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W train coming back this fall


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I think that in the long term, stations at 125th St and 138th St / 149th St all need to be built to fully take advantage of the 2nd Avenue capacity. 125th St is probably being built first because it's the cheaper option, it is a universal transfer point, and it can enable the upper Lexington Ave line to be shut down for Fastrak. Plus, the 125th St subway will have to be built to improve crosstown travel in Uptown.

Answered this over in the main 2nd Avenue Subway Discussion thread.

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And you know that because??

You'd be funneling 4-tracks into two tracks, bringing the maximum TPH down on the 4-track section so far down that it makes no sense.

 

Also, I do not think that a 125th Street Crosstown is anywhere near as important as replacing long gone Third Avenue Service, and providing long promised service in the East Bronx via Lafayette Avenue.

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Also, I do not think that a 125th Street Crosstown is anywhere near as important as replacing long gone Third Avenue Service, and providing long promised service in the East Bronx via Lafayette Avenue.

I disagree.  Harlem is seeing quite a bit of gentrification, which I expect to continue to increase.  The East Bronx is already getting ferry service, and the areas that don't have readily access to the subway like it just the way that it is (i.e. Throggs Neck, Country Club, etc.).  Throggs Neck would much rather ferry service than subway service.  Parts of Throggs Neck is already going to crap because of the insane amount of over building as it is and Section 8 housing.  You put a subway there and that neighborhood is done.  All of the good areas of the Bronx DON'T have a subway or have one outside of the main area.

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I disagree.  Harlem is seeing quite a bit of gentrification, which I expect to continue to increase.  The East Bronx is already getting ferry service, and the areas that don't have readily access to the subway like it just the way that it is (i.e. Throggs Neck, Country Club, etc.).  Throggs Neck would much rather ferry service than subway service.  Parts of Throggs Neck is already going to crap because of the insane amount of over building as it is and Section 8 housing.  You put a subway there and that neighborhood is done.  All of the good areas of the Bronx DON'T have a subway or have one outside of the main area.

Ferry service is not enough. A subway increases accessibility to the entirety of the city not just sections along water (this is why I think the mayor's proposal will be a big flop). You simply cannot make a niche service (ferry or express bus) into a service used by the masses (the subway or a local bus).

 

This is the same reason why you can't just tell (7) or (R) train riders to take the express bus since the train service is so bad.The express bus is a niche service. It is only an option if your are going from an outer point on the route to Manhattan at certain times of the day. Except subway riders aren't all going to Manhattan in the morning and home in the afternoon. I can take that (R) train at 8 at night and I know that a train will come at Bay Ridge Av and take me where I'm going. At that time there are no X27s plus I wasn't going to Manhattan.

 

When proposing a service, the planner must take all situations into account. Things such as socioeconomic status, destination and time of use. Just because an express bus or ferry may help you doesn't mean that it is the best for everybody and there is no way that you can just tell people to make do. You have to accept the fact that people do things differently and have different needs. That is a fact that will never change even if you want it too.

 

With this in mind, a subway in the Southeast Bronx is a virtual requirement.

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Ferry service is not enough. A subway increases accessibility to the entirety of the city not just sections along water (this is why I think the mayor's proposal will be a big flop). You simply cannot make a niche service (ferry or express bus) into a service used by the masses (the subway or a local bus).

 

This is the same reason why you can't just tell (7) or (R) train riders to take the express bus since the train service is so bad.The express bus is a niche service. It is only an option if your are going from an outer point on the route to Manhattan at certain times of the day. Except subway riders aren't all going to Manhattan in the morning and home in the afternoon. I can take that (R) train at 8 at night and I know that a train will come at Bay Ridge Av and take me where I'm going. At that time there are no X27s plus I wasn't going to Manhattan.

 

When proposing a service, the planner must take all situations into account. Things such as socioeconomic status, destination and time of use. Just because an express bus or ferry may help you doesn't mean that it is the best for everybody and there is no way that you can just tell people to make do. You have to accept the fact that people do things differently and have different needs. That is a fact that will never change even if you want it too.

 

With this in mind, a subway in the Southeast Bronx is a virtual requirement.

Throggs Neck overall is quite suburban and the people living there like it that way.  You put subway there and that entire area would change considerably.  As has been stated many times, some areas of the city don't have subway service and like it just like that.  It allows the area to remain nice and not become overpopulated.  Staten Island is a perfect example of what happens when you overbuild and don't have the proper infrastructure to support a mass influx of people.

