Potential QM- Relabeling, Q104, B36 Diversions, Q54 reroute in Jamaica and more

[Cait Sith]

You guys are as bad as the MTA "geniuses" running things.

 

The "merger" is going to happen, so why not simply designate ALL Express Bus routes as "X"?  Block them all -- 10/20 Staten Island, 30/40 Brooklyn, 50/60 Bronx, 70/80 Queens.  If you're going to change route designations, then get it over with, and get riders ready to associate things Express Bus as "X" designations NOW via a plan -- just like everyone knows 'M' means Manhattan, 'Q' means Queens, etc.  It really is NOT that hard.

 

Plus, at the same time, start examining all of the routes for consolidations/simplifications.

 

Now that I've got some of your heads ready to explode, I'll sit back and watch.

 

That's been in the works for years, unfortunately, union issues and things on the MTA side have plagued the delay of the merger.

 

If this merger happens, most, if not all of the express bus routes will get the X designation in some form along with both local and express routes being moved to other garages that are close by. There was a proposed list a long time ago about what route would get what designation. I had it somewhere, gotta find it.

 

 

Something kinda like how people are utterly confused when the Q44 turns into the Q44 SBS, and they have to prepay all of a sudden?

 

Yeah, you sound like a MTA grad, selling customers short.  I can get how hard it is for people to actually read a destination sign instead of just jumping on the first bus approaching a stop, but after all, we're talking about people who are paying close to a $4.00 PREMIUM plus have a coach-style bus servicing them.

 

Customers who are purposely at an Express Bus stop which was turned from a BxM1 to an X51 would not have a problem discerning which bus was coming their way.

 

But then ....... it all comes down to THE PLAN, and educating the public citywide.

 

Fare is $6.50

 

Uh, no.

 

First, the "X" designation is used for NYCT Express Buses, the borough system by MTA Bus because of previous gobbledygook.  Quite frankly, they *could* have been using "X" designations once MTA took over MTA Bus operations (i.e. the various other carriers), but they decided not to do that.  HAD they done that, this silly crap wouldn't even be up for consideration.

 

It's not just the TA not wanting to do it, union opposition played a big role at that. So they kept it to what passengers were used to. 

[Threxx]

That's been in the works for years, unfortunately, union issues and things on the MTA side have plagued the delay of the merger.

 

If this merger happens, most, if not all of the express bus routes will get the X designation in some form. There was a proposed list a long time ago about what route would get what designation. I had it somewhere, gotta find it.

Hm. Can't say I agree with that but it's just like the MTA to make a decision to confuse and confound people.

 

Then there's not going to be sufficient material explaining the changes to people.

[Cait Sith]

Hm. Can't say I agree with that but it's just like the MTA to make a decision to confuse and confound people.

 

Then there's not going to be sufficient material explaining the changes to people.

 

Neither do I, because the way it was originally planned, every express route was going to get relabeled. The number set would be borough-by-borough with a few exceptions to that rule.

 

And the way it was organized, the whole thing would confuse the hell out of anyone and everyone.

 

But of course, as per my previous post, things are subject to change. They might keep all the MTA Bus expresses by their original designations, which I can see in the long run.

[DetSMART45]

With any public service, you have to account for the lowest common denominator.

 

People are stupid, and in these cases have to be treated as such. If you insist on implementing a uniform designation system, then you go with the option that would be the least intrusive, the least confusing, and would affect the least number of people.

 

I've also still yet to hear what exactly your plan would be for educating people across the city.

 

By the way, the express bus fare is $6.50.

 

Not that I'd expect someone from Michigan to know that of course. I'm not sure what allows you to engineer re-designations for bus routes in a system halfway across the country from you.

Yeah, I see what you did there, with your attempt at being snarky by shrinking the text.  Juvenile.

 

People are only as stupid as you ASSUME they are.  BTW, I know Express Bus is $6.50, which is why I said CLOSE TO a $4.00 premium.

