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NYC's overgrown population. Will the subway be able to handle it?


Javier

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We have to maximize what we have. Reactivate and covert ROW's rethinking the Subway and Regional Rail and how they work together fare's transfers, interoperability.. routes.. Infrastructure investment and building is like steering and turning a ship. It'll be a generation or two before MTA even get's close to catching up and that's if we start investing now. However there are ways to mitigate.

I don't know why there is such faith put in a subway system where even new stations fall into rapid decay.  

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I don't know why there is such faith put in a subway system where even new stations fall into rapid decay.  

 

Do you think SBS or trams that get stuck in traffic would be better? I agree that the stations need to get into better condition, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have any more lines built. 

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We have to maximize what we have. Reactivate and covert ROW's rethinking the Subway and Regional Rail and how they work together fare's transfers, interoperability.. routes.. Infrastructure investment and building is like steering and turning a ship. It'll be a generation or two before MTA even get's close to catching up and that's if we start investing now. However there are ways to mitigate.

 

I agree with what you are saying. We should first work with the existing ROWs. For example, the Atlantic Branch would be better served as an extension of the (E). The Port Washington Branch could be converted for subway use. The Rockaway Beach Branch could be used for rail, and the Triboro Rx using the Port Morris Branch could be used. A branch of the SAS could run along Park Avenue via the Metro North ROW, and tit could then run over or under Pelham Parkway.Transfers would really help and they would get rid of the annoyance of running to the LIRR ticket machine to get tickets right as the train is about to leave. Many new trips would be possible. 

 

I also think that some subway construction is required. For instance, an extension of the IND Queens Boulevard Line up Hillside Avenue to Springfield Boulevard. A two track Second Avenue Subway, and a Utica Avenue Line. A Fordham Road subway line, as well as an extension of the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line.

Some elevated construction would be needed, for instance an extension to LaGuardia, and an extension of the (6) to Co-Op City.

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Do you think SBS or trams that get stuck in traffic would be better? I agree that the stations need to get into better condition, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have any more lines built. 

We need to re-examine how subway stations are rehabbed and/or constructed in general.  The costs for them have become astronomical with little to show.  Our most recent stations are examples of that.  Go to the Fulton Street station where $1 billion was spent, and you can barely get the doors to open to get to your train, and all of the money spent supposedly to make the trains and connections more accessible... Well myself and many other people question that. Then of course there is the newest "jewel" Hudson Yards with the water problems and South Ferry... 

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I don't know why there is such faith put in a subway system where even new stations fall into rapid decay.  

I don't understand? Everything you use and everything great about this City and Country was made possible by progressive thinking people. Someone got sick of a trip to Harlem taking 3 hours in come's Rapid Transit why can't the subway be fixed and rethought. My faith is not in the subway but in progressive rational thinking people.

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We need to re-examine how subway stations are rehabbed and/or constructed in general.  The costs for them have become astronomical with little to show.  Our most recent stations are examples of that.  Go to the Fulton Street station where $1 billion was spent, and you can barely get the doors to open to get to your train, and all of the money spent supposedly to make the trains and connections more accessible... Well myself and many other people question that. Then of course there is the newest "jewel" Hudson Yards with the water problems and South Ferry... 

 

I agree that the Fulton Center is a complete waste of money. Hudson Yards and South Ferry should not have cost this much.

They should get rid of full mezzanines to cut costs.

 

I don't understand? Everything you use and everything great about this City and Country was made possible by progressive thinking people. Someone got sick of a trip to Harlem taking 3 hours in come's Rapid Transit why can't the subway be fixed and rethought. My faith is not in the subway but in progressive rational thinking people.

City Hall to Harlem 15 Minutes.

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We need to re-examine how subway stations are rehabbed and/or constructed in general.  The costs for them have become astronomical with little to show.  Our most recent stations are examples of that.  Go to the Fulton Street station where $1 billion was spent, and you can barely get the doors to open to get to your train, and all of the money spent supposedly to make the trains and connections more accessible... Well myself and many other people question that. Then of course there is the newest "jewel" Hudson Yards with the water problems and South Ferry... 

These are all man made issue's VG8. Accountability and oversight can fix these issues.. Im talking regional, Quality of life ,economic moving society forward problem solving here.. We have to progress figure it out and get it done.

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I agree with what you are saying. We should first work with the existing ROWs. For example, the Atlantic Branch would be better served as an extension of the (E). The Port Washington Branch could be converted for subway use. The Rockaway Beach Branch could be used for rail, and the Triboro Rx using the Port Morris Branch could be used. A branch of the SAS could run along Park Avenue via the Metro North ROW, and tit could then run over or under Pelham Parkway.Transfers would really help and they would get rid of the annoyance of running to the LIRR ticket machine to get tickets right as the train is about to leave. Many new trips would be possible. 

