Potential QM- Relabeling, Q104, B36 Diversions, Q54 reroute in Jamaica and more

[Interested Rider]

Allan Rosen has started a thread which should be consolidated into this one on the proposed B/36 change.

He elaborates on what I have been saying about this  totally dumb idea of turning East 15th Street into a plaza that is both unnecessary and is a prime example of the big brotherism that is practiced by the City Department of Transportation and other agencies which is a feature of this so called genius mayor of our great city that was elected three years ago. What I am furious about the way that this hearing was planned with no notice to the community as we find out either the day before or the day it is being held or sometimes after the hearing is held which deprives members of the public like me of time to prepare comments and in many cases attend the hearing. Unless you are on the MTA's list, you are not notified  in a reasonable time frame so that if you want to mobilize supporters in time to appear at these hearings. 

The problem for me is that the hearing notice is for tomorrow and I have to do other things that are very important for the holidays start Friday night and I have to work Tuesday from 5 AM through 9 PM. I will be sending E-Mails to all my legislators that represent me today about this disaster and hopefully will see one tomorrow night so I can ask him about it.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

 Unless you are on the MTA's list, you are not notified  in a reasonable time frame so that if you want to mobilize supporters in time to appear at these hearings. 

The problem for me is that the hearing notice is for tomorrow and I have to do other things that are very important for the holidays start Friday night and I have to work Tuesday from 5 AM through 9 PM. I will be sending E-Mails to all my legislators that represent me today about this disaster and hopefully will see one tomorrow night so I can ask him about it.

 

Submit your testimony online.

[QM1to6Ave]

An operator posted how this issue could've been resolved simply by having the back of the bus scroll "3rd" or "6th", so operators know if they should bother servicing the stop (if the bus in front is running the exact same routing, they might as well save everybody some time and jump to the next stop)

That solution is much too simple for the brilliant minds at the MTA lol. I can see this change actually confusing riders, I'm getting ready to hear " what in the world is a QM35837??" at the stops

[Around the Horn]

An operator posted how this issue could've been resolved simply by having the back of the bus scroll "3rd" or "6th", so operators know if they should bother servicing the stop (if the bus in front is running the exact same routing, they might as well save everybody some time and jump to the next stop)

Only the Prevosts can scroll their signs. The MTAB MCI's are unable to do this...

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

So how much money and time is going to be wasted on these ridiculous QM renames to reprint all the signs and schedules, install them, add in new codes, advertise changes, insert changes to Bustime, etc??? Please, just leave the express service along already, MTA!

I feel that this is going to make it easier for the MTA to justify cutting some service or full lines outright (i.e; QM10 & QM12)

[Cait Sith]

Only the Prevosts can scroll their signs. The MTAB MCI's are unable to do this...

 

What he means is like how the +Select or Limited signs shows up at the rear. 

 

 

So how much money and time is going to be wasted on these ridiculous QM renames to reprint all the signs and schedules, install them, add in new codes, advertise changes, insert changes to Bustime, etc??? Please, just leave the express service along already, MTA!

 

The crazy thing about that is, this whole thing isn't costing them much at all. 

[B35 via Church]

I feel that this is going to make it easier for the MTA to justify cutting some service or full lines outright (i.e; QM10 & QM12)

I've been saying that, ever since they designated new route numbers for the varying Union Tpke. expresses....

It makes it easier to analyze data (thus feasibly determining which route and/or amt. of service should get das boot, and which should remain)....

[BrooklynBus]

The B/36 change is a throwback to the original route that it followed when the Southwest Brooklyn Bus Changes occurred in November 1978 and at that time it did not work and the route was changed six months later to operate via East 17th Street into Sheepshead Bay Road, East 15th Street and back to Avenue Z toward Coney Island and Sheepshead Bay Road, East 15th Street and back on Avenue Z toward Nostrand Avenue as the geniuses that implemented the straight Avenue Z route created a new industry where private cars and taxicabs virtually took over the route toward Avenue U which virtually destroyed the entire route. It took many years for the B/36 to come back and for the cars to finally disappear. It took almost a generation for service levels and passenger loads to improve from this disaster.

