Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Armandito]

43 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

A line along Northern would be up there, but you would need to construct a new trunk line for it. Unless the MTA can rein in construction costs, there will not be any major expansions of the system within our lifetimes. Having a transitway along Northern Boulevard would be transformational and would bring a lot of the benefits of a subway.

Hence why I opted for a crosstown line via 34th Street as opposed to funneling it into an existing trunk line and forcing a reroute of all other subway lines to accommodate it.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

12 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

There is no need to build crosstown subways in Manhattan when we can just ban cars on streets and have busways like 14th Street. A busway was originally planned for 34th Street before it was killed by NIMBYs.

On 34th St, yes there is. With two road traffic tunnels emptying onto 34th, just banning cars on 34th is not going to cut it. 14th St doesn’t have two major road traffic river crossings emptying onto it. And 14th already has a subway running below it, so a busway was feasible there.

11 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

We do not have billions to spend. A subway under 34th Street would easily cost $15 billion as you would have to deal with tunnels for the Lexington Avenue Line, the Sixth Avenue Line, the Eighth Avenue Line, the Broadway Line, the Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line, city water tunnel No. 2, PATH, and the tracks to/from Penn Station. Maximizing the use of our streets is the best thing to do.

That may be. But we don’t have billions to spend on pretty much anything right now. The existing bus lanes on 34th should be better protected. However that’s only going to go so far, given 34th St’s characteristics. 

8 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Second Avenue Phase 2 is a long-term project. I am so tired of all the utterly unrealistic subway expansion proposals here. All of us will be dead before Phase 3 is ever built. There is a pretty clear list of projects that would be in line if more funding was available (SAS, Utica Avenue, Hillside Avenue extension, Nostrand Avenue extension, and a few others). Anything past that list is fanciful. I really wish we had more discussions of ways to actually improve service, like strategic interlocking fixes, adjustments to stations to increase capacity, or other operational fixes that would have bigger impacts.

If the Feds tell New York to drop dead (wouldn’t be the first time... *cough1975cough*), then SAS Phase 2 does indeed become a long-term project and anything else probably would be pie in the sky. Then we should focus on improving the existing system. What strategic interlocking fixes, adjustments to stations or other operational fixes do you have in mind?

Maybe we luck out and get some help from the Feds. Then we should focus on improving the existing system plus making more stations ADA-compliant. And put together a long-term list of expansion projects like SAS, Utica, Hillside. But I still fail to see how a 34th St-Northern Blvd service is a “fanciful.” If it moves people across town faster, connects to nearly every north-south service in Manhattan and potentially relieves the overtaxed , then it should certainly be seen as a realistic proposal. I will agree that as a much shorter-term project, we should focus on beefing up  service to 36-40 tph, though that will likely force more trains to be put in or drop out at Willets Point or 111th, since Main St already has enough trouble turning back the pre-Covid schedule of rush hour trains.

Edited July 29, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Bay Ridge Express]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:22 PM, Armandito said:

How's this for a new subway line to Whitestone? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1h0Q4cPzuGMCyrTqZiUQQ57lA9yeWhNYI&ll=40.76973725716101%2C-73.9411849956531&z=13

If built, the stations along its westernmost segment would lie underneath the existing Central Park West corridor with non-revenue tracks connecting to the  at Columbus Circle (the terminal).

I would add one small change to your proposal, though, which would be to have a stop at Northern Blvd/Main St in order to serve Flushing without putting all of the weight on the .

Edited July 29, 2020 by Bay Ridge Express
grammar

[Armandito]

One reason for Brighton Beach's limited capacity as a terminal station could be that the tail tracks connecting from the local tracks end at stubs rather than merging with each other. I suppose one way to increase terminal capacity could be to raise those stub tracks to some sort of flying junction above the Ocean Parkway station so terminating local trains can relay there to switch between the Coney Island-bound and Manhattan-bound tracks. How's this idea?

