Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Bay Ridge Express]

5 hours ago, Armandito said:

If the ever comes to life, what kind of subway cars would it use as rolling stock and which yard would it be based at?

Depends on when it will actually get introduced. Could be 5 years, 10... we never know. We don't know what types of subway cars will be manufactured in the future, and we also don't even know how the whole CBTC swap will play out yet. I wouldn't speculate about it now.

4 hours ago, Bklyn Bound 2 Local said:

My line extension:

I'd either do what @Armandito said, or at that point, have it terminate with a connection to the  (though without sharing the same tracks). Interconnected tracks could also lead to room for potential route swaps.

[Armandito]

How's this for a new subway line to Whitestone? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1h0Q4cPzuGMCyrTqZiUQQ57lA9yeWhNYI&ll=40.76973725716101%2C-73.9411849956531&z=13

If built, the stations along its westernmost segment would lie underneath the existing Central Park West corridor with non-revenue tracks connecting to the  at Columbus Circle (the terminal).

[engineerboy6561]

2 hours ago, Armandito said:

How's this for a new subway line to Whitestone? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1h0Q4cPzuGMCyrTqZiUQQ57lA9yeWhNYI&ll=40.76973725716101%2C-73.9411849956531&z=13

If built, the stations along its westernmost segment would lie underneath the existing Central Park West corridor with non-revenue tracks connecting to the  at Columbus Circle (the terminal).

It's not a bad idea to run something along Astoria Blvd to Flushing to relieve the , and Whitestone would be an interesting offshoot from that. I don't think trying to put a third underpinned level under CPW is a reasonable idea though; it would make more sense to integrate that in with 2 Av by way of the . I threw out a 2 Av proposal a while back that included an Astoria Blvd corridor, a replaced Jamaica El, and a new line up 3 Av in the Bronx; providing a Whitestone connection off of that would probably work pretty well, as people heading to Midtown could just transfer to the . The proposal is here: https://www.nyctransitforums.com/topic/48571-department-of-subways-proposalsideas/page/386/?tab=comments#comment-1066357

 

[Armandito]

13 minutes ago, engineerboy6561 said:

I don't think trying to put a third underpinned level under CPW is a reasonable idea though

Does it have to do with construction costs or something else related to that?

[Armandito]

@engineerboy6561 After looking at your proposal, I decided to revise my map by rerouting the line from Astoria Boulevard and 86th Street to Northern Boulevard and 34th Street. The segment within LIC would run underneath the existing QBL with lower-level stops at 36th Street, Queens Plaza, and Court Square. I also plan to establish a new train yard at a largely vacant area near the Whitestone Expressway close to where the NY Tines has their building. A non-revenue track connection to the QBL is planned as well.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Armandito

[engineerboy6561]

2 hours ago, Armandito said:

@engineerboy6561 After looking at your proposal, I decided to revise my map by rerouting the line from Astoria Boulevard and 86th Street to Northern Boulevard and 34th Street. The segment within LIC would run underneath the existing QBL with lower-level stops at 36th Street, Queens Plaza, and Court Square. I also plan to establish a new train yard at a largely vacant area near the Whitestone Expressway close to where the NY Tines has their building. A non-revenue track connection to the QBL is planned as well.

Interesting; I'm not sure that's the best idea, though; you still have a single-ended line with no connections to the rest of the system (which I'm not a fan of doing).

[Armandito]

21 minutes ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Interesting; I'm not sure that's the best idea, though; you still have a single-ended line with no connections to the rest of the system (which I'm not a fan of doing).

The Canarsie and Flushing lines have similar issues, too.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

14 hours ago, Armandito said:

@engineerboy6561 After looking at your proposal, I decided to revise my map by rerouting the line from Astoria Boulevard and 86th Street to Northern Boulevard and 34th Street. The segment within LIC would run underneath the existing QBL with lower-level stops at 36th Street, Queens Plaza, and Court Square. I also plan to establish a new train yard at a largely vacant area near the Whitestone Expressway close to where the NY Tines has their building. A non-revenue track connection to the QBL is planned as well.

