Late night (R) train service extended

[checkmatechamp13]

Dyre-149 is possible though that would create the same problem as the .  Perhaps late nights the could run Dyre Avenue-86th Street since you do have a track switch there and make it so trains terminate on the downtown platform there (and late nights only have a special OOS transfer between the two platforms at 86th/Lex for the handful who would ride the to 86th and take an uptown or back to 96th or 103rd).   That could work.

 

They wouldn't run it to 86th. They would either run it to 42nd (where you have transfers to Queens and the West Side), or just keep it in The Bronx.

[Fresh Pond]

Dyre-149 is possible though that would create the same problem as the . Perhaps late nights the could run Dyre Avenue-86th Street since you do have a track switch there and make it so trains terminate on the downtown platform there (and late nights only have a special OOS transfer between the two platforms at 86th/Lex for the handful who would ride the to 86th and take an uptown or back to 96th or 103rd). That could work.

There wouldn't be no such problem.

 

With 2 trains running on 20 minute frequencies (a train every 10 minutes at most), one would hardly get in the way of the other.

 

I'm all for an extension of the to 149-Concourse. Obviously you'll need extra trains (I doubt OPTO will fly over there lol). trains will dump people off at 149, and sit on M track at 138-Concourse and wait to turn back around...completely out of the way of both and even trains.

[Wallyhorse]

There wouldn't be no such problem.

 

With 2 trains running on 20 minute frequencies (a train every 10 minutes at most), one would hardly get in the way of the other.

 

I'm all for an extension of the to 149-Concourse. Obviously you'll need extra trains (I doubt OPTO will fly over there lol). trains will dump people off at 149, and sit on M track at 138-Concourse and wait to turn back around...completely out of the way of both and even trains.

True, though 86th would be easier because you can use the downtown platform.

 

And the OOS transfer idea could be done anyway because there can also be an OOS transfer there between the Lexington Avenue line and the SAS at 86th/2nd (once the begins running there).  Very few people would use the transfer between platforms at 86th/Lex since most going to The Bronx can make that transfer at 125 but I suspect (especially rush hours overall and late nights from the if it terminated at 86th) you would have a decent number make the two-block walk to switch lines there.

[BreeddekalbL]

can someone connect the dots regarding running the 24/7 cause it was on deck before the great recession

[GreatOne2k]

There wouldn't be no such problem.

 

With 2 trains running on 20 minute frequencies (a train every 10 minutes at most), one would hardly get in the way of the other.

 

I'm all for an extension of the to 149-Concourse. Obviously you'll need extra trains (I doubt OPTO will fly over there lol). trains will dump people off at 149, and sit on M track at 138-Concourse and wait to turn back around...completely out of the way of both and even trains.

 

would have to be extended to Bowling Green (or Flatbush Avenue) until the starts running 20 minute headways, currently, the shuttle begins S/B while the is still on 12 minute headways.

[TheNewYorkElevated]

can someone connect the dots regarding running the 24/7 cause it was on deck before the great recession

Wait, there was a plan to run the 24/7? 

[Caelestor]

Wait, there was a plan to run the 24/7? 

 

IIRC there was a plan to do so to allow 10-minute headways on the Queens Blvd and Broadway lines. Presumably the would run over the bridge at all times if the did run 24/7.

 

Regarding the , the only effective late night extension would be to Grand Central, so that East Side riders would only have to make one transfer (125th St is not a viable terminal). Not certain that neighborhoods would want more frequent elevated service at night, or that the MTA would be willing to pay for the extension.

[Wallyhorse]

IIRC there was a plan to do so to allow 10-minute headways on the Queens Blvd and Broadway lines. Presumably the would run over the bridge at all times if the did run 24/7.

 

Regarding the , the only effective late night extension would be to Grand Central, so that East Side riders would only have to make one transfer (125th St is not a viable terminal). Not certain that neighborhoods would want more frequent elevated service at night, or that the MTA would be willing to pay for the extension.

If you're going to have the go to Grand Central, you might as well have it go to Brooklyn Bridge as the second Lexington local in the overnights while the goes express at all times in Manhattan.  

 

The reason I brought up 86th is because you have a switch there that does allow the to run on the express track there and terminate.  

