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EE Broadway Local

Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

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Both can be extended, since they both make all stops past Marcy, so there shouldn't really be any scheduling conflict by extending the all-stops pattern to Bay Parkway (D).

But the (J) and (Z) currently run a combine 12 tph during rush hours. Factor in the (D) and that seems like it would be over-serving the West End Line. The M never ran that much service when it ran on the West End or Brighton lines.

 

As of now, there aren't enough trains for both to go all the way to Bay Parkway without seeing a slight reduction in frequency, even if one service short-turned at ENY and the other ran express west of there. The (M) had enough, but all of those trains are now going to Midtown. Headways won't decrease by all that much if it runs to 9th Avenue, but Bay Parkway is 9 stops further. Broad Street to 9th is 10 stops. Short-turning the (Z) and having the (J) run express east of Myrtle would (theoretically) speed up service enough for an extension to Brooklyn, but not all the way to Bay Parkway.

Right. One problem is that so many pre-R46 cars were reefed or scrapped, so the MTA now has just enough to run the current service patterns. Hopefully, the upcoming R179 cars help solve that problem. They're very fortunate that the R160 cars are not lemons. My guess is that extending the (Z) to 9th Avenue would be sufficient; it would be there just to supplement the (R) at the 4th Ave local stations above 36th St. The West End Line doesn't seem to have a pressing need for direct Lower Manhattan/downtown Brooklyn service, so the (D) alone seems to be just fine from Fort Hamilton Pkwy to Stillwell. I do wonder if the Sea Beach Line might have such a need, especially given the increasing ridership on the (N), especially at 8th Ave and Fort Hamilton Pkwy.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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I don't know what I was thinking, but i was looking at a 2004 subway map (still during bridge reconstruction) and had an idea for a new line/ service.

 

(Q)(W) Brighton

(B)(F) Culver.

This would be changed once the (Q) is extended to 96th Street.

 

The (W) would resume service, operating weekdays from Astoria-Ditmars to Brighton Beach (Queens Lcl, Manhattan/Brooklyn Express) It would run the same hours as the (B).

 

The (B) would then be relocated to the Culver Line. It would go to Kings Hwy (peak direction express) Rush Hour/Midday. Evenings it would terminate at 2 Av.

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I don't know what I was thinking, but i was looking at a 2004 subway map (still during bridge reconstruction) and had an idea for a new line/ service.

 

(Q)(W) Brighton

(B)(F) Culver.

This would be changed once the (Q) is extended to 96th Street.

 

The (W) would resume service, operating weekdays from Astoria-Ditmars to Brighton Beach (Queens Lcl, Manhattan/Brooklyn Express) It would run the same hours as the (B).

 

The (B) would then be relocated to the Culver Line. It would go to Kings Hwy (peak direction express) Rush Hour/Midday. Evenings it would terminate at 2 Av.

 

This was (basically) the pre-1967 configuration. You'd be undoing Chrystie Street while creating another choke point north of West 4th (where the (B) would have to switch between express and local). The Culver Line would be better served with express service to Kings Highway, but not at the expense of Brighton Line access to 6th Avenue. A lot of people would be transferring to the (D) at Atlantic to get between Brighton and 6th Avenue, which is an experience everybody wants to avoid if possible.

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That would be totally weird sending the (5) Train to Nereid Av (238th St) all times except late nights. The weirdest part to that story is, that while I was heading to the Grand Hyatt Hotel at Grand Central Terminal, I looked over at the countdown clock on the uptown express platform at 86th St and I see the time on the clock for when the next uptown (4) or (5) Train is coming. Here's the twist: the upcoming (5) Train that was heading to The Bronx was actually going to the Wakefield-241st St (2) Subway Station. Doesn't that sound too strange to all of you? I swear to God, that this must be some kind of mistake to the weekday morning schedule. From my intake of this knowledge, the (5) Train service to Wakefield-241st St was cut off to end at Nereid Av (238th St) back in 1995 because of the service cuts. Yet somehow, the MTA ends up sending some of the (5) Trains along the (2) Line in the morning. If y'all don't believe me; go railfan the uptown (5) Train during the weekday morning hours, wait for the Wakefield-241st St-bound train and ride that train up to Wakefield, you will know that I'm not making this up.

