Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[mrsman]

Thank you darkstar8983 for your comments.  I envisions my train in the above proposal as being merely a supplemental service, so every 10 min (or 6 TPH) is perfect.  The main QBL local should be  and the main Broadway local should be  .   is to be used primarily by QBL local passengers who need access to Queens Plaza area, who use Queens Plaza to transfer to an 8th Ave  or  service, and who need a direct transfer to  .  As is   meant to be more frequent, and since  stops are relatively close to most other  stops, even QBL local customers who want to head to a Broadway stop can just as easily walk from an stop in most of Midtown or make the cross-platform transfer at 63-Lex to  if headed to one of the express stations.

By very unscientific means, I measure the distance from 207 St station to Far Rockaway to be 32.3 miles and the distance from 179 St station to Far Rockaway to be 36.2 miles.  So yes, an 8th Ave express - Far Rockaway train starting at 179 St Jamica Estates will be 4 miles longer [the distance of 80 Manhattan street blocks] than one that starts at 207 St. Inwood.  Whether that in itself is a problem, I couldn't say.  I beleive that the intermingling of different train lines is far more likely to cause delays and operational problems than the mere length of the line.  And in the context of a line that is already over 30 miles, will an additional 4 miles make much difference?

With regard to the Myrtle line, my  from BPB to Metro is about 19.6 miles.  The current  from Forest Hills to Metro is about 18.2 miles.  Again, not sure if the extra 1.4 miles makes much difference relative to the length of the whole line.

You are right about people not realizing the extra time it takes to make some of the convoluted transfers.  I would certainly rather walk a little further, if it meant that I would get to a service that was more frequent to my home station.  When I lived in Eastern Queens, my main lines that I took were  and  .  Back when ran on 53rd, it was far better for me to walk a little further to the 5th/53rd station (where every train went my direction) than it would be to go to the closer 42nd/6th station where I only had the .  Under my plan, every 8th Ave express station will be a station that serves all QBL expresses.  If you can get to 8th Ave (or 53rd street), your wait for a train will be half the time statistically speaking than under today's plan where  and  stop at separate stations in all of Manhattan except W4th.

Another anecdote.  Many years ago, I was a student at NYU, and my department's closest station was W4th.  (Most of the campus is of course closer to 8th st on the Broadway line.)  Anyway, some fellow students who took Metro-North in told me that it was faster and easier to walk from GCT to 6th Ave and take the B/D/Q [this was in the era of Orange Q] directly to W4th than to do take 4/5 to Union Square and then transfer to R to 8th.  How many people realize that the 6th Ave line is only a little walk further than the 4/5/6.  How many people heading to the 6th Ave corridor realize that they should just walk to 6th and take the subway from there as opposed to maybe taking the shuttle to 1/2/3 or possibly further overcrowding the 4/5/6.  So even from GCT, I would say that the current F/M trains are plausible alternatives to 4/5/6 to reach 14th and 5th.  It is unfortunatly automatic for too many Metro-North customers that the only subway available to go south is the Lex line.  And of course, since B division cars are wider, they are going to be roomier than anything on the 4/5/6. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 12/29/2021 at 6:58 PM, mrsman said:

Witth regard to QBL, you are right that I envision a service that has a tight squeeze, but I don't envision it as being a problem.  This is a QBL express service that has three northern branches (JC, 179 via local, and 179 via express).  The current service has those same three branches as well, albeit the to 179 being a less frequent service then what I envision.  I want to make the 179 express a more frequent train to benefit the folks transferring from buses from Eastern Queens, as opposed to simply using the 179 express as a reliever for Jamaica Center.  When those three services come together in Forest Hills, they stay together for many miles with no merges or diverges until the Lower East Side.  And that is only done because I necessarily have to make room for the .  

You are correct that I am limited in my capacity for the QBL local, but the QBL local is already limited to 20 TPH due to issues at Forest Hills.  So if I am limited on that end, I might as well take those locals to a southern terminal that is also limited to 20 TPH - namely WTC.

Your  plan is definitely intriguing.  My two main hesitations are: [1] by running all locals on 63rd, you cut off QBL local stations west of Roosevelt from Long Island City, so my plans always send the local to 53rd, and [2] you are feeding trains from two different tunnels (53rd and 63rd) onto one set of Manhattan tracks (6th Ave local).  Assuming you use the full capacity on 6th Ave, you are absolutely unable to use the full capacity on 63rd since 1/3 of the 6th Ave trains are now going to 53rd.  Perhaps this is better, since 53rd is the busier tunnel and if one of the two should get full service, it should probably be 53rd.

I'll keep cracking at this.  Likely, I may revert to one of my earlier plans that seems to avoid many of these problems.

This one from August was one of my favorites:

 

 

 

Yes, it’s true that have the  local via 63rd cuts off LIC from the inner QBL local stations. This is also a reason why I backed off from this plan. At the time I came up with it (2019ish), I didn’t think it was necessary to preserve that access. But it probably is. So I see why you have the  local. But if you have the  local  via 53 and the  express via 63, then yes, 53 gets less service which wouldn’t be so good. The  has to go via 53, so having it plus one of the 6th Ave local services as the expresses in Queens keeps that busy corridor with a proper amount of service (at or near 30 tph).

Edited December 31, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[mrsman]

11 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Yes, it’s true that have the  local via 63rd cuts off LIC from the inner QBL local stations. This is also a reason why I backed off from this plan. At the time I came up with it (2019ish), I didn’t think it was necessary to preserve that access. But it probably is. So I see why you have the  local. But if you have the  local  via 53 and the  express via 63, then yes, 53 gets less service which wouldn’t be so good. The  has to go via 53, so having it plus one of the 6th Ave local services as the expresses in Queens keeps that busy corridor with a proper amount of service (at or near 30 tph).

