cl94 Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1451 Posted February 9, 2014 Speaking of the BMT West End Line I was thinking of perhaps having the sent to the West End, let it terminate at 9th Ave as the ( M ) did. (Considering that the will resume normal patterns after the Montauge Tunnel work is completed. That can be an alternative. Since when the two split ends of the is recombined into one at all times (except late nights of course) it may resume its approximate 6 TPH on weekends. (Which in reality never happens as the is infamous for delays as a continuous line pre Sandy. I'm starting to think the answer to the weekend IND GC dillemna is increase on the and increase in service on the as much as the Cranberry Street Tunnels can handle. (WTC is out of the question as the is running at 8-10 TPH on weekends I believe ... but then again if WTC can handle 15 TPH max theroretically during rush hours, an increase in weekend service could work) Biggest issue with sending the to West End it's a big difference from weekend service. Every other modified weekend service stays within its weekday routing. This is an entirely different part of Brooklyn. 4th Avenue certainly needs extra local service, but I think routing the over there would just confuse people who are used to having it run on Brighton during the week. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1452 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Biggest issue with sending the to West End it's a big difference from weekend service. Every other modified weekend service stays within its weekday routing. This is an entirely different part of Brooklyn. 4th Avenue certainly needs extra local service, but I think routing the over there would just confuse people who are used to having it run on Brighton during the week. They'll get used to it. Add: And once again, I highly doubt the is severely overcrowded on CPW during weekends. Its everyday 10 minute headways can handle the loads. As a frequent rider of the CPW/8th Avenue/Fulton Street/Lefferts & Rockaways side of town, I don't see anybody being left on the platform. If it was, then why wasn't it part of those service enhancements that was releases months back? I'm starting to think the answer to the weekend IND GC dillemna is increase on the and increase in service on the as much as the Cranberry Street Tunnels can handle. (WTC is out of the question as the is running at 8-10 TPH on weekends I believe ... but then again if WTC can handle 15 TPH max theroretically during rush hours, an increase in weekend service could work) Misread you comment, I thought you said you did say that you noticed overcrowding on the , just realized it. Sorry about that. But still its the GC thats getting to the point it is overcrowded. Yes nethertheless let me know what your thoughts are, disregarding the bump in service idea. Edited February 9, 2014 by realizm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeLow Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1453 Posted February 9, 2014 The is already utilizing 2nd Ave frequently and every once in a while the gets rerouted to 2nd Ave via the line so that creates even more congestion. I don't think 2nd Ave will be a good choice. Although it might a bit unfeasible, a permanent terminal could be Bowery. The south/east platform is currently abandoned. It could be revived for the . Of course, that would require digging to connect the to the Bowery station so like I said: it might be unfeasible. But at least that's a station with a platform ready to be used after some cleaning (and connecting the tracks). I'm trying to imagine how the route would be shoe horned into Bowery after leaving Lafayette. Can't access from the going up to Essex then splitting to go under the bend west and then into the abandoned portion from the east, not to mention the relay for two track usage, grading and other logistical situations such as drilling & blasting under Delancey and clearance of the tunnels; can't break/join W/O the and enter/leave Bowery from the west due to design and simply not enough square acreage to build it. Pete's maps illustrates the situation perfectly. If somehow a way was found to do it, the most likely would run local, or switch before entering W4th. You're right...it is unfeasible. Weekend to Bedford Pk is definitely needed. My take from PATCOman's post was his thinking on weekday service since the doesn't run on weekends currently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1454 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) I'm trying to imagine how the route would be shoe horned into Bowery after leaving Lafayette. Can't access from the going up to Essex then splitting to go under the bend west and then into the abandoned portion from the east, not to mention the relay for two track usage, grading and other logistical situations such as drilling & blasting under Delancey and clearance of the tunnels; can't break/join W/O the and enter/leave Bowery from the west due to design and simply not enough square acreage to build it. Pete's maps illustrates the situation perfectly. If somehow a way was found to do it, the most likely would run local, or switch before entering W4th. You're right...it is unfeasible. Weekend to Bedford Pk is definitely needed. My take from PATCOman's post was his thinking on weekday service since the doesn't run on weekends currently. Yes the T/O in his OP was alluding to weekday service, and I brought in the weekend IND Grand Concourse problem. Agreed