Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Jova42R]

@LaGuardia Link N Tra @mrsman @JeremiahC99 if we relocate the Transit Museum to Nassau St, then we could have the  to Brooklyn. My proposal is linked here. I think that for a museum on Nassau, we could have the following layout:

• Bowery is a la Canal and Chambers. SAS service on upper level, no track connections
• Canal is 1/3 of the bus section. NO ENTRANCES
• Grand St  becomes the north entrance, and northern end of excursion trains (new track connection to Nassau). This is 1/3 of the bus section.
• Chambers is half station exhibit, half excursion station. main entrance here
• Fulton becomes 1/3 of the bus section. Access by excursion trains from Broad, Grand, or Bowery
• Broad becomes the southern entrance, with a new platform south of the station for more exhibits.

EXCURSIONS WOULD RUN USING THE FOLLOWING PATTERNS, AND WOULD BE FREE WITH MUSEUM FARE:

• Grand - Chambers Outer - Broad (designated the  Grand-Broad Shuttle, blue on museum maps)
• Bowery - Canal - Chambers Outer - Broad (designated the  Nassau Shuttle, brown on museum maps)

I may post a map later of the services.

[JeremiahC99]

2 minutes ago, Jova42R said:

@LaGuardia Link N Tra @mrsman @JeremiahC99 if we relocate the Transit Museum to Nassau St, then we could have the  to Brooklyn. My proposal is linked here. I think that for a museum on Nassau, we could have the following layout:

• Bowery is a la Canal and Chambers. SAS service on upper level, no track connections
• Canal is 1/3 of the bus section. NO ENTRANCES
• Grand St  becomes the north entrance, and northern end of excursion trains (new track connection to Nassau). This is 1/3 of the bus section.
• Chambers is half station exhibit, half excursion station. main entrance here
• Fulton becomes 1/3 of the bus section. Access by excursion trains from Broad, Grand, or Bowery
• Broad becomes the southern entrance, with a new platform south of the station for more exhibits.

EXCURSIONS WOULD RUN USING THE FOLLOWING PATTERNS, AND WOULD BE FREE WITH MUSEUM FARE:

• Grand - Chambers Outer - Broad (designated the  Grand-Broad Shuttle, blue on museum maps)
• Bowery - Canal - Chambers Outer - Broad (designated the  Nassau Shuttle, brown on museum maps)

I may post a map later of the services.

I never even thought of having trains serve Governors Island, but my plans for Red Hook are a bit different compared to what I have done. I don't want to spoil much of it now, but it will involve having Broadway Line (using a new under river tunnel) trains going via Columbia Street and meander through Red Hook before crossing under the Gowanus Canal to exit Red Hook. The reasoning for Columbia Street was to serve the Cobble Hill area east of the expressway as well as the Columbia Street Waterfront district, both of which appear to be not close to current subway options on Smith Street (). For your option 2, I would just suggest doing the diagonal route under homes to get between Remsen and Schermerhorn and maybe move the State Street station so that it could effectively serve Brooklyn Bridge Park. I'd leave that portion for the Red Hook trains. 

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

Theoretically, the Nassau line could be connected to Grand St through the old bridge tracks north of Chambers, but to avoid merging issues one would probably have to curtail the to Canal Street (which actually used to be a terminal station in the '90s, until they redid the track layout).

But even so, the Nassau Street line has outlived it's usefulness- it duplicates the Lower Manhattan portion of the Lexington line and is too far away from the riverfront to be of any use to the residents there.  The best thing (in a perfect word which doesn't exist, of course) would be if the  replaced it with a new alignment heading north from Montague, up Water/Pearl/SaintJames, and tying in to the Chrystie Line.  Assuming it would be 4 tracks, could probably solve several problems at once.

While I still admire the sheer extensiveness of New York's subway/el system after all these years, lately it's become harder for me to ignore the flawed layouts in some parts; best examples are Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn- seemed normal when I was a kid, but now I realize they're both complete clusterf**ks when it comes to planning.

Actually, now that I think about it, I could imagine a scenario where a Nassau St line would be useful. It is, after all, a four track line in the middle of Manhattan, well-connected to other transfer hubs like Fulton-WTC, and it is large.

Consider this:

• SAS to Grand St & Manhattan Br
• to the Jamaica Line
• Four track Regional Rail to Nassau St line:
  • two tracks MNR and two tracks LIRR
  • one enlarged Fulton St stop
  • MNR to SI, LIRR to Atlantic
  • Connections to Montague and Williamsburg are broken.

[Jova42R]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Actually, now that I think about it, I could imagine a scenario where a Nassau St line would be useful. It is, after all, a four track line in the middle of Manhattan, well-connected to other transfer hubs like Fulton-WTC, and it is large.