My more recent plan, 12/30 at 10:32 am, cleans a lot of this up, but unfortunately utilizes the to maintain connection from QBL local to LIC.  I hate mixing in Broadway trains in the IND system, but am beginning to see that it becomes the only way to adequately provide enough service on all of the QBL system.  As I explain in my opening paragraph, the WTC terminal limits the 6th and 8th Ave lines to having only 7 services.  That means 3 services on CPW and 4 on QBL or vice versa.  The only way to get 4 CPW and 4 QBL is to have the 4th QBL service be either  or  .  Otherwise, we are relegated to only having one service on the QBL local.  So by using the  [sigh], I can run a QBL local on 63rd-6th and another QBL local on 60th-Broadway and maintain two QBL expresses on 53rd-8th.  More merges, but more overall service than my plan from 12/28 at 10:46am.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 12/31/2021 at 11:28 AM, mrsman said:

My more recent plan, 12/30 at 10:32 am, cleans a lot of this up, but unfortunately utilizes the to maintain connection from QBL local to LIC. I hate mixing in Broadway trains in the IND system, but am beginning to see that it becomes the only way to adequately provide enough service on all of the QBL system. As I explain in my opening paragraph, the WTC terminal limits the 6th and 8th Ave lines to having only 7 services.  That means 3 services on CPW and 4 on QBL or vice versa.  The only way to get 4 CPW and 4 QBL is to have the 4th QBL service be either  or  .  Otherwise, we are relegated to only having one service on the QBL local.  So by using the  [sigh], I can run a QBL local on 63rd-6th and another QBL local on 60th-Broadway and maintain two QBL expresses on 53rd-8th.  More merges, but more overall service than my plan from 12/28 at 10:46am.

It may very well be. A while back, I suggested running the  and  local and the  and  express, with the  to/from Astoria and the  replacing the  on 2nd Ave. It was here:

You’d still have the same merging in Manhattan that you have now between the ,  and . And you’d have the  merging between the  and  at Lexington-63rd. But the three merges in LIC that the current QBL and 60th St Tunnel patterns require would all be eliminated. As would the local/express switch at 34th (and Prince on weekends). I wonder if that could make for a less delay-prone QBL and Broadway Line (and the ability to run more frequent services when ridership eventually bounces back).

Edited January 2, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Amiri the subway guy]

I hear many people wanting to extend the train so here’s my proposal  

Here’s an idea I though up for extending the train build a 10th Avenue 42nd Street station and extending flushing further south to Chelsea 23rd Street an area which is developing with many office and business buildings more job opportunities are growing so a another Manhattan station will be needed. but East Queens is the REAL transit desert Flushing is in dire need of improved subway transportation.  

The train is seeing continued growth and with the introduction of CBTC signalling it is able to run more trains per hour. 
the train was supposed to extend further into Northeastern Queens to serve College Point, or Bayside. However, funding for the extension dried up during the Great Depression.  

Since Main Street was never designed to have this many riders it meant dangerous backups at the station and the surrounding streets. This makes it hard for Flushing residents to walk or drive on the surrounding streets, which decreases their quality of life. So I all in for a northeast queens flushing line extension. I noticed on the IND second system track map there were calls for extensions either to College Points or Bayside what extension I believe is necessary, BOTH. Both area are transit deserts that need subway service. However doing so will cause confusion for what northern terminal the train will head to.  

I heard that flushing riders are already confused on which train is local and which is express. 
So to prevent another train like Rockway or Lefferts dilemma I propose splitting the current single Flushing service into two services by creating a new train. All train would now be labeled as trains a win win for everyone since people on flushing will FINALLY be able to tell the locals and expresses apart from each other much easier. Express service would run at rush hour, as it does now.     
College Point Branch

The current train would be extended to College Point Blvd via 149th Street and 11th avenue stopping at 
Bayside 32nd avenue
25th avenue
19th avenue
14th avenue
Malba Dr
132nd Street
And finally College Point Blvd

Bayside Branch
The new proposed train route would run down 221 Street Bayside via Station Road and 39th avenue stopping at 
Northern Blvd 162nd Street
Utopia Parkway
Francis Lewis Blvd
210th Street
Bell Blvd
And finally 221st Street Bayside

For the announcements I instead to find I new actress to voice the 8 train announcements and redo the 7 train announcements because the current set sounds horrible    Just pretend that the 8 train is purple in this post

And there that’s how you do a Flushing extension

[shiznit1987]

This plan of mine involves several re-arriangements to improve Brooklyn service:

First, the Broadway Local tracks will be connected to the north side of the Manhattan Bridge. This means that now all four MB tracks will feed into the Broadway Line. The  will become the Brighton Local with the  being the Brighton Express. This allows for Dekalb to be deinterlined. 

Second, the  trains after Broadway-Lafayette will be tied into the Nassau St Line with the  running to Jamaica Center and the  running through the Nassau St subway/Montague Tunnel to the 4th Ave local, heading to Bay Ridge. The  will be retained as a Metropolitan Ave to Chambers St service to allow for those who still want to travel from Broadway-Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan. Also, CPW will be deinterlined with the  going to 207th and the  to 205th via CPW express.  trains run to 168th via CPW local

Third, with the Lower Manhattan section of the Broadway line now severed from the rest of the route, my proposal is to connect the  train to the Broadway Line tracks at World Trade Center, making the 's terminal Whitehall St. This is critical since having a three track terminal for the  will enable it to run more service if the day ever comes the Queens Blvd bypass is built. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

20 hours ago, shiznit1987 said:

This plan of mine involves several re-arriangements to improve Brooklyn service:

First, the Broadway Local tracks will be connected to the north side of the Manhattan Bridge. This means that now all four MB tracks will feed into the Broadway Line. The  will become the Brighton Local with the  being the Brighton Express. This allows for Dekalb to be deinterlined. 

Second, the  trains after Broadway-Lafayette will be tied into the Nassau St Line with the  running to Jamaica Center and the  running through the Nassau St subway/Montague Tunnel to the 4th Ave local, heading to Bay Ridge. The  will be retained as a Metropolitan Ave to Chambers St service to allow for those who still want to travel from Broadway-Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan. Also, CPW will be deinterlined with the  going to 207th and the  to 205th via CPW express.  trains run to 168th via CPW local

Third, with the Lower Manhattan section of the Broadway line now severed from the rest of the route, my proposal is to connect the  train to the Broadway Line tracks at World Trade Center, making the 's terminal Whitehall St. This is critical since having a three track terminal for the  will enable it to run more service if the day ever comes the Queens Blvd bypass is built. 

So what happens to the  and  and the Broadway Express tracks in this scenario? What's going to run on the Sea Beach and West End lines in South Brooklyn?

Wouldn't it be easier to just do this?

Edited January 20, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[shiznit1987]

32 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

So what happens to the  and  and the Broadway Express tracks in this scenario? What's going to run on the Sea Beach and West End lines in South Brooklyn?

Wouldn't it be easier to just do this?

