Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[bobtehpanda]

Interlining has pros and cons. This proposal does not remove all interlining. It does reduce the amount of interlining to improve schedule adherence and service reliability. The major complaints that I read about the NYC subway usually revolve around delays and reliability. 

 

Pros of interlining:

 

More service options and less transfers. 

 

Cons of interlining:

 

Delays at junctions causing irregular service, and less frequency offered per line (more waiting time). 

 

Shades of Cyan:

 

I've used shading to identify express services, which is common in non-official NYC subway maps I've seen. The official colors are respected for the trunk lines. I made the  ,   and  (S)'s purple to reduce the overall number of colors used.

 

The problem with reducing the overall number of colors used (not sure why that's necessary) is that the colors are used to identify the trunk lines. You've essentially turned most of Brooklyn and Queens into a sea of blue, purple, and cyan, and the colors end up losing their meaning.

 

The KickMap is a good example of shading, because the colors are still similar to the original colors and you can still easily identify their trunk. This just creates a mess that's hard to interpret for most people, and probably a nightmare for the colorblind (some people don't have the ability to see blue)

[j express]

: Select trains run express  242 St to Dyckman St and 137 St to 96 St peak direction in rush hours only.

: Increase weekend headways from 12 minutes to 8 minutes.

: 24/7 to New Lots Av. Increase weekend headways from 12 minutes to 8 minutes.

 Late night service runs to Utica Av only making express stops in Brooklyn.

: Late night service runs to Bowling Green via Lex Av Exp. Flatbush Av service runs till 11 p.m.  Increase weekend headways  to 8 minutes.

: No change.

: Exp service runs till midnight on weekdays.

: Runs Exp in Manhattan 24/7. More Rockaway Park trips in the Summer Months.

 extended to Bedford Park Blvd middays and evenings.

 Runs from 168 St to 2 Av overnight.

 No change.

 24/7 Queens Blvd Exp from Queens Plaza to 71 Av.

: Select trains run exp from Jay St to Chruch Av in the rush hour in peak direction.

: No change.

 Runs to Broad St 24/7. (Z)Skipstop in peak direction starts from 6:30 to 9:30 a.m and 3:30 to 6:30 p.m

 Late Night and weekend service runs from Metro Av to Essex St/

: 24/7 exp in Brooklyn.

 Weekend Service extended to Ditmars Blvd except late nights.

 After Montague re opens runs from 179 St to 95 St vua tunnel and Queens Blvd Local.

42 St Shuttle runs 24/7.

Edited January 5, 2014 by j express

[Jsunflyguy]

Given a 20 minute run time is scheduled from Jamaica to Atlantic, 7.5 minute headways require 5-6 trains.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Given a 20 minute run time is scheduled from Jamaica to Atlantic, 7.5 minute headways require 5-6 trains.

Im sorry for balling low on this one, but shouldn't they just run the trains every 12 minutes instead of 7.5 minutes, because quite frankly, 7.5 sounds like a lot of time being given (and possibly run every 8 minutes during the rush). They would only need 4 trains with 12 minute headways. (assuming if they do a cycle of 24 minutes). The extra trainset or two could be set aside for the shuttle in the case of a brake down or failure.

[bobtehpanda]

Im sorry for balling low on this one, but shouldn't they just run the trains every 12 minutes instead of 7.5 minutes, because quite frankly, 7.5 sounds like a lot of time being given (and possibly run every 8 minutes during the rush). They would only need 4 trains with 12 minute headways. (assuming if they do a cycle of 24 minutes). The extra trainset or two could be set aside for the shuttle in the case of a brake down or failure.

 

Something tells me that every 7.5 is going to be easier to connect with than every 12 with whatever new fancy shmancy scheduling the LIRR is doing, especially since they tend to run off-peak services on a clockface schedule.

[drekroid]

so some reason my new desktop can't quote...

