possibly at 12 (though 15 can also be possible. The benefit of this is that there is a direct access to both Lower Manhattan and the East Side, thus allowing for one to avoid the (intermittent) crowds at Bowling Green and along the (4) and (5) in general.

I am going to need to rehash those schemes for reworking the SAS for me. It would be helpful.

To me, I feel like the South 4th Street Subway would be worth it since you would have available capacity to accommodate current and future demand. The thing is that with the Jamaica El is a dinosaur built for a different age, where Lower Manhattan was once the business hub of the whole city. Now most of the demand has shifted to midtown, with some Lower Manhattan demand. The structure as a whole is beginning to outlive its usefulness as well, unable to handle more trains for future demand. Yes the incremental improvements are nice as well, but if we're going to route almost all 8th Avenue Local service to the bridge, rebuild the line, for Essex terminal Ops, consolidate a few stops, etc, then might as well build a new subway from here, with a spur to Central Queens. This would allow for future capacity for future demand.

On the subject of the QB Deinterlining, I also had some other concerns with trying to fully deinterline QB and the 8th Avenue Line, which both have similar Junctions. If I go overzealous on deinterlining, I could end up with one branch with express only service and another with local only service and/or both branches access to one line only. This may not go well with most riders.

You did mention at one point on here regarding 8th Avenue that deinterlining 59th Street does not mean also deinterlining 145th Street. This would've been achieved by swapping the (C) and (D). Initially, I balked at this due to the fact that Norwood residents may get upset about losing the (D) designation. However, I am willing to put historical preferences aside and fully embrace this plan. With this, the (A) and (C) would be on the express tracks and the (B) and (D) would be on the local tracks. North of 145th Street, the (A) would make express stops to 207th Street, joined by the (D), making local stops to 168th Street. On the Concourse Line, the (B) would make local stops, while the (C) would travel to 205th Street, replacing the (D). This was also the original route of the (C) for some time since the line opened in 1933.

A similar plan should be examined for Queens Blvd as well, mitigating any concerns regarding slower trips and less options. What I am proposing to do is have the (E) and (K) on the express tracks and the (F) and (V) on the local tracks. At Briarwood, the the (E) would go via Archer Avenue, while the (K) would go via QB Express to Jamaica-179th Street and eventually, Springfield Blvd. The (F) would be local to 179th Street, while the (V) would be going via Archer. More specifically:

(A): 207th Street-Far Rockaway

(B): Bedford Park Blvd-Brighton Beach

(C): Norwood-205th Street - Lefferts Blvd

(D): 168th Street-Coney Island

As for Queens Blvd:

(E): Rosedale-F. Lewis - World Trade Center

(F): Jamaica-179th Street - Coney Island

(K): Queens Village-Springfield Blvd

(V): Rosedale-F. Lewis - Metropolitan Avenue

This service plan should deinterling some of the problem interlockings with minimal impact on commuter travel patterns. In addition, both the Hillside and Archer branches gain both local and express service, while deinterlining 36th Street. A (G) extension would also be included as well (via Northern?) I do plan to incorporate this into my South 4th Street Subway plans.

I plan to have Utica Avenue served by IRT trains, since travel patterns (and somehow, my own commute) dictate that most customers along the two zip codes along the Utica Avenue corridor (11234, and 11203) have a destination of Downtown Brooklyn first, then Midtown Manhattan. I live in the 11234 zip code, and take the B46 SBS to school, so I do see this myself as well.

You do realize that the Vanshnook map does have a SAS to Lower Manhattan, thus already reliving crowding on the Lex (in fact, had this been completed in 1931, the Lexington Avenue crowding situation would not exist before 2017).

I was thinking that the (J)'s route would be replaced by the (T)(D)(W) routes, and the (J) would only run rush hours Essex Street-Hollis, also this could be a rush hour extension of the (D). Future SAS service would go to Northern because the QBL plan takes out the possibility of a Queens Bypass service. I do think we should get a South Fourth Street Subway (different name should apply for the new service) with the (B)(D), something on SAS, and the (E) I will think of a routing later.

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On 9/28/2019 at 8:42 AM, KK 6 Ave Local said:

I was thinking that the (J)'s route would be replaced by the (T)(D)(W) routes, and the (J) would only run rush hours Essex Street-Hollis, also this could be a rush hour extension of the (D). Future SAS service would go to Northern because the QBL plan takes out the possibility of a Queens Bypass service. I do think we should get a South Fourth Street Subway (different name should apply for the new service) with the (B)(D), something on SAS, and the (E) I will think of a routing later.

