Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Juelz4309]

Perhaps you missed my history lesson(s) on the White Plains Road line train service in the past so I'll do a short refresher. 241 St-WPR was the historical terminal for east side train service. People from Mount Vernon and points north used that station for the Lexington and the Third Avenue services. When yours truly was a new M/M working in 239th St yard we still had unused Third Avenue cars stored there from the el's closure. Seventh Avenue trains started at the old Bronx Park terminal before it was closed and the direct connection with the Dyre Avenue line was put into operation. At that time 7th Avenue service ran from Dyre to New Lots except for the late night shuttle between East 180th and Dyre. The public and the politicians wanted the TA to switch the northern terminals so Dyre became the Lex terminal and 241St was left with the train. This is what the people in the corridor between 241 St and East 180th St asked for. Those rush hour trains to 241 St/238th St were left in place for the benefit of those commuters coming from the north. Those people entering and leaving the trains up there and many of those at Dyre Avenue are commuting by bus to other points and don't live near the subways. If we're speaking of NYC residents only I'd bet that the residents of Coop City and their politicians have more clout with the compared to the upper WPR people. The only way the swaps terminals again or adds service is if it benefits train operations and not for any other reason. Just over three years ago a proposal to adjust train service up there was panned by the riders and the politicians. Most of the riders hated a variation of your idea. As some have pointed out I don't think farebox counts or loading guidelines show a need for a service adjustment up there.  I haven't been down at street level at the stations up there in about 15 years but there used to be blue and white signs on the staircases that said Interborough system to Lexington Avenue /Fourth Avenue service to City Hall, South Ferry, and Brooklyn. Transfer to 7th Avenue service to Times Square. That's what White Plains Road service used to be. Carry on.

O wow...this is intresting indeed....expalins alot and thanks for all the details....i rest my case officially...

[bobtehpanda]

The problem on this one is decades of neglect to rapid transit in NYC against the two financial crisises that has occurred in regards to expansion projects. If it didn't historically happen we would have been ahead of the 2nd Ave line deal by a long shot. The MTA screwed up because they prematurely dismantled an important el anticipating a new Bronx expansion that went financially FUBAR, basically.

 

*Or should I say NYS ? The money was there clearly. It was misused because of other issues leading up to the financial crisises that hit us during that time.

 

It's been financial problems every single time. The first time around, it was the Great Depression. The second time around, it was WWII. The third time around, it was deferred maintenance and runaway Korean War inflation. Then it was the 1970s crisis, and this is the first time we're getting around to it.

 

In all fairness, back in the city all the important people wanted the els gone, and the only reason they don't tear them down anymore is because the last set that got torn down weren't replaced. If people thought you could get the money, you'd probably see Astoria going down.

[AndrewJC]

The problem with this *gap* is that (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) the MTA is mandated by City Council to maintain a minimum amount of service according to service guidelines. If the MTA thought that WPR was above guideline load (and turnstile count would definitely give some indication for this), then it would probably increase 2 service, because it is not possible for the MTA to rob Peter (Dyre) to pay Paul (WPR).

 

What you should be concerned about is not whether your train car is full; it's whether or not the entire train is above guideline. If this is just an issue of people mashing into certain cars because that's where the exits and entries are, then big whoop: that happens on nearly every train line in every part of the city. The MTA calculates by average car load, not peak car load, and that's what you've got to worried about.

 

You asked for corrections?

 

The service guidelines were devised by the NYCTA in the 1980's (with a few revisions since) and approved by the MTA Board. The City Council never had anything to do with it.

 

And they are on no way binding on NYCT or the MTA - they are merely guidelines, to be applied where feasible.

 

There are headway guidelines, which (for the subway) call for at least 6 tph on each line during the day on weekdays and Saturdays (evenings, nights, and Sundays have less generous guidelines). And there are loading guidelines, which outside of rush hours call for loads not exceeding 125% of a seated load - during rush hours, the maximum load depends on the headway but is never more than 110 on the A Division and 145 or 175 on the B Division (depending on car length).