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There used to be a reverse peak <5> to 238 in the morning. The 241 St (5) trains seem to run express along with the E 180 St (5) trains. Is there a program for (5) express to 241 St?

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There used to be a reverse peak <5> to 238 in the morning. The 241 St (5) trains seem to run express along with the E 180 St (5) trains. Is there a program for (5) express to 241 St?

 

Yes. On YouTube, I believe MrRailfanBVE but *maybe* someone else, has a recording of the (5) express to 241 St.

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It's not that surprising to see a (5) running to 241 St, especially if something's holding up the (2) trains somewhere along the line.

 

There used to be a reverse peak <5> to 238 in the morning. The 241 St (5) trains seem to run express along with the E 180 St (5) trains. Is there a program for (5) express to 241 St?

If you mean via White Plains Rd, then no, all AAS options to 241 St are local in the Bronx.

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It's not that surprising to see a (5) running to 241 St, especially if something's holding up the (2) trains somewhere along the line.

 

If you mean via White Plains Rd, then no, all AAS options to 241 St are local in the Bronx.

The (5) to 241 St is regularly scheduled, there are 2 trips leaving Bowling Green at 9:27am, and 9:50am, they run express in the Bronx, then local north of E 180 St

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Trains between 3 Av - 149 St and E 180 St N/B weekday mornings, trains in bold run express

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:12 AM     09:24 AM
5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:13 AM     09:26 AM
5 E 180TH ST                           09:17 AM     09:26 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:19 AM     09:31 AM
5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:22 AM     09:34 AM
2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:25 AM     09:37 AM
5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:28 AM     09:41 AM
5 E 180TH ST                           09:33 AM     09:42 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:36 AM     09:48 AM
5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:37 AM     09:50 AM
2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:39 AM     09:52 AM
5 E 180TH ST                            09:42 AM     09:51 AM
2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:44 AM     09:57 AM
5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:46 AM     09:58 AM
5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:48 AM     10:01 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:53 AM     10:05 AM
5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:54 AM     10:07 AM
2 238TH ST-NEREID AV            09:56 AM     10:11 AM
5 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD         09:58 AM     10:09 AM
5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     10:00 AM     10:12 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD         10:02 AM     10:14 AM
2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD         10:08 AM     10:20 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     10:09 AM     10:22 AM
5 E 180TH ST                           10:11 AM     10:20 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     10:15 AM     10:28 AM
2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          10:17 AM     10:30 AM
5 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          10:20 AM    10:29 AM

Edited by GreatOne2k
  • Upvote 2

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The (5) to 241 St is regularly scheduled, there are 2 trips leaving Bowling Green at 9:27am, and 9:50am, they run express in the Bronx, then local north of E 180 St

Ive seen These 5s to 241 Via my app when I have some down time at ma job...so this makes sense cuz its aorund this time...and ive known 5 trains to run express 3/149-E180 After the rush hour southbound...I assumr its for layups at unionport ..

Trains between 3 Av - 149 St and E 180 St N/B weekday mornings, trains in bold run express

 

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:12 AM     09:24 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:13 AM     09:26 AM

5 E 180TH ST                           09:17 AM     09:26 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:19 AM     09:31 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:22 AM     09:34 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:25 AM     09:37 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:28 AM     09:41 AM

5 E 180TH ST                           09:33 AM     09:42 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:36 AM     09:48 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:37 AM     09:50 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:39 AM     09:52 AM

5 E 180TH ST                            09:42 AM     09:51 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:44 AM     09:57 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:46 AM     09:58 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:48 AM     10:01 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:53 AM     10:05 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:54 AM     10:07 AM

2 238TH ST-NEREID AV            09:56 AM     10:11 AM

5 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD         09:58 AM     10:09 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     10:00 AM     10:12 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD         10:02 AM     10:14 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD         10:08 AM     10:20 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     10:09 AM     10:22 AM

5 E 180TH ST                           10:11 AM     10:20 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     10:15 AM     10:28 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          10:17 AM     10:30 AM

5 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          10:20 AM    10:29 AM

NICE!

