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RailRunRob

Decision made in (L) closure

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Definitely the right call on the part of the (MTA). Now comes the fun part - figuring out how to provide extra service on the nearby subway (and bus) lines.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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Definitely the right call on the part of the (MTA). Now comes the fun part - figuring out how to provide extra service on the nearby subway (and bus) lines.

Yeah. Don't feel like it would have worked any other way.

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Makes perfect sense, however, I would not be surprised if the Manhattan Borough President takes the (MTA) to court to attempt to force them to keep the (L) running between 1st and 8th Avenues in Manhattan during the shutdown, citing fears of massive gridlock on 14th Street without such (as the MBP is already on record as demanding such as I understand it).  

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While I support the plan, I do NOT support having no (L) train service between 8th Avenue and 1st Avenue.  There must be a way that the (MTA) can have that service, and I see no reason why they can't.  They have almost three years to come up with a viable solution, as I agree with Wallyhorse about there being a possible political backlash (and rightfully so).  The M14 buses will be far too overcrowded, and there will be too much congestion above ground.  I've seen how poorly the M14 can run on numerous occasions last year trying to get to meetings on the Lower East Side and had to opt for taxis instead.  I think the taxi scene will also be a mess, so the need for the subway between that aforementioned corridor becomes that much more important.  And while they're at it, they should see if any other work can be done on some of those stations at the same time.  We need more cohesion with these construction projects.  

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To Wally and VG8, there is no place to store L trains in Manhattan, and power will be cut off anyway, so any sort of shuttle service on the Manhattan side of the (L) is dead on arrival. It's impossible.

 

 

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Bingo!! Plus signaling config's could be an issue so many ancillary systems and parts beside trains. VG8 most basic question what's your plan what are we missing?

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To Wally and VG8, there is no place to store L trains in Manhattan, and power will be cut off anyway, so any sort of shuttle service on the Manhattan side of the (L) is dead on arrival. It's impossible.

 

 

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That seems like a very poor thought out plan then... Nothing is happening between those stations and yet they have NO way of running trains there.... 

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That seems like a very poor thought out plan then... Nothing is happening between those stations and yet they have NO way of running trains there.... 

Both I and ATH gave you the reasons why you can't run service. Find away around the issue we presented. How do you run service with no links to the mainline? Again what's your plan?

Edited by RailRunRob

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Theres also no way to get manhattan trains to a yard to be inspected and repaired. The MTA went over that detail. From the look of the map they provided of alternate routed, its looks like theyll be implementing SBS on 23rd and 14th streets with both going to a ferry terminal around 20th street. The M14 has been used as L train shuttles before. Its nothing new. They are adding SBS to help.

 

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Both I and ATH gave you the reasons why you can't run service. Find away around the issue we presented. How do you run service with no links to the mainline? Again what's your plan?

I'm not the one shutting down the damn tunnel.  I think the (MTA) should present a feasible plan, which they haven't done up to this point. You said they're the experts remember? <_<   

 

 

Theres also no way to get manhattan trains to a yard to be inspected and repaired. The MTA went over that detail. From the look of the map they provided of alternate routed, its looks like theyll be implementing SBS on 23rd and 14th streets with both going to a ferry terminal around 20th street. The M14 has been used as L train shuttles before. Its nothing new. They are adding SBS to help.

 

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That's not going to be enough with all of the congestion on 23rd and 14th... Please... If anything they would need to make 14th and 23rd street bus only streets for it to be tolerable.  I also want to know if they went over pumping up trains on the other lines and what the frequencies would look like.  Seems like something they could've already added in this plan...

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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I'm not the one shutting down the damn tunnel.  I think the (MTA) should present a feasible plan, which they haven't done up to this point. You said they're the experts remember? <_<   

 

 

That's not going to be enough with all of the congestion on 23rd and 14th... Please... If anything they would need to make 14th and 23rd street bus only streets for it to be tolerable.  I also want to know if they went over pumping up trains on the other lines and what the frequencies would look like.  Seems like something they could've already added in this plan...

feasible |ˈfēzəb(ə)l|

adjective

possible to do easily or conveniently: it is not feasible to put most finds from excavations on public display.

informal likely; probable: the most feasible explanation.