For my plans, I was thinking of staying in tune of the original 1931 map, with the 6 track South 4th Street stop, and a two-level subway to Myrtle Avenue. However, past Myrtle Avenue, the planned Utica Avenue Line would instead become a 4-track line along Bushwick Avenue to Broadway Junction. Past Broadway Junction would be a lower level splitting from both local and express tracks to allow for relaying of a high amount of trains. Another relay area would exist on the upper level as well. The way I would design it is that the two inner tracks would be used for the turnaround of trains. After about 700 feet, outer tracks and inner tracks would merge with each other, and then run under Pennsylvania Avenue to merge with the IND Fulton Street Local tracks before Liberty Avenue. I don't intend to have the tracks to be used for revenue service, but this would allow for the additional redundancy for service disruptions affecting 8th Avenue trains, allowing for service adjustments on the fly.

For Myrtle Avenue, the layout would be the same as the 1931 plan until Myrtle Avenue. However, past Myrtle Avenue, I do intend to run the subway up Gates Avenue (possibly on a two-level situation like the Culver Line) to the Montauk rail line. The downside of the original Myrtle Avenue alignment is that it runs south of the current alignment. By running it up Gates Avenue, this could better serve Ridgewood since it runs through the heart of the neighborhood, but it would be disruptive construction on residential streets (something bough up by Vashnookenraggen when he also proposed that alignment.

Past the railroad tracks, the alignment is uncertain. One option I had was to create track connections to the existing Metropolitan Avenue terminal. This would allow for the use of the existing Metropolitan terminal instead of constructing another terminal. However, a somewhat of a steep ramp would be required. A second option would be to take it along the Montauk Line to a terminal at Woodhaven Blvd in Glendale. This would allow for subway service to be bought out to Glendale, but could possibly miss transfers to area bus routes, such as the Q54. However, the Q54 serves Atlas Park Mall, near one of the proposed stations, so it is anticipated that most folks on that bus route looking for bus service can transfer there via a passageway next to the mall. As for the other bus routes serving Metropolitan Avenue (Q38, Q67), they can be extended to serve the Fresh Pond Road stop instead. Another option could be to build a passageway under the Metro Mall (with direct access to both the mall and the street) to access the new station there. However, these passageways may not be convenient for rush hour crowds.

If anyone can come up with a more desirable alignment for this section of the Myrtle Avenue Subway., that would be welcome.

As for stations on the new lines, I am proposing several stations along the whole trunk line, though this may be different from the original proposal. On the 8th Avenue connection via Worth Street (which I am also proposing), on the Vanshnook map, there were stations proposed at Chatham Sq, East Broadway, and at Grand Street in Manhattan, and at Bedford Avenue in Brooklyn. One change I made with my proposal would be the inclusion of one new station at Lafayette Street and Worth Street. This would create an additional transfer point to trains going downtown (Lexington Avenue IRT) to relieve the congestion that would develop at Chatham Sq.

On the 6th Avenue connection (the express tracks), the single station at Clinton Street would remain the same. However, at the East River Shoreline, the tunnel would then dive under the East River to directly reach the Brooklyn Shoreline at South 4th Street (the tunnel would be oriented in a Southeastern orientation). In Brooklyn, I am proposing for an stop at Wythe Avenue to serve as an alternate station in Williamsburg to ease congestion at both Bedford Avenue and Havenmeyer Street.

Both the 8th Avenue and the 6th Avenue trains would meet at the a huge station at Havenmeyer Street, which would have a short passageway to the Williamsburg Plaza Bus station. A connection to the Nassau Street Line would be provided. The station would be 6 tracks. The existing South 4th Street shell would be used for the new Union Avenue station, providing connections between 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue, Crosstown, and Nassau Street trains. Past South 4th Street, there would be a station at Flushing Avenue, serving local trains on both levels, and an express station at Myrtle Avenue. Between Union and Myrtle Avenues, there would be 8 tracks on two levels, 4 on each level, with the upper level serving trains to Broadway Junction and the lower Level serving Myrtle Avenue trains. The 4-track configuration would continue outward.

On the Myrtle Avenue Line, there would be a local station at Wilson Avenue. This station would also be served by a branch of the Crosstown Line trains, and this station and the express Myrtle-Wyckoff stop, which is after Wilson Avenue, would serve as alternate transfer points to Crosstown trains to relieve some of the burden at Union Avenue. After Myrtle-Wyckoff will be a local stations at Seneca Avenue and Forest Avenue (near the current stops), then an express stop at Fresh Pond Road. Under the Glendale RR option, this could be the terminal for local service. Express trains can continue along the railroad with a stop at Metro Mall, 69th Street, Cooper Avenue, Atlas Park-80th Street and the terminal at Glendale-Woodhaven Blvd.

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