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W train coming back this fall


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IMO the (W) via sea beach to kings hwy would make more sense when they order enough cars calling for its extension, right now nothing will be extended via 4th ave since they barely have enough cars at the moment.

That's good, but now the question (for me is) what if the (MTA) decides to run an R32 or 42 on the (W) to Brooklyn via the Montague tubes?*

 

*The tubes in question (as most of you guys know) have clearance issues with the 32's and 42's.

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That's good, but now the question (for me is) what if the (MTA) decides to run an R32 or 42 on the (W) to Brooklyn via the Montague tubes?*

 

*The tubes in question (as most of you guys know) have clearance issues with the 32's and 42's.

The (W) wouldn't use either equipment. It would use R160s with possible R68s.
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Would they put some r160's on the B since its also part of Coney Island Yard?

No because the  (N)  (Q) swap trains at Ditmars Blvd often and if a  (B) train has issues in the Bronx or in Concourse yard and cant get to C.I yard. Concourse will most likely repair it and they dont have parts to repair R160s from what Im hearing

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If anything is gonna be the 4th Av local, it's the (W), not (N). And even so, 1. You can't make the (W) use two different lines in Brooklyn, and 2. the (D) and (N) do just fine on their respective lines. If anything, just have the (W) run the (brownM) route to Bay parkway rush hours and call it a day. If ridership is justified enough, put that extension into effect middays and eves.

But it's not like the (W) can get extended now as there are not enough trains for such extensions.

 

First of all:

 

In Astoria, the (N) would run every 3 - 6 minutes, with the Brooklyn service running every 9 minutes (peak), and the Whitehall short turns running every 9 minutes (peak), the (W) would run express every 9 minutes (peak) from Astoria into Brooklyn.  The combined headways would be every 3 minutes, which Astoria residents would be happy with.  At 12 minute headways (middays) the combined headways in Astoria would be every 4 minutes, and every 15 minutes (evenings) combined every 5 minutes.  Making the (N) Local simplifies things as far as what train people takes to what region at any time.  There is one train that makes the local stops and runs through Lower Manhattan 24/7 into Brooklyn to 95th Street, and that is the (N).

 

Secondly:

 

The (W) would not be using two different lines in Brooklyn.  It would use the Sea Beach Line or the West End Line at any time.  By running the (N) Local all the way down to 95th Street, 4th Avenue would have the proper service that it needs, along with the Astoria line.  Brooklyn residents wanting the quickest possible way into Manhattan would transfer at 59th Street or 36th Street to the (W).

 

I suggested the West End Line as a short term situation until the Sea Beach Line is repaired.  Once Sea Beach is repaired, the (W) can run via Sea Beach.  No loss of express service during the days, while keeping 24/7 (N) Local service.

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Brooklyn residents wanting the quickest possible way into Manhattan would transfer at 59th Street or 36th Street to the (W).

I’ve done lots and lots of transfers, and I know well enough that transfers add (headway/2) minutes to the trip, which—with the 10 minute headways on most lines—will cost 5 minutes on average. Thus, a transfer will usually cancel out the time savings of taking an express.

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I’ve done lots and lots of transfers, and I know well enough that transfers add (headway/2) minutes to the trip, which—with the 10 minute headways on most lines—will cost 5 minutes on average. Thus, a transfer will usually cancel out the time savings of taking an express.

 

Heading to Pacific Street, I would say take the Local, but if you are going to Canal Street, 14th Street or 34th Street, you would save time.  I also proposed having direct (W) service along the corridor so Sea Beach residents won't bitch about the (N) running local.

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Where the heck did the (R) go in your scenario?

 

As of right now, unchanged.  The (R) would run at all times except nights, supplementing the (N) 24/7 Local along Broadway, the tunnel, and 4th Avenue.  

 

In a three route scenario I would have the (N) running every three to five minutes as a tunnel local on Broadway and 4th Avenue, with some trains terminating at Whitehall, and the (Q)(R) trains running via bridge express, every 10 to 12 minutes each.  The (R) could run express to 34th Street (running via 60th Street tunnel) or to 57th Street (running via 63rd Street tunnel).