The  and  run down the Sea Beach and West End respectivley via the Bridge/Broadway Express

[Theli11]

6 hours ago, shiznit1987 said:

This plan of mine involves several re-arriangements to improve Brooklyn service:

First, the Broadway Local tracks will be connected to the north side of the Manhattan Bridge. This means that now all four MB tracks will feed into the Broadway Line. The  will become the Brighton Local with the  being the Brighton Express. This allows for Dekalb to be deinterlined. 

Second, the  trains after Broadway-Lafayette will be tied into the Nassau St Line with the  running to Jamaica Center and the  running through the Nassau St subway/Montague Tunnel to the 4th Ave local, heading to Bay Ridge. The  will be retained as a Metropolitan Ave to Chambers St service to allow for those who still want to travel from Broadway-Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan. Also, CPW will be deinterlined with the  going to 207th and the  to 205th via CPW express.  trains run to 168th via CPW local

Third, with the Lower Manhattan section of the Broadway line now severed from the rest of the route, my proposal is to connect the  train to the Broadway Line tracks at World Trade Center, making the 's terminal Whitehall St. This is critical since having a three track terminal for the  will enable it to run more service if the day ever comes the Queens Blvd bypass is built. 

Not the worst plan I've seen, but I don't think it's physically possible for to connect Lower Nassau St Line to 6th Avenue without some really tight 180. You'd also be forcing the CPW express to be entirely comprised of 8-car trains since the Jamaica and Nassau lines both are only 8 cars with no extra platform space to be made. 

[mrsman]

One thing very nice about shiznit1987's plan is that it puts in place a transfer between both Manhattan Bridge services.  While I personally see no issue with sending all Brighton trains to Broadway express and 4th Ave express to the 6th Ave express, I know that others are concerned that doing so prevents Brighton passengers from reaching 6th and 4th passengers from reaching Broadway*, so somehting like shiznit's plan allows all Manhattan Bridge customers to reach the same parts of Manhattan, thanks to the ability to transfer between  [Broadway express - 4th Ave] and  [Broadway local - Brighton] at Canal St.

One of my earlier plans had somtething similar.  I imagine the northside of Manhattan Bridge tied to the Broadway express (as was done pre-Chrystie).  The southside of Manhattan Bridge will be tied in to new track under the existing tracks along Canal.**  This lower level Canal tracks will make a stop under the existing Canal Street station (similar layout as the W4th station) to provide a transfer station.  The lower level tracks will continue to 6th Ave an merge in at that point to become the 8th Ave express.

What this boils down to is the following system (without worrying about what happens north of Midtown):

 8th Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach/West End

 8th Ave local - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton lines

 6th Ave express - Rutgers Tunnel - CUlver 

 6th Ave local - Williamsburg Bridge - Jamacia/Myrtle

 Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton lines

 Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge or 9th Ave [or Bay Parkway]

 

WIth something like the above, every passenger that now has a direct link to Manhattan Bridge will still do so.   All Manhattan Bridge passengers will have their first Manhattan stop at Canal, which provides links to 8th Ave express or Broadway express, and existing transfers to Broadway local,  , and whatever is running along Nassau.  If the Nassau tracks were tied in to Second Ave, then the one Canal station can basically connect directly with every part of Manhattan.

 

* My usual response to this argument is that it isn't too important since 6th and Broadway run close throughout nearly all of Midtown.  The responsse then is how to get to 8th Ave.  If all Brighton trains ran to Broadway, we lose the  that connects to W4th which connects to 8th Ave trains.  The above plan avoids that since transfers to 8th Ave can be had at Canal.

** Altrenatively, the tracks can run along Walker to connect the Canal St station with 6th Ave (where 8th Ave lines run south of Houston).

 

[Wallyhorse]

On 1/20/2022 at 11:17 AM, Theli11 said:

Not the worst plan I've seen, but I don't think it's physically possible for to connect Lower Nassau St Line to 6th Avenue without some really tight 180. You'd also be forcing the CPW express to be entirely comprised of 8-car trains since the Jamaica and Nassau lines both are only 8 cars with no extra platform space to be made. 

Actually, I believe nine cars since except for Metropolitan Avenue, most stations used to have eight-car trains for 67' BMT Standards stop there, so in a tight setup you could have nine-car trains run on most stations there.

For 10-car trains, around 65-70 feet of extension space would be required for the Eastern Division stations (Metropolitan Avenue would need 120 feet). 

[shiznit1987]

Thinking about it some more, I'd like to amend my plan:

The Broadway Local tracks will still be tied into the Manhattan Bridge, so that all four Manhattan Bridge Tracks feed into Broadway. The service pattern would look like this:

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - Sea Beach

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - West End

 Broadway Local - Brighton Local

 Broadway Local - Brighton Express

 Nassau St Subway - Montague - 4th Ave Local to Bay Ridge

Now that Southern Brooklyn is taken care of, the  trains are extended down Water St thru Lower Manhattan to a new tunnel to Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn where they take over the Atlantic Branch of the LIRR. The  curves off down Utica Ave to Kings Plaza while the  continues to Jamaica where it is tied into the Archer Ave Subway. Archer Ave is extended one stop to Archer/Merrick to a new 4 track terminal ala 179st with turnback tracks. The service pattern looks like this:

 207th St/Inwood - Kings Plaza (CPW Express)

 205th St/Norwood - Merrick/Archer (CPW Express)

 168st/Wash Hts - CPW Local - 8th Ave

Benefits:

-Dekalb Ave and Columbus Circle are de-interlined. 

-Southern Brooklyn passengers can still get 6th Ave service at Atlantic

-Much needed relief for Queens Blvd and SE Queens with the new  service

-Utica Ave subway can be more easily completed as an elevated, helping speed construction and lower costs

 

[mrsman]

3 hours ago, shiznit1987 said:

Thinking about it some more, I'd like to amend my plan:

The Broadway Local tracks will still be tied into the Manhattan Bridge, so that all four Manhattan Bridge Tracks feed into Broadway. The service pattern would look like this:

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - Sea Beach

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - West End

 Broadway Local - Brighton Local

 Broadway Local - Brighton Express

 Nassau St Subway - Montague - 4th Ave Local to Bay Ridge

Now that Southern Brooklyn is taken care of, the  trains are extended down Water St thru Lower Manhattan to a new tunnel to Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn where they take over the Atlantic Branch of the LIRR. The  curves off down Utica Ave to Kings Plaza while the  continues to Jamaica where it is tied into the Archer Ave Subway. Archer Ave is extended one stop to Archer/Merrick to a new 4 track terminal ala 179st with turnback tracks. The service pattern looks like this:

 207th St/Inwood - Kings Plaza (CPW Express)

 205th St/Norwood - Merrick/Archer (CPW Express)

 168st/Wash Hts - CPW Local - 8th Ave

Benefits:

-Dekalb Ave and Columbus Circle are de-interlined. 