Now again some paper pusher who knows nothing about the Sheepshead Bay area has found another genius who knows nothing about transit history to implement this idea that should have never seen the light of day. What I think happened is that this change is in line with our illustrious mayor's vision zero as a couple of months ago, a pedestrian was killed at East 17th Street and Avenue Z and the cries from those geniuses panicked the MTA into coming up with this piece of garbage without thinking of the passengers that ride the bus. So we are back to square one with the private cars coming back and dropping the passengers off at the station and the bus service going down the tubes because someone has a vision of something that can never happen in the real world but should be forced upon the rest of us who will ultimately pay the price.

 

My recollection is that in 1978, the B36 operated straight on Avenue Z only for three days, not for six months. It was supposed to loop down to the station which was our (Department of City Planning's) suggested routing. It went straight because someone at the MTA just made a mistake and quickly fixed it when I informed them of the error. They wanted the B36 to use East 16th. I told them that the turn was much easier if they used 17th. So they changed it without any arguments. When I made the suggestion, all that the person in charge said to his subordinate was "write that down." And it was done.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

QM Relabeling (Page 132-144)

3 Avenue service for all QM's to be relabeled as follows:

QM31- Fresh Meadows to East Midtown

QM32- Bayside to East Midtown

QM34- Glendale to East Midtown

QM35- Glen Oaks to East Midtown

QM36- Lake Success to East Midtown

QM40- Rego Park to East Midtown

QM42- Forest Hills to East Midtown

QM44- Electchester to East Midtown

 

I would have gone with a single number for the Queens part of each route and letter suffixes for East Side and Downtown variants. For example...

 

QM1   Fresh Meadows to 6th Avenue

QM1A Fresh Meadows to 3rd Avenue

QM1B Fresh Meadows to Wall Street (replaces QM7)

 

QM2   Bay Terrace/Whitestone to 6th Avenue

QM2A Bay Terrace/Whitestone  to 3rd Avenue

 

QM4   Electchester to 6th Avenue

QM4A Electchester to 3rd Avenue

 

QM5   Glen Oaks to 6th Avenue

QM5A Glen Oaks to 3rd Avenue

QM5B Glen Oaks to Wall Street (replaces QM8)

 

QM6   North Shore Towers to 6th Avenue

QM6A North Shore Towers to 3rd Avenue

 

QM20   Bay Terrace/Clearview to 6th Avenue

QM20A Bay Terrace/Clearview to 3rd Avenue

 

QM24   Glendale to 6th Avenue

QM24A Glendale to 3rd Avenue

QM24B Glendale to Wall Street (replaces QM25)

 

This would work especially well along Union Turnpike, where people would simply wait for any "A" trip for East Side service or any "B" trip for Lower Manhattan.

[B35 via Church]

.....as for the x17a & the x22a that already exists?

[TransitJusticeForAll]

Ok. So far, so good. Just can't wait to see artics along Brewer Blvd.

[QM1to6Ave]

 

 

The crazy thing about that is, this whole thing isn't costing them much at all. 

 

 

Really?? How is that possible? Unless the cost is shifted to DOT to replace the signs? 

[Cait Sith]

Really?? How is that possible? Unless the cost is shifted to DOT to replace the signs?