 

Turnstile count cannot be used to determine how many people are on each train at its peak load point. The only reliable way to check loads is to actually count (or estimate) the load on each train as it leaves the peak load point.

 

And these loads are averaged over not only each car on a train but on each train over an entire hour (or half-hour?). So a single train that's overloaded because it happens to have been delayed doesn't necessarily indicate a guideline violation as long as trains aren't overloaded on average.

[FRACertifyMotormen]

Ok Im Not Tryin to "shaft" the dyre riders But its less stops on dyre then wpr...so to correct this how about every 3rd 5 outta 180 head up to 238!....the 5 runs pretty frequently so I think this isnt askin too much...and the reason why theres no deamand for Lex ave is becuase its never been offered on a regular basis outside of rush hours....im sure the demand is there But folks up this way are just used to havin direct westside access and transfer south of 180 for the eastside...I work on 42nd And id gladly pass over the 2 for the 5...the 5 makes less stops south of 149 compared to the 2...especially when its peak exp...its 50 mins on the 2 and with exp 5 its about 40 mins...Just sayin...

 

 

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A little history lesson here.  When the Dyre Avenue line was connected to the main IRT in 1957, 7th Avenue trains served the Dyre Avenue line, while Lexington Avenue trains served the White Plains Rd. line.  Late nights, the Dyre line was a shuttle, like today, with 7th Avenue trains serving the WP line.  In 1964, the north terminals were flipped  to the current service patterns you have today in the Bronx.  To mitigate the loss of the WPR line East side service, the rush hour Lexington Avenue Through Express service from 241/238 Street was retained.  It always has been an operational headache, especially in regards to crewing trains, and the service is underutilized, especially in the PM rush hours.  Incidentally, in response to rider complaints, and to avoid confusion, in the early 1970's, ALL 5 trains were made expresses in the Bronx during the rush hours, with all 2 trains running as locals.

[Juelz4309]

What do you Mean "it has been always Hard especially from A crew standpoint"? Whats the issue with staffing the Rush Hour 5s? They all end in the yard and go outta service..Albeit Ive seen some fo express 180- to 241and changed into 2s...But what Gives?

 

 

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[qjtransitmaster]

The LIRR is expensive. Also if you notice the bus routes are not really near the LIRR.

Make it cheaper done. Then reshape several bus routes.

[bobtehpanda]

Make it cheaper done. Then reshape several bus routes.

 

Making the LIRR cheaper is not going to happen, since the price of tickets serves as a cap on demand, and the LIRR has exhausted its capacity as it is.

 

Please stop pushing this like it's an actual solution to problems.

[Vistausss]

Well, what could help is if LIRR introduces the City Ticket. Demand's a moot point for the City Ticket because MNRR has almost the same ridership level as LIRR yet they do have the City Ticket. Maybe it would help getting some people to take LIRR in CTZ.

[Mysterious2train]

The LIRR already uses CityTicket.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Mysterious2train

[Vistausss]

The LIRR already uses CityTicket.

 

Yes, I know it's there, sorry if I wasn't clear about that. My point is it could help *within* CTZ. Last time I checked (which was a few minutes ago) you're not allowed to transfer with a CityTicket so my point is still valid because you can't use it within CTZ unless you don't have to transfer.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Vistausss

[N6 Limited]

Yes, I know it's there, sorry if I wasn't clear about that. My point is it could help *within* CTZ. Last time I checked (which was a few minutes ago) you're not allowed to transfer with a CityTicket so my point is still valid because you can't use it within CTZ unless you don't have to transfer.

Do you mean a free transfer to to another service?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The LIRR already uses CityTicket.

Only on weekends. When I lived in Bayside and wanted to go to Manhattan on the weekends, I always took the railroad (Port Washington Branch) because of CityTicket. I wanted to use the railroad on weekdays too, but there was (and still is) no CityTicket fare on weekdays and a Zone 3 monthly pass was just way too expensive, so I took the Q12 or Q13 bus to Flushing for the . And judging from the crowds of people who pour off the buses and onto the trains every morning at Main St and vice versa every afternoon or evening, so do about a zillion other people.