I provided a link to the track map for reference: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/detail-coney.png

[Caelestor]

The Northern Blvd / Midtown crosstown line, which I'll tentatively call the (8), is probably the second most-important trunk line that should be built, after lower SAS. It would divert not only  riders with better stop spacing under Northern Blvd itself, but also QBL local riders who currently transfer to the  at Jackson Heights. Specifically, the line could take an express route under Sunnyside Yards such that it would only stop at Vernon Blvd and Court Square between Lexington / 3rd Aves and Broadway / Northern to minimize station construction costs. The (8) would naturally be deinterlined from other lines and could be "future-proofed" with improvements such as open gangways and full automation. As for 34 St, it is a great corridor for subway service but I think 50 St is better because the latter's walkshed covers most of the Midtown CBD and could divert a lot of the normal  to  riders.

[Armandito]

5 hours ago, Caelestor said:

The Northern Blvd / Midtown crosstown line, which I'll tentatively call the (8), is probably the second most-important trunk line that should be built, after lower SAS. It would divert not only  riders with better stop spacing under Northern Blvd itself, but also QBL local riders who currently transfer to the  at Jackson Heights. Specifically, the line could take an express route under Sunnyside Yards such that it would only stop at Vernon Blvd and Court Square between Lexington / 3rd Aves and Broadway / Northern to minimize station construction costs. The (8) would naturally be deinterlined from other lines and could be "future-proofed" with improvements such as open gangways and full automation. As for 34 St, it is a great corridor for subway service but I think 50 St is better because the latter's walkshed covers most of the Midtown CBD and could divert a lot of the normal  to  riders.

If I recall, the MTA proposed a new crosstown line below 48th Street (as a spur off the SAS) back in 1969. At the time it was simply known as the Midtown Manhattan Route: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:06_NYCTA69_newroutes_map.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

[Armandito]

@Caelestor Going in line with your proposal, I revised my map once again, this time rerouting it away from Whitestone to the Broadway LIRR station in Queens, and from 34th Street to 48th Street and West End Avenue to the 72nd Street  station. The planned train yard at the defunct Flushing Airport will still be in the books though. On the other hand, the following stations along 48th Street would serve as transfer points:

Broadway-7th Avenue  

5th Avenue-Rockefeller Center

3rd Avenue  

[Armandito]

On 7/29/2020 at 12:17 AM, Armandito said:

One reason for Brighton Beach's limited capacity as a terminal station could be that the tail tracks connecting from the local tracks end at stubs rather than merging with each other. I suppose one way to increase terminal capacity could be to raise those stub tracks to some sort of flying junction above the Ocean Parkway station so terminating local trains can relay there to switch between the Coney Island-bound and Manhattan-bound tracks. How's this idea?

I provided a link to the track map for reference: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/detail-coney.png

Going back to here, this is what I had in mind to increase terminal capacity at Brighton Beach: 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Armandito

[CenSin]

On 7/29/2020 at 12:17 AM, Armandito said:

One reason for Brighton Beach's limited capacity as a terminal station could be that the tail tracks connecting from the local tracks end at stubs rather than merging with each other. I suppose one way to increase terminal capacity could be to raise those stub tracks to some sort of flying junction above the Ocean Parkway station so terminating local trains can relay there to switch between the Coney Island-bound and Manhattan-bound tracks. How's this idea?

I provided a link to the track map for reference: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/detail-coney.png

I’ve drawn proposals for 3 different methods before (which I won’t repost as I cannot find them):

1. flyover structures swapping the inner and outer tracks between Sheepshead Bay and Brighton Beach or Neck Road and Brighton Beach
2. additional level above current Ocean Parkway platforms with storage tracks reconfigured to ramp up to the new level
3. rebuild of the lower level tracks leading from Ocean Parkway to West 8 Street, but with both tracks veering south off the structure combining into a single track along the southern edge of the lower level platform

The methods all have different advantages and trade-offs, but the commonality is that they all effectively swap the local () and express ().