As someone who lives in Whitestone and hates sitting in heavy traffic along the LIE, GCP, BQE, 6th Avenue and the crosstown streets in Manhattan - all routes taken by the QM20 express bus - I would welcome such a line with open arms (though given circumstances pre- and post-Covid, I probably won’t see it in my lifetime). It’s better that you routed it to 34th St since that’s a much more popular destination than Columbus Circle. By going along 34th, fewer people would need to transfer and you don’t have to underpin the existing CPW line, like in your original proposal.

11 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Interesting; I'm not sure that's the best idea, though; you still have a single-ended line with no connections to the rest of the system (which I'm not a fan of doing).

Given the heavy Midtown car traffic that - unfortunately - seems to be making a comeback, we certainly could use more crosstown subway lines. A 34th St crosstown would have transfers to every north-south subway route, save the  and  trains. I get that having no physical connection to the rest of the system makes it harder to move equipment around. It does allow trains to run more frequently, though. He did say there would be a non-revenue connection to the QBL, though I would like to see a map to see where that would go. That would have to be the place where equipment is moved on and off the line to other lines in the system. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Armandito]

34 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

He did say there would be a non-revenue connection to the QBL, though I would need to see a map to see where that would go. 

There would be a flying junction at the location where the Whitestone Line crosses the QBL (Northern Boulevard and Broadway where the and trains stop) with a pair of tracks curving east toward the Jamaica Yard onto the local tracks.

By the way, how do I modify those track maps from nycsubway.org so I could add in that connection myself?

Edited July 28, 2020 by Armandito

[T to Dyre Avenue]

16 minutes ago, Armandito said:

There would be a flying junction at the location where the Whitestone Line crosses the QBL (Northern Boulevard and Broadway where the and trains stop) with a pair of tracks curving east toward the Jamaica Yard onto the local tracks.

By the way, how do I modify those track maps from NY subway.org so I could add in that connection myself?

Ah ok, I see. It does seem like there would be quite a bit of underpinning of the QBL from Queens Plaza to Northern Blvd/Broadway as well as under the  at Court Sq.

[engineerboy6561]

4 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

As someone who lives in Whitestone and hates sitting in heavy traffic along the LIE, GCP, BQE, 6th Avenue and the crosstown streets in Manhattan - all routes taken by the QM20 express bus - I would welcome such a line with open arms (though given circumstances pre- and post-Covid, I probably won’t see it in my lifetime). It’s better that you routed it to 34th St since that’s a much more popular destination than Columbus Circle. By going along 34th, fewer people would need to transfer and you don’t have to underpin the existing CPW line, like in your original proposal.

Given the heavy Midtown car traffic that -unfortunately - seems to be making a comeback, we certainly could use more crosstown subway lines. A 34th St crosstown would have transfers to every north-south subway route, save the  and  trains. I get that having no physical connection to the rest of the system makes it harder to move equipment around. He did say there would be a non-revenue connection to the QBL, though I would need to see a map to see where that would go. 

That's more than fair; the only other concern I have would be underpinning all the regional rail infrastructure along 34 St, but that might be doable since most of that is concentrated between 31 and 33 Sts. I'd be down for doing this, and then moving the 2 Av Second System Queens lines back to Astoria Bl/86 St so that basically all of northern Queens west of Flushing has easy subway access.

[Armandito]

11 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Ah ok, I see. It does seem like there would be quite a bit of underpinning of the QBL from Queens Plaza to Northern Blvd/Broadway as well as under the  at Court Sq.

Along the express segment of the and on Northern Boulevard the Whitestone tracks would be located at the same depth in a 4-track layout, with the and nonstop and the latter parallel to them on the sides. 36th Street and Queens Plaza would both have side platforms located below the existing stations while Court Square would be an island platform beneath the level.

(It would still be helpful if someone knew how to create their own track maps for me to show these blueprints visually.)