 

I also think that some subway construction is required. For instance, an extension of the IND Queens Boulevard Line up Hillside Avenue to Springfield Boulevard. A two track Second Avenue Subway, and a Utica Avenue Line. A Fordham Road subway line, as well as an extension of the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line.

Some elevated construction would be needed, for instance an extension to LaGuardia, and an extension of the (6) to Co-Op City.

I think Co-Op City will be best served with Metro-North.  Don't count on any subway being extended there.  Besides Co-Op City was formed on swamp land, and issues with sinking will only increase as times goes on.

 

I don't understand? Everything you use and everything great about this City and Country was made possible by progressive thinking people. Someone got sick of a trip to Harlem taking 3 hours in come's Rapid Transit why can't the subway be fixed and rethought. My faith is not in the subway but in progressive rational thinking people.

lol... Your Harlem example isn't a good one.  It takes me about 30 minutes sometimes on the subway to get from say Midtown to Harlem, versus 10 minutes on Metro-North.

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I think Co-Op City will be best served with Metro-North.  Don't count on any subway being extended there.  Besides Co-Op City was formed on swamp land, and issues with sinking will only increase as times goes on.

 

lol... Your Harlem example isn't a good one.  It takes me about 30 minutes sometimes on the subway to get from say Midtown to Harlem, versus 10 minutes on Metro-North.

 

Co-Op City is really densely populated and they aren't the richest people.

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I agree with what you are saying. We should first work with the existing ROWs. For example, the Atlantic Branch would be better served as an extension of the (E). The Port Washington Branch could be converted for subway use. The Rockaway Beach Branch could be used for rail, and the Triboro Rx using the Port Morris Branch could be used. A branch of the SAS could run along Park Avenue via the Metro North ROW, and tit could then run over or under Pelham Parkway.Transfers would really help and they would get rid of the annoyance of running to the LIRR ticket machine to get tickets right as the train is about to leave. Many new trips would be possible. 

 

I also think that some subway construction is required. For instance, an extension of the IND Queens Boulevard Line up Hillside Avenue to Springfield Boulevard. A two track Second Avenue Subway, and a Utica Avenue Line. A Fordham Road subway line, as well as an extension of the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line.

Some elevated construction would be needed, for instance an extension to LaGuardia, and an extension of the (6) to Co-Op City.

Right better using the infrastructure we have.. Triboro RX is low hanging fruit for fraction of a subway.  I mean it's getting crazy at some point I can see subway routes being dictated by switches and diversion points. Maybe in  another 15 - 20 years for example maybe there isn't a   (5) to Flatbush because of Rogers JCT and switching time.. These optimization might need to happen to move more people in the near future. 

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I think Co-Op City will be best served with Metro-North.  Don't count on any subway being extended there.  Besides Co-Op City was formed on swamp land, and issues with sinking will only increase as times goes on.

 

lol... Your Harlem example isn't a good one.  It takes me about 30 minutes sometimes on the subway to get from say Midtown to Harlem, versus 10 minutes on Metro-North.

Your missing the point but making a point as well..  Going from 15 mins in 1910 to 30 mins a 100 years later is a direct result of lack of progressive thinking. The generation that build the Subway did there part. Where the ones that are all talk. Remember we live in the New York of current is because of the subway say what you want it's doing a hell of job even 100 years later. 

metropolitantran00newy_0037.jp2&scale=4&

When was this from? 1960's? They could make a intermodal station in Co-Op next to or near the Metro-North station I suppose.

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Your missing the point but making a point as well..  Going from 15 mins in 1910 to 30 mins a 100 years later is a direct result of lack of progressive thinking. The generation that build the Subway did there part. Where the ones that are all talk. Remember we live in the New York of current is because of the subway say what you want it's doing a hell of job even 100 years later. 

 

When was this from? 1960's? They could make a intermodal station in Co-Op next to or near the Metro-North station I suppose.

 

https://archive.org/stream/metropolitantran00newy#page/n1/mode/2up

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Awesome stuff !! Thanks for this.

 

your welcome

 

This is when MTA was new had to prove their existence. I can't believe there here so many missed opportunities. 

That was before they had to realize the political situation in Albany.

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your welcome

 

That was before they had to realize the political situation in Albany.