1. no additional advantages/disadvantages
2. extends local and express service to Ocean Parkway; storage track way possibly not wide enough for a ramp going up, and 6 tracks at Ocean Parkway likely way more tracks than necessary
3. extends local and express service to Ocean Parkway; property taking required for 1 additional track way hugging the southern side of the existing West 8 Street station and reduced turning capacity

Since they all involve some comparable levels of new construction, it’s not easy to determine the cost advantages of any over the others. But from a perspective of how much sense each proposal makes, #1 is probably the best choice.

[LGA Link N Train]

48 minutes ago, CenSin said:

flyover structures swapping the inner and outer tracks between Sheepshead Bay and Brighton Beach or Neck Road and Brighton Beach

I think doing this swap at around Neck Road is easier because there’s already a ramp going Southbound in that Area that used to take trains off to some Race Track Spur. 

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

I think doing this swap at around Neck Road is easier because there’s already a ramp going Southbound in that Area that used to take trains off to some Race Track Spur. 

The right-of-way between Neck Road and Sheepshead Bay is residential though. There might be less push-back from doing it just south of Sheepshead Bay where there is a whole lot of empty space, the Belt Parkway, and some commercial properties south of that.

The nice thing about the swap (as opposed to building another level above Ocean Parkway) is that an influx of rush hour s can be absorbed by the tail tracks leading up to Ocean Parkway to keep trains moving into Brighton Beach. That can’t be done at Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue without disturbing the . Coney Island also gets a direct express route to Manhattan that’s faster than any of the other existing options available.

[Armandito]

1 minute ago, CenSin said:

The right-of-way between Neck Road and Sheepshead Bay is residential though. There might be less push-back from doing it just south of Sheepshead Bay where there is a whole lot of empty space, the Belt Parkway, and some commercial properties south of that.

The nice thing about the swap (as opposed to building another level above Ocean Parkway) is that an influx of rush hour s can be absorbed by the tail tracks leading up to Ocean Parkway to keep trains moving into Brighton Beach. That can’t be done at Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue without disturbing the . Coney Island also gets a direct express route to Manhattan that’s faster than any of the other existing options available.

IIRC there was an earlier mention about terminal capacity at Brighton Beach being set to a maximum of 12 TPH at its current layout. With this setup it is possible to make better use of the stub tracks to increase turning capacity as they would connect to both platforms as opposed to just one platform.

On the other hand, the presence of flyovers south of Sheepshead Bay would require reconfiguration of existing service patterns along the Brighton Line:

On weekdays until 10 p.m.,  trains replace the to and from Stillwell Avenue, with the latter terminating at Brighton Beach

trains operate to and from Stillwell Avenue on weeknights after 10 p.m., late nights, and weekends only

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 7/29/2020 at 2:22 AM, Caelestor said:

The Northern Blvd / Midtown crosstown line, which I'll tentatively call the (8), is probably the second most-important trunk line that should be built, after lower SAS. It would divert not only  riders with better stop spacing under Northern Blvd itself, but also QBL local riders who currently transfer to the  at Jackson Heights. Specifically, the line could take an express route under Sunnyside Yards such that it would only stop at Vernon Blvd and Court Square between Lexington / 3rd Aves and Broadway / Northern to minimize station construction costs. The (8) would naturally be deinterlined from other lines and could be "future-proofed" with improvements such as open gangways and full automation. As for 34 St, it is a great corridor for subway service but I think 50 St is better because the latter's walkshed covers most of the Midtown CBD and could divert a lot of the normal  to  riders.

This I can agree with, though a line running along 48th (the MTA proposal from the late 1960s) or 50th would connect only to the local trains at every north-south trunk save 6th Avenue, whereas 34th would connect to every local train, PATH, LIRR, Amtrak and NJT plus every express except the  and . It could even serve Hudson Yards. Though I do agree that a 50th St crosstown would no doubt be a well-used service. Also agree with using open-gangway rolling stock and full automation right from the start.