The relabeling altogether is cost-neutral. The sign replacements is rather cheap in that regard too lol.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[QM1to6Ave]

The relabeling altogether is cost-neutral. The sign replacements is rather cheap in that regard too lol.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

Ha, well that's good to know! I still think they should have left well enough alone with the third ave changes, but it is good to know it won't cost much, 

[Interested Rider]

Mr. Rosen, I think that you are mistaken in the fact that the B/36 bus toward Avenue U continued on Avenue Z for six months instead of making the turn into Sheepshead Bay Road and then East 15th Street and back to Avenue Z. As far your reference to the East 16th Street routing, that was the original routing prior to the route change as the bus continued down Sheepshead Bay Road as the route at that time ran on Neptune Avenue. The East 17th Street routing (like the Sheepshead Bay Road routing)did not begin until April 1979 and it did not come from the Department of City Planning but from the local leaders in the community who had to endure the trek to Avenue Z in all sorts of weather. It was also the reason for the exponential explosion of the use of taxicabs and private cars from the Nostrand Avenue area that it took well over 20 years for the B/36 to recover. The reason that I remember it is I have been riding the B/36 route on a fairly regular basis since November 1977.

That said, I have already started to voice my objections to the rerouting of the B/36 to my local elected officials and referred them to your comments listed on this website. I have made reference to the comments that you are presenting at the meeting and mention your name as the presenter in my writings.

[checkmatechamp13]

Only the Prevosts can scroll their signs. The MTAB MCI's are unable to do this...

 

I guess try to make sure those QM lines primarily run Prevosts (**shrugs**). Especially the Union Turnpike lines, since those run the most frequently, and therefore have the most opportunities for buses to arrive at the same time (especially with the frequent Q46 thrown into the mix)

 

As for the BusTime issue, just program it so that the "via 3rd" and "via 6th" buses are two separate routes. So if you're standing at (random stop), 73rd Avenue & 218th Street, it'll show the next buses for the Q88, QM5 via 3rd, QM5 via 6th, and QM8. 

[DetSMART45]

You guys are as bad as the MTA "geniuses" running things.

 

The "merger" is going to happen, so why not simply designate ALL Express Bus routes as "X"?  Block them all -- 10/20 Staten Island, 30/40 Brooklyn, 50/60 Bronx, 70/80 Queens.  If you're going to change route designations, then get it over with, and get riders ready to associate things Express Bus as "X" designations NOW via a plan -- just like everyone knows 'M' means Manhattan, 'Q' means Queens, etc.  It really is NOT that hard.

 

Plus, at the same time, start examining all of the routes for consolidations/simplifications.

 

Now that I've got some of your heads ready to explode, I'll sit back and watch.

[Threxx]

You guys are as bad as the MTA "geniuses" running things.

 

The "merger" is going to happen, so why not simply designate ALL Express Bus routes as "X"?  Block them all -- 10/20 Staten Island, 30/40 Brooklyn, 50/60 Bronx, 70/80 Queens.  If you're going to change route designations, then get it over with, and get riders ready to associate things Express Bus as "X" designations NOW via a plan -- just like everyone knows 'M' means Manhattan, 'Q' means Queens, etc.  It really is NOT that hard.

 

Plus, at the same time, start examining all of the routes for consolidations/simplifications.

 

Now that I've got some of your heads ready to explode, I'll sit back and watch.

 

I feel like it makes far more sense to go the other way and designate all express bus routes as [borough]M. Your designation essentially integrates a second scheme based on boroughs, while MTA Bus has been using the really straightforward double borough designation for years. The route runs from Brooklyn to Manhattan, so "BM". Very simple logic.

 

Or perhaps... maybe there isn't a need for a sweeping redesignation at all just because of the internal merger of MTA Bus and NYCT Bus?

[DetSMART45]

I feel like it makes far more sense to go the other way and designate all express bus routes as [borough]M. Your designation essentially integrates a second scheme based on boroughs, while MTA Bus has been using the really straightforward double borough designation for years. The route runs from Brooklyn to Manhattan, so "BM". Very simple logic.

 

Or perhaps... maybe there isn't a need for a sweeping redesignation at all just because of the internal merger of MTA Bus and NYCT Bus?

Uh, no.

 

First, the "X" designation is used for NYCT Express Buses, the borough system by MTA Bus because of previous gobbledygook.  Quite frankly, they *could* have been using "X" designations once MTA took over MTA Bus operations (i.e. the various other carriers), but they decided not to do that.  HAD they done that, this silly crap wouldn't even be up for consideration.

