Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Jova42R]

5 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Gotcha. I think we're on the same page; I don't think there is a way to get the subway off of Second (either to Third, or east to Alphabet City). The latter has been studied and dismissed in every single iteration of the project since the '70s. 

I get your pessimism, but this is also the proposals thread, a place where people are specifically supposed to vent ideas that will most likely never happen. Personally rather than the lower half of Second Avenue I think we should just link East Side Access to Atlantic via Downtown; the entire reason SAS Phase III and IV even makes sense is because ESA is about to dump people into GCT with only one overcrowded train line to get downtown, but if that's the problem then a better solution would be to bring those trains downtown rather than make people transfer for no reason.

@CenSin @Trainmaster5 @LaGuardia Link N Tra: My plan for Lower SAS:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&hl=en&mid=1bjT60XQdK8kYkqtIRZUKKzkehRL0-vin&ll=40.637561294513105%2C-73.90227916683934&z=11

It uses 65 St to get to 3rd, utilizing 66th's wideness, then uses 37th to get back to the waterfront, utilizing the tunnel entrance. It then goes down the FDR to Av C, and hits Two Bridges before going down South St to Hanover Sq. There are TRACK connections with the  to provide operational flexibility, and Tisch Hospital is a 3-track short-turn terminal. In addition, Houston St will have a pair of inner tracks connecting to the  inner tracks, and provisions for connections to the .

Thoughts?

[Trainmaster5]

33 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Gotcha. I think we're on the same page; I don't think there is a way to get the subway off of Second (either to Third, or east to Alphabet City). The latter has been studied and dismissed in every single iteration of the project since the '70s. 

I get your pessimism, but this is also the proposals thread, a place where people are specifically supposed to vent ideas that will most likely never happen. Personally rather than the lower half of Second Avenue I think we should just link East Side Access to Atlantic via Downtown; the entire reason SAS Phase III and IV even makes sense is because ESA is about to dump people into GCT with only one overcrowded train line to get downtown, but if that's the problem then a better solution would be to bring those trains downtown rather than make people transfer for no reason.

Thanks for your reply.  I realize that we're posting in the proposals thread. 😀. It's just that I've been waiting at Utica and Church Avenues for 60 years and my train still hasn't come.  People are looking at me in a very strange way but I know that they passed a bond issue in the early 50s to build my line.  Maybe they lied to me?  Carry on. 

[Union Tpke]

On 5/30/2020 at 5:42 PM, CenSin said:

The topology may be correct, but keep in mind the track map is not 100% accurate with regards to scaling and relative positioning of the elements. Take the Broadway switches north of 34 Street–Herald Square for example. Those are a little further north than the diagram would lead one to believe. The representation of the curves and switches around the Coney Island area are also somewhat distorted. That switch connecting the northbound West End () track to the yard from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue a left-handed switch and not a right-handed switch as depicted in the diagram.

You can email him with corrections. I have emailed him things that he has corrected.

[bobtehpanda]

Question: does anyone know what the positions of the 11 St connection and 63 St Line are where they pass over each other?

I wonder how hard it'd be to punch through a pair of tracks with flat junctions to both. It'd allow relatively pain free operation from 6th to Queens Plaza, which would resolve some issues I have with QBL deinterlining.

[EvilMonologue]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Question: does anyone know what the positions of the 11 St connection and 63 St Line are where they pass over each other?

I wonder how hard it'd be to punch through a pair of tracks with flat junctions to both. It'd allow relatively pain free operation from 6th to Queens Plaza, which would resolve some issues I have with QBL deinterlining.

What kind of service are you thinking of? The  via 63rd, then South to the 11th St cut, connecting to Queens Plaza and then using the Queens Blvd local tracks?

[Lex]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Question: does anyone know what the positions of the 11 St connection and 63 St Line are where they pass over each other?

They don't.

[mrsman]

6 hours ago, Lex said:

They don't.