[CenSin]

If you're going to have the go to Grand Central, you might as well have it go to Brooklyn Bridge as the second Lexington local in the overnights while the goes express at all times in Manhattan.  

 

The reason I brought up 86th is because you have a switch there that does allow the to run on the express track there and terminate.  

Why not just 149 Street–Grand Concourse? The major options are there: down the west side and down the east side. 86 Street does not offer any additional transfer opportunities besides the . The next major attraction is Grand Central which adds access to the , , , and . But at that point, it would just make sense to make the trip all the way to Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall for a substantial increase in options; the choices would amount to: , , , , , , , , , , , and . That is just a stone throw away from Bowling Green which would add a transfer to the . Beyond that, there are no additional transfer opportunities besides to the in Brooklyn. But again, what is the load from Dyre Avenue anyway? Is it so important that the full array of options must be offered at quadruple/pentuple/sextuple the expense?

 

I think 149 Street–Grand Concourse gives the rider 2 Manhattan options, which is decent enough. Other additions are just luxurious toppings.

[CenSin]

The extension of the to South Ferry–Whitehall Street gives many more options relative to the expense incurred. A mere 9-station extension offers additional transfers to the , , , , , , and . The would have to be extended 25 stations (to 14 Street–Union Square) to give a comparable assortment of options, but having no switch for turning back, the trains would have to be extended 30 stations to terminate at Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall which is more than half the full route!

[N6 Limited]

Given that most people using the and (or at least a significant portion of them) are doing it as part of a train+bus journey, making the local would be a terrible idea. At least one route has to run express to Jamaica.

Being that the and have been going local after 10PM for most of 2016, the can stay out of Queens evenings and weekends because it just adds to delays and frustration.

[Q43LTD]

If the went to Queens 24/7, I would have the and travel over the bridge. In addition the would go back to being express on Broadway

[Wallyhorse]

Why not just 149 Street–Grand Concourse? The major options are there: down the west side and down the east side. 86 Street does not offer any additional transfer opportunities besides the . The next major attraction is Grand Central which adds access to the , , , and . But at that point, it would just make sense to make the trip all the way to Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall for a substantial increase in options; the choices would amount to: , , , 7/D/E/D/J/L/N/Q/R. That is just a stone throw away from Bowling Green which would add a transfer to the . Beyond that, there are no additional transfer opportunities besides to the in Brooklyn. But again, what is the load from Dyre Avenue anyway? Is it so important that the full array of options must be offered at quadruple/pentuple/sextuple the expense?

 

I think 149 Street–Grand Concourse gives the rider 2 Manhattan options, which is decent enough. Other additions are just luxurious toppings.

Main reason I said 86th is because then the can use the express tracks (and it involves only opening the downtown side at 86th on the express level) and be able to terminate where it can switch tracks without any potential interference of other lines.  Plus you could be doing that with an OOS transfer between the Lex and SAS for those specifically looking for the along the SAS and it would only be three extra stops.  

 

I'm sure there would be a good number on the to 149 who would stay on the to 86th and switch there to the or and especially the if they just missed it at 125.

[CenSin]

Main reason I said 86th is because then the can use the express tracks (and it involves only opening the downtown side at 86th on the express level) and be able to terminate where it can switch tracks without any potential interference of other lines.

Let’s explore the costs–benefits relationship further…

 

extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse

Provides (relative to just turning at East 180 Street):

• 1 additional transfer option:
• Provides additional service at 9 additional stations along White Plains Road.

Costs (relative to just turning at East 180 Street):

• 9 additional stations
• Use of the center track at 138 Street–Grand Concourse
• Potential conflict with the in both directions by using the center track to turn; it has to merge first

extension to 86 Street

Provides (relative to an extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse):

• Provides additional service at 3 additional stations along Lexington Avenue.
• 1 additional transfers option: back to the Bronx
• Half the waiting time to transfer to trains heading downtown

Costs (relative to an extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse):

• Use of the center track at 138 Street–Grand Concourse
• 7 additional stations worth of trackage, 4 of which are skipped
• Use of the express tracks, which may be needed for work trains and maintenance (think of the track workers and efficiency)
• No transfer between the uptown and downtown platforms; helps nobody going to the Bronx until 125 Street

it can switch tracks without any potential interference of other lines.