 

My plan for educating people across the city would be much more developed than anything the so-called "experts" at the MTA could devise.  My question to you is:  Should this little plan be adopted by the board (with the rubber-stamp at the ready before those pages dried coming from the printer/copier), how does the MTA plan to "educate" the public about these changes?  What, a yellow oversized Post-It at a bus stop, like pretty much all of their other executions?  Or a little banner that is non-existant if you use the mobile version of the website?

 

I'm not getting into a pissing contest over this.  There's a lot of simplification that could go on, and just MAYBE someone from outside the pretentious NYC area could offer a little common sense insight about it.  Coca-Cola doesn't just do focus groups within Atlanta where their HQ is, they do them nationwide.

 

Sometimes you have to get outside the forest to see the trees.

[QM1to6Ave]

Yeah, I see what you did there, with your attempt at being snarky by shrinking the text. Juvenile.

 

People are only as stupid as you ASSUME they are. BTW, I know Express Bus is $6.50, which is why I said CLOSE TO a $4.00 premium.

 

My plan for educating people across the city would be much more developed than anything the so-called "experts" at the MTA could devise. My question to you is: Should this little plan be adopted by the board (with the rubber-stamp at the ready before those pages dried coming from the printer/copier), how does the MTA plan to "educate" the public about these changes? What, a yellow oversized Post-It at a bus stop, like pretty much all of their other executions? Or a little banner that is non-existant if you use the mobile version of the website?

 

I'm not getting into a pissing contest over this. There's a lot of simplification that could go on, and just MAYBE someone from outside the pretentious NYC area could offer a little common sense insight about it. Coca-Cola doesn't just do focus groups within Atlanta where their HQ is, they do them nationwide.

 

Sometimes you have to get outside the forest to see the trees.

I completely agree that the MTA does a terrible job communicating bus changes. Those yellow signs are put up after a change is made and it is too late for people to learn them ahead of time.

[Fresh Pond]

I feel like it makes far more sense to go the other way and designate all express bus routes as [borough]M. Your designation essentially integrates a second scheme based on boroughs, while MTA Bus has been using the really straightforward double borough designation for years. The route runs from Brooklyn to Manhattan, so "BM". Very simple logic.

 

Or perhaps... maybe there isn't a need for a sweeping redesignation at all just because of the internal merger of MTA Bus and NYCT Bus?

MTA Bus just carried over the double borough prefixes from the 7 private lines, which they themselves were using since the fishbowls were still running around.

[Kamen Rider]

I had an odd though just now.

 

X for the all hours bi-drectional express routes

 

(B/Bx/Q)M for one way peak service only routes.

[Around the Horn]

I had an odd though just now.

 

X for the all hours bi-drectional express routes

 

(B/Bx/Q)M for one way peak service only routes.

Could work. I would prefer everything being X with services grouped though (like the X27/X37)

[Fresh Pond]

I had an odd though just now.

 

X for the all hours bi-drectional express routes

 

(B/Bx/Q)M for one way peak service only routes.

 

And of course the only downvote is from none other than VG8

[RailRunRob]

Could work. I would prefer everything being X with services grouped though (like the X27/X37)

Isn't everything going to towards (X) anyways.?  Ie BMX7= X44 

[Eric B]

Isn't everything going to towards (X) anyways.?  Ie BMX7= X44 

I had thought that with the takeover, everything would be converted to the DOT style (QM, BM, etc). That helps sort them out, by borough.

[DetSMART45]

The simplest answer to the 3rd Av / 6th Av confusion would be to switch the destination signs around, since everybody would be thrown into a frenzy of confusion if my idea were to be implemented (according to those here).

 

First sign: QM2  3rd Av   Second sign: QM2  East Midtown  55th St

First sign: QM2  6th Av   Second sign: QM2  Midtown 57th St

 

Actually, you really wouldn't need the second sign since all routes in question use the same routing within Manhattan.  But if you want additional differentiation, change it to:

 

First:  QM2  3rd Av   Second:  QM2  to 55th St

First:  QM2  6th Av   Second:  QM2  to 57th St

 

Which would allow one-line large characters.

 

I don't really think there is as much confusion to regular riders as the MTA is saying there is.  It's more a function of making it appear they're doing something, and spending money on an "improvement" by changing signage and printing schedules.