Consider this:

• SAS to Grand St & Manhattan Br
• to the Jamaica Line
• Four track Regional Rail to Nassau St line:
  • two tracks MNR and two tracks LIRR
  • one enlarged Fulton St stop
  • MNR to SI, LIRR to Atlantic
  • Connections to Montague and Williamsburg are broken.

I think that a midtown-brooklyn rail tunnel is a great idea, however, I have a slightly different proposal:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11-DXwhlE_d-ouYARvX8P-yKntsrx_BjdQsnq2-g0QiM/edit?usp=sharing

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, Jova42R said:

@LaGuardia Link N Tra @mrsman @JeremiahC99 if we relocate the Transit Museum to Nassau St, then we could have the  to Brooklyn. My proposal is linked here. I think that for a museum on Nassau, we could have the following layout:

• Bowery is a la Canal and Chambers. SAS service on upper level, no track connections
• Canal is 1/3 of the bus section. NO ENTRANCES
• Grand St  becomes the north entrance, and northern end of excursion trains (new track connection to Nassau). This is 1/3 of the bus section.
• Chambers is half station exhibit, half excursion station. main entrance here
• Fulton becomes 1/3 of the bus section. Access by excursion trains from Broad, Grand, or Bowery
• Broad becomes the southern entrance, with a new platform south of the station for more exhibits.

EXCURSIONS WOULD RUN USING THE FOLLOWING PATTERNS, AND WOULD BE FREE WITH MUSEUM FARE:

• Grand - Chambers Outer - Broad (designated the  Grand-Broad Shuttle, blue on museum maps)
• Bowery - Canal - Chambers Outer - Broad (designated the  Nassau Shuttle, brown on museum maps)

I may post a map later of the services.

I'd vie for option 1 (without the pointless stop in Governor's Island) over the other two options....

 

[Jova42R]

10 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'd vie for option 1 (without the pointless stop in Governor's Island) over the other two options....

 

Maybe Governors Island could be a summer only stop?

[Collin]

I think there should be provisions to add a stop if the land were to be further developed and people actually living there.

[mrsman]

I wouldn't build a new tunnel just to include Governors Island, but if a new tunnel were deemed necessary, than it might as well connect to it, if that would lead to significant residential development like on Roosevelt Island.

That being said, I don't see a new tunnel to Brooklyn as being necessary while there is still capacity in the Montague and Rutgers tunnels.  The train service needs to be streamlined to make better use of the existing infrastructure, and then building land tunnels to the existing tunnels before new water tunnels.

 

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, Jova42R said:

Maybe Governors Island could be a summer only stop?

It would have to be, but I wouldn't even bother expending any funds, work, or effort in creating it....

2 hours ago, Collin said:

I think there should be provisions to add a stop if the land were to be further developed and people actually living there.

8 minutes ago, mrsman said:

I wouldn't build a new tunnel just to include Governors Island, but if a new tunnel were deemed necessary, than it might as well connect to it, if that would lead to significant residential development like on Roosevelt Island.

I'd run more ferry service to/from there during the course of a day & call it a day, if it did end up being more habitable.....

 

[Deucey]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'd run more ferry service to/from there during the course of a day & call it a day, if it did end up being more habitable.....

But can we finally get a tunnel from SI to anywhere - especially a St George to Bay Ridge, Red Hook or Manhattan one?

Rona’s made me realize how much ferries are crap compromises to building useful things - even more so than they were before Rona hit this city.

[B35 via Church]

20 minutes ago, Deucey said:

But can we finally get a tunnel from SI to anywhere - especially a St George to Bay Ridge, Red Hook or Manhattan one?

Rona’s made me realize how much ferries are crap compromises to building useful things - even more so than they were before Rona hit this city.

You would have to ask this question to the person suggesting subway service to Governor's Island....

Opting to run more ferry service to/from (a more built up) Governor's Island doesn't mean that I wouldn't run subway service to/from Staten Island......

[Collin]

I wonder if there's any way within the existing infrastructure to allow more  service without significant reductions to local service.  I think the current limiting factor for the  is capacity on the Williamsburg Bridge, so that would leave capacity available on the QB and 6th Ave local tracks to add more service.  I just wonder how much capacity is left, both without CBTC, and when CBTC is installed, and if it would be enough to add another 6th Avenue local route that ran to Church Avenue.  This would greatly improve service south of Church because most if not all rush hour trains would go express, and maybe even allow for reverse peak or mid day express service.  Customers at local stations north of Church would have trains that were less crowded since they didn't pick up passengers all the way from Stillwell.

[Eric B]

The only thing I could see is adding some s. Then, you're talking about Cranberry tube capacity. But  I always see a lot of space between and  trains, so I don't see why it's a problem.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Eric B

[engineerboy6561]

Oops, early post

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by engineerboy6561

[Jova42R]

17 hours ago, Deucey said:

But can we finally get a tunnel from SI to anywhere - especially a St George to Bay Ridge, Red Hook or Manhattan one?