No it can’t. It merges with the still. It’s no better than the extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse in this regard.

 

Plus you could be doing that with an OOS transfer between the Lex and SAS for those specifically looking for the along the SAS and it would only be three extra stops.

A transfer to the can’t be listed as a benefit. By the time a person walks to the station, they would have been better off waiting for the or to Lexington Avenue–59 Street or 14 Street–Union Square. The combined headways make an average 5-minute wait. It takes 5 minutes to walk over there along the surface and then an additional minute to descend. Keep in mind that the use case scenarios for this kind of transfer are limited since there are better (or equivalent) alternatives in all the cases:

• 96 Street to Lexington Avenue/63 Street: walk
• 5 Avenue/59 Street: walk
• 57 Street–7 Avenue to Broadway/28 Street: transfer to the and walk
• 28 Street and 23 Street: transfer to the or and walk
• 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the or
• Beyond 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the in-system

Unless the walk along 86 Street is somehow special; all the instances where I suggest to walk are the same distance as the walk from Lexington Avenue/86 Street to 2 Avenue/86 Street.

 

I'm sure there would be a good number on the to 149 who would stay on the to 86th and switch there to the or and especially the if they just missed it at 125.

I wouldn’t count on that. Track work happens during overnight hours. It’s going to be on the express tracks, local tracks, or both. In any case, the flagged zones are going to slow down trains. I wouldn’t count on an express train making promising gains against a local at that time.

So relative to the 9-station extension, the 16-station extension to 86 Street only provides service to an additional 3 stations, a transfer to the back to the Bronx, and half the waiting time to transfer to/from trains downtown.

 

The head-scratcher is why you draw the line at 86 Street as opposed to some more juicy choice like Grand Central–42 Street?? For 5 more stops (3 of which are skipped) on top of the extension to 86 Street, you get 3 more transfers.

• 9 stops, +1 transfer
• 16 stops, +2 transfers
• 21 stops, +5 transfers

You do the math.

[Wallyhorse]

Let’s explore the costs–benefits relationship further…

 

extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse

Provides (relative to just turning at East 180 Street):

• 1 additional transfer option:
• Provides additional service at 9 additional stations along White Plains Road.

Costs (relative to just turning at East 180 Street):

• 9 additional stations
• Use of the center track at 138 Street–Grand Concourse
• Potential conflict with the in both directions by using the center track to turn; it has to merge first

extension to 86 Street

Provides (relative to an extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse):

• Provides additional service at 3 additional stations along Lexington Avenue.
• 1 additional transfers option: back to the Bronx
• Half the waiting time to transfer to trains heading downtown

Costs (relative to an extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse):

• Use of the center track at 138 Street–Grand Concourse
• 7 additional stations, 4 of which are skipped
• Use of the express tracks, which may be needed for work trains and maintenance
• No transfer between the uptown and downtown platforms; helps nobody going to the Bronx until 125 Street

No it can’t. It merges with the still. It’s no better than the extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse in this regard.

 

A transfer to the can’t be listed as a benefit. By the time a person walks to the station, they would have been better off waiting for the or to Lexington Avenue–59 Street or 14 Street–Union Square. The combined headways make an average 5-minute wait. It takes 5 minutes to walk over there along the surface and then an additional minute to descend. Keep in mind that the use case scenarios for this kind of transfer are limited since there are better (or equivalent) alternatives in all the cases:

• 96 Street to Lexington Avenue/63 Street: walk
• 5 Avenue/59 Street: walk
• 57 Street–7 Avenue to Broadway/28 Street: transfer to the and walk
• 28 Street and 23 Street: transfer to the or and walk
• 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the or
• Beyond 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the in-system

Unless the walk along 86 Street is somehow special; all the instances where I suggest to walk are the same distance as the walk from Lexington Avenue/86 Street to 2 Avenue/86 Street.

 

I wouldn’t count on that. Track work happens during overnight hours. It’s going to be on the express tracks, local tracks, or both. In any case, the flagged zones are going to slow down trains. I wouldn’t count on an express train making promising gains against a local at that time.

So relative to the 9-station extension, the 16-station extension to 86 Street only provides service to an additional 3 stations, a transfer to the back to the Bronx, and half the waiting time to transfer to/from trains downtown.

