How Will SAS Restructure the Broadway Line

[chenvinny54]

I think it should be a because of the fact the way schedules are already set it wouldn't be to hard to have an even headway.

So lets recap your response. You mean overall, operate local and operates express during peak hours on the Sea Beach line. Well fair enough, then should extend to Bay Ridge 95 St, to make it a real rush service, to resolve the suffering risk of waiting in the great crowds of customers, pushing really hard to get a seat, anytime the train comes.

[chenvinny54]

I think it should be a because of the fact the way schedules are already set it wouldn't be to hard to have an even headway.

Imagine that without our proposals: there is only one train comes, and the Bay Ridge 95 Street is crowded. Just nearly 50% of the great wave of crowds, all over the station, fits in a whole train, while other half are feeling stressed out, waiting maybe another 8 minutes for the next train. Some of the same group of passengers who wanted to get in, we never know, they might still have hard time to get into the train since everybody wants to hop on. So two heads working together better than one, we propoeed to help the resolve the crowding issue.

[Caelestor]

and cannot go into Brooklyn via the Montague. R32s and R42s cannot go through the Montague Tube.

 

The will be coming back and going to Astoria. As for the southern end, that is unknown yet. 

 

Thanks for the heads-up. Personally, I don't think the will ever be extended to Brooklyn, though I think that that the future , if it ever gets to Lower Manhattan, has to be routed via Nassau St. Fairly easy connection to Brooklyn via an underutilized tunnel, yard access for the , and definitely a lot cheaper than building two somewhat unnecessary subway stations in Lower Manhattan. Only question is if the connection is via the tail tracks under Canal St or SAS is linked up via Worth St, which may allow for the stop at Chatham Square.

[bobtehpanda]

Thanks for the heads-up. Personally, I don't think the will ever be extended to Brooklyn, though I think that that the future , if it ever gets to Lower Manhattan, has to be routed via Nassau St. Fairly easy connection to Brooklyn via an underutilized tunnel, yard access for the , and definitely a lot cheaper than building two somewhat unnecessary subway stations in Lower Manhattan. Only question is if the connection is via the tail tracks under Canal St or SAS is linked up via Worth St, which may allow for the stop at Chatham Square.

 

The issue with using Nassau St is how exactly you do that in the first place. Every option that the MTA looked at for doing so was very disruptive and required a lot of underpinning/demolition of existing buildings and parks, which is part of the reason why they went with Deep Chrystie. Deep Chrystie is also more useful; Water St is an underserved corridor, there isn't really a good way to go to FiDi if you're in Chinatown and using mass transit unless you want to schlep to the M15 on Allen, and Deep Chrystie does not limit the southern terminal capacity of SAS to whatever scraps are left at DeKalb, which is important if the Queens-SAS connection is ever used in service.

[Wallyhorse]

The issue with using Nassau St is how exactly you do that in the first place. Every option that the MTA looked at for doing so was very disruptive and required a lot of underpinning/demolition of existing buildings and parks, which is part of the reason why they went with Deep Chrystie. Deep Chrystie is also more useful; Water St is an underserved corridor, there isn't really a good way to go to FiDi if you're in Chinatown and using mass transit unless you want to schlep to the M15 on Allen, and Deep Chrystie does not limit the southern terminal capacity of SAS to whatever scraps are left at DeKalb, which is important if the Queens-SAS connection is ever used in service.

Plus as I've noted before, this would allow the to be extended via a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel to Brooklyn to where it can connect with the Fulton Street line and become the full-time Fulton Local to Euclid (extended late nights to Lefferts), allowing the and to both run express on Fulton with the to the Rockaways full-time and the to Lefferts (yes, it would mean having to move the Transit Museum since the existing Court Street Station it uses would be repurposed into an actual station like it was years ago, but that's 30-40 years down the line).  

 

It's not just the buildings that are an issue with having the go via Nassau, it's also issues with DeKalb as I understand it.  It would have been good to do it that way because it would have relieved overcrowding between Atlantic-Barclays and 125th on the and , however, the if it went via Fulton can handle a good chunk of that as well and for many looking for the east side eliminate having to switch to the at Jay-Metrotech or at Fulton. 