Rona’s made me realize how much ferries are crap compromises to building useful things - even more so than they were before Rona hit this city.

Why not built a tunnel from a reactivated North Shore Line (or, if it's LRT, run it over the Bayonne Bridge), then run it with the HBLR (you'd need to construct new tracks), and then bore a tunnel to Manhattan? That'd be two short-ish tunnels instead of one MASSIVE one.

I'll make a map for this and tag you when it is done.

[engineerboy6561]

Building off a bunch of the talk in this thread around improving northeastern Queens service, cleaning up DeKalb, getting only 10-car trains on QBL and redoing the Jamaica line I put together a proposal that should achieve most of those things (while also providing four-track service along the 3 Av corridor in the Bronx and crosstown service along Gun Hill Rd, and building out part of the South 4 St subway). The proposal is as follows:

 Becomes QBL local from Jamaica Center to Chambers St.

 via Williamsburg/Franklin Av/Brighton Local

 extended to Bay Plaza

 extended to Springfield Blvd. Becomes Culver express between Church Av and Bergen St all times except nights; becomes QBL express 179 St-21 St/Queensbridge, rush hours runs express from Kings Highway to Bergen St.

: Restored Culver local/QBL express. Operates from 179 St to Church Av, express Union Turnpike-21 St/Queensbridge, local otherwise, extended rush hours to Kings Highway to allow peak-direction  express service.

 becomes 10 Av/Jamaica local between 72 St and 233 St/Merrick Blvd

  10 Av/Myrtle Av/Horace Harding Expwy local between 72 St and Francis Lewis Blvd

 Astoria/2 Av local, Broadway/Brighton express, runs between LGA and Brighton Beach

(P): 3 Av/2 Av/Jamaica express, Bay Plaza to 233 St/Merrick Blvd.

: 3 Av/2 Av/Fulton St local, Norwood-205 St to Euclid Av.

(U): Astoria Blvd/2 Av/ Utica Av local, Bell Blvd to Kings Plaza.

(Y): Astoria Blvd/2 Av/Utica Av express, Bell Blvd to Kings Plaza.

The idea behind this proposal was to get express service to Jamaica on a way that wasn't QBL, since QBL is essentially full. Since there's already a line via Williamsburg (and Williamsburg/Bushwick were exploding in population before COVID), converting that line into a four-track trunk should take some pressure off QBL (since if you live in Jamaica and work below 34 St or on the East Side the new trunk would be quicker and more convenient) and off the  as well, as Williamsburg/Bushwick goes from getting 36-38tph peak (20  + 10-12  + 6 ) to 65 (20  +15  +15 (P) + 15 ) east of Myrtle and a whopping 95 (20  +15  +15   + 15 (P) + 15 (U) +15 (Y)) east of Myrtle Av. Furthermore, by providing service along Merrick Blvd this should allow for at least some rearrangement of the bus service into Jamaica.

The northern Queens and Bronx service was intended to do two things; the Bronx service was intended to provide subway service to the Webster/3rd Ave corridor, which needs it badly, and to Gun Hill Road as a crosstown. The expected goal of being able to provide up to 30tph through the Bronx core should be a decent size ridership reduction on the , as people who need the East Side and currently live between Southern and the Concourse can just hop the  and have a straight shot to basically all the hospitals on the East Side of Manhattan except Mt Sinai, plus all the workplaces on 3rd, 2nd, and 1st Aves. People living in the north Bronx now have an IND option for both sides of the island (the (P)) for the east side and the  for the west side, which should take a hefty load off of Dyre and WPR.

The Queens changes (the four-track trunk along Astoria Blvd and the LGA spur served by the ) accomplish three main things; they get a train to LGA that doesn't backtrack to Flushing, they take a decent-sized load off the  , and they make it more feasible to cut down on some of the bus traffic into Flushing by arranging for some of the Eastern Queens lines to terminate at Bell Blvd or 162/Crocheron. This setup would also connect northern Queens directly to the West Side by connecting to the  at 75 St (for local trains) or 31 St (for express trains), and allow one-seat rides to the East Side from Flushing. In theory the  could be extended to College Point from LGA, and the yard for all this could be placed on the old Flushing Airport site; I just wasn't sure whether it was the best idea. The  extension and QBL rearrangement leaves the  as the QBL locals and the  as the QBL expresses; now the only merges you have are the  with the  just west of QP, and the  with the  just east of Union Turnpike, which should let you run 55tph on QBL (15 each of , 10 of  because of  service to Astoria), and all trains are 600'.