Edited December 30, 2013 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

It's such a short line. There would be no need for any express service. It would be just as useless as a Sea Beach, or West End Express..........

As it is right now. There's definitely no need for an express with the line ending at 179th. But if the is extended four more stops east to Springfield Blvd, then there may be a very good reason to provide some sort of express service between 179th St and 71st Ave. It can (and probably should) be a part-time express. The extension itself only needs to be two tracks. But then after serving all of the stations on the extension, trains should enter and leave 179th on the express tracks and only make express stops all the way on Hillside Ave and Queens Blvd.

[bobtehpanda]

Yes, I know it's there, sorry if I wasn't clear about that. My point is it could help *within* CTZ. Last time I checked (which was a few minutes ago) you're not allowed to transfer with a CityTicket so my point is still valid because you can't use it within CTZ unless you don't have to transfer.

 

I mean, what transfers would you be using it for? As it is right now, the City Ticket is most useful for Port Washington riders, people going from Penn to Jamaica, and people going from Atlantic to Jamaica. From Kew Gardens and Forest Hills, the wait time is so long that you're better off using the subway (which has express stops a few blocks away), and there aren't that many off-peak services stopping at Hollis, QV, St. Albans, Laurelton, and Locust Manor, where the convenience of the bus + subway trumps speed (and this is all assuming you're heading into the CBD, when more likely destinations include Rego Park, Flushing, Jamaica, or Jackson Heights)

[Vistausss]

@T To Dyre Ave: Exacly! My idea is to have the CityTicket on weekdays. You're the first one to get my idea, thanks a bunch!

[T to Dyre Avenue]

@T To Dyre Ave: Exacly! My idea is to have the CityTicket on weekdays. You're the first one to get my idea, thanks a bunch!

You're welcome. But I've always believed that CityTicket should fares should be in effect weekdays as well as weekends. One thing that should be included is one free transfer to the subway per CityTicket fare. Otherwise, it's still pretty costly to take the LIRR from eastern Queens or Metro-North from Riverdale into the city on CityTicket if you have to transfer to the subway ($4.00 CityTicket fare + $2.50 subway ride).

 

I mean, what transfers would you be using it for? As it is right now, the City Ticket is most useful for Port Washington riders, people going from Penn to Jamaica, and people going from Atlantic to Jamaica. From Kew Gardens and Forest Hills, the wait time is so long that you're better off using the subway (which has express stops a few blocks away), and there aren't that many off-peak services stopping at Hollis, QV, St. Albans, Laurelton, and Locust Manor, where the convenience of the bus + subway trumps speed (and this is all assuming you're heading into the CBD, when more likely destinations include Rego Park, Flushing, Jamaica, or Jackson Heights)

Agreed. Now that I live in Forest Hills, I've never taken LIRR to Penn Station. With four subway lines at 71st Ave, there's really no reason to commute to Manhattan via LIRR from Forest Hills. If you travel to Long Island, well, that's a different story. I've done that before. I've taken the railroad from Lynbrook to Forest Hills a few times, when I didn't have access to my car and had doctor's appointments out there.

Edited December 30, 2013 by T to Dyre Avenue

[bobtehpanda]

@T To Dyre Ave: Exacly! My idea is to have the CityTicket on weekdays. You're the first one to get my idea, thanks a bunch!

 

Even off-peak, the trains running on the Main Line to Penn are crowded on weekdays, and reduced fares would only encourage more crowding. Once ESA opens, what happens is really anybody's guess (since the LIRR was planning to shuttle the Atlantic Branch, but the opening of Barclays has increased station ridership by 300%+).

 

For LIRR to be able to handle the amount of people that would probably switch to LIRR with CityTicket fares on weekdays, even off-peak, they would need to move to a 2+2 seating configuration (which wouldn't be all too terrible, since those third seats aren't actually used quite often), so that passengers would have more standing room than say, your average flight attendant in an aisle.