[JerBear]

Checked the proposed Q104 map, I feel that if they are gonna put the northbound at Northern Blvd and Broadway, might as well put the southbound route there too. Feels wrong to have the southbound use 49 St when they don't want the northbound using 48 or 50 street.

You confused me, so I had to go back and re-read and re-look at this. It's a problem with the maps that Transit uses. Can't we get some color drawings done in Illustrator or something? The bus currently goes northbound through Northern & Broadway, doing a weird left turn that isn't allowed for anybody but that bus. Now that I think about it, I wonder if DOT doesn’t like the bus making that turn and asked the MTA to change it for safety reasons. But yeah, currently, the southbound doesn’t go that way. So there is one northbound stop without the mirroring southbound stop. They're bringing them close together with this change and getting rid of the weird turn.

[JerBear]

I had an odd though just now.

 

X for the all hours bi-drectional express routes

 

(B/Bx/Q)M for one way peak service only routes.

My first instinct is to say "Yes!" because I can never remember which express buses are peak service versus more like regular service back and forth.

But whenever I do ride an express bus, everybody else seems to be a regular daily commuter. There aren't any impromptu or incidental trips on express buses. I don't go "Oh, I don't feel like using the local bus and the subway today, maybe I'll take the express bus", but I do occassionally decide to pay extra for the LIRR if I feel like it. So what I feel is that any use of express service has to be premeditated. That's why I don't even want to see the routes on the borough bus maps. If the service isn't there when I expect it should be there, don't lie to me by putting it on the map.

So, on second thought, I think they should make them all "X" routes because of the premeditation required.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

My first instinct is to say "Yes!" because I can never remember which express buses are peak service versus more like regular service back and forth.

But whenever I do ride an express bus, everybody else seems to be a regular daily commuter. There aren't any impromptu or incidental trips on express buses. I don't go "Oh, I don't feel like using the local bus and the subway today, maybe I'll take the express bus", but I do occassionally decide to pay extra for the LIRR if I feel like it. So what I feel is that any use of express service has to be premeditated. That's why I don't even want to see the routes on the borough bus maps. If the service isn't there when I expect it should be there, don't lie to me by putting it on the map.

So, on second thought, I think they should make them all "X" routes because of the premeditation required.

I think that's gonna cause more confusion than help. I would just keep things simple (but this is the MTA, so anything can happen). I believe the optimal solution would be to relabel all non-SI "X" routes and integrate them into the BM and QM designations. There's less of those compared to the amount of BM, QM, and BxM routes.

 

Some corridors have buses which are peak hours only and ones which run daily (Union Turnpike, Riverdale Avenue), some which have buses in both directions but running either daily or weekdays only (NE Queens Corridor). There's gonna be a clash of X and QM services on the same corridor. How about those buses which do not follow either "peak service only" or "daily". How will they be classified.

[QM1to6Ave]

These ideas seem to be getting more and more complicated. Is there any evidence that there is a problem with the current labels causing mass confusion? This seems like we are trying to solve a problem that is minimal at best.  

[checkmatechamp13]

My first instinct is to say "Yes!" because I can never remember which express buses are peak service versus more like regular service back and forth.

But whenever I do ride an express bus, everybody else seems to be a regular daily commuter. There aren't any impromptu or incidental trips on express buses. I don't go "Oh, I don't feel like using the local bus and the subway today, maybe I'll take the express bus", but I do occassionally decide to pay extra for the LIRR if I feel like it. So what I feel is that any use of express service has to be premeditated. That's why I don't even want to see the routes on the borough bus maps. If the service isn't there when I expect it should be there, don't lie to me by putting it on the map.

So, on second thought, I think they should make them all "X" routes because of the premeditation required.

 

By that logic, peak-only local services shouldn't be shown either (e.g. Bx20, Q26, etc)

 

At worse, maybe mark the rush hour routes with the same hollowed-out bullets as the BxM1/2 branch along Riverdale Avenue, to indicate that it's part-time. But then you'd have that shade of light green all over Staten Island and SE Queens, which would look horrible on the map.