The Utica Av line is essentially set up to be the South 4th St subway as originally planned, just with only four tracks because 30tph should be enough to serve Utica Av just fine, and the local/express split is mostly to improve travel time for South Brooklyn riders rather than being super necessary; that could instead be run as a two-track local line with the extra 15 express tph continuing on to Jamaica to provide 75tph between Jamaica and Manhattan rather than the 60 that my current proposal would call for; I'm not sure what the tradeoff there looks like.

The  rearrangement was based on some of the commentary about the value of a lower Manhattan crosstown line, and the desire to get the  off QBL to make room for a  as a way to increase Culver and QBL service in one fell swoop. The  gets an extension via Eliot Av/HHP out to Francis Lewis Blvd, with a connection to QBL at Woodhaven Blvd (which would become an express stop on QBL); that would likely increase QBL loading (which is why the changes on the Jamaica line become so important; they pull a whole bunch of people off QBL down there to free up room for people coming from Fresh Meadows). The continuation as the Myrtle Av line through Montague separates the  from the trunk and lets it do its own thing (which in this case entails hitting an area that only has the ), while providing a direct link between lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn. The shared  stretch from Canal St to 72 St was an idea for providing meaningful crosstown service across lower Manhattan, while also connecting Hell's Kitchen and Chelsea into the subway network properly; it's an idea I've seen proposed for the  before, but in this case it made more sense to set the  up that way. The need for a new Canal St  platform also lets us relocate the transit museum to Canal St so we don't lose it when we reactivate Court St IND.

Finally, the  rearrangement eliminates one of the merges at DeKalb, and replaces the Franklin Av shuttle with something that people are likely to actually use.

The map is here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zhIa6KPRstAdc6lm_hlyskX0SVHM7NPh&usp=sharing, the gory details in text are below:

: Rerouted after Broadway-Lafayette onto the fifth and sixth tracks of the 2 Av/Williamsburg trunk, stops at Pitt St (local, six tracks), Kent St (express, six tracks), Driggs Av(local, six tracks), Marcy Av(express,  tracks swing south). Below Marcy Av the  merges with the  and stops at Flushing Av, Myrtle-Willoughby Avs (connect to ), and Bedford-Nostrand Avs. Past this point, the B swings onto Franklin Av, stopping at Fulton St (connect to ), Park Pl, Eastern Parkway (connect to (3)), and Prospect Park on the local tracks (connect with ) before continuing to Coney Island as the Brighton local.

: Extended via Gun Hill Rd from Norwood-205 St to Bay Plaza, with stops at White Plains Rd (transfer to (5)), Bronxwood Av, Seymour Av (transfer to (5)),  Bartow Av, Edson Av, and Bay Plaza.

(E): Becomes QBL local from Jamaica Center to Chambers St.

(F): Becomes Culver express between Church Av and Bergen St all times except nights; becomes QBL express 179 St-21 St/Queensbridge, rush hours runs express from Kings Highway to Bergen St.

(J) 10 Av/Jamaica local: Starts at 72 St/Columbus Av (connect to (1)(2)(3)), 64-65 Sts, 57 St, 50 St, 42 St, 34 St, 14 St, Christopher/Greenwich Sts, Houston St, Canal/Varick Sts (connect to (1)(A)(C)(E)), Lafayette St(connect to (N)(Q)(R)(W)(6), (M) branches off), Delancey/Essex (six tracks, merge with (B)(P)(U)(Y)), Pitt St (local, six tracks), Kent St (express), Driggs Av(local), Marcy Av(express, (B) tracks swing south), Union Av (local, connect to (G)), Flushing Av (local), Myrtle Av (express,connect to (M)), Kosciuzko St(local), Gates Av(local), Halsey St(local), Chauncey St(local), Broadway Junction (connect to (A)(C)(L)(T)). From there the Jamaica trunk swings onto Jamaica Av, and the J continues at Arlington Av (local), Elton St(local), Logan St(local), Cypress Hills (express), 75 St(local), 85 St(local), Woodhaven Blvd (express), 104 St (local), 111 St(local), 121 St(local), Sutphin-Archer(express, connect to (E)), Jamaica Center(express, connect to (E)). Past Jamaica Center swing onto Merrick Blvd with stops at Liberty Av (local), Brinkerhoff Av (local), Linden Blvd (express), Foch Blvd (local), Baisley Blvd (local), Farmers Blvd (local), Springfield Blvd (express), 223 St (local), and 233 St (express).