 

Your suggestion is like suggesting that a subway be placed in Country Club. LOL

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Throggs Neck overall is quite suburban and the people living there like it that way.  You put subway there and that entire area would change considerably.  As has been stated many times, some areas of the city don't have subway service and like it just like that.  It allows the area to remain nice and not become overpopulated.  Staten Island is a perfect example of what happens when you overbuild and don't have the proper infrastructure to support a mass influx of people.

 

Your suggestion is like suggesting that a subway be placed in Country Club. LOL

I'm not talking about Throggs Neck LOL and I sure as hell ain't taking about Country Club

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I don't really know the Bronx but I think its called Soundview or Unionport.

Well both areas are VERY poor and would require a massive amount of money to get a subway in there.  I think most of the people that will be using the ferry will be the folks down in Shorehaven anyway which is more suburban and solid middle class.

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Well both areas are VERY poor and would require a massive amount of money to get a subway in there.  I think most of the people that will be using the ferry will be the folks down in Shorehaven anyway which is more suburban and solid middle class.

 

ferries aren't quick and they won't provide free transfers to the subway. I would have a branch of the Second Avenue Subway run via 163rd Street and Lafayette Avenue to Throggs Neck.

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ferries aren't quick and they won't provide free transfers to the subway. I would have a branch of the Second Avenue Subway run via 163rd Street and Lafayette Avenue to Throggs Neck.

The plan is for those ferries to cost roughly about what a subway ride would cost and these would be fast ferries.  I saw the presentation, and the commute time is quite impressive, given the stops that it makes and where it will stop.  For what it's worth, the subways these days aren't that fast either.  It took me almost 40 minutes yesterday to go from 42nd to 125th street on the so called "express"  (4) train.  Pathetic.  We basically went at the same speed as the local  (6) train.  The only difference is we didn't make stops to pick up passengers.  Metro-North does the same trip in 10 minutes...

 

Oh and lol @ using Lafayette Avenue... Clearing just looking at a map...

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The plan is for those ferries to cost roughly about what a subway ride would cost and these would be fast ferries.  I saw the presentation, and the commute time is quite impressive, given the stops that it makes and where it will stop.  For what it's worth, the subways these days aren't that fast either.  It took me almost 40 minutes yesterday to go from 42nd to 125th street on the so called "express"  (4) train.  Pathetic.  We basically went at the same speed as the local  (6) train.  The only difference is we didn't make stops to pick up passengers.  Metro-North does the same trip in 10 minutes...

 

Oh and lol @ using Lafayette Avenue... Clearing just looking at a map...

 

what would you suggest? Using the Bruckner?

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I think that in the long term, stations at 125th St and 138th St / 149th St all need to be built to fully take advantage of the 2nd Avenue capacity. 125th St is probably being built first because it's the cheaper option, it is a universal transfer point, and it can enable the upper Lexington Ave line to be shut down for Fastrak. Plus, the 125th St subway will have to be built to improve crosstown travel in Uptown.

Those are all true points about the 125th St/Lex station, but I just think going to 149th would be able to siphon more Bronx riders off the Lex lines by being able to provide better transfers. I'm wondering how the transfer stairways and passageways would be arranged at 125th to allow for easy transfers between the (Q)(T) and (4)(5)(6), especially to the existing uptown (4)(5)(6) platform. If they do want to take the (Q) or (T) across 125th, they'll have to dig deep to clear both platform levels of the existing (4)(5)(6) station adding to the cost to tunnel there.
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what would you suggest? Using the Bruckner?

That would make some sense, but there's no way to address the large areas of the East Bronx that don't have a subway.  You would still need the express buses in those areas, as some folks would not want a subway in their area.  Most of the East Bronx is quite suburban and that has to be taken into consideration when talking about extending subways there.  You'd better believe that there would be opposition.  Just imagine the subway being extended into parts of Northeast Queens or having a subway extended into Forest Hills Gardens...  The thing that makes the most sense in those areas is having MNRR and the areas that will get it would likely prefer that over the subway (i.e. Morris Park, another suburban area in the Bronx).  A lot of the areas not near a subway are not necessarily heavily dense in the Bronx. There are mainly houses. Of course there are apartment buildings, but they were created more so around being suburban areas, thus more spread out and more low density.  Back in the old days, some areas were built purposely around the idea of not having a subway, and thus not being accessible to the masses, and that's what kept them exclusive and less dense.