So there was a plan to have the Second Ave line go to Gun Hill Road, And (D) to Burke Ave? See the 3rd rail never made it to Peekskill on the Hudson as well.. Two things I would look into.. I think I might have talked about it before. Is creating maybe a new division ( C Division) of the NYCT? Maybe a new company under the MTA? (City Rail)  and pull the surface routes these underused abandoned ROW's into it.. Like the RX and Rockaway branch and pull SIRT into this new division. Have it maybe partially under FRA and FTA rules.. Modified R179's/R211 may M7's with rapid style seating get it all interlinked into the fare structure.  

 

RX (Central Line) Routes could like this?

 

  • 4th Ave to LGA  (16.7 Miles)
  • 4th Ave to Jackson Heights   (14.6Miles)
  • 4th Ave to Co-Op City  (25 Miles)
  • LGA to Midwood 
  • Jackson Heights to Midwood 
  • LGA to JFK 
  • Jackson Heights to JFK
  • JFK Jackson Hts
  • JFK-Co-Op City

 

Stations along route

 

 

Bold depicts a terminal station)
*Short turns
** Substation
 
Central Line
 
(Harbor Yard)
 
  • 4th Ave  N,R  
**
  • Fort Hamilton Pkway    (1.08 Miles)
  • New Utrecht Ave  D,N   (0.5 Miles)
**
  • McDonald Ave  F     (1.12 Miles)
  • Coney Island Ave  Q (0.8 Miles)
**
  • Nostrand -Flatbush  2,5, B44*  (0.8 Miles)
  • Utica- Kings Hwy  B46  (1.13 Miles)
**
  • Ralph Ave              (0.480 Miles)
  • Remsen Ave          (0.411 Miles)
  • Rockaway Ave  (0.3 Miles)
**
  • Linden Blvd  L
  • Livonia Ave  3,L
**
  • Broadway  A,C,J,L,Z  - LIRR, Atlantic Line
  • Central- Wilson  L
 
Bklyn/Queens
 
**
 
  • Cooper -Cypress
  • Fresh Pound -Myrtle
(Fresh Pond yards and maintenance)
  • Metropolitan  M
**
  • Eliot Ave
  • Grand Ave
**
Split/Join with Rockaway Line via Main Line
 
  • Queens Blvd
  • Roosevelt -Broadway  7,E ,F,M,R*  
  • Northern Blvd   LGA Spur
**
FTA / FRA jurisdiction
 
Bronx /LGA Spur spit
 
  • 25th Ave
  • 82nd street
  • LGA 
 
Qns/Bronx ?
 
  • Hunts Point Ave   (6) ,Metro North
  • 174th Street
  • Parkchester    Metro North
  • Eastchester - Morris Park  Metro North
  • Pelham-Metro  Bx12 SBS
(Pelham Yard)
  • Co-op City  MetroNorth

 

 

Here's a fully reactivated Rockaway Line with Links to RX via LIRR main line and White Pot Jct?

 

(Bold depicts a terminal station)

 

*Short turns
 
** Substation
 
         Miles
  • (0)             Howard Beach -JFK   A,R
  • (1.5) 2m    Liberty Ave   (A)
**
(Whitepot Yard)
  • (2.14)1m  Atlantic Ave  LIRR (Atlantic Line)
  • (2.5) 1m   Jamaica Ave   J ,Z
**
  • (3.12) 1m  Myrtle- Forest Park
  • (3.82) 1m Metropolitan Ave
  • (4.18) 1m Yellowstone Blvd (R)
**
R splits to Manhattan via Queens Blvd
Joins LIRR main line.
  • (6.70) 4m  Queens Blvd
 
joins Central Line
  • (7.23) 1m  Roosevelt- Broadway 7,E,F,M,R *
  • (7.82)1m Northern Blvd  (Trains to Bronx)
**
  • (8.37) 25th Ave
  • (9.04) 82nd Street 
  • (9.89) LGA
 
23 mins
 
Just a thought.
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I think Co-Op City will be best served with Metro-North.  Don't count on any subway being extended there.  Besides Co-Op City was formed on swamp land, and issues with sinking will only increase as times goes on.

 

lol... Your Harlem example isn't a good one.  It takes me about 30 minutes sometimes on the subway to get from say Midtown to Harlem, versus 10 minutes on Metro-North.

Just keep running more buses to the (6)<6> since MNRR is better for reverse commutes to Westchester (which also has some cheaper alternatives 45/60/61/62) and Connecticut.

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We need to re-examine how subway stations are rehabbed and/or constructed in general.  The costs for them have become astronomical with little to show.  Our most recent stations are examples of that.  Go to the Fulton Street station where $1 billion was spent, and you can barely get the doors to open to get to your train, and all of the money spent supposedly to make the trains and connections more accessible... Well myself and many other people question that. Then of course there is the newest "jewel" Hudson Yards with the water problems and South Ferry... 