 

Ahh..it's as feasible as it's going to get buddy. I don't know another way to break down the laws of Science, Logistics, and Logic... I think you like to complain that's the law I think is applicable here.  

Edited by RailRunRob
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I'm not the one shutting down the damn tunnel.  I think the (MTA) should present a feasible plan, which they haven't done up to this point. You said they're the experts remember? <_<   

 

 

That's not going to be enough with all of the congestion on 23rd and 14th... Please... If anything they would need to make 14th and 23rd street bus only streets for it to be tolerable.  I also want to know if they went over pumping up trains on the other lines and what the frequencies would look like.  Seems like something they could've already added in this plan...

How many riders use the (L) crosstown? I was under the impression is was mostly thru ridership to Brooklyn? Are you telling it's more then SBS routes can handle?

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I'm not the one shutting down the damn tunnel. I think the (MTA) should present a feasible plan, which they haven't done up to this point. You said they're the experts remember? <_<

 

 

That's not going to be enough with all of the congestion on 23rd and 14th... Please... If anything they would need to make 14th and 23rd street bus only streets for it to be tolerable. I also want to know if they went over pumping up trains on the other lines and what the frequencies would look like. Seems like something they could've already added in this plan...

From the map they provided, the M23 is going full sbs while the M14 is going to have an SBS variant added to serve the ferry around 20th st. Neither is honestly going to see the whole bulk of pre-closure L riders since one can assume everyday riders will have an alternate route planned (transferring to the A, G, J, etc). Why are so many acting across social media and forums acting like its the end of the world? Some riders may even find a better route to where they are going?

 

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I can't say I'm surprised by the move. Most riders and MTA officials were leaning towards the 18-month approach from the start. It allows for the work to be done without train service impeding on the progress. Which is part of the reason why there cannot be any service between 1 Avenue and 8 Avenue. The other, more pressing reason why there can't be any service under the full-closure option is there is absolutely no way to maintain the cars needed for service. The Canarsie line has only one track connection to the rest of the system and that's at Broadway Junction. With both East River tunnels closed, the cars will have no way to get to and from the Manhattan side to the Brooklyn side. And no, they cannot build a small maintenance facility somewhere along the Manhattan segment of the line. There's no room.

 

There's no way to have it both ways. You cannot have a shortened time-span for the closure while retaining service on the western portion. It's either 18-months with no service west of Bedford Av or three years with extremely limited service between 8 Avenue and Bedford Av. In my opinion, the MTA chose wisely.

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feasible |ˈfēzəb(ə)l|

adjective

possible to do easily or conveniently: it is not feasible to put most finds from excavations on public display.

informal likely; probable: the most feasible explanation.

 

Ahh..it's as feasible as it's going to get buddy. I don't know another way to break down the laws of Science, Logistics, and Logic... I think you like to complain that's the law I think is applicable here.  

 

 

How many riders use the (L) crosstown? I was under the impression is was mostly thru ridership to Brooklyn? Are you telling it's more then SBS routes can handle?

Don't start with this nonsense.  You can always understand everyone else's comments but mine. 

 

From the map they provided, the M23 is going full sbs while the M14 is going to have an SBS variant added to serve the ferry around 20th st. Neither is honestly going to see the whole bulk of pre-closure L riders since one can assume everyday riders will have an alternate route planned (transferring to the A, G, J, etc). Why are so many acting across social media and forums acting like its the end of the world? Some riders may even find a better route to where they are going?

 

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Well I would like to hope that it will work out smoothly, but quite frankly there's a distrust of the (MTA) that still permeates.  Perhaps if they had a history of being efficient, there would be less skepticism.  As it stands now they even admit that their performance isn't that great across the board in terms of on-time performance, etc., so it remains to be seen how the alternatives are going to handle those crowds from the (L) when that line was already bursting at the seams. Granted, a lot of that stems from Williamsburg but still.  