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if you are going to Canal Street, 14th Street or 34th Street, you would save time.

Not enough time. Currently the (N) is the fastest single-seat ride to Canal Street from Coney Island. Before the cuts, it was the fastest way to Canal Street, 14 Street–Union Square, …, Astoria–Ditmars Boulevard. With your changes, the ride would lengthen by 4.5 minutes average which is an eternity when you’re standing on the platform doing nothing. (I study on the train and the platform, so waiting times are inconsequential to me.)

 

 

As of right now, unchanged.  The (R) would run at all times except nights, supplementing the (N) 24/7 Local along Broadway, the tunnel, and 4th Avenue.  

 

In a three route scenario I would have the (N) running every three to five minutes as a tunnel local on Broadway and 4th Avenue, with some trains terminating at Whitehall, and the (Q)(R) trains running via bridge express, every 10 to 12 minutes each.  The (R) could run express to 34th Street (running via 60th Street tunnel) or to 57th Street (running via 63rd Street tunnel).

If this (R) is also 4 Avenue express, I smell trouble. Please do post the complete specification of your plan in one unbroken post.

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First of all:

 

In Astoria, the (N) would run every 3 - 6 minutes, with the Brooklyn service running every 9 minutes (peak), and the Whitehall short turns running every 9 minutes (peak), the (W) would run express every 9 minutes (peak) from Astoria into Brooklyn. The combined headways would be every 3 minutes, which Astoria residents would be happy with. At 12 minute headways (middays) the combined headways in Astoria would be every 4 minutes, and every 15 minutes (evenings) combined every 5 minutes. Making the (N) Local simplifies things as far as what train people takes to what region at any time. There is one train that makes the local stops and runs through Lower Manhattan 24/7 into Brooklyn to 95th Street, and that is the (N).

 

Secondly:

 

The (W) would not be using two different lines in Brooklyn. It would use the Sea Beach Line or the West End Line at any time. By running the (N) Local all the way down to 95th Street, 4th Avenue would have the proper service that it needs, along with the Astoria line. Brooklyn residents wanting the quickest possible way into Manhattan would transfer at 59th Street or 36th Street to the (W).

 

I suggested the West End Line as a short term situation until the Sea Beach Line is repaired. Once Sea Beach is repaired, the (W) can run via Sea Beach. No loss of express service during the days, while keeping 24/7 (N) Local service.

So basically, you're renaming the (N) the (W) (after sea beach is done with rehabilitation), making the (N) run the pre-1980s (R) and making the (R) go via Manhattan Bridge?

The best way to "simplify" service is to have the (N) run express in Manhattan weekends as well, with increased (R) service on the weekend to help out those local riders.

And sea beach does not have the ridership to hold down two lines. The (N) is fine the way it is. Again, just make the (R) increase in TPH and call it a day. It may be hard to increase TPH on weekdays due to sharing tracks between Lex Av and Herald Sq.

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So basically, you're renaming the (N) the (W) (after sea beach is done with rehabilitation), making the (N) run the pre-1980s (R) and making the (R) go via Manhattan Bridge?

The best way to "simplify" service is to have the (N) run express in Manhattan weekends as well, with increased (R) service on the weekend to help out those local riders.

And sea beach does not have the ridership to hold down two lines. The (N) is fine the way it is. Again, just make the (R) increase in TPH and call it a day. It may be hard to increase TPH on weekdays due to sharing tracks between Lex Av and Herald Sq.

Increased (R) service on weekends will not work with all of the constant Queens Blvd G.Os. Just have the (N) return to it's pre 2010 service and call it day. His ideas was so confusing and it wouldn't work at all. 

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So basically, you're renaming the (N) the (W) (after sea beach is done with rehabilitation), making the (N) run the pre-1980s (R) and making the (R) go via Manhattan Bridge?

The best way to "simplify" service is to have the (N) run express in Manhattan weekends as well, with increased (R) service on the weekend to help out those local riders.

And sea beach does not have the ridership to hold down two lines. The (N) is fine the way it is. Again, just make the (R) increase in TPH and call it a day. It may be hard to increase TPH on weekdays due to sharing tracks between Lex Av and Herald Sq.