 

In general, the MTA has seemed to inherit the IND's penchant for large, full-mezzanine stations (which ends up blowing out the cost as opposed to say, a tube station in London that only has little pocket mezzanines for each entrance location).

 

(As far as barely opening the doors goes, that's probably an issue with air-conditioning; if there's a large temperature difference between the inside and outside, the air pressure difference is essentially going to shut the door. This is one of the reasons why revolving doors are so common in buildings with large, air-conditioned lobbies.)

 

I think Co-Op City will be best served with Metro-North.  Don't count on any subway being extended there.  Besides Co-Op City was formed on swamp land, and issues with sinking will only increase as times goes on.

 

lol... Your Harlem example isn't a good one.  It takes me about 30 minutes sometimes on the subway to get from say Midtown to Harlem, versus 10 minutes on Metro-North.

 

The issue with Co-op City is that past a certain point, it becomes super wasteful to make every bus serving the area loop around before trudging over to PBP. It would be best if there were a station in the rough vicinity of Bay Plaza to cut down on the amount of circuitous routing.

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The issue with Co-op City is that past a certain point, it becomes super wasteful to make every bus serving the area loop around before trudging over to PBP. It would be best if there were a station in the rough vicinity of Bay Plaza to cut down on the amount of circuitous routing.

Hmpf.... Let there be a subway station anywhere in Co-op City & you would see a very significant amount of bus service in Co-op just about vanish at the snap of a finger.... Say, 1 subway bus route running b/w PBP & Co-op (likely the infamous Bx12), 2 routes encircling co-op (likely the Bx30 CCW & the Bx28 CW), the Bx26 being a straight shot along Bartow to either section 5 or the fictional subway stop around Bay plz, and the BxM7 would likely remain as the lone express....

 

That would eliminate the Bx5 (weekends), Bx29, Q50, and the Bx23 from running b/w PBP & Co-op.....

I can imagine the roundtable discussions now from the suits......

 

 

 

with the damn

 

 

 

to follow it.

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The issue with Co-op City is that past a certain point, it becomes super wasteful to make every bus serving the area loop around before trudging over to PBP. It would be best if there were a station in the rough vicinity of Bay Plaza to cut down on the amount of circuitous routing.

The thing is those Co-Op City people want all of the buses to serve all of the sections, so I don't think they would favor that. They are incredibly entitled, that much I do know.

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The thing is those Co-Op City people want all of the buses to serve all of the sections, so I don't think they would favor that. They are incredibly entitled, that much I do know.

 

Right, and the terminus of the (6) at PBP enables that. Once a subway station becomes walking distance of a fair portion of Co-op City, that no longer becomes the case.

 

We can't always have what we want. I would like the City of New York to pay for my Uber rides, but I don't get that kind of entitlement because it's not absolutely necessary. For now, the bus setup is necessary because none of Co-op City can walk across a highway interchange to get to PBP.

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Right, and the terminus of the (6) at PBP enables that. Once a subway station becomes walking distance of a fair portion of Co-op City, that no longer becomes the case.

 

We can't always have what we want. I would like the City of New York to pay for my Uber rides, but I don't get that kind of entitlement because it's not absolutely necessary. For now, the bus setup is necessary because none of Co-op City can walk across a highway interchange to get to PBP.

The thing is when Co-Op City was being developed, the city promised the community good transportation, and that's one of the things that Co-Op likes to throw out there when the (MTA) considers service cuts.  Given the size of Co-Op City and their ability to mobilize and protest, getting any service cuts through would certainly not be easy.  Co-Op City also is mainly working class folks, so I'm sure they would cry that the (MTA) was discriminating against them, noting how many people need public transportation in the area, and they would be right.  It's certainly not an upper class area, and housing costs are quite cheap there.

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The thing is when Co-Op City was being developed, the city promised the community good transportation, and that's one of the things that Co-Op likes to throw out there when the (MTA) considers service cuts.  Given the size of Co-Op City and their ability to mobilize and protest, getting any service cuts through would certainly not be easy.  Co-Op City also is mainly working class folks, so I'm sure they would cry that the (MTA) was discriminating against them, noting how many people need public transportation in the area, and they would be right.  It's certainly not an upper class area, and housing costs are quite cheap there.

What does it not being a upper class area have to do with it? It's a still a very important constituency none the less along with other the other working class areas of the city.. These are the people and part of the population that keep's the City running both physically and economically. Giving that I agree with your other points.. It's the  (MTA)'s job to handle transportation and people should say something and voice there concerns if they feel that job isn't being done. 

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