 

Either way, having X routes and BM/QM/BxM routes along the same corridor is just confusing for no reason. 

 

I think that's gonna cause more confusion than help. I would just keep things simple (but this is the MTA, so anything can happen). I believe the optimal solution would be to relabel all non-SI "X" routes and integrate them into the BM and QM designations. There's less of those compared to the amount of BM, QM, and BxM routes.

 

Some corridors have buses which are peak hours only and ones which run daily (Union Turnpike, Riverdale Avenue), some which have buses in both directions but running either daily or weekdays only (NE Queens Corridor). There's gonna be a clash of X and QM services on the same corridor. How about those buses which do not follow either "peak service only" or "daily". How will they be classified.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you. 

 

And on top of that, the QM15 and the BM routes run Monday-Saturday. 

[FamousNYLover]

Something kinda like how people are utterly confused when the Q44 turns into the Q44 SBS, and they have to prepay all of a sudden?

 

Yeah, you sound like a MTA grad, selling customers short.  I can get how hard it is for people to actually read a destination sign instead of just jumping on the first bus approaching a stop, but after all, we're talking about people who are paying close to a $4.00 PREMIUM plus have a coach-style bus servicing them.

 

Customers who are purposely at an Express Bus stop which was turned from a BxM1 to an X51 would not have a problem discerning which bus was coming their way.

 

But then ....... it all comes down to THE PLAN, and educating the public citywide.

If BxM1 turns to X51, it will confuse former Flushing X51 bus riders and they'll think X51 Flushing-Midtown bus is restored.

"X" is also used for Academy Bus Routes X23/X24 bus between South Shore of Staten Island and Midtown via Goethals Bridge, NJ Turnpike and Lincoln Tunnel since it's partnership with

 

Bee-Line buses use BxM4C Westchester-Manhatan express  aka Route 28. City gave BxM4C number is Liberty Line Express/(MTA) had BxM4A/B, so city gave BxM4C even thought it doesn't serve Bronx.

 

Also Q44 SBS is not the only SBS passengers still get confuse with payment system like M15 SBS, M34/A SBS, M60 SBS, M86 SBS, and sometimes even Bx12 SBS routes.

[DetSMART45]

If BxM1 turns to X51, it will confuse former Flushing X51 bus riders and they'll think X51 Flushing-Midtown bus is restored.

"X" is also used for Academy Bus Routes X23/X24 bus between South Shore of Staten Island and Midtown via Goethals Bridge, NJ Turnpike and Lincoln Tunnel since it's partnership with

 

Bee-Line buses use BxM4C Westchester-Manhatan express  aka Route 28. City gave BxM4C number is Liberty Line Express/(MTA) had BxM4A/B, so city gave BxM4C even thought it doesn't serve Bronx.

 

Also Q44 SBS is not the only SBS passengers still get confuse with payment system like M15 SBS, M34/A SBS, M60 SBS, M86 SBS, and sometimes even Bx12 SBS routes.

You missed the entire point of my scheme.  Academy would still be under my numbering system, since 00/10/20 would be SI -- and, in fact, if it were up to me, Academy would be out and MTA would take over those routes, purely because it would be simplest for customers.

 

Bee-Line can do whatever they want.  If they want to name it the WMX, let them do it -- as long as they go along with where the city/MTA/DOT allows them to travel on the streets/make stops.

 

Express Bus customers are a select niche which should be expanded upon.  The current users are severely undersold by not only the MTA, but those on this forum (of which the vast majority are not users anyways, especially by the animosity expressed).  The MTA does not want to actively recruit new users to this premium service, which should be exploited before those who are able to move outside of NYC borders do so.

 

Simplifying things would be a major step toward that end, similar to the way Local buses are labeled by borough.  They already differentiate service by using commuter-style coaches, it shouldn't be that far of a stretch to putting an "X" on the destination signs of all of those.

[IAlam]

Simplifying things would be a major step toward that end, similar to the way Local buses are labeled by borough.  They already differentiate service by using commuter-style coaches, it shouldn't be that far of a stretch to putting an "X" on the destination signs of all of those.