-Southern Brooklyn passengers can still get 6th Ave service at Atlantic

-Much needed relief for Queens Blvd and SE Queens with the new  service

-Utica Ave subway can be more easily completed as an elevated, helping speed construction and lower costs

 

This is definitely very interesting.  I do have a few questions:

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - Sea Beach

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - West End

 Broadway Local - Brighton Local

 Broadway Local - Brighton Express

Do you change any of the northern terminals for these lines?  Currently, of course, we have N and W to Astoria, R to QBL and Q to 96th.  Do you envision any change to that to relieve the merge along the Broadway line, like sending all expresses to 96th and perhaps changing the frequency of trains so that there is more Astoria W service?

 Nassau St Subway - Montague - 4th Ave Local to Bay Ridge

Will  still begin at Parsons/Archer and be extended to Bay Ridge, or will  have its "northern" terminal in Manhattan?

 207th St/Inwood - Kings Plaza (CPW Express)

 205th St/Norwood - Merrick/Archer (CPW Express)

 179 St - QBL express - 6th Ave local - Culver line

 Forest Hills - QBL local - 6th Ave local - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle line

I assume that the alignment for 6th Ave will be as above.  So  will head to Grand St. and then follow the MTA proposed routing of the SAS to Water Street and then via new tunnel to Atlantic Ave.  Does this mean no plans for SAS in Lower Manhattan?  Will there be a transfer to other trains at Fulton?  Are there any plans for SAS other than the existing portion north of 63rd?  Will  be a super express that only stops at the current LIRR stations along Atlantic or are more stops envisioned?  Does  replace the  train east of East New York?  How will  fit into the Archer Ave subway?

 168st/Wash Hts - CPW Local - 8th Ave

WIll A and C also be the local south of Columbus Circle?  If not, how would A and C move to the express tracks and not interfere with the running of ?  I would assume that A and C will run along Cranberry tunnel to the Fulton line in Brooklyn as current, while the  takes over the Broadway BMT tracks south of WTC to terminate at Whitehall, as you posited earlier.  Does this mean a "Canal Flip" along the 8th Ave tracks, with running express between 42nd and Canal, and then flipping to the local to reach  WTC and then Rector and Whitehall?  This would also presuppose closing City Hall  and Courtlandt .

All in all this is very interesting and it seems to accomplish a lot with very little construction.

[BreeddekalbL]

@mrsman how do you send the  to kings plaza?

[shiznit1987]

Quote

 

This is definitely very interesting.  I do have a few questions:

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - Sea Beach

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - West End

 Broadway Local - Brighton Local

 Broadway Local - Brighton Express

Do you change any of the northern terminals for these lines?  Currently, of course, we have N and W to Astoria, R to QBL and Q to 96th.  Do you envision any change to that to relieve the  merge along the Broadway line, like sending all expresses to 96th and perhaps changing the frequency of trains so that there is more Astoria W service?

 

Thank you for your questions and detailed consideration of my plan!

Here's a more detailed layout:

Broadway Service Plan (Operating hours are "All Times" unless otherwise denoted)

 96st/2nd Av - Broadway Exp/Bridge - Sea Beach.  

 179th St/Hillside - QB Express - Broadway Exp/Bridge - West End. 

 71st/Forest Hills - QB Local - Broadway Local/Bridge - Brighton Local. 

 Astoria-Ditmars - Broadway Local/Bridge - Brighton Express. Weekends and Late Nights service turns back @ Prospect Park, Brooklyn

Queens Blvd Service Plan (Operating hours are "All Times" unless otherwise denoted)

 53rd St - QB Express - Parsons Archer

 53rd St - QB Local - Forest Hills. Late Nights service terminates at 57th St/6th Ave

 63rd St - QB Express - 179th/Hillside

 60th St - QB Local - Forest Hills 

6th Ave Service Plan (Operating Hours are "All Times" except where denoted):

 207th/Inwood - CPW Express/6th Av Express - Water St/Atlantic Ave tunnel - Atlantic Branch LIRR - Utica Ave El to Kings Plaza

 205th St/Norwood - CPW Express/6th Ave Express - Water St/Atlantic Ave tunnel - Atlantic Branch LIRR to Jamaica

 Coney Island via Culver Line - 6th Ave Local - 53rd St - QB Local to Forest Hills. Late Nights terminates at 57th/6th

 57th/6th Ave - 6th Ave Local - Broadway/Brooklyn - Myrtle Ave line to Metropolitan Ave. Late Nights Metropolitan to Myrtle Av shuttle.

Quote

 

Nassau St Subway - Montague - 4th Ave Local to Bay Ridge 

Will  still begin at Parsons/Archer and be extended to Bay Ridge, or will  have its "northern" terminal in Manhattan? 

 

The  will continue it's current service pattern to Parsons/Archer. 

 

Quote

So  will head to Grand St. and then follow the MTA proposed routing of the SAS to Water Street and then via new tunnel to Atlantic Ave.  Does this mean no plans for SAS in Lower Manhattan?  Will there be a transfer to other trains at Fulton?  Are there any plans for SAS other than the existing portion north of 63rd?  Will  be a super express that only stops at the current LIRR stations along Atlantic or are more stops envisioned?  Does  replace the  train east of East New York?  How will  fit into the Archer Ave subway?  

To your first point: Yes, my new trains follow roughly the original SAS route for Lower Manhattan. As far as SAS to Lower Manhattan I've always been of the belief we can find room for it on Nassau and this plan doesn't change that. With only  service right now a Lower Manhattan SAS can turn around at Chambers quite easily. Unfortunetly, Water St is too far for a realistic Fulton St tie-in but keep in mind the  is going to have access to a tremendous amount of trains @ Atlantic Terminal. As far as the Atlantic Brach of the LIRR, the Nostrand Ave station will be discontinued with the only two stops in Brooklyn being Atlantic Terminal and East NY. My idea is I want the  to take a load off the  in Jamaica thus to keep this competitive I want the  with fewer stops. As it stands taking a  train to 53rd/7th would be a 9 stop journey from Supthin/Archer while my new  service is also 9 stops to 53rd/7th Ave. As far as tying into Archer Ave the idea is to build the connection around where Bolding's Landing is now with a new tunnel. The Archer Ave subway will be extended to Archer/Merrick with a 4 track terminal ala 179st and 8 turnback tracks on two levels for maximum capacity. 