on sending the to Essex: It cannot work for infrastructure and clearance related reasons. The R68 cars will certaintly sideswap each other if performing turnaround simuntaneously with incoming 8 car R160s/R32s/R42s on the . Unless the T/Ds instructs train crews to stop on red for clearance on the middle of the Willy B and vice versa for the sake of the terminating but I dont think BMT Eastern Division TSS's nor the passengers will be happy with that. Besides the executive committee approved the to Essex as you stated, Saturday and Sunday so I guess for all these reasons we both are mentioning thats a no go. Edited February 9, 2014 by realizm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollOver Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1455 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Yes I know, we are taking the problem into consideration. Note above comment on possible solutions to increase weekend service if not weekend service. Please feel free to give feedback on my idea and if you think this is workable as you are in the know. You are correct that the Cranberry Street Tunnel can handle 15-18 tph, because during rush hours, the mostly runs 9-12 tph. Maybe a train every 8 minutes would work and probably won't be much of a problem, because Saturday and services actually run 7.5 minutes (based on the current timetable). At least, that would be much more better than running the on weekends (only for it to get cut due to GO's and the crews end up getting paid regardless), and even better than running the local on CPW during weekends (only for it to become severely overcrowded on the top of its own riders from the Bronx who are heading to/from Manhattan's CBD). I guess that's the only positive thing I can see about increasing supplement local service on the CPW/8th Avenue/Fulton Street side of town. Edited February 9, 2014 by RollOverMyHead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeLow Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1456 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Yes the T/O in his OP was alluding to weekday service, and I brought in the weekend IND Grand Concourse problem. Agreed on sending the to Essex: It cannot work for infrastructure and clearance related reasons. The R68 cars will certaintly sideswap each other if performing turnaround simuntaneously with incoming 8 car R160s/R32s/R42s on the . Unless the T/Ds instructs train crews to stop on red for clearance on the middle of the Willy B and vice versa for the sake of the terminating but I dont think BMT Eastern Division TSS's nor the passengers will be happy with that. Besides the executive committee approved the to Essex as you stated, Saturday and Sunday so I guess for all these reasons we both are mentioning thats a no go. Then the only real option I see for weekend serve to/from Bedford Pk is to terminate at 2nd Ave. Now...how would the be situated into differing headways btn & without causing too much of a headache? Edited February 9, 2014 by TeeLow 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1457 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Then the only real option I see for weekend serve to/from Bedford Pk is to terminate at 2nd Ave. Now...how would the be situated into differing headways btn & without causing too much of a headache? I guess on the CPW end as they do on rush hours but in a toned down fashion, with the current 8 TPH on the and the 8-10 TPH on the . On the terminating at 2nd Avenue despite the switching delays that can occur it may actually work as it sort of did with the now defunct . Logistically letting the run continuously through the Rutgers Street tube or allowing it to run all the way to the BMT South Brooklyn Division would make sense and the T/Ds would love it, but I'm sure the MTA Financial committee isnt interested in paying the train crews OT. Yes on the 2nd Ave deal and how the will undergo lineups at switches, thats the problem I can see what you are alluding to: If we have the terminate at 2nd Ave then will have to first run switches at 2nd Ave then again at West 4th Street or past 34th Street. Double trouble. Thats two points that holds up both the and that infamous train. Which will be felt as far as the Queens Bvld line creating a not too good of a situation. I still think just running the to Brooklyn wherever, West End, Brighton or even Sea Beach (with the ? Sounds nuts I know) will be the logistical answer. Assuming the financial committe wants to pay for it. 95th Street on the BMT Bay Ridge Line maybe? On the weekends, that may be useful.... Edited February 9, 2014 by realizm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeLow Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1458 Posted February 9, 2014 I guess on the CPW end as they do on rush hours but in a toned down fashion, with the current 8 TPH on the and the 8-10 TPH on the . On the terminating at 2nd Avenue despite the switching delays that can occur it may actually work as it sort of did with the now defunct . Logistically letting the run continuously through the Rutgers Street tube or allowing it to run all the way to the BMT South Brooklyn Division would make sense and the T/Ds would love it, but I'm sure the MTA Financial committee isnt interested in paying the train crews OT. But now theres another problem: If we have the terminate at 2nd Ave then will have to first run switches at 2nd Ave then again at West 4th Street or past 34th Street. Double trouble. Thats two points that holds up both the and that