[kaciezr]

Clearance issues within the tunnel with the cables.

 

The bodies of the R46s & 160s are up to a foot narrower at the top than the bottom, compared to the R32s & 42s being a flat 10' wide top & bottom.

 

Are the cables new?  Surely the ran plenty of R32s & 42s through the Montague Tunnels up until a decade or so ago.  Seems like a bit of an oversight to suddenly banish active fleet where they've been okay to run before.

[Roadcruiser1]

Even if you want to extend the to South Brooklyn you will have to bring it down with the to avoid the skip stop issues on the B.M.T. Jamaica Line, but in doing so you will have no room to extend the to South Brooklyn regardless, and you will no longer have enough room to run the to South Brooklyn either. . So now you have the , and terminate at Whitehall Street, and the , and the running through the B.M.T. Montague Street Tunnels instead, and the , and will have to follow the same route together to preserve their timing so they will both have to end up going to Bay Ridge - 95th Street. . Will this be a good solution? . I see it as 50/50. . Maybe you will still have the routing issue now moved on over to the , but maybe you can run skip stop into South Brooklyn? .

[Lordsaitamaboss]

Even if you want to extend the to South Brooklyn you will have to bring it down with the to avoid the skip stop issues on the B.M.T. Jamaica Line, but in doing so you will have no room to extend the to South Brooklyn regardless, and you will no longer have enough room to run the to South Brooklyn either. . So now you have the , and terminate at Whitehall Street, and the , and the running through the B.M.T. Montague Street Tunnels instead, and the , and will have to follow the same route together to preserve their timing so they will both have to end up going to Bay Ridge - 95th Street. . Will this be a good solution? . I see it as 50/50. . Maybe you will still have the routing issue now moved on over to the , but maybe you can run skip stop into South Brooklyn? .

So what South Brooklyn doesn't need the or the with the /(Z) there. Skip-stop in South Brooklyn isn't needed with the 4th ave express trains being available. The would provide much better service than the anyway due to a huge portion of it's route being used only by the anyway while the and would have multiple merges and delays already slowing them down in other words would provide disastrous service due to accumulated delays that simply do not exist on the Nassau street line. There is no routing issue let the   /(Z) run the same route in South Brooklyn at stations in Manhattan they alternate providing service levels and consistency not available on the broadway locals minus the Broadway line or Queens blvd line problems. Ending R and W service in Manhattan would significantly improve service on those services or even better simply add N and R service so the W is no longer needed at all.

[CenSin]

The 160s are programmed with nearly ever possible B division combination of route and terminal. It's part of the F in "FIND", Flexible.

 

As to this thread, it will most likely be a return to pre-2010 on Broadway. We don't need to rehash this every other day...

Not flexible enough. With the cheap tablet technology we have today, we could have an even more flexible procedure:

1. Select number/letter.
2. Select circle or diamond.
3. Drag your fingers over the subway map graphic to plot the route. (The software will select the most sensible points for fat, inaccurate fingers.)
4. All the stations will be selected by default. If express tracks are available for some portions of the line, an express/local option will appear over all those segments, and you can make the selection for each segment.
5. If any other stops need to be skipped or made, poke the individual dots representing the stations.
6. Confirm selections, and all the external and internal displays reflect the selection.

[2Line1291]

There's no way around this conga. The way the Broadway Line is designed from north to south doesn't really warrant the to run in peace unless there's cross tracks which causes delays ultimately.

[LTA1992]

Run in peace he says. Truth be told, I'd rather trains diverge from the above 57th Street.

[2Line1291]

I don't see anything changing outside of going back to the previous set-up. Anything is better than the current setup. Real changes are going to seen to the Broadway Line if something like the Fulton Ave local tracks are tied in with the Montague Tunnel tracks allowing the to Euclid Ave and the to 125th or the Bronx depending what happens

[CenSin]

Extend the local tracks to meet up with the express tracks north of 57 Street–7 Avenue. That alone will solve a lot of problems, such as allowing short-turns at 57 Street–7 Avenue with through service from 2 Avenue. It can’t be that hard, right?