 

Quote

 

168st/Wash Hts - CPW Local - 8th Ave 

WIll A and C also be the local south of Columbus Circle?  If not, how would A and C move to the express tracks and not interfere with the running of ?  I would assume that A and C will run along Cranberry tunnel to the Fulton line in Brooklyn as current, while the  takes over the Broadway BMT tracks south of WTC to terminate at Whitehall, as you posited earlier.  Does this mean a "Canal Flip" along the 8th Ave tracks, with  running express between 42nd and Canal, and then flipping to the local to reach  WTC and then Rector and Whitehall?  This would also presuppose closing City Hall  and Courtlandt .

 

New switches will be installed between 50th St and 59th sts on the 8th Ave line to allow for the  and  to go from the Local to Express tracks. At 50th St, the station platforms will be extended over the existing local tracks to meet the current express tracks to serve  and  trains.  and  trains will run express in Manhattan south of 59th St to Brooklyn while the  will have the 8th Ave local all to itself meaning no merges @ Canal St. The Lower Manhattan Broadway Line will be taken over by an extended  to Whitehall St giving it a better terminal than today's WTC. 

 

Quote

All in all this is very interesting and it seems to accomplish a lot with very little construction.

That's the goal  !

[Vulturious]

6 hours ago, shiznit1987 said:

Thank you for your questions and detailed consideration of my plan!

Here's a more detailed layout:

Broadway Service Plan (Operating hours are "All Times" unless otherwise denoted)

 96st/2nd Av - Broadway Exp/Bridge - Sea Beach.  

 179th St/Hillside - QB Express - Broadway Exp/Bridge - West End. 

 71st/Forest Hills - QB Local - Broadway Local/Bridge - Brighton Local. 

 Astoria-Ditmars - Broadway Local/Bridge - Brighton Express. Weekends and Late Nights service turns back @ Prospect Park, Brooklyn

Queens Blvd Service Plan (Operating hours are "All Times" unless otherwise denoted)

 53rd St - QB Express - Parsons Archer

 53rd St - QB Local - Forest Hills. Late Nights service terminates at 57th St/6th Ave

 63rd St - QB Express - 179th/Hillside

 60th St - QB Local - Forest Hills 

6th Ave Service Plan (Operating Hours are "All Times" except where denoted):

 207th/Inwood - CPW Express/6th Av Express - Water St/Atlantic Ave tunnel - Atlantic Branch LIRR - Utica Ave El to Kings Plaza

 205th St/Norwood - CPW Express/6th Ave Express - Water St/Atlantic Ave tunnel - Atlantic Branch LIRR to Jamaica

 Coney Island via Culver Line - 6th Ave Local - 53rd St - QB Local to Forest Hills. Late Nights terminates at 57th/6th

 57th/6th Ave - 6th Ave Local - Broadway/Brooklyn - Myrtle Ave line to Metropolitan Ave. Late Nights Metropolitan to Myrtle Av shuttle.

The  will continue it's current service pattern to Parsons/Archer. 

 

To your first point: Yes, my new trains follow roughly the original SAS route for Lower Manhattan. As far as SAS to Lower Manhattan I've always been of the belief we can find room for it on Nassau and this plan doesn't change that. With only  service right now a Lower Manhattan SAS can turn around at Chambers quite easily. Unfortunetly, Water St is too far for a realistic Fulton St tie-in but keep in mind the  is going to have access to a tremendous amount of trains @ Atlantic Terminal. As far as the Atlantic Brach of the LIRR, the Nostrand Ave station will be discontinued with the only two stops in Brooklyn being Atlantic Terminal and East NY. My idea is I want the  to take a load off the  in Jamaica thus to keep this competitive I want the  with fewer stops. As it stands taking a  train to 53rd/7th would be a 9 stop journey from Supthin/Archer while my new  service is also 9 stops to 53rd/7th Ave. As far as tying into Archer Ave the idea is to build the connection around where Bolding's Landing is now with a new tunnel. The Archer Ave subway will be extended to Archer/Merrick with a 4 track terminal ala 179st and 8 turnback tracks on two levels for maximum capacity. 

 

New switches will be installed between 50th St and 59th sts on the 8th Ave line to allow for the  and  to go from the Local to Express tracks. At 50th St, the station platforms will be extended over the existing local tracks to meet the current express tracks to serve  and  trains.  and  trains will run express in Manhattan south of 59th St to Brooklyn while the  will have the 8th Ave local all to itself meaning no merges @ Canal St. The Lower Manhattan Broadway Line will be taken over by an extended  to Whitehall St giving it a better terminal than today's WTC. 

 

That's the goal  !

This is a rather interesting idea that still is going to be pretty expensive to pull off. Here are my thoughts on this whole thing:

Starting off with the  and , I think it would be better to keep the  as the Brighton Express and the  running local. The  currently cuts back from operating anywhere north of Whitehall St because the  has it covered for the most part as well as the  along QBL. If the  were to operate express, it would allow for the  to just cut back entirely during late nights pretty much similar to the , it would also be better and give more incentive for riders taking the  to stick with it rather than just straight up getting off and transfer over to another line to get to Queens.

Speaking of Queens, I don't see any reason to reroute the  along QBL replacing the  to Jamaica-179 St. There is no difference in running the way service runs today and in this proposal, either the  and  would still be waiting outside of Queens Plaza as well as the  and  around 36 St. Nothing is being solved here so it's better off to just let the  stay away from QBL or have the  run local along QBL with the . 

Your plan for the  and  is pretty cool, I never thought I would see the conversion of the LIRR Atlantic Branch be brought up again. Although, that would be hard to acquire as I highly doubt the LIRR would be willing enough to give up. However if we were to look past that, I do have a few things that should be changed here. Getting rid of Nostrand Av isn't a good idea, better to keep that around as an alternative for riders along Fulton St. Not only that, but at least the  would still have one extra station before turning off towards the Utica Av line. It would be better to add in at least a few stations (not too much) to at least provide alternatives for both the Fulton St and Jamaica Av lines. There shouldn't be a need to be competitive, although now that I think about it you're probably trying to have some sort of Super Express service. It's not a bad idea, but even with a few extra stations give or take 2 or 3 new ones, they would still be pretty far apart. Just my though.