[engineerboy6561]

49 minutes ago, Armandito said:

Along the express segment of the and on Northern Boulevard the Whitestone tracks would be located at the same depth in a 4-track layout, with the and nonstop and the latter parallel to them on the sides. 36th Street and Queens Plaza would both have side platforms located below the existing stations while Court Square would be an island platform beneath the level.

(It would still be helpful if someone knew how to create their own track maps for me to show these blueprints visually.)

I could try to throw something together in Illustrator tonight and see where we get; I'm inclined to do that to some of my own plans as well

[Union Tpke]

2 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

As someone who lives in Whitestone and hates sitting in heavy traffic along the LIE, GCP, BQE, 6th Avenue and the crosstown streets in Manhattan - all routes taken by the QM20 express bus - I would welcome such a line with open arms (though given circumstances pre- and post-Covid, I probably won’t see it in my lifetime). It’s better that you routed it to 34th St since that’s a much more popular destination than Columbus Circle. By going along 34th, fewer people would need to transfer and you don’t have to underpin the existing CPW line, like in your original proposal.

Given the heavy Midtown car traffic that - unfortunately - seems to be making a comeback, we certainly could use more crosstown subway lines. A 34th St crosstown would have transfers to every north-south subway route, save the  and  trains. I get that having no physical connection to the rest of the system makes it harder to move equipment around. It does allow trains to run more frequently, though. He did say there would be a non-revenue connection to the QBL, though I would like to see a map to see where that would go. That would have to be the place where equipment is moved on and off the line to other lines in the system. 

There is no need to build crosstown subways in Manhattan when we can just ban cars on streets and have busways like 14th Street. A busway was originally planned for 34th Street before it was killed by NIMBYs.

[Armandito]

17 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

There is no need to build crosstown subways in Manhattan when we can just ban cars on streets and have busways like 14th Street. A busway was originally planned for 34th Street before it was killed by NIMBYs.

But that could only get you so far. As a matter of fact, existing crosstown subways have already reached capacity.

[Union Tpke]

1 minute ago, Armandito said:

But that could only get you so far. As a matter of fact, existing crosstown subways have already reached capacity.

We do not have billions to spend. A subway under 34th Street would easily cost $15 billion as you would have to deal with tunnels for the Lexington Avenue Line, the Sixth Avenue Line, the Eighth Avenue Line, the Broadway Line, the Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line, city water tunnel No. 2, PATH, and the tracks to/from Penn Station. Maximizing the use of our streets is the best thing to do.

[Armandito]

1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

We do not have billions to spend. A subway under 34th Street would easily cost $15 billion as you would have to deal with tunnels for the Lexington Avenue Line, the Sixth Avenue Line, the Eighth Avenue Line, the Broadway Line, the Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line, city water tunnel No. 2, PATH, and the tracks to/from Penn Station. Maximizing the use of our streets is the best thing to do.

On the other hand, if such a tunnel would've already been dug during the 1920s to 1930s, it would've been a different story.

[Bay Ridge Express]

1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

We do not have billions to spend. A subway under 34th Street would easily cost $15 billion as you would have to deal with tunnels for the Lexington Avenue Line, the Sixth Avenue Line, the Eighth Avenue Line, the Broadway Line, the Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line, city water tunnel No. 2, PATH, and the tracks to/from Penn Station. Maximizing the use of our streets is the best thing to do.

True, but this his proposal is definitely a long-term project... I agree that we should be prioritizing a busway first, though.

[Union Tpke]

1 hour ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

True, but this his proposal is definitely a long-term project... I agree that we should be prioritizing a busway first, though.

Second Avenue Phase 2 is a long-term project. I am so tired of all the utterly unrealistic subway expansion proposals here. All of us will be dead before Phase 3 is ever built. There is a pretty clear list of projects that would be in line if more funding was available (SAS, Utica Avenue, Hillside Avenue extension, Nostrand Avenue extension, and a few others). Anything past that list is fanciful. I really wish we had more discussions of ways to actually improve service, like strategic interlocking fixes, adjustments to stations to increase capacity, or other operational fixes that would have bigger impacts.