[Around the Horn]

Extend the local tracks to meet up with the express tracks north of 57 Street–7 Avenue. That alone will solve a lot of problems, such as allowing short-turns at 57 Street–7 Avenue with through service from 2 Avenue. It can’t be that hard, right?

Turn those into tail tracks a la Church Av and terminate the express there.

and run on the local with trains to Astoria every 4 minutes rush hours and every 8 minutes middays.

[CenSin]

Turn those into tail tracks a la Church Av and terminate the express there.

and run on the local with trains to Astoria every 4 minutes rush hours and every 8 minutes middays.

That would force trains to merge with the and on the local tracks. The use cases for this would be:

•  
• running both a local and express service to 2 Avenue.
• running a local service to 2 Avenue and using the express tracks as terminal space.

--------------------------------

 

Absent that, the MTA could pump Astoria with insanely frequent local service, and have the run express with the to 96 Street. Astoria will have their high-frequency service, the Upper East Side will have their high-frequency service, and Brooklyn doesn’t get excessive service since trains from the Upper East Side are split between Brighton and Sea Beach with the terminating in Manhattan. The MTA also doesn’t spend much more money on the frequent Astoria service since the is short enough to be half of a route, but it will have to investigate making the lower level of City Hall a usable terminal since Whitehall Street is obviously not going to permit high-frequency turn-around.

 

The choke points will be:

• Southbound and trains merging into the 60 Street tunnel
• Northbound and trains merging onto the Manhattan bridge

Northbound and trains only diverge since they are one and same in Manhattan. This will be also true of the southbound  and .

 

Astoria riders needing express service will have to transfer, but with buttery-smooth service going up and down Broadway, passengers really can’t complain about losing the one-seat option.

[Around the Horn]

Absent that, the MTA could pump Astoria with insanely frequent local service, and have the run express with the to 96 Street. Astoria will have their high-frequency service, the Upper East Side will have their high-frequency service, and Brooklyn doesn’t get excessive service since trains from the Upper East Side are split between Brighton and Sea Beach with the terminating in Manhattan. The MTA also doesn’t spend much more money on the frequent Astoria service since the is short enough to be half of a route, but it will have to investigate making the lower level of City Hall a usable terminal since Whitehall Street is obviously not going to permit high-frequency turn-around.

 

 

The choke points will be:

• Southbound and trains merging into the 60 Street tunnel
• Northbound and trains merging onto the Manhattan bridge

Northbound and trains only diverge since they are one and same in Manhattan. This will be also true of the southbound  and .

 

Astoria riders needing express service will have to transfer, but with buttery-smooth service going up and down Broadway, passengers really can’t complain about losing the one-seat option.

That's what I was thinking except the "extra" trains would extend into Brooklyn via 4 Av Local to either 9 Av, Gravesend-86 St or Bay Ridge-95 St.

 

If that connection someone proposed between Court Street and Hoyt-Schermerhorn was built, trains could run via Fulton St Local to Euclid with trains express to Lefferts.

[CenSin]

That's what I was thinking except the "extra" trains would extend into Brooklyn via 4 Av Local to either 9 Av, Gravesend-86 St or Bay Ridge-95 St.

Pretty much like the pre-service-cut pattern, but Bay Ridge has no yard access.

 

 

If that connection someone proposed between Court Street and Hoyt-Schermerhorn was built, trains could run via Fulton St Local to Euclid with trains express to Lefferts.

That would be a massive expansion of service. The would essentially become a full-time line due to Court Street being solely served by the . Maybe it could be reduced to a shuttle between Whitehall Street and Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets.

[2Line1291]

Pretty much like the pre-service-cut pattern, but Bay Ridge has no yard access.

 

That would be a massive expansion of service. The would essentially become a full-time line due to Court Street being solely served by the . Maybe it could be reduced to a shuttle between Whitehall Street and Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets.

There's no right or wrong answers of course but here's my opinion. If you're taking about late night service.. In that event, the can still run from Astoria to Euclid Ave all times.