 

I can't say I'm surprised by the move. Most riders and MTA officials were leaning towards the 18-month approach from the start. It allows for the work to be done without train service impeding on the progress. Which is part of the reason why there cannot be any service between 1 Avenue and 8 Avenue. The other, more pressing reason why there can't be any service under the full-closure option is there is absolutely no way to maintain the cars needed for service. The Canarsie line has only one track connection to the rest of the system and that's at Broadway Junction. With both East River tunnels closed, the cars will have no way to get to and from the Manhattan side to the Brooklyn side. And no, they cannot build a small maintenance facility somewhere along the Manhattan segment of the line. There's no room.

 

There's no way to have it both ways. You cannot have a shortened time-span for the closure while retaining service on the western portion. It's either 18-months with no service west of Bedford Av or three years with extremely limited service between 8 Avenue and Bedford Av. In my opinion, the MTA chose wisely.

I'll wait and hold my comments until I see the alternatives that they provide.

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Don't start with this nonsense. You can always understand everyone else's comments but mine.

 

Well I would like to hope that it will work out smoothly, but quite frankly there's a distrust of the (MTA) that still permeates. Perhaps if they had a history of being efficient, there would be less skepticism. As it stands now they even admit that their performance isn't that great across the board in terms of on-time performance, etc., so it remains to be seen how the alternatives are going to handle those crowds from the (L) when that line was already bursting at the seams. Granted, a lot of that stems from Williamsburg but still.

 

I'll wait and hold my comments until I see the alternatives that they provide.

http://web.mta.info/sandy/MTA%20Canarsie%20Tunnel%20Service%20Mitigation%20Map.pdf

 

This is the map they provided. All of the other info has been posted on the MTA website.

 

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Don't start with this nonsense.  You can always understand everyone else's comments but mine. 

 

Well I would like to hope that it will work out smoothly, but quite frankly there's a distrust of the (MTA) that still permeates.  Perhaps if they had a history of being efficient, there would be less skepticism.  As it stands now they even admit that their performance isn't that great across the board in terms of on-time performance, etc., so it remains to be seen how the alternatives are going to handle those crowds from the (L) when that line was already bursting at the seams. Granted, a lot of that stems from Williamsburg but still.  

 

I'll wait and hold my comments until I see the alternatives that they provide.

True! B-)  I'm trying at least. I'm asking the questions. I'd love to hear an outside perspective on our back and forths am I picking on VG?

I feel like you never give direct answers. Other's seem to at least from my prospective.  :huh: ?

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It's unfortunately going to a trial-and-error situation where we won't know what alternatives will be the most popular until the transfers are used in practice. The 18 month closure is just necessary.

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http://web.mta.info/sandy/MTA%20Canarsie%20Tunnel%20Service%20Mitigation%20Map.pdf

 

This is the map they provided. All of the other info has been posted on the MTA website.

 

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I  think the MTA could do better with PR and education with this project.A dedicated site something very visual with FAQ's and detailed breakdowns of why they choose do go the route they did. I think if they educated the public more about transit infrastructure what it means to the city overall and what the gains what the gain's being after the project overall. Public opinion might be a little better. I don't think people really understand how important this infrastructure is Take this inconvenience and compare it a with a full shutdown of the Lexington Avenue. 200K a day vs 1.2 Million I don't think people really know how much the system carries they don't really have a concept of this. They have to go on a PR Blitz with this one. Web/Radio/TV this might be in play my two cents at least.

Edited by RailRunRob

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Isnt that what they did on their site?

 

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Nope. It's information within an existing archaic and hard to navigate site. No Design or UX principles. They need a Ltrain.nyc just information and updates on the closure and project.

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The full closure is the more efficient solution, since the extra train cars can be used for the other lines. Morevoer, a lot of upgrades can be implemented simultaneously: additional exits at 1st and Bedford Aves to improve bottlenecks there, plus an upgrade of the power system to allow for up to 6 tph more during rush hour (30 percent capacity increase).

 

How would I redirect riders during the shutdown:

  1. Run the maximum amount of (M) service. 24/7 Manhattan service, terminate at 57 Av during non-weekdays.
  2. 24/7 bus bridge from Delancey / Essex to Williamsburg (Bedford Ave).
  3. Lengthen the (G) to accommodate transfers at Metropolitan - Lorimer. The (7) should be able to handle the transfers at Court Sq.
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