 

7 hours ago, EvilMonologue said:

What kind of service are you thinking of? The  via 63rd, then South to the 11th St cut, connecting to Queens Plaza and then using the Queens Blvd local tracks?

They don't cross each other.  But if one were to build a short tunnel connecting the 63rd St tunnel to the 11th St cut, you have the potential of routing all QBL expresses to 53rd street and all QBL locals to 63rd street, while maintaining that all QBL trains service Queens Plaza.  This will mean that all the local stations on the QBL between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza will have direct access to 63rd and cross-platform access to 53rd, on a deinterlined system, without the need to go the reverse direction to Roosevelt.

Among other ideas, Nerdy Nel imagines such a possibility on the bottom of this page.  (Search for 11th Street)

https://nerdynel.me/2019/02/13/nytip103bwayqb/

 

 

 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

18 hours ago, EvilMonologue said:

What kind of service are you thinking of? The  via 63rd, then South to the 11th St cut, connecting to Queens Plaza and then using the Queens Blvd local tracks?

Yes, maybe something like that. But it would require the  to replace the  as the main Queens Blvd Local. Maybe have a station at Queensboro Plaza for a connection with the  since the connecting tracks will pass under Queensboro Plaza. 

10 hours ago, mrsman said:

They don't cross each other.  But if one were to build a short tunnel connecting the 63rd St tunnel to the 11th St cut, you have the potential of routing all QBL expresses to 53rd street and all QBL locals to 63rd street, while maintaining that all QBL trains service Queens Plaza.  This will mean that all the local stations on the QBL between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza will have direct access to 63rd and cross-platform access to 53rd, on a deinterlined system, without the need to go the reverse direction to Roosevelt.

Among other ideas, Nerdy Nel imagines such a possibility on the bottom of this page.  (Search for 11th Street)

https://nerdynel.me/2019/02/13/nytip103bwayqb/

I like it. It solves the problem with having the  and  run as the Queens Blvd locals, specifically having Roosevelt Avenue as the last southbound transfer point between local and express. And the , which is limited to eight 60-foot cars per train, can stay local. We’ve already gotten away with 8-car  local trains for the past 10 years, so we know what to expect. But I doubt you can get away with running the  and  express and the  local because you would have to run the  with its short trains either to 179th or Jamaica Center. And that won’t sit well with the many riders who connect to the subway at JC or 179th, since both of those stations are major subway-to-bus transfer points. Having the  and  run local via a new connection between Queens Plaza and Queensbridge, while running the  and another 8th Avenue service - called the ,  or a rerouted  train - solves that.

[Bklyn Bound 2 Local]

Revised  v2.0

Stops:

1. LaGuardia Airport  
2. Ditmars Blvd  
3. Astoria Blvd  
4. 21 St - Queensbridge
5. Roosevelt Island  
6. Lexington Av - 63 St  walk to  
7. 57 St  
8. 47 - 50 St
9. 42 St  
10. 34 St  
11. W 4 St  
12. Chambers St  
13. Bway - Nassau  
14. Jay St  
15. Bway - ENY  
16. JFK Airport

[Union Tpke]

1 hour ago, Bklyn Bound 2 Local said:

Revised  v2.0

Stops:

1. LaGuardia Airport  
2. Ditmars Blvd  
3. Astoria Blvd  
4. 21 St - Queensbridge
5. Roosevelt Island  
6. Lexington Av - 63 St  walk to  
7. 57 St  
8. 47 - 50 St
9. 42 St  
10. 34 St  
11. W 4 St  
12. Chambers St  
13. Bway - Nassau  
14. Jay St  
15. Bway - ENY  
16. JFK Airport

When you have a few hours to kill between getting off a flight at LGA and taking a flight from JFK home.

[Bklyn Bound 2 Local]

12 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

When you have a few hours to kill between getting off a flight at LGA and taking a flight from JFK home.

