Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Vulturious]

12 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Well that is an interesting question: what to do with the Atlantic Branch when East Side Access opens instead of a LIRR shuttle.

Like is it feasible to reroute  or  onto it to Jamaica so the Rogers Junction choke point isn't as much of one? Or run  or  on it?

Could it be connected to the Atlantic Street railroad tunnel and create a new trunkline to Manhattan or Staten Island via Redhook?

Possibilities.

Honestly speaking, either routes of the Subway running on the Atlantic Branch can be beneficial as it provides I guess in a way better service to Jamaica as that station is a huge transfer point for almost all of the LIRR. Adding another line from Brooklyn straight towards Queens as well is a good idea. With the line running side by side with the  and 's Fulton line, it provides a redundancy in case something goes wrong with Fulton, there is another line running besides it to help with those issues since Fulton line is running only 2 lines which I hear is a hit or miss since I've never taken that line yet. If this were to connect to a new trunkline to Manhattan, I think having the  running through it is a good idea because the structure is already there and just needs to be converted for Subway use. Although, wouldn't this mean that there needs to be more stations to be constructed on that line to at least hit some other areas that are being missed regardless if it's the , , , , or ? Like you said, lots of possibilities.

[Vulturious]

2 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Honestly speaking, either routes of the Subway running on the Atlantic Branch can be beneficial as it provides I guess in a way better service to Jamaica as that station is a huge transfer point for almost all of the LIRR. Adding another line from Brooklyn straight towards Queens as well is a good idea. With the line running side by side with the  and 's Fulton line, it provides a redundancy in case something goes wrong with Fulton, there is another line running besides it to help with those issues since Fulton line is running only 2 lines which I hear is a hit or miss since I've never taken that line yet. If this were to connect to a new trunkline to Manhattan, I think having the  running through it is a good idea because the structure is already there and just needs to be converted for Subway use. Although, wouldn't this mean that there needs to be more stations to be constructed on that line to at least hit some other areas that are being missed regardless if it's the , , , , or ? Like you said, lots of possibilities.

So back to what I was saying about the MTA abandoning the LIRR Atlantic Branch (which isn't as far-fetched as you think really, we literally have other examples of the MTA abandoning other lines before), them converting the Atlantic Branch into a Subway line would really be beneficial.

I was talking to someone and they thought it would be a good idea to basically bring back the Rockaway Branch in a way.

The idea is to extend the on that line as well as moving the on Atlantic Av line along with extending the onto Fulton local (I have no idea where both the  and  would be extended from, but I'm guessing through already-made tunnels like Montague and Cranberry tunnel).

Atlantic Av line would have to create new tracks for local service to operate, but I think its doable.

 would run express on Atlantic Av with the remaining local.

 would then run towards Rockaway Park cutting the Rockaway Park shuttle.

 trains continuing service to Jamaica.

This would mean trains are running express on Broadway full time now because the is running.

trains are running the same service as before but during late nights, they can terminate at Atlantic Av instead so trains can still resume normal service.

I'd say this is a much better investment that the should look into, doesn't need to be exactly like this, but at least now there is a, I guess, better redundancy to help out Fulton St line.

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

Well that is an interesting question: what to do with the Atlantic Branch when East Side Access opens instead of a LIRR shuttle.

Like is it feasible to reroute  or  onto it to Jamaica so the Rogers Junction choke point isn't as much of one? Or run  or  on it?

Could it be connected to the Atlantic Street railroad tunnel and create a new trunkline to Manhattan or Staten Island via Redhook?

Possibilities.

Connect the Atlantic Branch to ESA and you can through-run Port Washington trains to Far Rockaway. With some work, West Hempstead can join without much of a problem. (I'd rather feed Long Beach into 23rd Street. As for Staten Island, well, I guess the Triboro RX plan can swing across Victory Boulevard.)

[R10 2952]

3 hours ago, Deucey said:

Could it be connected to the Atlantic Street railroad tunnel and create a new trunkline to Manhattan or Staten Island via Redhook?

Now that you mention it, Atlantic Branch via the old tunnel and then onward to NJ could make sense; there's been plans for a "Cross-Harbor Rail Tunnel" for freight dating back to at least 2000- so far they've all called for the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch to be connected to NJ or possibly with the SIR North Shore Branch, but I think Brooklyn Heights to Jersey City would be a lot more direct.

Edited November 18, 2020 by R10 2952

[bobtehpanda]

19 hours ago, Deucey said:

Well that is an interesting question: what to do with the Atlantic Branch when East Side Access opens instead of a LIRR shuttle.