 

Drek, you idea suffers a lot of the same problems your previous proposals did,

 

 

#1. Making stations that were never meant to be terminals terminals

 

Kings Highway is NOT a terminal.

 

What do you have against Euclid that you still short the C at B'way Juct?

 

#2.Telling us interlining slows service, but you still rely way too much on diamond cross overs.

 

Truth is the subway is designed for interlining. It's how the system has been operated since November 23, 1904, the day the Lenox ave Branch opened for service, a month after the original mainline opened.

 

#3 Over focus on evening out tph*, to the detramint of choice.

 

*plus the information you used is off. The A to Rockaway park only sees 5 trains a day, and they do not operate the entire route southbound. The first four put-in at 168th, the last puts-in at Dyckman Street. 

 

#4 No regard for operational logistics.

 

example, sending the R back to Astoria brings back the same problem the R had for years, it lacks storage capacity. Today, all lines have a yard somewhere along it's route. Some have more than one. Sending the R to Astoria leaves it with no yard, and zero storage capticty without some serious deadheading.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

#1. Terminals

 

What's wrong with Kings Highway (Brighton Line) being a terminal? Express trains would switch to local tracks, and local trains would terminate on the express tracks. The switches are in place. Is there something I'm missing?

 

I've read many times on this forum that the  terminates at Forest Hills because an extended  did not entice riders to use local service instead of express service. Riders would just switch to the express trains at Forest Hills. So using this logic, wouldn't it be similar for local stops east of Broadway Junction? Don't  riders transfer to  at BJ? If so, what is the point of running the  past BJ? And for the Brighton Line, why run local service past Kings Highway if riders would prefer, and switch to, the express service anyway?

 

#2. Interlining

 

I said Interlining has pros and cons. I didn't say it was entirely useless. It's a question of balance. It some cases it makes sense. In others, it can create problems. The system I proposed eliminates some interlining to improve consistency and reliability of services.

 

#3. Evening out TPH

 

I disagree with your position on this. I think it's very important to consider the combined TPH when interlining. Otherwise bunching occurs, causing large gaps in the service.

 

#4. Operational Logistics

 

Trains for the proposed   could be stored at both the Jamaica Yard, and the Coney Yard. Yes, dead-heading would be required. My counter argument would be that currently,   and   trains serving Astoria have to be sent out of Coney way earlier (aprrox. 75 minutes) to make it to Astoria. So if the Astoria line needs a train to be departing at 7am for example, it must leave Coney at 5:45am. From the Jamaica Yard, it would only take 30 minutes to get a train to Astoria, so that same train could depart the Jamaica Yard at 6:30am instead.

 

It's a similar situation for the Bay Ridge line.  trains sent out of Jamaica take about 85 minutes to reach Bay Ridge, while trains from the Coney Yard would only need 30 minutes to make it there. So that's my counter-argument. 

[drekroid]

The problem with reducing the overall number of colors used (not sure why that's necessary) is that the colors are used to identify the trunk lines. You've essentially turned most of Brooklyn and Queens into a sea of blue, purple, and cyan, and the colors end up losing their meaning.

 

The KickMap is a good example of shading, because the colors are still similar to the original colors and you can still easily identify their trunk. This just creates a mess that's hard to interpret for most people, and probably a nightmare for the colorblind (some people don't have the ability to see blue)

 

I'm surprised by the reaction to my color choices. For the most part, I do stick with official colors.

 

Here are the color choices I used, and how they make sense to me:

 

• 7 Av lines: Local - Red, Express - Pink

• Lexington lines: Local - Dark Green, Express - Light Green

• 8 Av lines: Local - Dark Blue, Express - Light Blue

• 6 Av lines: Local - Dark Orange, Express - Light Orange

• Broadway lines: Local - Dark Yellow, Express - Light Yellow

• Nassau St lines: Local - Dark Brown, Express - Light Brown

• Flushing / Canarsie lines: Dark Purple

• Crosstown / Shuttle lines (short trains): Light Purple

[Quill Depot]

trains run summer weekends.