[LGA Link N Train]

52 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

Second Avenue Phase 2 is a long-term project. I am so tired of all the utterly unrealistic subway expansion proposals here. All of us will be dead before Phase 3 is ever built. There is a pretty clear list of projects that would be in line if more funding was available (SAS, Utica Avenue, Hillside Avenue extension, Nostrand Avenue extension, and a few others). Anything past that list is fanciful. I really wish we had more discussions of ways to actually improve service, like strategic interlocking fixes, adjustments to stations to increase capacity, or other operational fixes that would have bigger impacts.

    If we’re talking about operational fixes, then the only rings that I can think of are stuff that’s already been discussed, I’m going to go on a ramble here so I’m going to list a bunch of improvements that come off the top of my head. For example, converting every line to OPTO practices. Im not sure how big of an impact OPTO would make systemwide, but it would make a big impact nonetheless.

   In terms of interlocking fixes, the only thing that comes into mind is Rogers Junction, Improving the Interlocking’s north of 34th Street on the Broadway line (even though that should be deinterlined). The junction at 59th Street could easily be adjusted to make the  and  Express and the and  local. Since the  is currently using R-46’s, I don’t see why the  should put and 8 car 60 foot sets back on that line given that Full Length  Trains encourage Social Distancing and that the R-211’s are coming soon despite being delayed. (Also want to mention that I was riding the  train to 145th Street one time so I could transfer to the  to get to 190th. I got to 135th and the train stopped and I noticed that a  train got lineup to terminate at 145th. I don’t know how often this happens but what I learned from being held there is that having Trains that short turn at 145th Street creates a bottleneck in addition to trains merging/diverging at the Junction between 135th and 145th Streets.)’

   As for adjusting stations, more ADA accessible stations and Station Rehabs would be a necessity. Some stations (or platforms I should say) are in need of an expansion such as Canal Street on the  and . I don’t know if it was you that posted this a few years ago but I remember seeing a post of a 3D Model of the station’s layout with certain modifications to it that would help improve passenger flow. I might look for it today but I think there are limitations to doing that. 

  In terms of other fixes, we do have the CBTC Thread and ADA Accessibility thread. Threads in my opinion, that could use a bit more discussion given their potential and the amount of things that members could learn about. 
 

  One last thing. Having the funds to build certain projects doesn’t mean anything if our leadership is not in the right place. We’ve already seen that unfold and still see it happen on the daily with  management. 
 

  Also, quite irrelevant but I’ve been noticing the homeless coming back into the subway.

[Trainmaster5]

44 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

    If we’re talking about operational fixes, then the only rings that I can think of are stuff that’s already been discussed, I’m going to go on a ramble here so I’m going to list a bunch of improvements that come off the top of my head. For example, converting every line to OPTO practices. Im not sure how big of an impact OPTO would make systemwide, but it would make a big impact nonetheless.

   In terms of interlocking fixes, the only thing that comes into mind is Rogers Junction, Improving the Interlocking’s north of 34th Street on the Broadway line (even though that should be deinterlined). The junction at 59th Street could easily be adjusted to make the  and  Express and the and  local. Since the  is currently using R-46’s, I don’t see why the  should put and 8 car 60 foot sets back on that line given that Full Length  Trains encourage Social Distancing and that the R-211’s are coming soon despite being delayed. (Also want to mention that I was riding the  train to 145th Street one time so I could transfer to the  to get to 190th. I got to 135th and the train stopped and I noticed that a  train got lineup to terminate at 145th. I don’t know how often this happens but what I learned from being held there is that having Trains that short turn at 145th Street creates a bottleneck in addition to trains merging/diverging at the Junction between 135th and 145th Streets.)’

   As for adjusting stations, more ADA accessible stations and Station Rehabs would be a necessity. Some stations (or platforms I should say) are in need of an expansion such as Canal Street on the  and . I don’t know if it was you that posted this a few years ago but I remember seeing a post of a 3D Model of the station’s layout with certain modifications to it that would help improve passenger flow. I might look for it today but I think there are limitations to doing that. 