Like is it feasible to reroute  or  onto it to Jamaica so the Rogers Junction choke point isn't as much of one? Or run  or  on it?

Could it be connected to the Atlantic Street railroad tunnel and create a new trunkline to Manhattan or Staten Island via Redhook?

Possibilities.

The "obvious" solution would be to connect the one trunk line that has no Brooklyn connection to the Atlantic Branch. In 2500 when we complete it.

[bobtehpanda]

17 hours ago, Lex said:

Connect the Atlantic Branch to ESA and you can through-run Port Washington trains to Far Rockaway. With some work, West Hempstead can join without much of a problem. (I'd rather feed Long Beach into 23rd Street. As for Staten Island, well, I guess the Triboro RX plan can swing across Victory Boulevard.)

The most work (other than a tunnel under the river) would probably be the Jamaica interlocking, which we just redid as part of ESA to be faster (good!), simpler (good!) and only link to the Main Line (bad)

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The "obvious" solution would be to connect the one trunk line that has no Brooklyn connection to the Atlantic Branch. In 2500 when we complete it.

That with a way to switch so trains from SAS can go to SI or Jamaica, and from Jamaica to SI and SAS could both take some traffic off the VZ/Belt Pkwy/SIE and eliminate the ferry.

Probably have to be a two-fare zone to pay for the SI tunnel, but it's an interesting project to improve air quality.

[Lex]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The most work (other than a tunnel under the river) would probably be the Jamaica interlocking, which we just redid as part of ESA to be faster (good!), simpler (good!) and only link to the Main Line (bad)

The issues with West Hempstead are largely tied to its current design (single-tracked, short platforms, directly connects with the Montauk Branch and either has to awkwardly transition to the Atlantic Branch by the Valley Stream station or wait until Jamaica unless it's going to Penn Station). As far as I'm concerned, the (main) Jamaica interlocking should have two pairs of tracks connecting both ends of the Main Line, one pair connecting both ends of the Atlantic Branch (obviously, the connections to Platform F would fork off earlier in order to facilitate short-turns) and one pair connecting both ends of the Montauk Branch (with Lower Montauk seeing a passenger alignment shift east of LIC and an extension across Manhattan via 23rd Street).

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

The issues with West Hempstead are largely tied to its current design (single-tracked, short platforms, directly connects with the Montauk Branch and either has to awkwardly transition to the Atlantic Branch by the Valley Stream station or wait until Jamaica unless it's going to Penn Station). As far as I'm concerned, the (main) Jamaica interlocking should have two pairs of tracks connecting both ends of the Main Line, one pair connecting both ends of the Atlantic Branch (obviously, the connections to Platform F would fork off earlier in order to facilitate short-turns) and one pair connecting both ends of the Montauk Branch (with Lower Montauk seeing a passenger alignment shift east of LIC and an extension across Manhattan via 23rd Street).

This more or less is what currently exists today, just with really slow switches.

The LIRR Today used to have a post describing the interlocking project, but IIRC the current plan is that the only connections from Platform F and the Atlantic branch are completely flat.

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Deucey said:

That with a way to switch so trains from SAS can go to SI or Jamaica, and from Jamaica to SI and SAS could both take some traffic off the VZ/Belt Pkwy/SIE and eliminate the ferry.

Probably have to be a two-fare zone to pay for the SI tunnel, but it's an interesting project to improve air quality.

Good luck prying the capacity from Queens and Nassau's cold dead hands.

[bobtehpanda]

22 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Now that you mention it, Atlantic Branch via the old tunnel and then onward to NJ could make sense; there's been plans for a "Cross-Harbor Rail Tunnel" for freight dating back to at least 2000- so far they've all called for the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch to be connected to NJ or possibly with the SIR North Shore Branch, but I think Brooklyn Heights to Jersey City would be a lot more direct.

This is the project that Port Authority remembers about once in a blue moon, and will probably never actually happen.

The most realistic freight improvement project would be to use the transit provisions over the Tappan Zee for rail and cut a good amount of miles from the Selkirk diversion.