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I disagree.  Harlem is seeing quite a bit of gentrification, which I expect to continue to increase.  The East Bronx is already getting ferry service, and the areas that don't have readily access to the subway like it just the way that it is (i.e. Throggs Neck, Country Club, etc.).  Throggs Neck would much rather ferry service than subway service.  Parts of Throggs Neck is already going to crap because of the insane amount of over building as it is and Section 8 housing.  You put a subway there and that neighborhood is done.  All of the good areas of the Bronx DON'T have a subway or have one outside of the main area.

Gentrification means that those residents can afford to take other options. Harlem has magnificent transportation taking them downtown and they don't need more aside from a possible new west side line in the distant future. And "Good Areas"? I'm going to re-iterate a point made by Flushing Association member Frank E. Andrews regarding the Flushing Line extension to that area on January 28th, 1907. "Let us get away from the narrow minded view that an elevated line will bring all the bad people out here. This is a nice town we live in; we have good schools and churches and residences, but why should we build a wall around Flushing and keep the other people out?"

 

I use that quote because like you believe Throgs Neck to be opposed to change, so was Flushing. There is no overbuilding there, and I feel like you don't even know what that term means. If it's within the city limits, then densities can be higher. A town like Flushing, who has fought about where the line should go, how it should be built, and if it should even exist in the first place eventually (after 20 years) came together and we finally got the Flushing Line extension to Main Street. We will never know what the residences of that neighborhood will think unless we do a comprehensive review and hear the opinions from the very residents themselves.

 

Throggs Neck overall is quite suburban and the people living there like it that way.  You put subway there and that entire area would change considerably.  As has been stated many times, some areas of the city don't have subway service and like it just like that.  It allows the area to remain nice and not become overpopulated.  Staten Island is a perfect example of what happens when you overbuild and don't have the proper infrastructure to support a mass influx of people.

 

Your suggestion is like suggesting that a subway be placed in Country Club. LOL

You keep using the word suburban like areas within the corporate limits of this city can't change and grow. Of course it would change significantly. And I feel it would change for the better. Businesses over there could get more customers due to it being more accessible and the residences would have a new and more effective route to the other business districts of the city.

 

Staten Island is NOWHERE NEAR overbuilt and I think your elitist standards are clouding your vision. For decades, even during the era of the Dual Systems Contracts that borough has been asking for improved rapid transit facilities. What you consider to be "overbuilding" is exactly what the borough wanted. I've lived there. I know people that still do. The fact that it takes an hour and forty-five minutes to get from Graniteville to The Battery using the local bus and ferry is abysmal. For that same travel time, I can get from Coney Island to my moms house near the Bronx Zoo using the subway. And before you even let the words Express Bus to creep from your mouth, NOT EVERYONE HAS THE MONEY. 6.50, or whatever the fare is now is the equivalent for just under 3 fares using local bus and rapid transit. That's the days lunch. Staten Island NEEDS a subway. When will that ever come? Who knows. What I do know is we need to get rid of this capitalist mindset and start putting the needs of the common man first.

 

Well both areas are VERY poor and would require a massive amount of money to get a subway in there.  I think most of the people that will be using the ferry will be the folks down in Shorehaven anyway which is more suburban and solid middle class.

Massive amounts? Lafayette Avenue is a wide street that can easy accommodate a two-track subway and could be build with cut and cover because traffic could easily be diverted to the surrounding streets. Shoring up of buildings would only be needed at station locations. You need to start thinking with peoples needs first instead of thinking about the "economic status" of neighborhoods. Ferries are no match for subways as they cannot carry the capacity needed and they are subject to weather.

 

I swear, you're almost as bad as the tabloids.

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Gentrification means that those residents can afford to take other options. Harlem has magnificent transportation taking them downtown and they don't need more aside from a possible new west side line in the distant future. And "Good Areas"? I'm going to re-iterate a point made by Flushing Association member Frank E. Andrews regarding the Flushing Line extension to that area on January 28th, 1907. "Let us get away from the narrow minded view that an elevated line will bring all the bad people out here. This is a nice town we live in; we have good schools and churches and residences, but why should we build a wall around Flushing and keep the other people out?"

 

I use that quote because like you believe Throgs Neck to be opposed to change, so was Flushing. There is no overbuilding there, and I feel like you don't even know what that term means. If it's within the city limits, then densities can be higher. A town like Flushing, who has fought about where the line should go, how it should be built, and if it should even exist in the first place eventually (after 20 years) came together and we finally got the Flushing Line extension to Main Street. We will never know what the residences of that neighborhood will think unless we do a comprehensive review and hear the opinions from the very residents themselves.