(M) 10 Av/Myrtle Av/Horace Harding Expwy local: The only remaining segment of the old (M)  is from Marcy Av to Metropolitan Av; the new  (M) starts at 72 St on the same track pair as the (J), sharing the stops at 72 St/Columbus Av (connect to (1)(2)(3)), 64-65 Sts, 57 St, 50 St, 42 St, 34 St, 14 St, Christopher/Greenwich Sts, Houston St, Canal/Varick Sts (connect to (1)(A)(C)(E)), and Lafayette St(connect to (N)(Q)(R)(W)(6)) before branching off onto the old Nassau St line, serving Chambers St(connect to to (4)(5)(6)), Fulton St(connect to (2)(3)(4)(5)(A)(C)), Broad St, and Court St/Borough Hall (connect to (2)(3)(4)(5)(R)). Past this point the  (M) runs along Myrtle Av, with stops at Jay St (connect to(A)(C)(F)(R)), Ashland Pl, Vanderbilt Av, Classon Av, Union Av(connect to (B)(G)), Throop Av, Broadway(connect to (J)(P)(U)(Y)), Central Av, Knickerbocker Av, Myrtle/Wyckoff Avs(connect with (L)), Seneca Av, Forest Av, Fresh Pond Rd, and Metropolitan Av. Past Metropolitan Av the (M)  runs briefly alongside the NY&A with stops at Juniper Blvd and Eliot Av, before running along Eliot Av with stops at Eliot Av/80 St, Eliot Av/85 St, and then running along Horace Harding with stops at Woodhaven Blvd (connect with (E)(F)(V)(R)), Junction Blvd, 99th St 108 St, College Pt Blvd, Main St, Kissena Blvd, 164 St, Utopia Pkwy, 188 St, 194 St, and Francis Lewis Blvd.

(P): 3 Av/2 Av/Jamaica express, Bay Plaza to 233 St/Merrick Blvd. Stops at Bay Plaza, Edson Av, Bartow Av, Seymour Av (transfer to (5)), Bronxwood Av, White Plains Rd (transfer to (2)(5)), Norwood-205 St (transfer to (D)(T), (D) branches off here to go down the Concourse), Fordham Plaza, E Tremont Av, 163 St, 149 St-3 Av (connect to (2)(5)), 138 St-3 Av(connect to (6)<6>), 125 St, 86 St(connection to (Q)(U)(Y) ), 59 St (connect to (4)(5)(6)(N)(R)(W)), 42 St, 14 St(connect to (L)), Houston St(connect to (B)(F)(V), (T) branches off), Delancey/Essex( (J) merges onto the main local track) Kent Av, Marcy Av( (B) branches off), Myrtle Av(connect to (M)), Broadway Junction (connect to (A)(C)(L)(T)), Cypress Hills, Woodhaven Blvd, Sutphin-Archer(connect with (E)), Jamaica Center(connect with (E)), Linden Blvd, Springfield Blvd, and 233 St/Merrick Blvd.

(Q) Astoria/2 Av local, Broadway/Brighton express: The (Q) starts at Terminal D of LGA, stopping at Terminal B, 92 St, and 82 St before merging onto the local tracks of the four-track trunk line from Astoria Blvd. It then makes local stops at 75 St (connect with (U)), Hazen St, Steinway St, 31 St(connect with (N)(W)(Y)), 21 St(local), Shore Pl (local), 86 St (express, connect with (P)(T)(U)(Y)), 79 St (local), 72 St (local), and then all current  (Q) stops to Prospect Park. At Prospect Park the (Q) stays on the Brighton express tracks and runs to Brighton Beach.

(T): 3 Av/2 Av/Fulton St local, Norwood-205 St to Euclid Av. Stops at Norwood-205 St(express, connect to (D)), Bedford Bk Blvd (local), Fordham Plaza (express), 183 St (local), 180 St (local), E Tremont Av (express), Claremont Pkwy (local), 168-169 Sts (local), 163 St (express), 149 St-3 Av (express, connect to (2)(5)), 144 St (local), 138 St-3 Av(connect to (6)<6>), 125 St (express), 116 St (local), 106 St (local), 96 St(local), 86 St(express, six tracks), 79 St (local, infill station, six tracks), 72 St (local, six tracks), 59 St (connect to (4)(5)(6)(N)(R)(W)), 52 St (local, connect to (E)), 42 St (express), 33 St(local), 23 St(local), 14 St (express, transfer to (L)), St. Mark's Pl (local), Houston St (express, connect to (B)(F)(V)), Grand St(connection to (D)), Chatham Sq, Seaport, Hanover Sq, Court St, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and then all (C) stops to Euclid Av)