 

No, because the (N) would still run to Coney Island.  And the 4th Avenue Local line needs the service increase also during the weekdays, which is why I would have the (N) run Local and the (W) express.

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Not enough time. Currently the (N) is the fastest single-seat ride to Canal Street from Coney Island. Before the cuts, it was the fastest way to Canal Street, 14 Street–Union Square, …, Astoria–Ditmars Boulevard. With your changes, the ride would lengthen by 4.5 minutes average which is an eternity when you’re standing on the platform doing nothing. (I study on the train and the platform, so waiting times are inconsequential to me.)

 

 

If this (R) is also 4 Avenue express, I smell trouble. Please do post the complete specification of your plan in one unbroken post.

 

Scenario 1: With (N)(Q)(R)(W) service:  Which is what I had stated much earlier.  Headways are given in this example.

 

(N) - Astoria / Broadway Tunnel Local / 4th Avenue Local / Sea Beach Line:  All local stops between Astoria and Coney Island, running 24/7, with additional trains terminating at Whitehall Street, weekdays 6 AM to 11 PM.

 

Headways: (Times are given as examples)

 

Peak: Every 3 - 6 minutes (which in MTA speak is 07:03, 07:09, 07:12, 07:18, so forth), with W service Astoria residents would get a train every 3 minutes.  In addition some of these trains will terminate at Whitehall Street, so Brooklyn residents would get service every 9 minutes, or every other train coming from Manhattan.

 

Middays: Every 4 - 8 minutes (13:00, 13:08, 13:12, 13:20, so forth)

 

Evenings: Every 5 - 10 minutes (20:00, 20:05; 20:15, 20:20, so forth)

 

Weekends: Every 12 minutes most of the day, late weekend evenings every 15 minutes.  All trains run to Brooklyn.

 

(W) - Astoria / Broadway Bridge Express / 4th Avenue Express: Runs between 6 AM and 11 PM weekdays, and 6 AM to 10 PM weekends between Astoria and Coney Island via Sea Beach Line (During the repairs would run on West End Line to Bay Parkway).

 

Headways:

 

Peak: Every 9 minutes (07:06, 07:15, 07:24, so forth)

Middays & Weekend days: Every 12 minutes (13:04, 13:16, 13:28, so forth)

Evenings: Every 15 minutes (19:55, 20:10, 20:25, 20:40)

 

(Q) - 2nd Avenue / Broadway Bridge Express / Brighton Local: 24/7 service between 96th Street / 2nd Avenue (for right now, 57th Street / 7th Avenue) to Coney Island running via Broadway Express and Manhattan Bridge, including overnights.

 

(R) - Queens Blvd / Broadway Tunnel Local / 4th Avenue Local / Bay Ridge: All local stops between Forest Hills and Bay Ridge.  Service unchanged.  Late night Bay Ridge Shuttle unchanged as well.  Headways: Every 10 - 12 minutes most of the day, while during the peak every 8 minutes.

 

In this scenario, all (N) trains run via Whitehall Street 24/7 as the Broadway Local, thus the (N) is the primary Broadway Local and 4th Avenue Local.  If anyone wants local service to Lower Manhattan they think the N train.  In Brooklyn N and R Local service combined would make about every 4-5 minutes, while in Astoria, combined headways would be every 3 - 5 minutes most of the day.  Current combined N & Q headways are about every 5 minutes, with each train running separately every 10 minutes.  Sea Beach riders would still have (W) express service to Manhattan, but also have the familiar (N) Local service.  In the scenario I have listed the full time service always running local and through the tunnel, while the service that does not run 24/7 running express in Manhattan and through the bridge.

 

Scenario 2 - With only (N)(Q)(R) service

 

(N) - N runs every 4, or 5 minutes out of Astoria, most of the day, with some trains terminating at Whitehall Street weekdays 6 AM to 11 PM.  Trains would run local at all stops along Broadway, Lower Manhattan and 4th Avenue 24/7.  

 

(Q) - 96th Street / 2nd Avenue via Broadway Express and Brighton Local to Coney Island.  Would run express in Manhattan 24/7.