[P3F]

Kings Highway can be a viable terminal, they did it with the and the after Hurricane Sandy.

[GojiMet86]

Kings Highway can be a viable terminal, they did it with the and the after Hurricane Sandy.

 

But why not keep it at Brighton Beach?

[Lance]

Kings Highway can be a viable terminal, they did it with the and the after Hurricane Sandy.

Because trains couldn't turn at Brighton Beach due to a power outage. It's not a viable permanent terminal with another line running through service past it.

[Union Tpke]

The should run on weekends on it's full route.

[bobtehpanda]

 

I'm surprised by the reaction to my color choices. For the most part, I do stick with official colors.

 

Here are the color choices I used, and how they make sense to me:

 

• 7 Av lines: Local - Red, Express - Pink

• Lexington lines: Local - Dark Green, Express - Light Green

• 8 Av lines: Local - Dark Blue, Express - Light Blue

• 6 Av lines: Local - Dark Orange, Express - Light Orange

• Broadway lines: Local - Dark Yellow, Express - Light Yellow

• Nassau St lines: Local - Dark Brown, Express - Light Brown

• Flushing / Canarsie lines: Dark Purple

• Crosstown / Shuttle lines (short trains): Light Purple

 

 

My issue is that the light purple and light blue, and dark purple and dark blue are too similar of a hue, and that grey is a perfectly fine color to use. The IRT is already red and green; let's not make life any harder for the colorblind folk.

[Brighton Beach Local]

I'd like to have the and lines extended down through the montague st tunnel (once it's finished) like this:

 

Current Terminal: Broad St J•Z

 

BKLYN,

R line

 

Court St-Borough Hall: 2•3•4•5•J•R•Z

Jay St-MetroTech: A•C•F•J•R•Z

 

D Line

 

Barclays Ctr-Atlantic: Av 2•3•4•5•B•D•J•N•Q•R•Z

36 St: D•J•N•R•Z

 

D•J•Z $KIP $TOP $ERVICE (?)

 

(D serves all stops here, D•Z stops only have D service during not rush hrs, so the J is essentially express! )

9 Av: D•J

Fort Hamilton Pkwy: D•Z

50 St: D•Z

55 St: D•J

62 St-New Utrecht Av: D•J•N•Z

71 St: D•Z

79 St: D•J

18 Av: D•Z

20 Av: D•J

Bay Pkwy: D•J•Z

25 Av: D•Z

Bay 50 St: D•J•Z

Coney Island-Stillwell Av: D•F•J•N•Q•Z

 

This causes the first time science the Big Bang that you will hear "This is a D LOCAL train. The next stop is..."

 

Does anyone agree/like this? Thanks!

[bobtehpanda]

I'd like to have the and lines extended down through the montague st tunnel (once it's finished) like this:

 

Current Terminal: Broad St J•Z

 

BKLYN,

R line

 

Court St-Borough Hall: 2•3•4•5•J•R•Z

Jay St-MetroTech: A•C•F•J•R•Z

 

D Line

 

Barclays Ctr-Atlantic: Av 2•3•4•5•B•D•J•N•Q•R•Z

36 St: D•J•N•R•Z

 

D•J•Z $KIP $TOP $ERVICE (?)

 

(D serves all stops here, D•Z stops only have D service during not rush hrs, so the J is essentially express! )

9 Av: D•J

Fort Hamilton Pkwy: D•Z

50 St: D•Z

55 St: D•J

62 St-New Utrecht Av: D•J•N•Z

71 St: D•Z

79 St: D•J

18 Av: D•Z

20 Av: D•J

Bay Pkwy: D•J•Z

25 Av: D•Z

Bay 50 St: D•J•Z

Coney Island-Stillwell Av: D•F•J•N•Q•Z

 

This causes the first time science the Big Bang that you will hear "This is a D LOCAL train. The next stop is..."

 

Does anyone agree/like this? Thanks!