(U): Astoria Blvd/2 Av/ Utica Av local, Bell Blvd to Kings Plaza. Stops at Bell Blvd (express), Francis Lewis Blvd(local), Utopia Pkwy(local), 162 St/Crocheron Av (express), 156 St(local), 150 St(local), Main St/Flushing(express, connect to (7)<7>), Shea Stadium (express), 114 St (local), 108 St(local), 100 St(local), 94 St(express), 88 St(local), 82 St(express), 75 St(local, connect to (Q)), Hazen St (local), Steinway St(local), 31 St(express, connect to (N)(W)), 21 St (local), Shore Pl(local), 86 St(express, connection to 2 Av trunk, six tracks), 79 St (local, infill station, six tracks), 72 St (local, six tracks), 59 St (express, transfer passage to 59/Lex), 52 St (local, connect to (E)), 42 St (express), 33 St(local), 23 St(local), 14 St (express, transfer to (L)), St. Mark's Pl (local), Houston St (express, connect to (B)(F)(V), (B) joins trunk on separate track pair), Delancey/Essex (six tracks, merge with (J)), Pitt St (local, six tracks), Kent St (express), Driggs Av(local), Marcy Av(express, (B) tracks swing south), Union Av (local, connect to (G)), Flushing Av (local), Myrtle Av (express,connect to (M)), Halsey St(local), Gates Av(local), Fulton St (connect to (A)(C)(T)), St Marks Av (local), Eastern Pkwy (express, connect to (3)(4)), Empire Blvd (local), Winthrop St(local), Church Av (express), Av D(local), Av H(local, Kings Highway(express), Flatlands Av(local), Av N(local), Flatbush Av(express), and Kings Plaza(express).

(V): Restored Culver local/QBL express. Operates from 179 St to Church Av, express Union Turnpike-21 St/Queensbridge, local otherwise, extended rush hours to Kings Highway to allow peak-direction  <F> express service.

(Y): Astoria Blvd/2 Av/Utica Av express, Bell Blvd to Kings Plaza. Stops at Bell Blvd, 162 St/Crocheron Av, Main St/Flushing(connect to  (7)<7>), Shea Stadium, 94 St/Astoria Bl, 82 St/Astoria Bl, 31 St( connect to (N)(W), transfer to (Q)), 86 St (merge with main 2 Av trunk, connect to (P)(T)), 59 St (transfer passage to 59/Lex), 42 St, 14 St(connect to (L)), Houston St, Marcy Av, Myrtle Av(connect to (M)), Fulton St (connect to  (A)(C)(T)), Eastern Pkwy (connect to (3)(4)), Church Av, Kings Highway, Flatbush Av and Kings Plaza.

Most of the new trackage is four tracks; the exceptions are the three-track line from Norwood-205 St to Bay Plaza, the new (M) line and the (J) north of Delancey-Essex are two tracks (with three tracks along the combined stretch from Canal-Lafayette to 72 St), the (B) reroute is two tracks, and there are two brief spots on the 2 Av trunk (72 St to 86 St in Manhattan and Houston St to Marcy Av) that are six tracks to allow all individual services to run 15+ tph without any bad bottlenecks.

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by engineerboy6561
Fixed line emojis

[Collin]

Wow that is quite the plan.  Basically an IND Second System.  I wonder where the money would come from for it.  I still think there should be no local service going out past Forest Hills on QB.  Many of the people using the Archer stations are already slogging it on the bus for a long time.  They're just going to transfer to the express.

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, Collin said:

Wow that is quite the plan.  Basically an IND Second System.  I wonder where the money would come from for it.  I still think there should be no local service going out past Forest Hills on QB.  Many of the people using the Archer stations are already slogging it on the bus for a long time.  They're just going to transfer to the express.

If that’s an issue, then the solution to the whole Queens travel time issue is to simply extend the subway out past Jamaica. This would allow for buses to intercept the trains sooner, allowing for faster commuting times overall.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 4/22/2020 at 1:54 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

We can already connect the to the Fulton Local tracks. Personally, I don't like the method that Vanshnookenraggen presented in his "Future of the Second Avenue Subway" blog even though that was not the main point of his article. The way I'd do it is by using the bellmouth's just south of Whitehall Street, run it under state street, then turn it to hit Schermehorn Street so that it could connect with the Transit Museum. The reason I prefer connecting the to Fulton as opposed to the (or SAS) is because it allows for better IND-BMT integration. If the and took over WillyB with the   and a second SAS service going down Brighton and 4th Avenue, then you could have the (or a relabled Nassau Service) run from Essex to Bay Ridge.

As for relocating the Transit Museum, its much easier said than done as there likely aren't any suitable places for one. You could build a new one at Avenue C, but that would be a disservice to those in Alphabet City. Might as well put up live exhibits where ever possible. 