This last one is definitely something I think should be changed almost entirely. It would be better to have the  and 's northern terminals not be the same, maybe having the  operate back to Bedford Park Blvd while the  continuing to 168 St. Although, I definitely would say the  should be the one to run into South Brooklyn rather than the . The  has no reason to run into South Brooklyn, the line would be carrying air most of the time. Running the  would be the better replacement to the missing 4 Av service for the  as riders would have more incentive to just stay on it. I could still definitely see people transferring over to the  or  the first chance they get, but the  would still carry more people than the .

[mrsman]

On 1/26/2022 at 3:56 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

@mrsman how do you send the  to kings plaza?

This was a comment on shiznit1987's plan.  Basically  along a new tunnel to Atlantic Ave and then  goes south along Utica Ave on new elevated tracks and  follows the Atlantic LIRR tracks to Jamaica.

 

On 1/26/2022 at 11:37 PM, Vulturious said:

Starting off with the  and , I think it would be better to keep the  as the Brighton Express and the  running local. The  currently cuts back from operating anywhere north of Whitehall St because the  has it covered for the most part as well as the  along QBL. If the  were to operate express, it would allow for the  to just cut back entirely during late nights pretty much similar to the , it would also be better and give more incentive for riders taking the  to stick with it rather than just straight up getting off and transfer over to another line to get to Queens.

I agree with this.   as the only Astoria route will be 24 hours, so it will make sense that the 24 hour Brighton local be attached to it and the part time express be attached to the part time  service.

 

On 1/26/2022 at 11:37 PM, Vulturious said:

Speaking of Queens, I don't see any reason to reroute the  along QBL replacing the  to Jamaica-179 St. There is no difference in running the way service runs today and in this proposal, either the  and  would still be waiting outside of Queens Plaza as well as the  and  around 36 St. Nothing is being solved here so it's better off to just let the  stay away from QBL or have the  run local along QBL with the . 

I also agree, but I do like the idea of  as the local and  as the express on QBL.  This means that the two traditional QBL express services remain E and F and both lines remain on the 53rd tunnel to Manhattan. It means less switching at Queens Plaza area.  E,F, Q 24 hour runs, with no R service late nights.  This is basically swapping the current F and M services through the tunnels and then having Q take over M's routing into Queens.  I think Q is a better train than M for the QBL local, because it can have longer train sets and it also provides a faster servcie to Lower Manhattan, given that the Q is express.  (OK a transfer will be needed at Canal to reach Lower Manhattan).

 

On 1/26/2022 at 11:37 PM, Vulturious said:

Your plan for the  and  is pretty cool, I never thought I would see the conversion of the LIRR Atlantic Branch be brought up again. Although, that would be hard to acquire as I highly doubt the LIRR would be willing enough to give up. However if we were to look past that, I do have a few things that should be changed here. Getting rid of Nostrand Av isn't a good idea, better to keep that around as an alternative for riders along Fulton St. Not only that, but at least the  would still have one extra station before turning off towards the Utica Av line. It would be better to add in at least a few stations (not too much) to at least provide alternatives for both the Fulton St and Jamaica Av lines. There shouldn't be a need to be competitive, although now that I think about it you're probably trying to have some sort of Super Express service. It's not a bad idea, but even with a few extra stations give or take 2 or 3 new ones, they would still be pretty far apart. Just my though.

I like it as well.  If LIRR, as planned, decides to trun the Atlanic line into a Jamiaica-Flatbush shuttle, they don't deserve it.  If the line is no longer going to connect to service to Nassau County, why should it be under LIRR jurisdiction.  If LIRR would prefer to run all of their trains on the main line to GCT or Penn, then they really don't need Atlantic anymore.  Let it be run as a subway.  I also agree that a few stops would be key.  I don't see this as needing to compete with  for Midtown service, let  be competitive for Lower Manhattan service.  If Jamaica passengers bound for the area below 14th can be coaxed off  that would be helpful enough.  I can see stations at Franklin (the transfer to  IMO is more important than  at Nostrand), Troy (just west of where the Utica line will branch off), East New York transfer to , Woodhaven (transfer to a future RBB service of some kind), Lefferts (a station here will make it easier to turn  Lefferts into a full time shuttle and having all existing trains run to the Rockaways), and then Sutphin Blvd (connection to most LIRR services).  The will be the express station that this section of Brooklyn/Queens needs since both of the existing services JZ and A between East New York and Jamaica run long sections of all-stop service. 

Could the dreamer in me have the line continue to Laurelton or Rosedale as a subway takin over the Rosedale-Jamiaca section of the Atlantic line and forcing all of the south shore lines travel via St Albans?  Frequent subway service would be far better appreciated in SE Queens. 

 

On 1/26/2022 at 11:37 PM, Vulturious said:

This last one is definitely something I think should be changed almost entirely. It would be better to have the  and 's northern terminals not be the same, maybe having the  operate back to Bedford Park Blvd while the  continuing to 168 St. Although, I definitely would say the  should be the one to run into South Brooklyn rather than the . The  has no reason to run into South Brooklyn, the line would be carrying air most of the time. Running the  would be the better replacement to the missing 4 Av service for the  as riders would have more incentive to just stay on it. I could still definitely see people transferring over to the  or  the first chance they get, but the  would still carry more people than the .

Agreed.  AC service as teh CPW local replaces CB service today, one service to 168th and one service as the Concourse local.

E service south of WTC replaces R.  Running this to Bay Ridge would likely be more popular than J, and E is connected to Jamaica Yard, so it should be fine.  It would be nice to have 8th Ave service to southern Brooklyn.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:59 PM, Amiri the subway guy said:

I hear many people wanting to extend the train so here’s my proposal  

Here’s an idea I though up for extending the train build a 10th Avenue 42nd Street station and extending flushing further south to Chelsea 23rd Street an area which is developing with many office and business buildings more job opportunities are growing so a another Manhattan station will be needed. but East Queens is the REAL transit desert Flushing is in dire need of improved subway transportation.  

The train is seeing continued growth and with the introduction of CBTC signalling it is able to run more trains per hour. 
the train was supposed to extend further into Northeastern Queens to serve College Point, or Bayside. However, funding for the extension dried up during the Great Depression.  

Since Main Street was never designed to have this many riders it meant dangerous backups at the station and the surrounding streets. This makes it hard for Flushing residents to walk or drive on the surrounding streets, which decreases their quality of life. So I all in for a northeast queens flushing line extension. I noticed on the IND second system track map there were calls for extensions either to College Points or Bayside what extension I believe is necessary, BOTH. Both area are transit deserts that need subway service. However doing so will cause confusion for what northern terminal the train will head to.  