 

You'd also get a massive rush of complaints if the program wasn't completely city-subsidized, since LIRR ticket prices for the rest of the Island would be the same after years of price hikes while the city gets a free pass, and the ridership on the innermost lines with alternate ways of accessing Jamaica (West Hempstead, Hempstead, and possibly Far Rock) would end up shifting their commutes to city stations to take advantage of lower prices.

[bobtehpanda]

Agreed. Now that I live in Forest Hills, I've never taken LIRR to Penn Station. With four subway lines at 71st Ave, there's really no reason to commute to Manhattan via LIRR from Forest Hills. If you travel to Long Island, well, that's a different story. I've done that before. I've taken the railroad from Lynbrook to Forest Hills a few times, when I didn't have access to my car and had doctor's appointments out there.

 

Really, the only thing I have ever used CityTicket for is to go from Jamaica to Atlantic, since there isn't any convenient way to travel from Jamaica to the lines going out of Atlantic without going into Manhattan (and no, don't suggest doing the to , because the has almost no transfers with any non-IND lines in Brooklyn except the Franklin Shuttle and the , and I'm not making a four-transfer trip).

 

Jamaica-Atlantic on the LIRR can save you a good twenty-fourty minutes depending on what the subway situation is like.

[Vistausss]

 

You'd also get a massive rush of complaints if the program wasn't completely city-subsidized, since LIRR ticket prices for the rest of the Island would be the same after years of price hikes while the city gets a free pass, and the ridership on the innermost lines with alternate ways of accessing Jamaica (West Hempstead, Hempstead, and possibly Far Rock) would end up shifting their commutes to city stations to take advantage of lower prices.

 

So you're actually saying you don't want to stimulate NICE bus ridership??? Because to me it seems profitable for NICE if more people take a bus out of Hempstead (whichever one they feel like taking to Jamaica) or the n1 out of the area near Far Rock LIRR.

Seems like a win for everybody to me. CTZ gets more commuters using LIRR and NICE gets more passengers from Nassau to CTZ.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Vistausss

[bobtehpanda]

So you're actually saying you don't want to stimulate NICE bus ridership??? Because to me it seems profitable for NICE if more people take a bus out of Hempstead (whichever one they feel like taking to Jamaica) or the n1 out of the area near Far Rock LIRR.

Seems like a win for everybody to me. CTZ gets more commuters using LIRR and NICE gets more passengers from Nassau to CTZ.

 

I used to be a regular in-city LIRR rider, so I know what conditions on the ground are like. The trains are all full leaving Jamaica in the AM. On Peak PM trains even the third seats are full and the aisles are full of people standing, and you want to make it even more crowded?

 

While stimulating transit ridership is great, doing so by just expanding CityTicket is going to benefit zones 1 and 3 at the expense of the inner Nassau stations. At that point, bus + LIRR becomes cheaper than just LIRR. Peoples' commutes would end up longer, and the LIRR still wouldn't have the capacity to make up for it. This is not a net plus for regional transit, particularly when the LIRR has a cost per rider of $11+. How exactly would one justify slashing off-peak fares in Zones 1 and 3 to $4 or less?

So you're actually saying you don't want to stimulate NICE bus ridership??? Because to me it seems profitable for NICE if more people take a bus out of Hempstead (whichever one they feel like taking to Jamaica) or the n1 out of the area near Far Rock LIRR.

Seems like a win for everybody to me. CTZ gets more commuters using LIRR and NICE gets more passengers from Nassau to CTZ.

 

To add on to the earlier point, the LIRR cut West Hempstead service on weekends in 2010 due to lack of demand. Instituting off-peak CityTicket fares would shift all these people onto NICE (as the fare hikes have already done over the years), since it would make more financial sense to go into Queens rather than board at their local station. This gives an excuse to the LIRR to axe the West Hempstead completely, given that it's already running the bare minimum of service.

Edited December 31, 2013 by bobtehpanda

[Wallyhorse]

Really, the only thing I have ever used CityTicket for is to go from Jamaica to Atlantic, since there isn't any convenient way to travel from Jamaica to the lines going out of Atlantic without going into Manhattan (and no, don't suggest doing the to , because the has almost no transfers with any non-IND lines in Brooklyn except the Franklin Shuttle and the , and I'm not making a four-transfer trip).