But with the Montague Tunnel being used far below its capacity, MTA officials will easily object to building another parallel tunnel between Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn Heights for the  or . I recall seeing a post proposing a track connection between the  south of DeKalb Avenue and the  between Hoyt and Lafayette. I tried to find it in this thread and do a search, but so far I haven’t found it. Now, if making a connection from the  to the  in the Flatbush/Fulton area is feasible, then maybe   we ought to consider it. However, given that Lafayette Ave is a local stop and the next Fulton St express stop is three stops away at Nostrand Avenue, we would end up having a situation similar to QBL, where Roosevelt Avenue is the last transfer point between the  and the  and  - and would be the last transfer point between all express and local service if QBL is deinterlined. Likewise on Fulton, Nostrand would be the last transfer point between the  on the express and the  or  on the local. But that really shouldn’t be a deal breaker, much like proponents of deinterlining QBL don’t see having Roosevelt as the last transfer point as a deal breaker. 

17 hours ago, Collin said:

I wonder if there's any way within the existing infrastructure to allow more  service without significant reductions to local service.  I think the current limiting factor for the  is capacity on the Williamsburg Bridge, so that would leave capacity available on the QB and 6th Ave local tracks to add more service.  I just wonder how much capacity is left, both without CBTC, and when CBTC is installed, and if it would be enough to add another 6th Avenue local route that ran to Church Avenue.  This would greatly improve service south of Church because most if not all rush hour trains would go express, and maybe even allow for reverse peak or mid day express service.  Customers at local stations north of Church would have trains that were less crowded since they didn't pick up passengers all the way from Stillwell.

The best way to allow more  trains within the existing infrastructure, while keeping the current  service, would be to have a third 6th Avenue service on Queens Blvd, either under a fully or partially deinterlined Queens Blvd line. The third 6th Avenue service would be replacing the  either way. If you want to to keep the  on QB, then you’d have to have the  revert back to the separate  and  services and then extend the  to Church.

The biggest drawback with three 6th Ave QBL services is that you have to split 30 tph three ways (not necessarily equally), and there would likely be a fair amount of merging between all three services. With a deinterlined QBL, I’d run the  local to/from 71st and the  express up to 71st. After 71st, the  would then run local to 179, the  express to 179 and the  to JC. However this would result in a slight loss of service to JC, as the current  runs 12 tph and the  wouldn’t be able to run more than 10. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue
Elaborating on QBL service plans

[engineerboy6561]

3 hours ago, Collin said:

Wow that is quite the plan.  Basically an IND Second System.  I wonder where the money would come from for it.  I still think there should be no local service going out past Forest Hills on QB.  Many of the people using the Archer stations are already slogging it on the bus for a long time.  They're just going to transfer to the express.

My argument about that is that with subway service extended beyond Flushing and Jamaica we can look at deemphasizing Jamaica and Flushing in the Queens bus network. As an example, Hillside Av coming into Jamaica carries the Q1, Q2, Q3, Q17, Q36, Q43, Q76 and Q77. There's no need to have all of these buses come all the way into Jamaica once there's subway service out to Hillside/Springfield and Merrick/233 St. You can leave the Q43 as the Hillside Av bus, but you could eliminate the Q2 and have the Q17 take over the Q2 route south of Hillside Av, and you could do the same thing with the Q76 and Q77 (eliminate the Q77 and extend the Q76 down to 147 Av) with no actual change to Q76 runtime. The Q36 could just run full time from Little Neck Parkway to 212 St/Hillside Av and the Q1 Springfield and Braddock segments could be replaced by the Q88. On Merrick, the Q4 could continue west on Linden to Rockaway Blvd and end at Rockaway Blvd train station, and most people wouldn't mind as much because they'd still be connecting to the trains.

Edited April 26, 2020 by engineerboy6561

[EvilMonologue]

2 minutes ago, engineerboy6561 said:

My argument about that is that with subway service extended beyond Flushing and Jamaica we can look at deemphasizing Jamaica and Flushing in the Queens bus network. As an example, Hillside Av coming into Jamaica carries the Q1, Q2, Q3, Q17, Q36, Q43, Q76 and Q77. There's no need to have all of these buses come all the way into Jamaica once there's subway service out to Hillside/Springfield and Merrick/233 St. You can leave the Q43 as the Hillside Av bus, but you could eliminate the Q2 and have the Q17 take over the Q2 route south of Hillside Av, and you could do the same thing with the Q76 and Q77 (eliminate the Q77 and extend the Q76 down to 147 Av) with no actual change to Q76 runtime. The Q36 could just run full time from Little Neck Parkway to 212 St/Hillside Av and the Q1 could be replaced by the Q88. On Merrick, the Q4 could continue west on Linden to Rockaway Blvd and end at Rockaway Blvd train station, and most people wouldn't mind as much because they'd still be connecting to the trains.

Is there a reason you chose to extend the M over the LIE as opposed to extending the QBL local? Just thinking that it's likely most people would transfer to QBL to get to Manhattan faster, and even if they wanted to go to lower Manhattan and stay on the local, it's just about the same number of stations. It might make sense to extend the QBL local out rather than extend the M because of this. Just a thought.