[mrsman]

On 11/17/2020 at 5:57 PM, Vulturious said:

Honestly speaking, either routes of the Subway running on the Atlantic Branch can be beneficial as it provides I guess in a way better service to Jamaica as that station is a huge transfer point for almost all of the LIRR. Adding another line from Brooklyn straight towards Queens as well is a good idea. With the line running side by side with the  and 's Fulton line, it provides a redundancy in case something goes wrong with Fulton, there is another line running besides it to help with those issues since Fulton line is running only 2 lines which I hear is a hit or miss since I've never taken that line yet. If this were to connect to a new trunkline to Manhattan, I think having the  running through it is a good idea because the structure is already there and just needs to be converted for Subway use. Although, wouldn't this mean that there needs to be more stations to be constructed on that line to at least hit some other areas that are being missed regardless if it's the , , , , or ? Like you said, lots of possibilities.

I do like the idea of using the Atlantic branch for a subway.  Direct Brooklyn to Jamaica service is a big plus.

If there is funding for a new East River tunnel, then it seems like the best option would be a  connection.  Lower Manhattan - Downtown Brooklyn - East New York - Jamaica as an express subway with few stops in between (just places where there would be transfers to other subway lines).

If no new East River tunnel is built, but small landside connecting tunnels are allowed, then I envision something along the following:

 and  feed the Montague tunnel, with  continuing to Bay Ridge, but  taking over the Fulton local tracks.  [Most who envision this connection do it by way of the Transit Museum and using a tunnel along Clinton St.]

A Spring Street tunnel to connect 8th Ave local trains to the Williamsburg Bridge.  This means the M will run on 8th Ave local instead of 6th Ave, allowing for all of the 6th Ave trains to use the Rutgers street tunnel.  This would allow the  trains to continue to the Culver line and the  trains (which will take the place of M along 6th Ave) becoming the Fulton express.

[Extrapolating the above further, means  and  will enter Queens along the 63rd street tunnel and M and  along the 53rd street tunnel.  Whether this is further deinterlined along Queens Blvd can be decided independently, but my preference would have M and E as the QBL locals and F and V as the QBL expresses.]

As teh Fulton line would now be served by  and ,  and  will be available for the Atlantic Express.  8th Ave express, through the Cranberry tunnel and then a new tunnel in Brooklyn.  The tunnel will be along Adams-Boreum-Atlantic to connect the High Street station with Atlantic/Flatubush and possibly a new station in between to service Downtown Brooklyn.   to service Atlantic/Flatbush - either Franklin or Nostrand (there is already a station at Nostrand, but Franklin allows a connection to   ) - ENY station (with connection to ) - Woodhaven (to connect with some future Rockaway Park service) - and then Jamaica.  Alternatively, the Atlantic line can branch with half the trains ending in Jamaica and the other half servicing and supplementing the Rockaways via Howard Beach.

 

[Wallyhorse]

On 8/1/2020 at 2:25 AM, bobtehpanda said:

As far as Manhattan crosstowns go, 34 St is actually a pretty poor choice. East of 5th 34th St doesn't have a whole lot going on, a good chunk of land around 34th St is taken up by the approaches to the QMT to the west and the Lincoln Tunnel to the east, and on top of that you have to deal with the LIRR which basically takes up 34th to 32nd Sts.

Crosstown routes in Manhattan are important, but based on density and existing bus routes, the best candidates are probably

• 50 St; all major trunks have local stops and close to the office core
• 57 St; all express stops and also close to the office core
• 86 St; busiest cross-Central Park bus route
• 125 St

Best way to do 125 IMO is still to extend SAS Phase 2 all the way across 125 to at least where it meets the  at Broadway if not to a new Metro-North station at 12th Avenue (with stops besides Lex-125, also stopping at Lenox Avenue for the and St. Nicholas Avenue for the ).  That also gives those on the east side a one-seat ride to Columbia University.  

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Best way to do 125 IMO is still to extend SAS Phase 2 all the way across 125 to at least where it meets the  at Broadway if not to a new Metro-North station at 12th Avenue (with stops besides Lex-125, also stopping at Lenox Avenue for the and St. Nicholas Avenue for the ).  That also gives those on the east side a one-seat ride to Columbia University.  

I can't believe I'm saying this, but of all the extensions that get thrown around here this is the most realistic one to actually happen, since it is relatively easy to build (the tail tracks already go to Lenox) and there is a clear political demand for such a line, as opposed to say an extension west into... Chelsea Piers?

(Although I think the timeframe on Metro-North on the Empire Corridor is pretty much infinite given that no one talks about PSA phase II.)

[Bklyn Bound 2 Local]

20 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Best way to do 125 IMO is still to extend SAS Phase 2 all the way across 125 to at least where it meets the  at Broadway if not to a new Metro-North station at 12th Avenue (with stops besides Lex-125, also stopping at Lenox Avenue for the and St. Nicholas Avenue for the ).  That also gives those on the east side a one-seat ride to Columbia University.  