 

(R) - Would run as the Broadway Express and 4th Avenue Express from 59th Street in Brooklyn to 34th Street in Manhattan (if running via 60th Street tunnel) or 57th Street (if running via 63rd Street tunnel).  Hours of operation not changed.  

 

The Q & R trains would run every 10 - 12 minutes most of the day, with peak service every 8 minutes.

 

Now let's address some things here:

 

In this scenario I would prefer the R running up 63rd Street, but the MTA truly needs to fix up the tunnels before something like that could happen, but it would otherwise make the most sense to have the Forest Hills and Harlem trains run express on Broadway leaving one local service that would never switch tracks in Manhattan along the Broadway Line.  Also a physical transfer would need to be setup between 60th Street and 63rd Street, connecting the F, Q, and R trains to the N, 4, 5, and 6 trains.  Whether running up 60th Street or 63rd Street, I would support having the headways for the R decrease, and to increase headways on the M and N trains to make it up.

 

Now in Brooklyn things might have to be fixed up at 59th Street, from what I have heard, but traveling down there many times, I know for a fact that the N would have no problem running local on the 4th Avenue Line to get to the Sea Beach Line.  The question is can the Bay Ridge trains make the switch to the express tracks, but in the overnights doesn't the R run express? Also in G.O.s doesn't the R switch to the express tracks from Bay Ridge?  I would be open to the (D) going to Bay Ridge via 4th Avenue Local, the (R) running down West End / 4th Avenue Express and the (N) running express along 4th Avenue, or having both the (N)(R) run local along 4th Avenue.

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@triple: All you're doing in your "idea" is just rerouting (or alternating, whatever) trains here and there (like the current setup on the (A) and the rush hour  (5)) as well as reducing service on the (Q) and (R) from 6 minute headways to 8 minute headways, creating more passenger overcrowding and delays at the Brighton Local stations and the amount of Local Queens Boulevard and Local 4th Avenue customers trying to change to other lines from the (R) train itself. Lastly, the "4-8 minute" or "5-10 minute" headway thingy means that if a passenger waits up to 8 or 10 minutes, the arriving train would already be full to the brim and the next train behind being less crowded. That kind of headway is not a good way to even passenger crowds. And what's up with the late evening (N) and (W) both running every 12-15 minutes or more instead of 10 minutes or shorter?

 

Anyway, I'm glad the (MTA) made the final decision in bringing back the pre-2010 setup for the Broadway Line, with the permanent (Q) reroute to and from SAS. Simple.

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There is a reason the (R) runs express late nights and not the daytime.

There is litte ridership needed for the (R) to continue to Forest hills, so 36 St is the closest thing to a terminal, and due to the relays delaying the local (D) and (N), the (R) is forced to go express to 36 St. On the express track, there are no trains at that time that can get delayed, meaning the (R) can relay as long as needed. Plus, compared to the daytime, the track switching done at 59 St is easier at night because in the daytime, there is so much more frequent service, and I know it would be hell if I had to wait on my express (R) if the (N) had to switch from the express (sea beach) tracks to the local tracks in order for the (R) to go from the local (bay ridge) tracks to the express tracks.

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Plus trains towards Coney Island is more demanding than trains to 95 St.

 

The (B), (D), (N), (Q), and (R) all have 6 minute headways rush hours if running on time...but yes, the expresses via the Manhattan Bridge are more demanding than the locals via the Montague Street Tunnel.

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@triple I was hoping you had done the following:

(N) Astoria-95 St via Local (I'd throw in a LaGuardia extension with a Ravenswood Yard)

(Q) 96 St-Coney Island via Express

(R) 71 Av-Whitehall Street via Local (with late night trips to CIY running to Kings Hwy and Gravesend-86 St)

(W) Astoria- Coney Island via Express

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Scenario 1: With (N)(Q)(R)(W) service: Which is what I had stated much earlier. Headways are given in this example.

 

(N) - Astoria / Broadway Tunnel Local / 4th Avenue Local / Sea Beach Line: All local stops between Astoria and Coney Island, running 24/7, with additional trains terminating at Whitehall Street, weekdays 6 AM to 11 PM.