infamous train. Which will be felt as fat as the Queens Bvld line creating a not too good of a situation. I still think just running the to Brooklyn wherever, West End, Brightoin or even Sea Beach (with the ? Sounds nuts I know) will be the logistical answer. Assuming the financial committe wants to pay for it. 95th Street on the BMT Bay Ridge Line maybe? On the weekends, that may be useful.... With as a supplement for the it could be scaled back to 6 TPH, hopefully not causing conflict with the on CPW. The increased headway would allow for a smoother transition with the , even with the multi switching headaches btn 2nd Ave. & 34th St. Sending the via 4th Ave? Might as well go its normal route if it's going that deep into Brooklyn. We go from no service on weekends to extension to 2nd Ave to extension to 9th Ave or even 95th. I can't see that happening without a sacrifice of service somewhere else to balance the financials. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1459 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) With as a supplement for the it could be scaled back to 6 TPH, hopefully not causing conflict with the on CPW. The increased headway would allow for a smoother transition with the , even with the multi switching headaches btn 2nd Ave. & 34th St. Prolly the shouldnt cause a conflict with the as it seems to work on weekdays. As for the multiswitching? If you mean the running 6 TPH I'm all for it. Off peak the is running 8TPH at 7 1/2 minute headways theroretically. with an additional 6 TPH with the ? Its going to be tight but doable as long as there isnt siognificant delays and those dreaded massive GOs happening lately is finished already. Its been a year since the CCC has been knocking out maintainance on the Rutgers St tubes or Cranberry St tubes or 63rd St Line due to Second Ave Line construction and what have you. Sending the via 4th Ave? Might as well go its normal route if it's going that deep into Brooklyn. We go from no service on weekends to extension to 2nd Ave to extension to 9th Ave or even 95th. I can't see that happening without a sacrifice of service somewhere else to balance the financials. Well it wouldnt be worth another fare hike its bad as it is, so you have a point there. Andrew Cuomo just robbed NYC Transit of about 400 million supposedly to pay off bonds, money that could completely reverse the 2010 budget cuts and put the back on the map (scumbag) so yeah... Edited February 9, 2014 by realizm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cl94 Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1460 Posted February 9, 2014 With as a supplement for the it could be scaled back to 6 TPH, hopefully not causing conflict with the on CPW. The increased headway would allow for a smoother transition with the , even with the multi switching headaches btn 2nd Ave. & 34th St. Sending the via 4th Ave? Might as well go its normal route if it's going that deep into Brooklyn. We go from no service on weekends to extension to 2nd Ave to extension to 9th Ave or even 95th. I can't see that happening without a sacrifice of service somewhere else to balance the financials. The runs 6 TPH on weekends per schedule (much less than it should, but it is what it is). Same with the . At that frequency, it wouldn't be too hard to have a switch over north of 34th. On weekdays, there's no reason why the couldn't run into the Bronx. Heck, they could keep the express if they wanted to so 135th Street wouldn't get too backed up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1461 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) The runs 6 TPH on weekends per schedule (much less than it should, but it is what it is). Same with the . At that frequency, it wouldn't be too hard to have a switch over north of 34th. On weekdays, there's no reason why the couldn't run into the Bronx. Heck, they could keep the express if they wanted to so 135th Street wouldn't get too backed up. Woah what? The cut the back further to 6 TPH? Are these guys at the MTA financial commitee insane? No wonder IND Queens Blvd service looks like a disaster right now. Let me look at the scedules, holy.... Edited February 9, 2014 by realizm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollOver Posted February 9, 2014 Share #1462 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) @Realizm http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/ServiceReduction/part1.htm This also helps too. Many lines got their service cut to about 40%. The and got cut to about 17%. The and , however, are still the most frequent of all lines in the system during the weekend periods. Edited February 9, 2014 by RollOverMyHead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1463 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) I use the and for my tutoring sessions during the week and while the is used, the is what people really want though it certainly helps take the pressure off of the train. On weekends, the could do the same thing. I think the issue is that there's not enough demand along CPW, but maybe some people avoid it because of the waits. I use the on weekends along CPW and it's never crowded, but actually I only do that if I forget that only the runs, so I would imagine others do the same, so running the could lead to more folks using CPW during the weekends. Aside from the waits, the stops are quick I must say. Those on the Brighton Line would benefit from the express service on weekends, so I would run it on weekends from Brighton Beach to Bedford Park. The Brighton Line is used well enough to justify the train. Edited February 10, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1464 Posted February 10, 2014 Those on the Brighton Line would benefit from the express service on weekends, so I would run it on weekends from Brighton Beach to Bedford Park. The Brighton Line is used well enough to justify the train. 