On 7/29/2020 at 8:10 AM, Armandito said:

If I recall, the MTA proposed a new crosstown line below 48th Street (as a spur off the SAS) back in 1969. At the time it was simply known as the Midtown Manhattan Route: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:06_NYCTA69_newroutes_map.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

Yes, I’ve seen that map countless times, including here. I can see why they would locate it there (they proposed LIRR to Grand Central back then, too). 

[CenSin]

33 minutes ago, Armandito said:

On the other hand, the presence of flyovers south of Sheepshead Bay would require reconfiguration of existing service patterns along the Brighton Line:

On weekdays until 10 p.m.,  trains replace the to and from Stillwell Avenue, with the latter terminating at Brighton Beach

trains operate to and from Stillwell Avenue on weeknights after 10 p.m., late nights, and weekends only

Well, that’s also the point. As with much of the other lines, express trains serve an extended segment while local trains terminate somewhere between the end of the line and Manhattan.

2 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

flyover structures swapping the inner and outer tracks between Sheepshead Bay and Brighton Beach or Neck Road and Brighton Beach

I think doing this swap at around Neck Road is easier because there’s already a ramp going Southbound in that Area that used to take trains off to some Race Track Spur.

Like the DeKalb Avenue junction at either end:

[LGA Link N Train]

24 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Well, that’s also the point. As with much of the other lines, express trains serve an extended segment while local trains terminate somewhere between the end of the line and Manhattan.

Like the DeKalb Avenue junction at either end:

I was thinking about something similar to this but the former track map you made works too. 

[Armandito]

20 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Well, that’s also the point. As with much of the other lines, express trains serve an extended segment while local trains terminate somewhere between the end of the line and Manhattan.

The also runs at a slightly greater frequency which means Coney Island commuters could get an additional train to Manhattan via the Brighton Line in addition to faster service. The runs at an average of 8 TPH compared to the at 7.5 TPH. Referencing one of my recent subway proposals (the X train), this type of layout could also enable extending Crosstown trains to terminate at Brighton Beach during the hours the operates as the station's turning capacity is expanded.

[RR503]

Obviously there’s a difference between discussing ways to solve an issue and saying that said resolution should be a priority, but I would rank a  terminal swap pretty low among potential investments. You’d be *marginally* benefitting two stations (Stillwell has the , and you could potentially make a <D>) at huge infrastructure cost. If you want to increase terminal cap at Brighton Beach, just reconfigure the switches so trains off of A1 track can relay south of the station and come back on A2 — or essentially what Armandito proposed up thread 

[bobtehpanda]

As far as Manhattan crosstowns go, 34 St is actually a pretty poor choice. East of 5th 34th St doesn't have a whole lot going on, a good chunk of land around 34th St is taken up by the approaches to the QMT to the west and the Lincoln Tunnel to the east, and on top of that you have to deal with the LIRR which basically takes up 34th to 32nd Sts.

Crosstown routes in Manhattan are important, but based on density and existing bus routes, the best candidates are probably

• 50 St; all major trunks have local stops and close to the office core
• 57 St; all express stops and also close to the office core
• 86 St; busiest cross-Central Park bus route
• 125 St

[BreeddekalbL]

Random thought regarding  

In terms of regarding a closing lorimer and hewes and merging it ino 1 station and relocating Marcy ave to over the bus terminal

New station to Replace lorimer and hewes would be called Union and Broadway with free xfer to the  

The new marcy ave would be relocated over to the bus terminal  and a new y crossover would be added before the curve

Instead of stairs there would be elevators and ramps to platforms 

There will be a Y crossover at marcy which will enable the or  to run peak express myrtle to marcy and skip stop east of myrtle to jamaica ctr

[LGA Link N Train]

9 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

As far as Manhattan crosstowns go, 34 St is actually a pretty poor choice. East of 5th 34th St doesn't have a whole lot going on, a good chunk of land around 34th St is taken up by the approaches to the QMT to the west and the Lincoln Tunnel to the east, and on top of that you have to deal with the LIRR which basically takes up 34th to 32nd Sts.