The Metro-North extension is a pretty good opportunity not only for a new 125th Street Metro-North Connection, but also a connection down to Penn Station. All it requires is for the curve into Penn station to be double tracked and maybe widened.

[Armandito]

On 11/19/2020 at 8:23 AM, mrsman said:

I do like the idea of using the Atlantic branch for a subway.  Direct Brooklyn to Jamaica service is a big plus.

If there is funding for a new East River tunnel, then it seems like the best option would be a  connection.  Lower Manhattan - Downtown Brooklyn - East New York - Jamaica as an express subway with few stops in between (just places where there would be transfers to other subway lines).

If no new East River tunnel is built, but small landside connecting tunnels are allowed, then I envision something along the following:

 and  feed the Montague tunnel, with  continuing to Bay Ridge, but  taking over the Fulton local tracks.  [Most who envision this connection do it by way of the Transit Museum and using a tunnel along Clinton St.]

A Spring Street tunnel to connect 8th Ave local trains to the Williamsburg Bridge.  This means the M will run on 8th Ave local instead of 6th Ave, allowing for all of the 6th Ave trains to use the Rutgers street tunnel.  This would allow the  trains to continue to the Culver line and the  trains (which will take the place of M along 6th Ave) becoming the Fulton express.

[Extrapolating the above further, means  and  will enter Queens along the 63rd street tunnel and M and  along the 53rd street tunnel.  Whether this is further deinterlined along Queens Blvd can be decided independently, but my preference would have M and E as the QBL locals and F and V as the QBL expresses.]

As teh Fulton line would now be served by  and ,  and  will be available for the Atlantic Express.  8th Ave express, through the Cranberry tunnel and then a new tunnel in Brooklyn.  The tunnel will be along Adams-Boreum-Atlantic to connect the High Street station with Atlantic/Flatubush and possibly a new station in between to service Downtown Brooklyn.   to service Atlantic/Flatbush - either Franklin or Nostrand (there is already a station at Nostrand, but Franklin allows a connection to   ) - ENY station (with connection to ) - Woodhaven (to connect with some future Rockaway Park service) - and then Jamaica.  Alternatively, the Atlantic line can branch with half the trains ending in Jamaica and the other half servicing and supplementing the Rockaways via Howard Beach.

 

I wouldn't overcomplicate things like you're doing now. I'd just leave current subway service as is and just extend the along the Atlantic Branch to Sutphin Blvd.

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, Armandito said:

I wouldn't overcomplicate things like you're doing now. I'd just leave current subway service as is and just extend the along the Atlantic Branch to Sutphin Blvd.

Don't know why, but I see this as being the most likely outcome for a Atlantic Avenue Subway Conversion, it could also make an RBB connection a lot easier IMO:

 

[Armandito]

8 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Don't know why, but I see this as being the most likely outcome for a Atlantic Avenue Subway Conversion, it could also make an RBB connection a lot easier IMO:

 

For the Rockaway extension, I'd keep current service as is and replace the Rockaway Park with an extension of an SAS route from Manhattan.

[Bay Ridge Express]

20 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Don't know why, but I see this as being the most likely outcome for a Atlantic Avenue Subway Conversion, it could also make an RBB connection a lot easier IMO:

 

I like the idea of connecting to the Rockaways considering it will mostly be used for Queens-Manhattan travel but I might prefer a direct North-South Queens line.

[Theli11]

Just now, Bay Ridge Express said:

I like the idea of connecting to the Rockaways considering it will mostly be used for Queens-Manhattan travel but I might prefer a direct North-South Queens line.

That would probably be a separate line,  perhaps even the Queens Super Express, from the Rockaways to Hanover Square.

[Armandito]

10 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I like the idea of connecting to the Rockaways considering it will mostly be used for Queens-Manhattan travel but I might prefer a direct North-South Queens line.

Same, but I also think a new subway line to Queens College and Fresh Meadows is also needed, given that Eastern Queens is very much a transit desert. In my proposal here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=18jFWx4hiotMYgqkD5i3yJtylRH_0EBa3), I planned on rerouting trains to the bypass at all times with express service along the existing QBL express tracks being served by trains and a new Queens-Manhattan SAS service; the latter would operate to Jamaica (179 St) on weekdays and to Fresh Meadows during other times ( trains would serve Fresh Meadows instead of Forest Hills on weekdays).