 

But with your logic it would make more sense labeling all routes with (Q,B,BX)M so that each bus has their specified borough we could leave SI as X since al SI buses are already labeled with X  

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

If BxM1 turns to X51, it will confuse former Flushing X51 bus riders and they'll think X51 Flushing-Midtown bus is restored.

"X" is also used for Academy Bus Routes X23/X24 bus between South Shore of Staten Island and Midtown via Goethals Bridge, NJ Turnpike and Lincoln Tunnel since it's partnership with

 

Bee-Line buses use BxM4C Westchester-Manhatan express  aka Route 28. City gave BxM4C number is Liberty Line Express/(MTA) had BxM4A/B, so city gave BxM4C even thought it doesn't serve Bronx.

 

Also Q44 SBS is not the only SBS passengers still get confuse with payment system like M15 SBS, M34/A SBS, M60 SBS, M86 SBS, and sometimes even Bx12 SBS routes.

The X21 designation was restored back in 2013. It ran in the same general area as the former X21 which stopped running in the early 2000s. I really don't think people were confused that it was the old X21 Pleasant Plains service. I really don't see that happening, because if this was theoretically implemented, it would have been at least 8-9 years after the service was discontinued. Multiple local bus route designations were reused too (such as the B84, which does run along a portion of its former route, which was the B6 east of the ). Furthermore, I don't believe Westchester will change the name of the BxM4C either, since it is separate from the MTA-operated routes.  

 

(BTW, the BxM4C used to stop in the Bronx at 138 Street IIRC).

[B35 via Church]

I got a gorilla for sale for if whoever thinks the MTA is doing this renaming to ease confusion....

 

 

If BxM1 turns to X51, it will confuse former Flushing X51 bus riders and they'll think X51 Flushing-Midtown bus is restored.

I tend to doubt that.... The way I see it, Whosoever used to take the x51 probably have it so far back in their minds, that they forgot the thing existed.... That's how unimpactful that route was....

[Q43 Floral Park]

These ideas seem to be getting more and more complicated. Is there any evidence that there is a problem with the current labels causing mass confusion? This seems like we are trying to solve a problem that is minimal at best.  

 

IMO having 2 numbering systems for express routes isn't aesthetically appealing but I don't find that confusing as a daily rider.  It becomes confusing when it's translated to the map, the legend for local routes is far more complex than the express one and the key for the former only seems to apply to the latter in certain cases.  

 

Going off the queens map for starters: The weekend QM2 via Clearview goes from dark green where its overlapping the QM20, to the non-stop pattern between WPB and 20 av to translucent green between 14-20 aves. It makes it seem like the QM5 terminates at FM part time rather than looping through, they tell you the QM10/11 first/last stop to /from manhattan but don't give the first stops in Queens (I still don't get why the QM11 PM goes to Ascan first), and its the opposite on the QM12. 

 

Relabeling the 3rd Av routes is going to make the map messier/ more crowded... I'm not saying come up with a shape to fit every type of express route but they could at least use the pentagon for weekday only ones. 

[QM1to6Ave]

IMO having 2 numbering systems for express routes isn't aesthetically appealing but I don't find that confusing as a daily rider.  It becomes confusing when it's translated to the map, the legend for local routes is far more complex than the express one and the key for the former only seems to apply to the latter in certain cases.  

 

Going off the queens map for starters: The weekend QM2 via Clearview goes from dark green where its overlapping the QM20, to the non-stop pattern between WPB and 20 av to translucent green between 14-20 aves. It makes it seem like the QM5 terminates at FM part time rather than looping through, they tell you the QM10/11 first/last stop to /from manhattan but don't give the first stops in Queens (I still don't get why the QM11 PM goes to Ascan first), and its the opposite on the QM12. 

 

Relabeling the 3rd Av routes is going to make the map messier/ more crowded... I'm not saying come up with a shape to fit every type of express route but they could at least use the pentagon for weekday only ones.

 

The bus maps are a total mess, I agree with you on that. I don't even bother looking at that map, I only look at the individual schedules and/or the Bustime map.

[Q43LTD]

While we're at it, why don't we rename the BM downtown variants? The has renamed everything else