 

Headways: (Times are given as examples)

 

Peak: Every 3 - 6 minutes (which in MTA speak is 07:03, 07:09, 07:12, 07:18, so forth), with W service Astoria residents would get a train every 3 minutes. In addition some of these trains will terminate at Whitehall Street, so Brooklyn residents would get service every 9 minutes, or every other train coming from Manhattan.

 

Middays: Every 4 - 8 minutes (13:00, 13:08, 13:12, 13:20, so forth)

 

Evenings: Every 5 - 10 minutes (20:00, 20:05; 20:15, 20:20, so forth)

 

Weekends: Every 12 minutes most of the day, late weekend evenings every 15 minutes. All trains run to Brooklyn.

 

(W) - Astoria / Broadway Bridge Express / 4th Avenue Express: Runs between 6 AM and 11 PM weekdays, and 6 AM to 10 PM weekends between Astoria and Coney Island via Sea Beach Line (During the repairs would run on West End Line to Bay Parkway).

 

Headways:

 

Peak: Every 9 minutes (07:06, 07:15, 07:24, so forth)

Middays & Weekend days: Every 12 minutes (13:04, 13:16, 13:28, so forth)

Evenings: Every 15 minutes (19:55, 20:10, 20:25, 20:40)

 

(Q) - 2nd Avenue / Broadway Bridge Express / Brighton Local: 24/7 service between 96th Street / 2nd Avenue (for right now, 57th Street / 7th Avenue) to Coney Island running via Broadway Express and Manhattan Bridge, including overnights.

 

(R) - Queens Blvd / Broadway Tunnel Local / 4th Avenue Local / Bay Ridge: All local stops between Forest Hills and Bay Ridge. Service unchanged. Late night Bay Ridge Shuttle unchanged as well. Headways: Every 10 - 12 minutes most of the day, while during the peak every 8 minutes.

 

In this scenario, all (N) trains run via Whitehall Street 24/7 as the Broadway Local, thus the (N) is the primary Broadway Local and 4th Avenue Local. If anyone wants local service to Lower Manhattan they think the N train. In Brooklyn N and R Local service combined would make about every 4-5 minutes, while in Astoria, combined headways would be every 3 - 5 minutes most of the day. Current combined N & Q headways are about every 5 minutes, with each train running separately every 10 minutes. Sea Beach riders would still have (W) express service to Manhattan, but also have the familiar (N) Local service. In the scenario I have listed the full time service always running local and through the tunnel, while the service that does not run 24/7 running express in Manhattan and through the bridge.

I live in Astoria, and I'm having a lot of difficulty in understanding how this could even work. Astoria needs even headways during rush hours because Ditmars Blvd. doesn't have a yard, only a two track terminal. The (N) / (Q) generally work well together in the morning rush but there are a lot of issues with trains bunching up together in the evening rush. Ditmars-bound trains start inching around 5 PM after the Broadway station because off the ridiculous terminal congestion. A major cause of this is that the (N) and (Q) both start their long routes in Coney Island, and neither line is able to run on schedule by the time they arrive in Astoria.

 

People in Astoria had better service pre-2010 with the (W), and most of us are excited to see it come back. The (W) will even out spacing and be less prone to delays because it short turns at Whitehall Street. Your plan will only exacerbate the current problem, not help it.

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I live in Astoria, and I'm having a lot of difficulty in understanding how this could even work. Astoria needs even headways during rush hours because Ditmars Blvd. doesn't have a yard, only a two track terminal. The (N) / (Q) generally work well together in the morning rush but there are a lot of issues with trains bunching up together in the evening rush. Ditmars-bound trains start inching around 5 PM after the Broadway station because off the ridiculous terminal congestion. A major cause of this is that the (N) and (Q) both start their long routes in Coney Island, and neither line is able to run on schedule by the time they arrive in Astoria.

 

People in Astoria had better service pre-2010 with the (W), and most of us are excited to see it come back. The (W) will even out spacing and be less prone to delays because it short turns at Whitehall Street. Your plan will only exacerbate the current problem, not help it.

And to add to what you said, Peak Express Service on Astoria will not work especially since it was tried for a short period of time back when the (W) was first introduced and alot of riders were not very happy about it either.

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