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Trains between 3 Av - 149 St and E 180 St N/B weekday mornings, trains in bold run express

 

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:12 AM     09:24 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:13 AM     09:26 AM

5 E 180TH ST                           09:17 AM     09:26 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:19 AM     09:31 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:22 AM     09:34 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:25 AM     09:37 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:28 AM     09:41 AM

5 E 180TH ST                           09:33 AM     09:42 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:36 AM     09:48 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:37 AM     09:50 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:39 AM     09:52 AM

5 E 180TH ST                            09:42 AM     09:51 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:44 AM     09:57 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:46 AM     09:58 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:48 AM     10:01 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          09:53 AM     10:05 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     09:54 AM     10:07 AM

2 238TH ST-NEREID AV            09:56 AM     10:11 AM

5 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD         09:58 AM     10:09 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     10:00 AM     10:12 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD         10:02 AM     10:14 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD         10:08 AM     10:20 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     10:09 AM     10:22 AM

5 E 180TH ST                           10:11 AM     10:20 AM

5 DYRE AV-EASTCHESTER     10:15 AM     10:28 AM

2 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          10:17 AM     10:30 AM

5 241ST ST-WAKEFIELD          10:20 AM    10:29 AM

 

Oh, so that's what it is, huh? A time difference between the (2) and (5) lines when one of them are running local or express from 3rd Av-149th St to E 180th St. I kinda get the point now.

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I don't know if this was discussed on here before, so I'm putting this out here for discussion.  A couple of my friends were discussing about the problems that occur when the B terminates at 145 during the mid-day.  Consider this scenario:  if there was a B in the middle track at 145, that B would have to wait until a southbound D clears 145 to leave.  At the same time, there is a northbound B at 135 waiting to enter 145 and a northbound C at 125  which has to wait for that B to leave as well as a northbound D.  Once the southbound B leaves 145, then the northbound B can enter 145, but the northbound D has to wait at 135 and an A behind the D has to wait at 125.  This could create a lot of tie-ups.

 

Also in addition, if a southbound B is leaving the middle track at 145, a southbound D can't enter the station until the B has left.  One solution is to extend the B to Bedford Park outside of rush hours.  There would be less conflicts and delays.

 

Any thoughts, please feel free to comment!

  • Upvote 2

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has there ever been all day two line service on concourse?

 

Is there a ridership demand or will trains be running empty?

Ride the (D) from the Bronx on the weekend, see the crushloaded trains then get back to me.

 

Not clear on your first sentence perhaps you can clarify on that for us.

\

 

One solution is to extend the B to Bedford Park outside of rush hours.  There would be less conflicts and delays.

The ultimate solution to the weekend problem thats for sure with all facts presented according to your breakdown of the situation. The catch is that where will the (B) terminate once it hits in Manhattan. 2nd Ave could be a good choice, but that may create a congestion point. Do you think this can work from your experience in RTO?

Edited by realizm

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If the B is not extended up concourse it can run to Dyckman St (Near 207 St Yard) or 168 St

Yeah but then were missing out on a useful supplemental weekend service to relieve overcrowding on the (D) . Previously having lived in the Bronx dependant on the IND Grand Concourse line, weekends is a killer. Sometimes I literally get sick and tired of it, walk the extra 3 blocks and take the (4) .

 

Also the Concourse Yard definitely has the adequate capacity to hold trains thats the other thing. At least from my observations.

Edited by realizm

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I don't know if this was discussed on here before, so I'm putting this out here for discussion.  A couple of my friends were discussing about the problems that occur when the B terminates at 145 during the mid-day.  Consider this scenario:  if there was a B in the middle track at 145, that B would have to wait until a southbound D clears 145 to leave.  At the same time, there is a northbound B at 135 waiting to enter 145 and a northbound C at 125  which has to wait for that B to leave as well as a northbound D.  Once the southbound B leaves 145, then the northbound B can enter 145, but the northbound D has to wait at 135 and an A behind the D has to wait at 125.  This could create a lot of tie-ups.

 

Also in addition, if a southbound B is leaving the middle track at 145, a southbound D can't enter the station until the B has left.  One solution is to extend the B to Bedford Park outside of rush hours.  There would be less conflicts and delays.