1) Redundant service on the Brighton on weekends. Not necessary. Scratch that. 2) Sending the to Prospect Park will cause a congestion point causing certain delays on the . Which is why it is not common practice. 3) The MTA financial commitee will not pay for it. That has been established. 4) So the consensus here so far is that those ideas will not work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1465 Posted February 10, 2014 1) Redundant service on the Brighton on weekends. Not necessary. Scratch that. 2) Sending the to Prospect Park will cause a congestion point causing certain delays on the . Which is why it is not common practice. 3) The MTA financial commitee will not pay for it. That has been established. 4) So the consensus here so far is that those ideas will not work. Says who? I was at a transportation meeting in Sheepshead Bay where people were complaining about wanting 6th Avenue access on weekends. At the very least, a study should be conducted to see the feasibility of running service on weekends in the near future. The could be scaled back as a compromise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1466 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Says who? I was at a transportation meeting in Sheepshead Bay where people were complaining about wanting 6th Avenue access on weekends. At the very least, a study should be conducted to see the feasibility of running service on weekends in the near future. The could be scaled back as a compromise. Bet you that study conducted will reflect the conclusions made in this thread, no need to invalidate our knowledge on how NYC Transit works. Besides the being scaled back weekends obviously will create crushloaded trains. With the underused. Also would that help on BMT Broadway service? Nope... Get back to us when the study is complete then we can compare conclusions made.. Edited February 10, 2014 by realizm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1467 Posted February 10, 2014 Bet you that study conducted will reflect the conclusions made in this thread, no need to invalidate our knowledge on how NYC Transit works. Besides the being scaled back obviously will create crushloaded trains. With the underused. Get back to us when the study is complete then we can compare conclusions made.. Years ago I would agree and say that the isn't needed on weekends, but I've been surprised at how well used the is during various parts of the day along the Brighton Line. It also seems to be more reliable of late, so with that said despite all of the problems the may create, if the ridership is there to support then some changes would have to be made. One thing is clear is that the at some point will either have to be increased or supplemented on weekends with the crowds that I see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cl94 Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1468 Posted February 10, 2014 Says who? I was at a transportation meeting in Sheepshead Bay where people were complaining about wanting 6th Avenue access on weekends. At the very least, a study should be conducted to see the feasibility of running service on weekends in the near future. The could be scaled back as a compromise. Bet you that study conducted will reflect the conclusions made in this thread, no need to invalidate our knowledge on how NYC Transit works. Besides the being scaled back weekends obviously will create crushloaded trains. With the underused. Also would that help on BMT Broadway service? Nope... Get back to us when the study is complete then we can compare conclusions made.. While I don't like the idea of cutting service under 6 TPH, Brighton riders currently can't get to 6th Avenue on weekends without a PITA transfer. If the stopped at DeKalb when the wasn't running, that would help, but as of now, it is a PITA for Brighton riders to get to 6th Avenue without the . I'm for doing a study to see if the need warrants service. Not saying that enough people would ride such a service, but it would certainly be better than sending it down 4th Avenue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1469 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) While I don't like the idea of cutting service under 6 TPH, Brighton riders currently can't get to 6th Avenue on weekends without a PITA transfer. If the stopped at DeKalb when the wasn't running, that would help, but as of now, it is a PITA for Brighton riders to get to 6th Avenue without the . I'm for doing a study to see if the need warrants service. Not saying that enough people would ride such a service, but it would certainly be better than sending it down 4th Avenue. I agree... The transportation meeting I was at by the way had nothing do with the train but it came up from several people in the crowd about how they wanted access to 6th Avenue on weekends. I was a bit surprised too because I lived along the Brighton Line for many years and never heard people be so vocal about service on weekends. Edited February 10, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollOver Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1470 Posted February 10, 