[engineerboy6561]

15 minutes ago, EvilMonologue said:

Is there a reason you chose to extend the M over the LIE as opposed to extending the QBL local? Just thinking that it's likely most people would transfer to QBL to get to Manhattan faster, and even if they wanted to go to lower Manhattan and stay on the local, it's just about the same number of stations. It might make sense to extend the QBL local out rather than extend the M because of this. Just a thought.

I picked the  because it was right there (because Middle Village is kind of a cruddy spot to end a subway line, and looping it back for a connection at Woodhaven so that people trying to go into Midtown from Middle Village have other options made sense to me. Once I did that it seemed to make more sense to just keep going with the  than try to add another interlocking at Woodhaven to split a local off. You are right that in this setup the  really tends to have two different ridership zones, where a big chunk of the people get off at Woodhaven to hop the QBL, probably some northbound ridership from Middle Village/Ridgewood to QBL. and then ridership from Ridgewood southwest into Downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan. I'm not sure there's a good way around that, but I also wanted to have the option to run local service all the way down to 179 St (potentially 40tph to 179 St if the  turns at 179 and then the  share a terminal at Springfield) because I was worried about starving QBL.

Edited April 26, 2020 by engineerboy6561

[engineerboy6561]

4 hours ago, EvilMonologue said:

Is there a reason you chose to extend the M over the LIE as opposed to extending the QBL local? Just thinking that it's likely most people would transfer to QBL to get to Manhattan faster, and even if they wanted to go to lower Manhattan and stay on the local, it's just about the same number of stations. It might make sense to extend the QBL local out rather than extend the M because of this. Just a thought.

A more specific answer would depend on exactly how many tph Jamaica and Forest Hills need (and will need in the future). If Jamaica only needs 70 tph and Forest Hills only needs 40,then you can send the  out to Francis Lewis from Woodhaven, the  to Jamaica Center, and the  up Hillside; if they need 75 and 45 then you can send the  to Francis Lewis (but that runs into issues around making the  ungodly long, since to 179 St it would be about two hours max, and if you pull it off at Woodhaven and send it to Francis Lewis it would probably wind up running 2:15-2:20); if you need more than that and you still really want to shed a service off QBL at Woodhaven you'd need to cut Utica back to a single 15tph line so you can flow 45 tph into Jamaica via the new Williamsburg/Jamaica Av trunk. I'd build the  with track connections to QBL so that you could arrange the service patterns that way if you chose, but for now I figured throwing 85tph at Jamaica and preserving 30tph down Utica without doing something wild like swinging the  north from Euclid to run under Atlantic Av would be a good starting point.

Edited April 26, 2020 by engineerboy6561

[Lex]

4 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

My argument about that is that with subway service extended beyond Flushing and Jamaica we can look at deemphasizing Jamaica and Flushing in the Queens bus network. As an example, Hillside Av coming into Jamaica carries the Q1, Q2, Q3, Q17, Q36, Q43, Q76 and Q77. There's no need to have all of these buses come all the way into Jamaica once there's subway service out to Hillside/Springfield and Merrick/233 St. You can leave the Q43 as the Hillside Av bus, but you could eliminate the Q2 and have the Q17 take over the Q2 route south of Hillside Av, and you could do the same thing with the Q76 and Q77 (eliminate the Q77 and extend the Q76 down to 147 Av) with no actual change to Q76 runtime. The Q36 could just run full time from Little Neck Parkway to 212 St/Hillside Av and the Q1 Springfield and Braddock segments could be replaced by the Q88. On Merrick, the Q4 could continue west on Linden to Rockaway Blvd and end at Rockaway Blvd train station, and most people wouldn't mind as much because they'd still be connecting to the trains.

Because no one rides to Jamaica/Flushing for the sake of reaching Jamaica/Flushing...

[engineerboy6561]

31 minutes ago, Lex said:

Because no one rides to Jamaica/Flushing for the sake of reaching Jamaica/Flushing...

Fair point; those were just some quick (~5 minutes while I was busy) thoughts; I'm not sure what data exists to show how many people from different areas travel to Jamaica and Flushing and don't hop trains into Manhattan. If this got built it would be worth doing a proper bus study of commuters through those hubs to try to get a sense of how many are going to those places vs through them on the way to Manhattan. I suspect the current bus densities into Jamaica would likely be able to drop by a fair amount (but probably not by the 80-90% that my above post implies), but I also don't spend enough time moving through Jamaica to have a sense of how a revised southeastern Queens bus network would look and would love to learn more.

Flushing is more complicated because you don't have more than two or three lines coming in off a given corridor, and it makes sense to run into Flushing along most of those corridors; for Jamaica seeing eight different bus lines on a single street just popped out to me as odd (and probably overkill if there was train service along Hillside to Springfield).

Edited April 26, 2020 by engineerboy6561