I heard that flushing riders are already confused on which train is local and which is express. 
So to prevent another train like Rockway or Lefferts dilemma I propose splitting the current single Flushing service into two services by creating a new train. All train would now be labeled as trains a win win for everyone since people on flushing will FINALLY be able to tell the locals and expresses apart from each other much easier. Express service would run at rush hour, as it does now.     
College Point Branch

The current train would be extended to College Point Blvd via 149th Street and 11th avenue stopping at 
Bayside 32nd avenue
25th avenue
19th avenue
14th avenue
Malba Dr
132nd Street
And finally College Point Blvd

Bayside Branch
The new proposed train route would run down 221 Street Bayside via Station Road and 39th avenue stopping at 
Northern Blvd 162nd Street
Utopia Parkway
Francis Lewis Blvd
210th Street
Bell Blvd
And finally 221st Street Bayside

For the announcements I instead to find I new actress to voice the 8 train announcements and redo the 7 train announcements because the current set sounds horrible    Just pretend that the 8 train is purple in this post

And there that’s how you do a Flushing extension

I’d be all in for a Flushing extension too. I’d likely stop using the QM20 if I had a  or  line stop near me in Whitestone. It’s much too far for me to walk to and from the LIRR at Auburndale most days (if the weather is in the 50s thru 70s with no rain I can do it, but that’s it). But I’d have the  stay on Northern all the way to 221st/Springfield Blvd because Northern is a wide commercial street and most of the others are residential (like Station Road and 39th Avenue). I’d use  because it’s “the other purple line,” but only the R62As can display it and none of the newer A-Division trains can display a route number greater than . 

Interesting how you mentioned replacing the  designation with a purple . Transit actually had the chance to do this 20 years ago when they could have used the existing  sign on the rolls when they sent R62As from the  and  lines over to the . But no, they kept the , citing that it would actually cause confusion to change it to . 

Edited February 2, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 1/26/2022 at 11:37 PM, Vulturious said:

This is a rather interesting idea that still is going to be pretty expensive to pull off. Here are my thoughts on this whole thing:

Starting off with the  and , I think it would be better to keep the  as the Brighton Express and the  running local. The  currently cuts back from operating anywhere north of Whitehall St because the  has it covered for the most part as well as the  along QBL. If the  were to operate express, it would allow for the  to just cut back entirely during late nights pretty much similar to the , it would also be better and give more incentive for riders taking the  to stick with it rather than just straight up getting off and transfer over to another line to get to Queens.

Speaking of Queens, I don't see any reason to reroute the  along QBL replacing the  to Jamaica-179 St. There is no difference in running the way service runs today and in this proposal, either the  and  would still be waiting outside of Queens Plaza as well as the  and  around 36 St. Nothing is being solved here so it's better off to just let the  stay away from QBL or have the  run local along QBL with the . 

Your plan for the  and  is pretty cool, I never thought I would see the conversion of the LIRR Atlantic Branch be brought up again. Although, that would be hard to acquire as I highly doubt the LIRR would be willing enough to give up. However if we were to look past that, I do have a few things that should be changed here. Getting rid of Nostrand Av isn't a good idea, better to keep that around as an alternative for riders along Fulton St. Not only that, but at least the  would still have one extra station before turning off towards the Utica Av line. It would be better to add in at least a few stations (not too much) to at least provide alternatives for both the Fulton St and Jamaica Av lines. There shouldn't be a need to be competitive, although now that I think about it you're probably trying to have some sort of Super Express service. It's not a bad idea, but even with a few extra stations give or take 2 or 3 new ones, they would still be pretty far apart. Just my though.

This last one is definitely something I think should be changed almost entirely. It would be better to have the  and 's northern terminals not be the same, maybe having the  operate back to Bedford Park Blvd while the  continuing to 168 St. Although, I definitely would say the  should be the one to run into South Brooklyn rather than the . The  has no reason to run into South Brooklyn, the line would be carrying air most of the time. Running the  would be the better replacement to the missing 4 Av service for the  as riders would have more incentive to just stay on it. I could still definitely see people transferring over to the  or  the first chance they get, but the  would still carry more people than the .

Agreed. That connection connecting the  local tracks to the Manhattan Bridge north side tracks alone is going to be one hell of task. And wouldn't extending the  require demolition of the WTC Mall? After spending nearly $4 billion on the giant stegosaurus, I don't think the PA are going to go for tearing it up.

The only way I'd be in favor of running the  on QBL is if it runs via 63rd St and express with the , while the  and  run local to/from 71st-Continental. Having a local  merge with an express  between 36th St and Queens Plaza on top of the  merge that's already there is a recipe for disaster.

Edited February 7, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Vulturious]

21 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Agreed. That connection connecting the  local tracks to the Manhattan Bridge north side tracks alone is going to be one hell of task. And wouldn't extending the  require demolition of the WTC Mall? After spending nearly $4 billion on the giant stegosaurus, I don't think the PA are going to go for tearing it up.

Wait, the  would be going through what? Well there goes that idea of wanting better Bay Ridge and 4 Av local service. Maybe they can do something really cool with that, maybe surround the extension with glass going through the complex, have a bridge above so people can better cross from one side of the complex to the other. The PA wouldn't necessarily have to tear up the place.

[mrsman]

It is certainly a hard ask to destroy billions of dollars in relatively recent construction to push  trains onto the Montague tunnel.

I wonder if we can roll back a bit to something I had alluded to back on January 20 upthread.*  Namely, providing subway service from the Manhattan Bridge that will run along Canal Street west of Broadway and then heading up 6th Ave in the neighborhood of the Holland Tunnel.  

I imagine the northside of Manhattan Bridge tied to the Broadway express (as was done pre-Chrystie).  The southside of Manhattan Bridge will be tied in to new track under the existing tracks along Canal. This lower level Canal tracks will make a stop under the existing Canal Street station (similar layout as the W4th station) to provide a transfer station.  The lower level tracks will continue to 6th Ave and turn north underneath the 8th Ave express line.  The lower level will then rise up and become the local tracks that parallel the 8th Ave express, stopping at Spring St, and then utilize the W4th switches to become the 6th Ave local.  At the same time, the 8th Ave locals will utilize the W4th tracks to head east on Houston. 

The 8th Ave locals will be local along Houston street and the 6th Ave express will be express on Houston street.  Both services will provide cross-platform transfer at Broadway-Laffayette.  Then, the expresses will be routed toward the Rutgers tunnel and the locals will be routed to the Williamsburg Bridge.