 

The head-scratcher is why you draw the line at 86 Street as opposed to some more juicy choice like Grand Central–42 Street?? For 5 more stops (3 of which are skipped) on top of the extension to 86 Street, you get 3 more transfers.

• 9 stops, +1 transfer
• 16 stops, +2 transfers
• 21 stops, +5 transfers

You do the math.

 

I get where you're coming from on that.  86th was strictly because it was where it would not potentially be behind a and where it would have the express track all to itself.  Otherwise, 149 would be better, though 125 (where they would also be a transfer to the ) would also be doable looking at the track maps in the late night hours where the could come in on the uptown express track and unless the and have to run express between Grand Central and 125 would not interfere with those lines since both late nights come in on the local track going uptown I believe.

 

 

[CenSin]

I get where you're coming from on that.  86th was strictly because it was where it would not potentially be behind a and where it would have the express track all to itself.

That wouldn’t be a problem:

 

 

There wouldn't be no such problem.

With 2 trains running on 20 minute frequencies (a train every 10 minutes at most), one would hardly get in the way of the other.

I'm all for an extension of the to 149-Concourse. Obviously you'll need extra trains (I doubt OPTO will fly over there lol). trains will dump people off at 149, and sit on M track at 138-Concourse and wait to turn back around...completely out of the way of both and even trains.

 

 

But the is not turning where the is running. At 149 Street–Grand Concourse, it continues up the ramp towards 138 Street–Grand Concourse where it switches to the center track and waits until it gets an opportunity to return to the lower level for the trip back to Dyre Avenue. The train would have to dump all the passengers before doing the reversal procedure, but with a half-length train, this should be pretty quick.

[Trainmaster5]

Why not just 149 Street–Grand Concourse? The major options are there: down the west side and down the east side. 86 Street does not offer any additional transfer opportunities besides the . The next major attraction is Grand Central which adds access to the , , , and . But at that point, it would just make sense to make the trip all the way to Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall for a substantial increase in options; the choices would amount to: , , , , , , , , , , , and . That is just a stone throw away from Bowling Green which would add a transfer to the . Beyond that, there are no additional transfer opportunities besides to the in Brooklyn. But again, what is the load from Dyre Avenue anyway? Is it so important that the full array of options must be offered at quadruple/pentuple/sextuple the expense?

 

I think 149 Street–Grand Concourse gives the rider 2 Manhattan options, which is decent enough. Other additions are just luxurious toppings.

From my personal experience the load from Dyre Avenue to East 180th St s/b doesn't fill one car s/b from midnight to 4 am. This is including Friday and Saturday nights. There was actually an extra trip added to the shuttle because there was a time when they ran a 30 minute headway during the 3am to 4am time frame. IMO there's no justification to run the shuttle south of East 180th St. I've worked it as a C/R and a M/M in the midnights and the ridership just doesn't call for that type of extension. Where is this new trip generator located?  Let's get back to the .Carry on.

[Around the Horn]

From my personal experience the load from Dyre Avenue to East 180th St s/b doesn't fill one car s/b from midnight to 4 am. This is including Friday and Saturday nights. There was actually an extra trip added to the shuttle because there was a time when they ran a 30 minute headway during the 3am to 4am time frame. IMO there's no justification to run the shuttle south of East 180th St. I've worked it as a C/R and a M/M in the midnights and the ridership just doesn't call for that type of extension. Where is this new trip generator located?  Let's get back to the .Carry on.

I was waiting for you to chime in!

 

I'd hope that the MTA's next late night improvement is the to Essex Street. No more double transfer, just upstairs from the to the and downstairs from the to the .

[GreatOne2k]

The would help some riders make a connection to the at 149 St GC since the doesn't have good timing with the and one would have to wait up to an additional 20 minutes just to transfer. That discourages late night ridership taking three trains just to get to/from the east side. Late night ridership will be higher since it will include some high ridership Bronx stations like 3 Av 149 St.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The would help some riders make a connection to the at 149 St GC since the doesn't have good timing with the and one would have to wait up to an additional 20 minutes just to transfer. That discourages late night ridership taking three trains just to get to/from the east side. Late night ridership will be higher since it will include some high ridership Bronx stations like 3 Av 149 St.