 

- The "or" can be shuttle that run to Whitehall. I would go for the from Bay Ridge to Whitehall late nights and the from Coney Island to 59th St late nights and the

- the can be a shuttle from Euclid to Lefferts Ave or the can be extended to Lefferts late nights

[R62AR33]

Which is why I would NEVER send the there.  I did (as noted on this post) have the idea of a new train serving 95th, but that was to supplement the in Brooklyn, NOT replace it.

 

As already said, my far-from-perfect solution on this end would be a multi-way swap of Brooklyn terminals to make sure lines have yards on at least one end like this:

 

would move to 95th-Bay Ridge on the southern end and runs to 205 as it does now (skipping DeKalb except late nights).

 

remains on Sea Beach, but becomes the 4th Avenue local (also stopping at DeKalb and running over the bridge) and runs as follows:

 

Weekdays (5:30 AM-11:30 PM): To Astoria as it does now, except it would be express to 57th and merge north of 57th (as opposed to how the merges now).

 

Late nights (11:30 PM-5:30 AM) and weekends (11:30 PM Friday-5:30 AM Monday): To 71-Continental.  This allows the to return to being an express on QB 24/7 OR give QB two locals late nights.

 

This obviously requires the and to switch tracks at 59th Street-4th Avenue unless somehow new connections could be built that allow the respective lines to come in on the track opposite the current setup.  This is simply a lesser evil in this case.

 

moves to the West End Line and runs Coney Island to 96th/2nd that way, express on 4th Avenue and skipping DeKalb Avenue (except late nights)

 

moves to the Brighton Line and runs 24/7 between Coney Island and Astoria (this gives it CI yard and yes is the current route on weekdays).  

 

runs Whitehall Street to 71st-Continental weekdays (5:30 AM-11:30 PM). Late nights and weekends as noted, the replaces the this way, giving QB 24/7 service from Broadway.

 

Just to me the lesser evil in trying to untangle the current mess in Brooklyn once the SAS opens.  

You sir love to complicate things more then what they already are...

[Daniel The Cool]

They can if they don't run R32s or 42s. R32s and 42s won't be running on the J and Z forever, even though it may seem like they will, given the R179 issues.

Well they can't move to because they're banned from those lines due to the clearance issue (Snowblock confirmed it last year) and is getting majority of the R179s so with that said the only possibility is the R32s remaining on the until retirement

[Roadcruiser1]

I would like to see another tunnel built near the B.M.T. 60th Street Tunnels. . They are pretty much already at overcapacity. . Keep the I.N.D. 63rd Street Tunnels for the I.N.D. 2nd Avenue Subway, and the I.N.D. Queens Boulevard Super Express using the so that way you can increase the current capacity of trains running on the I.N.D. Queens Boulevard Line too as well. .

[Wallyhorse]

You sir love to complicate things more then what they already are...

It may be complicated, but if you didn't have the issue of a yard for the train I would have simply returned the to its pre-1987 routing of 95th Street-Astoria.  The reason I have the there is specifically because the has Concourse Yard on the north end.

[Around the Horn]

Pretty much like the pre-service-cut pattern, but Bay Ridge has no yard access.

 

That would be a massive expansion of service. The would essentially become a full-time line due to Court Street being solely served by the . Maybe it could be reduced to a shuttle between Whitehall Street and Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets.

Court Street on the . My bad, should have specified.

[CenSin]

remains on Sea Beach, but becomes the 4th Avenue local (also stopping at DeKalb and running over the bridge) and runs as follows:

 

Weekdays (5:30 AM-11:30 PM): To Astoria as it does now, except it would be express to 57th and merge north of 57th (as opposed to how the merges now).

 

Late nights (11:30 PM-5:30 AM) and weekends (11:30 PM Friday-5:30 AM Monday): To 71-Continental.  This allows the to return to being an express on QB 24/7 OR give QB two locals late nights.

So the is basically two very different services with the same label. …kinda like some man who’s a professional white collar worker by day and a cross-dressing drag queen by night.

[bstar1]

Whenever returns is also like another .