Lol, I forgot to mention the entire route is not meant to be ridden, it's so that you can get into midtown from either airport. But a full ride could be a fun experience, and gain a lot of subscribers on Youtube

[LGA Link N Train]

Not sure if this would count as a subway proposal but how about using the PATH to serve Alphabet City? 

It could turn on 9th Street as there's a provision there for the PATH to turn. The stops could be the following:

- Astor Place (connection with the and  

- 2nd or 1st Avenue. 

- Avenue B (Could be a 3 or 4 track Platform for a Brooklyn extension)

(Swing Down Avenue C)

- 6th Street?

- Houston Street

- Grand Street

- East Broadway (connection to the ) and terminate. 

The Sole purpose of this extension is to serve the Alphabet City because its clear that SAS won't be able to do it)

[Lex]

5 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Not sure if this would count as a subway proposal but how about using the PATH to serve Alphabet City? 

It could turn on 9th Street as there's a provision there for the PATH to turn. The stops could be the following:

- Astor Place (connection with the and  

- 2nd or 1st Avenue. 

- Avenue B (Could be a 3 or 4 track Platform for a Brooklyn extension)

(Swing Down Avenue C)

- 6th Street?

- Houston Street

- Grand Street

- East Broadway (connection to the ) and terminate. 

The Sole purpose of this extension is to serve the Alphabet City because its clear that SAS won't be able to do it)

That's a pathetic excuse for a stand-in.

If we were looking at (significant) potential ridership between there and, say, Hoboken, maybe, but I honestly doubt it's enough to warrant the expense (and I'm talking about the prices we see in most cities).

[EvilMonologue]

6 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Not sure if this would count as a subway proposal but how about using the PATH to serve Alphabet City? 

It could turn on 9th Street as there's a provision there for the PATH to turn. The stops could be the following:

- Astor Place (connection with the and  

- 2nd or 1st Avenue. 

- Avenue B (Could be a 3 or 4 track Platform for a Brooklyn extension)

(Swing Down Avenue C)

- 6th Street?

- Houston Street

- Grand Street

- East Broadway (connection to the ) and terminate. 

The Sole purpose of this extension is to serve the Alphabet City because its clear that SAS won't be able to do it)

You'd also probably have most PATH riders upset because now the train doesn't go where most of the jobs are

[R10 2952]

8 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Not sure if this would count as a subway proposal but how about using the PATH to serve Alphabet City? 

It could turn on 9th Street as there's a provision there for the PATH to turn. The stops could be the following:

- Astor Place (connection with the and  

- 2nd or 1st Avenue. 

- Avenue B (Could be a 3 or 4 track Platform for a Brooklyn extension)

(Swing Down Avenue C)

- 6th Street?

- Houston Street

- Grand Street

- East Broadway (connection to the ) and terminate. 

The Sole purpose of this extension is to serve the Alphabet City because its clear that SAS won't be able to do it)

Maybe not going all the way down Avenue C, but I could certainly see a small PATH branch along 8th/SaintMark's terminating at Tompkins Square; would give PATH riders a third terminal in the city, anyway.

Edited June 12, 2020 by R10 2952

[Union Tpke]

On 6/11/2020 at 1:47 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Not sure if this would count as a subway proposal but how about using the PATH to serve Alphabet City? 

It could turn on 9th Street as there's a provision there for the PATH to turn. The stops could be the following:

- Astor Place (connection with the and  

- 2nd or 1st Avenue. 

- Avenue B (Could be a 3 or 4 track Platform for a Brooklyn extension)

(Swing Down Avenue C)

- 6th Street?

- Houston Street

- Grand Street

- East Broadway (connection to the ) and terminate. 

The Sole purpose of this extension is to serve the Alphabet City because its clear that SAS won't be able to do it)

There is no need for that. You want an at-grade junction at 9th Street that wrecks PATH capacity and limits TPH to 33rd Street? Not a good idea.