 

It would probably just be easier to extend the J/Z to the M's old terminal at Bay Pkwy without the skip stop... This sounds unnecessarily complicated.

 

Also, is there even room on the 4th Av express tracks for a third set of services?

Edited January 29, 2014 by bobtehpanda

[cl94]

I'd like to have the and lines extended down through the montague st tunnel (once it's finished) like this:

 

Current Terminal: Broad St J•Z

 

BKLYN,

R line

 

Court St-Borough Hall: 2•3•4•5•J•R•Z

Jay St-MetroTech: A•C•F•J•R•Z

 

D Line

 

Barclays Ctr-Atlantic: Av 2•3•4•5•B•D•J•N•Q•R•Z

36 St: D•J•N•R•Z

 

D•J•Z $KIP $TOP $ERVICE (?)

 

(D serves all stops here, D•Z stops only have D service during not rush hrs, so the J is essentially express! )

9 Av: D•J

Fort Hamilton Pkwy: D•Z

50 St: D•Z

55 St: D•J

62 St-New Utrecht Av: D•J•N•Z

71 St: D•Z

79 St: D•J

18 Av: D•Z

20 Av: D•J

Bay Pkwy: D•J•Z

25 Av: D•Z

Bay 50 St: D•J•Z

Coney Island-Stillwell Av: D•F•J•N•Q•Z

 

This causes the first time science the Big Bang that you will hear "This is a D LOCAL train. The next stop is..."

 

Does anyone agree/like this? Thanks!

 

I'm all for restoring Nassau service to/from Brooklyn after Montague reopens. Could take some people off the . The biggest problem is ensuring that there are enough 4-car sets to extend the line by ~60% without reducing service frequency to unacceptable levels. People along the Jamaica line won't like seeing the headways on the double (which is what would happen if the net amount of cars assigned to the does not change).

 

It would probably just be easier to extend the J/Z to the M's old terminal at Bay Pkwy without the skip stop... This sounds unnecessarily complicated.

 

Agree entirely. If anything (providing that the aforementioned issue is resolved), have the run express north of Bay Parkway (or, preferably, add another crossover south of 62nd St and have the express run start there. Ideally, the would run local on 4th Avenue, supplementing the absymal service it currently sees. It would then run local on West End and end at Bay Parkway. There's no way Stillwell could reliably handle another service. Cut them back to 9th Avenue during middays (and maybe weekends) so the poor folks transfering from the at 9th Street have a semi-decent chance of waiting less than 20 minutes for a BMT local to appear. I'd say keep it at Chambers on weekends. There's a reason why such a weekend service has never existed (to my knowledge, at least).

[Missabassie]

Just kill off the already, and extend the to 95 st all day on weekdays.

[cl94]

Just kill off the already, and extend the to 95 st all day on weekdays.

 

The would be great as an express service between Broadway Junction and Marcy Avenue. It would certainly speed up service to/from areas east of ENY. Heck, they could theoretically do what is done with the in the Bronx and have some (but not all) trips short-turn at Broadway Junction.

 

No way 95th Street could handle both the and the as it currently stands. With how the timetable is set up, a train leaves <2 minutes after one pulls in on the other track. The would see its frequency cut and Fourth Avenue local riders would be no better off, actually losing some service to Midtown. The would have to terminate at 9th Avenue, 62nd Street, or Bay Parkway (all on West End) for it to work. If they ever built a tunnel to SI, send the over there and then the could end at 95th.

[Missabassie]

If they ever built a tunnel to SI, send the over there and then the could end at 95th.

As if that would ever happen... Edited February 1, 2014 by Missabassi

[cl94]

They'll build a tunnel to SI when pigs fly. Knowing how the is, we'll have flying cars before a tunnel goes to Staten Island

[Missabassie]

They'll build a tunnel to SI when pigs fly. Knowing how the is, we'll have flying cars before a tunnel goes to Staten Island

yup...