 

Any thoughts, please feel free to comment!

 

This does make alot more sense...so that way the bottleneck at the 135 interlocking wouldn't be holding up the trains alot like they do now at various times of the day...

 

If the B is not extended up concourse it can run to Dyckman St (Near 207 St Yard) or 168 St

 

Why? Many of the (A) and (D) riders are headed to/from Manhattan's CBD, not CPW. It's not like the relay north of 168th (like the relay east of Euclid) could handle any more than 6 trains per hour each, which the supplemental (C) local has always been doing for years now. And why Dyckman? You'd be holding up the (A).

Edited by RollOverMyHead

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Yeah but then were missing out on a useful supplemental weekend service to relieve overcrowding on the (D) . Previously having lived in the Bronx dependant on the IND Grand Concourse line, weekends is a killer. Sometimes I literally get sick and tired of it, walk the extra 3 blocks and take the (4) .

 

Also the Concourse Yard definitely has the adequate capacity to hold trains thats the other thing. At least from my observations.

Not only that, but when the Jerome Avenue Line (like right now) is knocked out, it's even worse, you aren't going to garner enough people on the Bx32, especially with it's headways.

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has there ever been all day two line service on concourse?

 

Is there a ridership demand or will trains be running empty?

 

The problem being is that many of those GC riders are headed to/from Manhattan's CBD, rather than CPW. I think its much, much more likely that the people will pass up the (B) local for the (D) express. I do not really think they'll ever extend the midday/evening (B) service past 145th to/from Bedford Park (like rush hour).

Edited by RollOverMyHead

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Not only that, but when the Jerome Avenue Line (like right now) is knocked out, it's even worse, you aren't going to garner enough people on the Bx32, especially with it's headways.

Total chaos when theres a (4) GO you better believe it. (There should be normal service this weekend but I know what you mean)

 

And yes, The Bx32 as well as the Bx1, Bx2 and Bx4 or the express buses combined cannot match the capacity of the IND Grand Concourse. No way. Plus it doesnt exactly provide the necessary option needed by residents to get to either 59th Street or anywhete along the 6th Ave line in Miodtown to 34th Street.

 

 

The problem being is that many of those GC riders are headed to/from Manhattan's CBD, rather than CPW. I think its much, much more likely that the people will pass up the (B) local for the (D) express. I do not really think they'll ever extend the midday/evening (B) service past 145th to/from Bedford Park (like rush hour).

They will look at ridership patterns and therefore make the excuse that fare collection revenue along the GC doesnt justify an increase in service at least with the (D) . The real deal is that the (D) is crushloaded and heavy in usage at unconventional times, thats what the head committees are not telling us but I know personally very well as a former Bronx commuter.

 

Unbelievable the (D) was not included with the service enhancements to start tjhis summer. Let alone a weekend (B) already. Bronx ridership may habve srunk but they forgot to takle the (4) GOs into consideration forcing many to commute by car. I am saying this because when I had my car thats exactly what I did.

Edited by realizm

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2nd Ave could be a good choice, but that may create a congestion point.

 

The (F) is already utilizing 2nd Ave frequently and every once in a while the (E) gets rerouted to 2nd Ave via the (F) line so that creates even more congestion. I don't think 2nd Ave will be a good choice.

Although it might a bit unfeasible, a permanent (B) terminal could be Bowery. The south/east platform is currently abandoned. It could be revived for the (B). Of course, that would require digging to connect the (B) to the (J)(Z) Bowery station so like I said: it might be unfeasible. But at least that's a station with a platform ready to be used after some cleaning (and connecting the tracks).

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The (F) is already utilizing 2nd Ave frequently and every once in a while the (E) gets rerouted to 2nd Ave via the (F) line so that creates even more congestion. I don't think 2nd Ave will be a good choice.

Although it might a bit unfeasible, a permanent (B) terminal could be Bowery. The south/east platform is currently abandoned. It could be revived for the (B). Of course, that would require digging to connect the (B) to the (J)(Z) Bowery station so like I said: it might be unfeasible. But at least that's a station with a platform ready to be used after some cleaning (and connecting the tracks).