 

What you're essentially saying is that ONLY Staten Islanders can figure out which Express Bus goes their way, and all the others NEED those extra characters to tell them their bus is approaching the stop (simplifying for NYCT Brooklyn/Queens routes--since the vast majority of X routes are SI).

 

Why not take the opportunity to acquaint the riding public with the merger of the bus companies, and to streamline the system of Express Bus to be similar to what's already in place with Local?

 

Leave the borough designations to Local, and X to Express.

[Threxx]

Uh, no.

 

First, the "X" designation is used for NYCT Express Buses, the borough system by MTA Bus because of previous gobbledygook.  Quite frankly, they *could* have been using "X" designations once MTA took over MTA Bus operations (i.e. the various other carriers), but they decided not to do that.  HAD they done that, this silly crap wouldn't even be up for consideration.

 

What you're essentially saying is that ONLY Staten Islanders can figure out which Express Bus goes their way, and all the others NEED those extra characters to tell them their bus is approaching the stop (simplifying for NYCT Brooklyn/Queens routes--since the vast majority of X routes are SI).

 

Why not take the opportunity to acquaint the riding public with the merger of the bus companies, and to streamline the system of Express Bus to be similar to what's already in place with Local?

 

Leave the borough designations to Local, and X to Express.

 

I'm not disputing why we have the separate designations, frankly it's rather irrelevant why we have them. We have them so we have to deal with them.

 

People are used to what they know. Look at how people got confused when they renamed Broadway-Nassau on the to Fulton Street, despite all of the other stations in the complex being named "Fulton Street" for over a century. Adopting the borough designation to all routes would mean that the numbering on the Staten Island express buses could actually remain the same, only requiring a change from "X" to "SM".

 

Sure, you can distribute material and "educate" the public but how wide reaching would that be. People will still be confused when their BM2 is suddenly the X34 or something ridiculous.

 

AFAIK there are more [borough]M routes than "X" routes regardless, so what change do you think would have the smaller impact on the system and affect the least amount of riders?

[Hound]

Since this thread turned into the short turn thread I propose a short turn somewhere on Queens Blvd for the Q60 (maybe somewhere in LIC).

They sometimes have short-turns on the Q60 to Sunnyside-47th St.

[checkmatechamp13]

AFAIK there are more [borough]M routes than "X" routes regardless, so what change do you think would have the smaller impact on the system and affect the least amount of riders?

 

To be fair, Staten Island has the most express riders out of every borough (I think it was 55% or 81% or something like that). The X27/28 are also fairly busy. I don't feel like doing the math, but I think there's more riders using "X" routes than [borough]M routes, even though there's more [borough]M routes in the system.

 

For myself, as long as the routes themselves are structured properly and have the right level of service, I personally don't care what they're called. As for the regular riders, I'd be inclined to just keep it as is. For the most part, MTA & NYCT routes serve different (outer borough) areas anyway. X buses serve SI, SW Brooklyn, and SE Queens, and the BM/QM/BxM buses cover everywhere else. Other than maybe a handful of X68 riders using the Union Turnpike lines interchangably, it'll barely affect any riders anyway.

[DetSMART45]

I'm not disputing why we have the separate designations, frankly it's rather irrelevant why we have them. We have them so we have to deal with them.

 

People are used to what they know. Look at how people got confused when they renamed Broadway-Nassau on the to Fulton Street, despite all of the other stations in the complex being named "Fulton Street" for over a century. Adopting the borough designation to all routes would mean that the numbering on the Staten Island express buses could actually remain the same, only requiring a change from "X" to "SM".

 

Sure, you can distribute material and "educate" the public but how wide reaching would that be. People will still be confused when their BM2 is suddenly the X34 or something ridiculous.