 

You keep using the word suburban like areas within the corporate limits of this city can't change and grow. Of course it would change significantly. And I feel it would change for the better. Businesses over there could get more customers due to it being more accessible and the residences would have a new and more effective route to the other business districts of the city.

 

Staten Island is NOWHERE NEAR overbuilt and I think your elitist standards are clouding your vision. For decades, even during the era of the Dual Systems Contracts that borough has been asking for improved rapid transit facilities. What you consider to be "overbuilding" is exactly what the borough wanted. I've lived there. I know people that still do. The fact that it takes an hour and forty-five minutes to get from Graniteville to The Battery using the local bus and ferry is abysmal. For that same travel time, I can get from Coney Island to my moms house near the Bronx Zoo using the subway. And before you even let the words Express Bus to creep from your mouth, NOT EVERYONE HAS THE MONEY. 6.50, or whatever the fare is now is the equivalent for just under 3 fares using local bus and rapid transit. That's the days lunch. Staten Island NEEDS a subway. When will that ever come? Who knows. What I do know is we need to get rid of this capitalist mindset and start putting the needs of the common man first.

 

Massive amounts? Lafayette Avenue is a wide street that can easy accommodate a two-track subway and could be build with cut and cover because traffic could easily be diverted to the surrounding streets. Shoring up of buildings would only be needed at station locations. You need to start thinking with peoples needs first instead of thinking about the "economic status" of neighborhoods. Ferries are no match for subways as they cannot carry the capacity needed and they are subject to weather.

 

I swear, you're almost as bad as the tabloids.

1. Are you kidding me?  You think all of these buses stuck in traffic along 125th street is eh ok?  Please.

 

2. Some areas are built up and dense and some aren't and that's the beauty of our city.  Not everyone wants to live on top of each other like roaches.  If they wanted to, they could simply live in Manhattan, which is mainly dense.  While there are some people that move to far out areas and want subway access, there are plenty of people that move to those areas precisely because they DON'T have a subway and they like using their cars, Metro-North, express bus or what have you.  Those people exist throughout the city, in Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island and parts of the Bronx.  In fact if you look at most areas of the city without subways, most of them are MUCH better in terms of quality of life.  I very much enjoy not having a subway in my area and waking up to the birds chirping versus a rumbling subway every 10 minutes, and lots of other noise pollution.  

 

While most of the Bronx that had subway access burned back in the old days, the areas without subways for the most part remained in tact (i.e. Throggs Neck, Country Club, Woodlawn, etc.)

 

3.  lol... You don't think Staten Island is overbuilt... Please... The infrastructure has not kept up with the amount of building that has gone on there and no matter how wide they make the SIE it'll never be enough.  Yes, the poor folks that can't afford the express bus or the light rail link in NJ want a subway.  Those that are more inland generally prefer the express buses, or driving, and those people are indeed opposed to the subway.  The subway would make it MUCH more crowded and more urban.  

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Gentrification means that those residents can afford to take other options. Harlem has magnificent transportation taking them downtown and they don't need more aside from a possible new west side line in the distant future. And "Good Areas"? I'm going to re-iterate a point made by Flushing Association member Frank E. Andrews regarding the Flushing Line extension to that area on January 28th, 1907. "Let us get away from the narrow minded view that an elevated line will bring all the bad people out here. This is a nice town we live in; we have good schools and churches and residences, but why should we build a wall around Flushing and keep the other people out?"

 

I use that quote because like you believe Throgs Neck to be opposed to change, so was Flushing. There is no overbuilding there, and I feel like you don't even know what that term means. If it's within the city limits, then densities can be higher. A town like Flushing, who has fought about where the line should go, how it should be built, and if it should even exist in the first place eventually (after 20 years) came together and we finally got the Flushing Line extension to Main Street. We will never know what the residences of that neighborhood will think unless we do a comprehensive review and hear the opinions from the very residents themselves.

 

You keep using the word suburban like areas within the corporate limits of this city can't change and grow. Of course it would change significantly. And I feel it would change for the better. Businesses over there could get more customers due to it being more accessible and the residences would have a new and more effective route to the other business districts of the city.

 

Staten Island is NOWHERE NEAR overbuilt and I think your elitist standards are clouding your vision. For decades, even during the era of the Dual Systems Contracts that borough has been asking for improved rapid transit facilities. What you consider to be "overbuilding" is exactly what the borough wanted. I've lived there. I know people that still do. The fact that it takes an hour and forty-five minutes to get from Graniteville to The Battery using the local bus and ferry is abysmal. For that same travel time, I can get from Coney Island to my moms house near the Bronx Zoo using the subway. And before you even let the words Express Bus to creep from your mouth, NOT EVERYONE HAS THE MONEY. 6.50, or whatever the fare is now is the equivalent for just under 3 fares using local bus and rapid transit. That's the days lunch. Staten Island NEEDS a subway. When will that ever come? Who knows. What I do know is we need to get rid of this capitalist mindset and start putting the needs of the common man first.