2014 It is very illogical to have the and/or stop at DeKalb for many reasons anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1471 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) While I don't like the idea of cutting service under 6 TPH, Brighton riders currently can't get to 6th Avenue on weekends without a PITA transfer. If the stopped at DeKalb when the wasn't running, that would help, but as of now, it is a PITA for Brighton riders to get to 6th Avenue without the . I'm for doing a study to see if the need warrants service. Not saying that enough people would ride such a service, but it would certainly be better than sending it down 4th Avenue. Which comes back to the deal that Second Ave as the final stop may be the best bet IMO. Another thing is the community concerns if it was to be scaled back, the . The residents and merchant organizations along Flatbush would not be too happy with that. Local service along the local from Brighton Beach is relatively quick with headways on the totally on point. Many people may want to keep it that way in the majority. Plus it slashes costs compared to all other options. However I will admit service BMT 4th Ave end is a mess. Maybe not now with the tubes closed but once it opens I anticipate the delays may come back to haunt us. So its not a bad idea if the is sent downtown to supplement the horrendous . ====================================================================== This: Says who? I was at a transportation meeting in Sheepshead Bay where people were complaining about wanting 6th Avenue access on weekends. At the very least, a study should be conducted to see the feasibility of running service on weekends in the near future. The could be scaled back as a compromise. And this: I agree... The transportation meeting I was at by the way had nothing do with the train but it came up from several people in the crowd about how they wanted access to 6th Avenue on weekends. I was a bit surprised too because I lived along the Brighton Line for many years and never heard people so vocal about service on weekends. So it had something to do with the train I imagine, the meeting you attended I'm assuming, and it was discussed by the residents and merchants. Try to be more consistent please. Which is it? Edited February 10, 2014 by realizm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1472 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) This: And this: So it had something to do with the train I imagine, the meeting you attended I'm assuming, and it was discussed by the residents and merchants. Try to be more consistent please. Which is it? Um no it didn't... Nice to see that you're trying ever so hard to follow along though... The meeting was about restoring the B4 actually, but it became about transportation in the area in general and that's when the came up. Edited February 10, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1473 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Um no it didn't... Nice to see that you're trying ever so hard to follow along though... The meeting was about restoring the B4 actually, but it became about transportation in the area in general and that's when the came up. Thats nice. Perhaps you could have simply said that. It doesnt change the fact you was not clear on the meeting you attended since you initially stated that there was a discussion on the and nothing else which I quoted to show inconsistencies. Now lets get back to the discussion on the right track. The B4 has nothing to do with service in the Bronx or Manhattan.... where did you get this idea from? Refer to the bus and subway maps as well as studies published on this issue regarding secondary 6th Ave service conducted (on mta.info of course) if you are not clear on the topic which is what we are trying to do here. Edited February 10, 2014 by realizm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1474 Posted February 10, 2014 Thats nice. Perhaps you could have simply said that. It doesnt change the fact you was not clear on the meeting you attended since you initially stated that there was a discussion on the and nothing else which I quoted to show inconsistencies. Now lets get back to the discussion on the right track. The B4 has noithing to do with service in the Bronx or Manhattan.... where did you get this idea from? Refer to the bus and subway maps as well as studies published on this issue regarding secondary 6th Ave service conducted (on mta.info of course) if you are not clear on the topic which is what we are trying to do here. Just focus, and stick to the point reflected in the OP. Thanks. You asked what the meeting was about and how the came up and I explained. I don't know what is so hard to understand... Smh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted February 10, 2014 Share #1475 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) You asked what the meeting was about and how the came up and I explained. I don't know what is so hard to understand... Smh No I didnt. You brought it up in post # 29. I dont think you need to keep going on and on over a non issue, saying one thing and then saying the opposite in attempts to try and cause confusion in yet another thread. Its annoying. Know what? Just send me a PM over this non issue so we can get back to the point of the discussion which is what we are interested in doing. Thanks. Edited February 10, 2014 by realizm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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