Crosstown routes in Manhattan are important, but based on density and existing bus routes, the best candidates are probably

• 50 St; all major trunks have local stops and close to the office core
• 57 St; all express stops and also close to the office core
• 86 St; busiest cross-Central Park bus route
• 125 St

In this case, I think 57th is the best candidate for a potential Crosstown Route along Midtown. For simplicity sake, I think it would make sense to have it take over the 11th Street cut and it share QB Local with the or have it take QB Local for itself up until Jamaica. 

 

8 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Random thought regarding  

In terms of regarding a closing lorimer and hewes and merging it ino 1 station and relocating Marcy ave to over the bus terminal

New station to Replace lorimer and hewes would be called Union and Broadway with free xfer to the  

The new marcy ave would be relocated over to the bus terminal  and a new y crossover would be added before the curve

Instead of stairs there would be elevators and ramps to platforms 

There will be a Y crossover at marcy which will enable the or  to run peak express myrtle to marcy and skip stop east of myrtle to jamaica ctr

This is something that I think everyone on the forums agrees on. I could be wrong though.

[bobtehpanda]

Shower thought:

The old Jamaica Line is very old with parts of the line dating from the 1880s and stop spacing to match.

One thing that Chicago was considering when it was redoing its el for reconstruction was reconstructing either as a subway or el, but going from 4 tracks to 2. However, they were going to consolidate stop spacing (mostly by moving from stations with one exit in the middle to stations with two exits on either end), and the analysis showed that this would actually result in faster trips than even the current express runs on that line.

I wonder if it would be worth investigating something similar for the Jamaica Line, and if it would be possible to also replace the el with a concrete structure to reduce noise.

[Armandito]

1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

In this case, I think 57th is the best candidate for a potential Crosstown Route along Midtown. For simplicity sake, I think it would make sense to have it take over the 11th Street cut and it share QB Local with the or have it take QB Local for itself up until Jamaica. 

One drawback, however, is that 57th Street lies too close to the 59th Street corridor east of Seventh Avenue. While it could be argued that 50th Street is better, it's not served by most express trains which could inconvenience some potential riders.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Armandito

[danig1220]

10 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Random thought regarding  

In terms of regarding a closing lorimer and hewes and merging it ino 1 station and relocating Marcy ave to over the bus terminal

New station to Replace lorimer and hewes would be called Union and Broadway with free xfer to the  

The new marcy ave would be relocated over to the bus terminal  and a new y crossover would be added before the curve

Instead of stairs there would be elevators and ramps to platforms 

There will be a Y crossover at marcy which will enable the or  to run peak express myrtle to marcy and skip stop east of myrtle to jamaica ctr

But do any of the stations east of Myrtle/Broadway , have historical protections.

[LGA Link N Train]

2 minutes ago, Armandito said:

One drawback, however, is that 57th Street lies too close to the 59th Street corridor east of Seventh Avenue. While it could be argued that 50th Street is better, it's not served by most express trains which could inconvenience some potential riders.

That not a dawback IMO since 57th could serve as a viable alternative if 59th goes down. 

[LGA Link N Train]

19 minutes ago, danig1220 said:

But do any of the stations east of Myrtle/Broadway , have historical protections.

Not that I know of, but maybe someone else has that answer on here.

Anyways, since we're on the topic of the  LIne, might was well present a map that I've kept to myself for 2 years, but never went anywhere with it. I scaled the projects from High Priority to Low Priority:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1len8Pe9UFEkHuFGIbxvp6YA9qGILXHx_&usp=sharing