 

AFAIK there are more [borough]M routes than "X" routes regardless, so what change do you think would have the smaller impact on the system and affect the least amount of riders?

Something kinda like how people are utterly confused when the Q44 turns into the Q44 SBS, and they have to prepay all of a sudden?

 

Yeah, you sound like a MTA grad, selling customers short.  I can get how hard it is for people to actually read a destination sign instead of just jumping on the first bus approaching a stop, but after all, we're talking about people who are paying close to a $4.00 PREMIUM plus have a coach-style bus servicing them.

 

Customers who are purposely at an Express Bus stop which was turned from a BxM1 to an X51 would not have a problem discerning which bus was coming their way.

 

But then ....... it all comes down to THE PLAN, and educating the public citywide.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I feel like it makes far more sense to go the other way and designate all express bus routes as [borough]M. Your designation essentially integrates a second scheme based on boroughs, while MTA Bus has been using the really straightforward double borough designation for years. The route runs from Brooklyn to Manhattan, so "BM". Very simple logic.

 

Or perhaps... maybe there isn't a need for a sweeping redesignation at all just because of the internal merger of MTA Bus and NYCT Bus?

 

 

Uh, no.

 

First, the "X" designation is used for NYCT Express Buses, the borough system by MTA Bus because of previous gobbledygook.  Quite frankly, they *could* have been using "X" designations once MTA took over MTA Bus operations (i.e. the various other carriers), but they decided not to do that.  HAD they done that, this silly crap wouldn't even be up for consideration.

 

What you're essentially saying is that ONLY Staten Islanders can figure out which Express Bus goes their way, and all the others NEED those extra characters to tell them their bus is approaching the stop (simplifying for NYCT Brooklyn/Queens routes--since the vast majority of X routes are SI).

 

Why not take the opportunity to acquaint the riding public with the merger of the bus companies, and to streamline the system of Express Bus to be similar to what's already in place with Local?

 

Leave the borough designations to Local, and X to Express.

 

I'm not gonna fight over this, but it is much easier to incorporate the current non-SI "X" routes into the MTA Bus style designation rather than the opposite. There's only 7 of the "X" routes outside SI. I'd say to have all the current express buses outside SI to be turned into BC notations. They'll already fit anyways [the QM63, 64, 68 would fit with the new scheme of Midtown/Downtown taking slots from 1-29, and the 3 Avenue branches taking up 30 and up, although the MTA would have to relabel the X68 to fit the scheme (such as QM28 for 57 St, QM27 for the via 34 Street service, QM68 for the combo).The X27/37 can be relabeled BM7 (X27), and BM6 (X37), and the X28/38 can be relabled BM8 (X28) AND BM9 (X38)].

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now that I realized, why hasn't the MTA broken up the X68, or the BM's (the super express) with new designations, if they're doing all this to "make it easier for customers to catch their bus".

[Threxx]

Something kinda like how people are utterly confused when the Q44 turns into the Q44 SBS, and they have to prepay all of a sudden?

 

Yeah, you sound like a MTA grad, selling customers short.  I can get how hard it is for people to actually read a destination sign instead of just jumping on the first bus approaching a stop, but after all, we're talking about people who are paying close to a $4.00 PREMIUM plus have a coach-style bus servicing them.

 

Customers who are purposely at an Express Bus stop which was turned from a BxM1 to an X51 would not have a problem discerning which bus was coming their way.

 

But then ....... it all comes down to THE PLAN, and educating the public citywide.

 

With any public service, you have to account for the lowest common denominator.

 

People are stupid, and in these cases have to be treated as such. If you insist on implementing a uniform designation system, then you go with the option that would be the least intrusive, the least confusing, and would affect the least number of people.

 

I've also still yet to hear what exactly your plan would be for educating people across the city.

 

By the way, the express bus fare is $6.50.

 

Not that I'd expect someone from Michigan to know that of course. I'm not sure what allows you to engineer re-designations for bus routes in a system halfway across the country from you.