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The would be great as an express service between Broadway Junction and Marcy Avenue. It would certainly speed up service to/from areas east of ENY. Heck, they could theoretically do what is done with the in the Bronx and have some (but not all) trips short-turn at Broadway Junction.

 

No way 95th Street could handle both the and the as it currently stands. With how the timetable is set up, a train leaves <2 minutes after one pulls in on the other track. The would see its frequency cut and Fourth Avenue local riders would be no better off, actually losing some service to Midtown. The would have to terminate at 9th Avenue, 62nd Street, or Bay Parkway (all on West End) for it to work. If they ever built a tunnel to SI, send the over there and then the could end at 95th.

I agree. But I think the express's headways would have to be decreased. and trains run 6 tph apiece, so either increasing the Z's number of tph (the and would be two separate services under this scenario) or running some J's past Broadway Jct (like you suggested) would have to be done to give acceptable service east of Broadway Jct. I wonder if the Broadway/Jamaica Ave el can handle a running 8 tph without fouling up the flat junction at Myrtle Ave.

 

And yes, it makes more sense to terminate the extended on the West End Line than at 95th St. But the should stay local south of 36th St. There's no need for express service on the West End Line.

Edited February 2, 2014 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I'm all for restoring Nassau service to/from Brooklyn after Montague reopens. Could take some people off the . The biggest problem is ensuring that there are enough 4-car sets to extend the line by ~60% without reducing service frequency to unacceptable levels. People along the Jamaica line won't like seeing the headways on the double (which is what would happen if the net amount of cars assigned to the does not change).

 

 

Agree entirely. If anything (providing that the aforementioned issue is resolved), have the run express north of Bay Parkway (or, preferably, add another crossover south of 62nd St and have the express run start there. Ideally, the would run local on 4th Avenue, supplementing the absymal service it currently sees. It would then run local on West End and end at Bay Parkway. There's no way Stillwell could reliably handle another service. Cut them back to 9th Avenue during middays (and maybe weekends) so the poor folks transfering from the at 9th Street have a semi-decent chance of waiting less than 20 minutes for a BMT local to appear. I'd say keep it at Chambers on weekends. There's a reason why such a weekend service has never existed (to my knowledge, at least).

So am I. I work in the courts in Lower Manhattan with a lot of people who live in southern Brooklyn who used to take the M train to Chambers, before it got rerouted up 6th Avenue. I'm definitely not in favor of bringing back the old M service; it would be wasteful to do that. But maybe by having either the run express at 8 tph between Broadway Jct and Marcy (because it would have to make all stops east of Broadway Jct) and the run local to/from Broadway Jct, one of those trains can provide the extended service into southern Brooklyn.

[bobtehpanda]

So am I. I work in the courts in Lower Manhattan with a lot of people who live in southern Brooklyn who used to take the M train to Chambers, before it got rerouted up 6th Avenue. I'm definitely not in favor of bringing back the old M service; it would be wasteful to do that. But maybe by having either the run express at 8 tph between Broadway Jct and Marcy (because it would have to make all stops east of Broadway Jct) and the run local to/from Broadway Jct, one of those trains can provide the extended service into southern Brooklyn.

Both can be extended, since they both make all stops past Marcy, so there shouldn't really be any scheduling conflict by extending the all-stops pattern to Bay Parkway .

[cl94]

Both can be extended, since they both make all stops past Marcy, so there shouldn't really be any scheduling conflict by extending the all-stops pattern to Bay Parkway .

 

As of now, there aren't enough trains for both to go all the way to Bay Parkway without seeing a slight reduction in frequency, even if one service short-turned at ENY and the other ran express west of there. The had enough, but all of those trains are now going to Midtown. Headways won't decrease by all that much if it runs to 9th Avenue, but Bay Parkway is 9 stops further. Broad Street to 9th is 10 stops. Short-turning the and having the run express east of Myrtle would (theoretically) speed up service enough for an extension to Brooklyn, but not all the way to Bay Parkway.