It isn't just late night ridership that is affected... Weekends too... I don't know how the can get away with constantly knocking out the train so much.

From my personal experience the load from Dyre Avenue to East 180th St s/b doesn't fill one car s/b from midnight to 4 am. This is including Friday and Saturday nights. There was actually an extra trip added to the shuttle because there was a time when they ran a 30 minute headway during the 3am to 4am time frame. IMO there's no justification to run the shuttle south of East 180th St. I've worked it as a C/R and a M/M in the midnights and the ridership just doesn't call for that type of extension. Where is this new trip generator located?  Let's get back to the .Carry on.

Yeah but that's partially because the runs like crap on weekends and outside of rush hour. I mean when I had to tutor near Morris Park a while back, if I missed the BxM10, I would wait another hour rather than deal with the annoying transfers and shuttles.  The is slow and infrequent, and seems to be an afterthought, even during the rush for the .  Sad but true.  That's why it runs so empty up there.

[RailRunRob]

It isn't just late night ridership that is affected... Weekends too... I don't know how the can get away with constantly knocking out the train so much.

 

Yeah but that's partially because the runs like crap on weekends and outside of rush hour. I mean when I had to tutor near Morris Park a while back, if I missed the BxM10, I would wait another hour rather than deal with the annoying transfers and shuttles.  The is slow and infrequent, and seems to be an afterthought, even during the rush for the .  Sad but true.  That's why it runs so empty up there.

What does this have to do with the Midnight - 4am slot TM5 was talking about? Can you elaborate?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What does this have to do with the Midnight - 4am slot TM5 was talking about? Can you elaborate?

Simple.  I think the should run during that time and should be improved overall.  It runs poorly in general and the fact that it is constantly knocked out (especially outside of rush hour) means that people that would likely use it are forced to other alternatives, which in some cases usually means driving. 

[RailRunRob]

Simple.  I think the should run during that time and should be improved overall.  It runs poorly in general and the fact that it is constantly knocked out (especially outside of rush hour) means that people that would likely use it are forced to other alternatives, which in some cases usually means driving. 

 I understand that point maybe they could add more service. What is it a 8-10  Rush Headway? I don't know the ridership for the Dyre vs the WPR or Jerome Line maybe they could get that down to  5-7 mins. But honestly a extra 3 min wait is going to cause me to gas up my car and drive to Manhattan? $55 parking?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 I understand that point maybe they could add more service. What is it a 8-10  Rush Headway? I don't know the ridership for the Dyre vs the WPR or Jerome Line maybe they could get that down to  5-7 mins. But honestly a extra 3 min wait is going to cause me to gas up my car and drive to Manhattan? $55 parking?

During the rush is a whole different thing from weekends and off-peak.   During the rush the is frequent.  However, the has two different branches and also is supposed to run express in the Bronx, which seems to rarely happen when I use it and it CRAWLS from 86th to 125th and then crawls through the Bronx local.  Many so called express trains are turned into local trains or are forced to run via the line.  On weekends IF the is even running at all, the headways are usually every 20 minutes, let alone any service past 180th street.  With so many disruptions on that line, yes outside of the rush, many people DO drive and I don't blame them.  

[RailRunRob]

During the rush is a whole different thing from weekends and off-peak.   During the rush the is frequent.  However, the has two different branches and also is supposed to run express in the Bronx, which seems to rarely happen when I use it and it CRAWLS from 86th to 125th and then crawls through the Bronx local.  Many so called express trains are turned into local trains or are forced to run via the line.  On weekends IF the is even running at all, the headways are usually every 20 minutes, let alone any service past 180th street.  With so many disruptions on that line, yes outside of the rush, many people DO drive and I don't blame them.  

Aren't they upgrading the signaling on Dyre? Maybe that's the issue with weekend service.. Some of these points are infrastructure constraints im sure the master builders circa 1900-1915 banked on extensions and expansion from future generations. you're preaching to choir with that one.. I can't count the about of times I have to take the after the issues with .. City wide issue  Im not moving my car to drive into the city.. that's just me.  But I guess the people in Morris Park, Co-Op and Eastchester have the means. (Shrugs) More power to them.

 

There's no Trains to Brooklyn on weekends that's more then likely what's effecting weekend service...