What this boils down to is the following system, adding in other bits of deinterlining that may be helpful.  Only the new canal subway will be new construction:

 207 [A] or 205 [C] - CPW express - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton lines to Euclid, Lefferts, or the Rockaways

 [M] Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd - 8th Ave local - W4th switch - Houston Street - Williamsburg Bridge - Jamacia/Myrtle 

 168th or BPB [D] - CPW local - 6th Ave express - Houston Street - Rutgers Tunnel - Culver.  B will be full-time Culver local and D will be part-time Culver express.    

 [K]   179th [F] or Jamaica Center [K] - QBL express - 63rd - 6th Ave local - W4th switch - New Canal subway - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach/West End  

2nd Ave - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton lines  

Astoria - 60th - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge.  [Yard access to Coney Island during out of service times along Sea Beach.]

 

* Slight difference is that this plan will have the New Canal subway tie into the local tracks, not the 8th Ave express.

 

 

[mrsman]

1 minute ago, mrsman said:

It is certainly a hard ask to destroy billions of dollars in relatively recent construction to push  trains onto the Montague tunnel.

I wonder if we can roll back a bit to something I had alluded to back on January 20 upthread.*  Namely, providing subway service from the Manhattan Bridge that will run along Canal Street west of Broadway and then heading up 6th Ave in the neighborhood of the Holland Tunnel.  

I imagine the northside of Manhattan Bridge tied to the Broadway express (as was done pre-Chrystie).  The southside of Manhattan Bridge will be tied in to new track under the existing tracks along Canal. This lower level Canal tracks will make a stop under the existing Canal Street station (similar layout as the W4th station) to provide a transfer station.  The lower level tracks will continue to 6th Ave and turn north underneath the 8th Ave express line.  The lower level will then rise up and become the local tracks that parallel the 8th Ave express, stopping at Spring St, and then utilize the W4th switches to become the 6th Ave local.  At the same time, the 8th Ave locals will utilize the W4th tracks to head east on Houston. 

The 8th Ave locals will be local along Houston street and the 6th Ave express will be express on Houston street.  Both services will provide cross-platform transfer at Broadway-Laffayette.  Then, the expresses will be routed toward the Rutgers tunnel and the locals will be routed to the Williamsburg Bridge.

What this boils down to is the following system, adding in other bits of deinterlining that may be helpful.  Only the new canal subway will be new construction:

 207 [A] or 205 [C] - CPW express - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton lines to Euclid, Lefferts, or the Rockaways

 [M] Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd - 8th Ave local - W4th switch - Houston Street - Williamsburg Bridge - Jamacia/Myrtle 

 168th or BPB [D] - CPW local - 6th Ave express - Houston Street - Rutgers Tunnel - Culver.  B will be full-time Culver local and D will be part-time Culver express.    

 [K]   179th [F] or Jamaica Center [K] - QBL express - 63rd - 6th Ave local - W4th switch - New Canal subway - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach/West End  

2nd Ave - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton lines  

Astoria - 60th - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge.  [Yard access to Coney Island during out of service times along Sea Beach.]

 

* Slight difference is that this plan will have the New Canal subway tie into the local tracks, not the 8th Ave express.

 

 

Sorry.  Formatting goofed.  I didn't want to bold so much.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

41 minutes ago, mrsman said:

It is certainly a hard ask to destroy billions of dollars in relatively recent construction to push  trains onto the Montague tunnel.

I wonder if we can roll back a bit to something I had alluded to back on January 20 upthread.*  Namely, providing subway service from the Manhattan Bridge that will run along Canal Street west of Broadway and then heading up 6th Ave in the neighborhood of the Holland Tunnel.  

I imagine the northside of Manhattan Bridge tied to the Broadway express (as was done pre-Chrystie).  The southside of Manhattan Bridge will be tied in to new track under the existing tracks along Canal. This lower level Canal tracks will make a stop under the existing Canal Street station (similar layout as the W4th station) to provide a transfer station.  The lower level tracks will continue to 6th Ave and turn north underneath the 8th Ave express line.  The lower level will then rise up and become the local tracks that parallel the 8th Ave express, stopping at Spring St, and then utilize the W4th switches to become the 6th Ave local.  At the same time, the 8th Ave locals will utilize the W4th tracks to head east on Houston. 

The 8th Ave locals will be local along Houston street and the 6th Ave express will be express on Houston street.  Both services will provide cross-platform transfer at Broadway-Laffayette.  Then, the expresses will be routed toward the Rutgers tunnel and the locals will be routed to the Williamsburg Bridge.

What this boils down to is the following system, adding in other bits of deinterlining that may be helpful.  Only the new canal subway will be new construction:

 207 [A] or 205 [C] - CPW express - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton lines to Euclid, Lefferts, or the Rockaways

 [M] Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd - 8th Ave local - W4th switch - Houston Street - Williamsburg Bridge - Jamacia/Myrtle 

 168th or BPB [D] - CPW local - 6th Ave express - Houston Street - Rutgers Tunnel - Culver.  B will be full-time Culver local and D will be part-time Culver express.    

 [K]   179th [F] or Jamaica Center [K] - QBL express - 63rd - 6th Ave local - W4th switch - New Canal subway - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach/West End  

2nd Ave - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton lines  

Astoria - 60th - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge.  [Yard access to Coney Island during out of service times along Sea Beach.]

 

* Slight difference is that this plan will have the New Canal subway tie into the local tracks, not the 8th Ave express.

 

 

But then you’d have to close Grand Street. That can’t be a good thing.

[LGA Link N Train]

Small idea thats been on my head. Now while Whitestone is mostly Residential, what if we were to "restore" rail service to that area.

Line Branch to Whitestone. Trains would branch off at Willets Point and the Whitestone Expressway will be rebuilt to accommodate rail service while serving the neighborhood (and to relieve congestion at Main Street). Stops would be the following:

- Northern Blvd (could be an infill stop)

- Linden Place (handful of bus connections and businesses in that area)

- 20th Avenue 
- 14th Avenue

- Whitestone-154th Street.

Doing this could help better serve College Point and Whitestone and relieve a little bit of congestion at Flushing. I understand that Northeast Queens is more dense SOUTH of Northern Blvd but this proposal would be ONE way of filling in the gap of a Transit Desert.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Right. There’s more density to the south of Northern. North of Northern still seems to have many of the same people it had in the 1960s and 70s with the same attitudes about transit that they had back then.