[Bklyn Bound 2 Local]

Brooklyn Loop Labeled as .

• Uses pre-Chrystie Street Nassau Loop Tracks

Stops starting at top counter-clockwise:

1. Chambers St St
2. DeKalb Avenue
3. Atlantic Avenue - Barclays 
4. 7 Av  
5. Prospect Park
6. Church Av  
7. Newkirk Plaza  
8. Kings Hwy  
9. Sheepshead Bay  
10. Brighton Beach  
11. Ocean Parkway  
12. West 8 St
13. Coney Island
14. Bay Pkwy
15. 8 Av
16. 59 St  
17. 36 St
18. Atlantic Avenue - Pacific
19. DeKalb Avenue
20. Lawrence St
21. Court St
22. Broad St  
23. Fulton St

[bobtehpanda]

On 6/11/2020 at 10:47 AM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Not sure if this would count as a subway proposal but how about using the PATH to serve Alphabet City? 

It could turn on 9th Street as there's a provision there for the PATH to turn. The stops could be the following:

- Astor Place (connection with the and  

- 2nd or 1st Avenue. 

- Avenue B (Could be a 3 or 4 track Platform for a Brooklyn extension)

(Swing Down Avenue C)

- 6th Street?

- Houston Street

- Grand Street

- East Broadway (connection to the ) and terminate. 

The Sole purpose of this extension is to serve the Alphabet City because its clear that SAS won't be able to do it)

PATH should spend whatever money it doesn't have, on a 50th or 57th St crosstown for a third Hudson crossing. Oh, and a Bergenline subway while they're at it.

Who in Jersey is looking to go to Alphabet City? The connections to the subway are also pretty weak. 

Realistically, the LES should be served by a streetcar or light rail that runs a C-shape route roughly combining the M14 and M9.

[engineerboy6561]

6 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

PATH should spend whatever money it doesn't have, on a 50th or 57th St crosstown for a third Hudson crossing. Oh, and a Bergenline subway while they're at it.

Who in Jersey is looking to go to Alphabet City? The connections to the subway are also pretty weak. 

Realistically, the LES should be served by a streetcar or light rail that runs a C-shape route roughly combining the M14 and M9.

Agreed; honestly if PATH had infinite money I'd suggest a Bergenline Av/JFK Blvd trunk from Nungessers to JSQ, with a 57 St connection; you'd hit the densest parts of northern NJ, and a 57 St crosstown would let you connect directly to the  all directly.

[engineerboy6561]

1 hour ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Agreed; honestly if PATH had infinite money I'd suggest a Bergenline Av/JFK Blvd trunk from Nungessers to JSQ, with a 57 St connection; you'd hit the densest parts of northern NJ, and a 57 St crosstown would let you connect directly to the  all directly.

@bobtehpanda Here's a map I threw together of what that might look like:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/view?mid=1OJS51GGPt25EraCnvhBvWy3bEwNK0jhK&ll=40.746660285820255%2C-74.03709978970096&z=13

I chose to send it up JFK below 48 St because that's about a half mile from the HBLR, and so that way there's not too much duplication (PATH to 57 St would serve as an alternative to HBLR to bus to PABT), and JFK is fairly heavily trafficked (NJT buses and jitneys alike); above 48 St Bergenline Av is a huge corridor; Union City, West New York, Guttenberg, and even Fairview are dense enough to support subway service (as are JC and Hoboken); I just picked Nungessers as a stopping point because it's already a bus hub. It also would really be worth getting Hoboken something, since the 126 runs something like 30bph during rush, and they're all full; extending WTC-HOB service to 48 St via Washington St/Park Av would do it.

 

The resulting expansion would get you 15tph JSQ-57 St, 15 tph Nungessers-57 St, and 8 tph 48 St-WTC, which would take huge loads off the 126, 156, 159 and the jitneys.