Thats the catch with the weekend (B) to 2nd Ave as I was alluding to before and I'm glad you are seeing it as well. When they did that Culver Viaduct study before the 2010 budget cuts and the activatioon of the 6th Ave (M) they considered extending the (V) to Brooklyn for that very reason you have just mentioned: The congestion point at 2nd Ave which significantly delayed the (F) as the terminating (V) had to use the switches to get to the inside tracks, then turnaround after fumigation. (well it doesnt matter now but just for the record thats what the MTA considered back when in 2009.)

 

Then again we need to figure out the problem with needed weekend increase on the IND Grand Concourse. Sending the (B) to Brooklyn would logistically work but then again we may not need redundant BMT Brighton service on the weekends either. Kind of a tough one.

Edited by realizm

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Thats the catch with the weekend (B) to 2nd Ave as I was alluding to before and I'm glad you are seeing it as well. When they did that Culver Viaduct study before the 2010 budget cuts and the activatioon of the 6th Ave (M) they considered extending the (V) to Brooklyn for that very reason you have just mentioned: The congestion point at 2nd Ave which significantly delayed the (F) as the terminating (V) had to use the switches to get to the inside tracks, then turnaround after fumigation. (well it doesnt matter now but just for the record thats what the MTA considered back when in 2009.)

 

Then again we need to figure out the problem with needed weekend increase on the IND Grand Concourse. Sending the (B) to Brooklyn would logistically work but then again we may not need redundant BMT Brighton service on the weekends either. Kind of a tough one.

 

The (B) could theoretically terminate at Prospect Park but you'd have the same issues as if it turned at 2nd Avenue. Since the (Q) runs at 6 TPH, the (B) would have to get in and get out immediately to avoid screwing up through traffic. Could also extend it down to Kings Highway, but by that point, may as well just send it to Brighton Beach. Brighton would be well-served by an everyday connection to 6th Avenue, but the express really isn't needed. West End doesn't need much more service, but CPW could use another weekend local.

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And once again, I highly doubt the (C) is severely overcrowded on CPW during weekends. Its everyday 10 minute headways can handle the loads. As a frequent rider of the CPW/8th Avenue/Fulton Street/Lefferts & Rockaways side of town, I don't see anybody being left on the platform. If it was, then why wasn't it part of those service enhancements that was releases months back?

Edited by RollOverMyHead

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The (B) could theoretically terminate at Prospect Park but you'd have the same issues as if it turned at 2nd Avenue. Since the (Q) runs at 6 TPH, the (B) would have to get in and get out immediately to avoid screwing up through traffic. Could also extend it down to Kings Highway, but by that point, may as well just send it to Brighton Beach. Brighton would be well-served by an everyday connection to 6th Avenue, but the express really isn't needed. West End doesn't need much more service, but CPW could use another weekend local.

 

Speaking of the BMT West End Line I was thinking of perhaps having the (B) sent to the West End, let it terminate at 9th Ave as the ( M ) did. (Considering that the (R) will resume normal patterns after the Montauge Tunnel work is completed. That can be an alternative. Since when the two split ends of the (R) is recombined into one at all times (except late nights of course) it may resume its approximate 6 TPH on weekends. (Which in reality never happens as the (R) is infamous for delays as a continuous line pre Sandy.

 

I'm starting to think the answer to the weekend IND GC dillemna is increase on the (D) and increase in service on the (C) as much as the Cranberry Street Tunnels can handle. (WTC is out of the question as the (E) is running at 8-10 TPH on weekends I believe ... but then again if WTC can handle 15 TPH max theroretically during rush hours, an increase in (C) weekend service could work)

 

And once again, I highly doubt the (C) is severely overcrowded on CPW during weekends. Its everyday 10 minute headways can handle the loads. As a frequent rider of the CPW/8th Avenue/Fulton Street/Lefferts & Rockaways side of town, I don't see anybody being left on the platform. If it was, then why wasn't it part of those service enhancements that was releases months back?

 

Yes I know, we are taking the (C) problem into consideration.

 

Note above comment on possible solutions to increase (C) weekend service if not (B) weekend service. Please feel free to give feedback on my idea and if you think this is workable as you are in the know.

Edited by realizm

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