 

Massive amounts? Lafayette Avenue is a wide street that can easy accommodate a two-track subway and could be build with cut and cover because traffic could easily be diverted to the surrounding streets. Shoring up of buildings would only be needed at station locations. You need to start thinking with peoples needs first instead of thinking about the "economic status" of neighborhoods. Ferries are no match for subways as they cannot carry the capacity needed and they are subject to weather.

 

I swear, you're almost as bad as the tabloids.

word

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2. Some areas are built up and dense and some aren't and that's the beauty of our city.  Not everyone wants to live on top of each other like roaches.  If they wanted to, they could simply live in Manhattan, which is mainly dense.  While there are some people that move to far out areas and want subway access, there are plenty of people that move to those areas precisely because they DON'T have a subway and they like using their cars, Metro-North, express bus or what have you.  Those people exist throughout the city, in Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island and parts of the Bronx.  In fact if you look at most areas of the city without subways, most of them are MUCH better in terms of quality of life.  I very much enjoy not having a subway in my area and waking up to the birds chirping versus a rumbling subway every 10 minutes, and lots of other noise pollution.  

 

While most of the Bronx that had subway access burned back in the old days, the areas without subways for the most part remained in tact (i.e. Throggs Neck, Country Club, Woodlawn, etc.)

 

But how do you know that there are people who move to areas without subway just because they don't want subway service. Are you actually asking EVERYONE who live in those areas about their opinion? I get that you're opposed to subway in "suburban" neighborhoods in the city but not everyone shares the same opinion as you. There might be people in those areas that want subway service to make commuting a lot easier. Also subway doesn't need to be elevated. You can run underground subway to Throggs Neck or Northeast Queens and it won't "destroy" the neighborhood. If they don't want to use the subway than they will continue to use whatever form of transportation they normally use.

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But how do you know that there are people who move to areas without subway just because they don't want subway service. Are you actually asking EVERYONE who live in those areas about their opinion? I get that you're opposed to subway in "suburban" neighborhoods in the city but not everyone shares the same opinion as you. There might be people in those areas that want subway service to make commuting a lot easier. Also subway doesn't need to be elevated. You can run underground subway to Throggs Neck or Northeast Queens and it won't "destroy" the neighborhood. If they don't want to use the subway than they will continue to use whatever form of transportation they normally use.

Listen buddy... For the most part, people move to isolated areas of the city without subways because they want a more suburban lifestyle. What you're asking is like asking if people in Long Island want subways. The answer is yeah some probably do, but the majority don't. It isn't exactly rocket science. Most isolated areas in the city are not poor. They were built as more exclusive areas and have generally remained that way, so most of the people living there moved there for that reason. I mean seriously, someone that wants subway access is likely not going to move to a suburban area of the city like Douglaston and then complain about there being no subway.  The only people really living far out either live in isolated upper class areas or mainly poor areas or solid middle class areas where the residents like the small town feel. Go ask the folks in Woodlawn if they would want the (4) train extended there and see what they say. lol

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Listen buddy... For the most part, people move to isolated areas of the city without subways because they want a more suburban lifestyle. 

 

Have you tried actually buying property near a subway stop? It's usually very expensive to outright buy property near a subway stop. Even in a neighborhood like Jamaica, which is not particularly good, it's expensive. Housing in the subway-less outskirts, particularly in Queens or in Staten Island, tends to be cheaper either outright or per sq ft, if it's not McMansions.

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Why haven't they considered ever extending the (W) to Brooklyn?

 

If ridership increases on the (R) through the Montague Street Tubes and the Fourth Avenue Local both peak and off-peak, then fine. Otherwise, I don't see why they should.

 

Around the Horn and T to Dyre Avenue have stated otherwise (in the past and/or just recently on this site in some other related threads), though, since I don't live on the (R) and only use it occasionally. So of course, I probably don't know much about how ridership during the peak and off-peak or whatever goes on the (R) through the Montague Tubes as they do. But I am certain that the number of people traveling on the (R) between Manhattan and Brooklyn via the Montague Tubes is the lowest than all other East River crossings in the subway system for obvious reasons.

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