Edited June 15, 2020 by engineerboy6561

[LGA Link N Train]

Hmmm. Seeing that the PATH to Alphabet City idea wasn’t a good one, I’ll disregard it due to the problems that you all stated that my idea had. 
 

14 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

@bobtehpanda Here's a map I threw together of what that might look like:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/view?mid=1OJS51GGPt25EraCnvhBvWy3bEwNK0jhK&ll=40.746660285820255%2C-74.03709978970096&z=13

I chose to send it up JFK below 48 St because that's about a half mile from the HBLR, and so that way there's not too much duplication (PATH to 57 St would serve as an alternative to HBLR to bus to PABT), and JFK is fairly heavily trafficked (NJT buses and jitneys alike); above 48 St Bergenline Av is a huge corridor; Union City, West New York, Guttenberg, and even Fairview are dense enough to support subway service (as are JC and Hoboken); I just picked Nungessers as a stopping point because it's already a bus hub. It also would really be worth getting Hoboken something, since the 126 runs something like 30bph during rush, and they're all full; extending WTC-HOB service to 48 St via Washington St/Park Av would do it.

 

The resulting expansion would get you 15tph JSQ-57 St, 15 tph Nungessers-57 St, and 8 tph 48 St-WTC, which would take huge loads off the 126, 156, 159 and the jitneys.

This is actually a pretty good way to better serve NJ, though I’m curious as to why you chose 57th Street over 50th or 48th. Could it be that 57th happens to be a major corridor in Manhattan and that it also has the potential to extend the PATH out into Queens? 

[engineerboy6561]

55 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Hmmm. Seeing that the PATH to Alphabet City idea wasn’t a good one, I’ll disregard it due to the problems that you all stated that my idea had. 
 

This is actually a pretty good way to better serve NJ, though I’m curious as to why you chose 57th Street over 50th or 48th. Could it be that 57th happens to be a major corridor in Manhattan and that it also has the potential to extend the PATH out into Queens? 

Yup; that's basically it. 57 St misses the  but lets me hit the ; it lets me basically serve every major corridor in Manhattan. I wasn't really thinking of bringing the PATH to Queens (unless it were actually integrated with NYC subway), but that might be an option if we had fare integration.

[EvilMonologue]

2 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Yup; that's basically it. 57 St misses the  but lets me hit the ; it lets me basically serve every major corridor in Manhattan. I wasn't really thinking of bringing the PATH to Queens (unless it were actually integrated with NYC subway), but that might be an option if we had fare integration.

It might be better to have 57th St as a separate line connecting NJ, Manhatthan, and Queens, rather than having Bergenline/JFK be split up into North and South sections feeding into 57th St. I'd imagine having a continuous line would be in high demand.

[engineerboy6561]

1 hour ago, EvilMonologue said:

It might be better to have 57th St as a separate line connecting NJ, Manhatthan, and Queens, rather than having Bergenline/JFK be split up into North and South sections feeding into 57th St. I'd imagine having a continuous line would be in high demand.

True; my thought process was 15tph JSQ-57 St/2 Av, 15tph Nungessers-57 St/2 Av, and then 15tph Nungessers-JSQ, with extension options to Fort Lee and Newark (eventually giving 15tph Ft Lee-Newark Penn via the Ironbound, 15tph Ft Lee-57 St/2 Av, and 15 tph Newark Penn-57 St/2 Av via the Ironbound after the extension).

If I had infinite cash and a crayon I'd run a four-track trunk from Anderson/Columbia Avs to Newark Penn Station (mostly because that's the region where the population densities are high enough to support something of that size), then branch out on either end of the trunk to serve less dense areas (allowing for 30tph into Manhattan via 57 St, 45 through tph within NJ, and taking large loads off the 1 and 25 buses as well as the lines mentioned above. It would basically be a second system for the PATH.

Edited June 15, 2020 by engineerboy6561

[Around the Horn]

I especially like the idea of extending the 57th Street line to Newark via the Ironbound.