  In terms of other fixes, we do have the CBTC Thread and ADA Accessibility thread. Threads in my opinion, that could use a bit more discussion given their potential and the amount of things that members could learn about. 
 

  One last thing. Having the funds to build certain projects doesn’t mean anything if our leadership is not in the right place. We’ve already seen that unfold and still see it happen on the daily with  management. 
 

  Also, quite irrelevant but I’ve been noticing the homeless coming back into the subway.

Obviously I'm a union man given my history but can anyone explain to me how OPTO improves service ?  I'm just looking at it from an operational point of view but in it's most simplistic sense it's slower than a two man crew. I come from an era when the BMT 16,  , train had 2 conductors on some rush hour trains, specifically for the Broadway Junction stop. My first rule books mentioned "the Conductor in Charge" duties as well as the Conductors duties. Let's not overlook the obvious elephant in the room either. Are you or anyone else suggesting that we pay the sidelined conductors to sit around until they retire ? Just wondering if some of my fellow posters have ever looked at the real world repercussions associated with these posts. Whether you,. I, or anyone else agrees or disagrees, there's no hard feelings coming from my end. Just realize that politics, the NYS Constitution , and Civil Service Law have the final say in whatever comes next. Carry on.

[Union Tpke]

1 minute ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Obviously I'm a union man given my history but can anyone explain to me how OPTO improves service ?  I'm just looking at it from an operational point of view but in it's most simplistic sense it's slower than a two man crew. I come from an era when the BMT 16,  , train had 2 conductors on some rush hour trains, specifically for the Broadway Junction stop. My first rule books mentioned "the Conductor in Charge" duties as well as the Conductors duties. Let's not overlook the obvious elephant in the room either. Are you or anyone else suggesting that we pay the sidelined conductors to sit around until they retire ? Just wondering if some of my fellow posters have ever looked at the real world repercussions associated with these posts. Whether you,. I, or anyone else agrees or disagrees, there's no hard feelings coming from my end. Just realize that politics, the NYS Constitution , and Civil Service Law have the final say in whatever comes next. Carry on.

Triboro would have to change for OPTO to be possible.

[Armandito]

9 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

Triboro would have to change for OPTO to be possible.

The and shuttle services use OPTO specifically because they operate trains with fewer cars, rendering the need for a conductor as redundant.

[Bay Ridge Express]

2 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Second Avenue Phase 2 is a long-term project. I am so tired of all the utterly unrealistic subway expansion proposals here. All of us will be dead before Phase 3 is ever built. There is a pretty clear list of projects that would be in line if more funding was available (SAS, Utica Avenue, Hillside Avenue extension, Nostrand Avenue extension, and a few others). Anything past that list is fanciful. I really wish we had more discussions of ways to actually improve service, like strategic interlocking fixes, adjustments to stations to increase capacity, or other operational fixes that would have bigger impacts.

So would a line that runs on Northern Blvd and ease capacity on the  not improve service? 

The  is in need of many improvements. I would not reject a proposal that overall ties into the system and is cost-worthy even if there are other projects that should be prioritized.

[Union Tpke]

18 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

So would a line that runs on Northern Blvd and ease capacity on the  not improve service? 

The  is in need of many improvements. I would not reject a proposal that overall ties into the system and is cost-worthy even if there are other projects that should be prioritized.

A line along Northern would be up there, but you would need to construct a new trunk line for it. Unless the MTA can rein in construction costs, there will not be any major expansions of the system within our lifetimes. Having a transitway along Northern Boulevard would be transformational and would bring a lot of the benefits of a subway.

In terms of easing capacity on the , how about actually using the full potential of CBTC? 29 TPH run on the , and yet other systems operate 36-40 TPH with CBTC. Investments such as a short extension to Murray Hill for a new terminal, and expansions in station capacity, including additional exits, wider transfer facilities, and wider platforms, would do the trick. As Alon Levy often says, operations before electronics before concrete.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Union Tpke