While I do support extending the to Brooklyn via the LIRR Atlantic Branch, one drawback with this plan is that we don't know if Hanover Sq could still serve as a terminal station for SAS trains coming from the QBL. Making Queens-Manhattan SAS trains run into Brooklyn would mean a longer, less reliable route--and this is a big reason why we shouldn't extend trains beyond World Trade Center (especially since it's a very busy and congested route).

 

 

[Vulturious]

17 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Don't know why, but I see this as being the most likely outcome for a Atlantic Avenue Subway Conversion, it could also make an RBB connection a lot easier IMO:

This honestly would be a much better use of the Atlantic Branch. Not only is it basically running parallel with Fulton St line, but its also technically making express stops along the way. I'm guessing there is a local service from SAS that also runs along the line that runs to Suptin Blvd which works pretty well. Personally, I feel it would be good to at least have maybe 1 more line connected onto the Atlantic branch for reroutes 4th Av Line, Brighton Line, and even Fulton Line, although I don't know how doable that is. This also provides another redundancy for the Jamaica El line as usually, no one wasts to take the line at all and usually would straight up avoid it by taking QBL instead. There could be a few free Out-of-System transfers on Fulton line as well as Jamaica line such as Utica Av, Crescent St, maybe even Broadway Junction for those that don't want to take the  at Atlantic just to get onto Broadway Junction.

[Reptile]

23 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Don't know why, but I see this as being the most likely outcome for a Atlantic Avenue Subway Conversion, it could also make an RBB connection a lot easier IMO:

 

Love the Rockaway connection. With an RBB the would be completely relieved of its biggest problem, as it would have just one north and south terminal. I guess another line could use the tunnel with the to be a Fulton Local. Maybe splitting at Court St?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

13 hours ago, Armandito said:

Same, but I also think a new subway line to Queens College and Fresh Meadows is also needed, given that Eastern Queens is very much a transit desert. In my proposal here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=18jFWx4hiotMYgqkD5i3yJtylRH_0EBa3), I planned on rerouting trains to the bypass at all times with express service along the existing QBL express tracks being served by trains and a new Queens-Manhattan SAS service; the latter would operate to Jamaica (179 St) on weekdays and to Fresh Meadows during other times ( trains would serve Fresh Meadows instead of Forest Hills on weekdays).

While I do support extending the to Brooklyn via the LIRR Atlantic Branch, one drawback with this plan is that we don't know if Hanover Sq could still serve as a terminal station for SAS trains coming from the QBL. Making Queens-Manhattan SAS trains run into Brooklyn would mean a longer, less reliable route--and this is a big reason why we shouldn't extend trains beyond World Trade Center (especially since it's a very busy and congested route).

 

 

I can agree with a line going to eastern Queens and serving Queens College and Fresh Meadows. That would be a well-used line. 

As for the SAS and Atlantic Branch, why not have the  extend to Brooklyn and Queens via the Atlantic Branch and have the Queens-SAS service terminate at Hanover Square?

[Vulturious]

13 hours ago, Armandito said:

Same, but I also think a new subway line to Queens College and Fresh Meadows is also needed, given that Eastern Queens is very much a transit desert. In my proposal here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=18jFWx4hiotMYgqkD5i3yJtylRH_0EBa3), I planned on rerouting trains to the bypass at all times with express service along the existing QBL express tracks being served by trains and a new Queens-Manhattan SAS service; the latter would operate to Jamaica (179 St) on weekdays and to Fresh Meadows during other times ( trains would serve Fresh Meadows instead of Forest Hills on weekdays).

While I do support extending the to Brooklyn via the LIRR Atlantic Branch, one drawback with this plan is that we don't know if Hanover Sq could still serve as a terminal station for SAS trains coming from the QBL. Making Queens-Manhattan SAS trains run into Brooklyn would mean a longer, less reliable route--and this is a big reason why we shouldn't extend trains beyond World Trade Center (especially since it's a very busy and congested route).

 

 

17 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I can agree with a line going to eastern Queens and serving Queens College and Fresh Meadows. That would be a well-used line. 

As for the SAS and Atlantic Branch, why not have the  extend to Brooklyn and Queens via the Atlantic Branch and have the Queens-SAS service terminate at Hanover Square?

I don't see a big problem with this at all. Service coming from QBL would just terminate at Hanover Square, there isn't a need for it to keep it running into Brooklyn at all, just transfer to the  for service towards Brooklyn, problem solved. It's like you said about the , there is no need to really extend it. Although, personally I'd like it to have some sort of connection to other lines like 4th Av line and Brighton if possible. I do not know how doable it is, but it would allow for reroutes.