 

Jamaica-Atlantic on the LIRR can save you a good twenty-fourty minutes depending on what the subway situation is like.

This is where my previously noted idea of a Myrtle-Brighton line can help with that problem.

 

This would take the existing portion of the Myrtle Avenue El along with a rebuild of enough of the old Myrtle El to (with most likely the Sumner Avenue stop brought back and then a connection to the at Bedford-Nostrand before going to Franklin Avenue), where it would hook up with the current Franklin Shuttle line and via that line rebuilt to two tracks and 480' or 600' stations and then via the Brighton line as a 24/7 local to Coney Island.  Such a line would also eliminate the need for the shuttle on weekends and Franklin at all times since this line (that I would call a "Black " train) would absorb both of those other lines. 

 

Getting back on topic, I'll stick with my previous idea of having the and/or / running to Belmont Park, with the main terminal at the grandstand entrance with a mini-yard under the parking lot that can double as a barebones terminal to transport people between the parking lot and main grandstand on big race days.  If you can somehow set it up so an extension can also run to Belmont Park, that would work.

[bobtehpanda]

This is where my previously noted idea of a Myrtle-Brighton line can help with that problem.

 

This would take the existing portion of the Myrtle Avenue El along with a rebuild of enough of the old Myrtle El to (with most likely the Sumner Avenue stop brought back and then a connection to the at Bedford-Nostrand before going to Franklin Avenue), where it would hook up with the current Franklin Shuttle line and via that line rebuilt to two tracks and 480' or 600' stations and then via the Brighton line as a 24/7 local to Coney Island.  Such a line would also eliminate the need for the shuttle on weekends and Franklin at all times since this line (that I would call a "Black " train) would absorb both of those other lines. 

 

Getting back on topic, I'll stick with my previous idea of having the and/or / running to Belmont Park, with the main terminal at the grandstand entrance with a mini-yard under the parking lot that can double as a barebones terminal to transport people between the parking lot and main grandstand on big race days.  If you can somehow set it up so an extension can also run to Belmont Park, that would work.

 

Belmont is not nearly a big enough station to warrant extending there for the sake of extending (no comment about the grandstand shuttle), and Hillside would benefit commuters more over than Jamaica Av, since most buses feed Hillside and not Jamaica.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Really, the only thing I have ever used CityTicket for is to go from Jamaica to Atlantic, since there isn't any convenient way to travel from Jamaica to the lines going out of Atlantic without going into Manhattan (and no, don't suggest doing the to , because the has almost no transfers with any non-IND lines in Brooklyn except the Franklin Shuttle and the , and I'm not making a four-transfer trip).

 

Jamaica-Atlantic on the LIRR can save you a good twenty-fourty minutes depending on what the subway situation is like.

For sure. It's a hell of a lot faster from Jamaica to downtown Brooklyn on the LIRR vs. to or to .

 

I still think the Atlantic Branch from Jamaica to Atlantic Ave should become part of the subway, given the LIRR's plans for it once ESA opens. If only it wasn't so costly to link it to one of the B-Division East River tunnels...

[Vistausss]

But the IRT has some problems of its own already. A new branch from Jamaica to Atlantic Ave doesn't really help the current , and riders who need more service...

[bobtehpanda]

But the IRT has some problems of its own already. A new branch from Jamaica to Atlantic Ave doesn't really help the current , and riders who need more service...

 

What's preventing NYCT from running it like an isolated stepchild the same way LIRR is planning to do? It provides an actual Queens-Brooklyn connection from a major bus hub (Jamaica) to Atlantic Terminal and all the trains serving it, and if they decide to reactivate Woodhaven or build new stations (perhaps at Utica, among other locations), it can provide relief to the and .

 

It's certainly a step above the current Queens-Brooklyn connections, which are infuriatingly hard due to the lack of IND-BMT/IRT transfers besides Metrotech and 4th/9th.