MTA looking into a subway line to Marine Park

[TeeLow]

An elevated line down Flatbush (from the Junction) or down Utica Ave from Eastern Pkwy? Someone forgot to take their meds. From Nostrand Ave: where would the line emerge from underground? How much of Flatbush would have to be ripped up to create a hole wide enough for the two tracks? The ROW would certainly have to be on the south side of Flatbush. Who wants all that overhead noise every 3-10 mins during the weekdays? (click clack; click clack; CLICK CLACK!!) Eminent domain lawsuits would delay the project for YEARS. Then there's the actual construction itself; installation of support columns, crossbeams, stair cases, substations, etc. You think traveling N/S on Flatbush is a trip now...sheesh!

 

From Utica Ave: First of all it's impractical. With the existing setup of upper and lower plats, connecting the turnouts would be problematical. Viewing Peter Dougherty's layout (2013 Edition) of the switching and existing lines, there's not enough distance to create the tunnels needed to connect the extension to the existing line, since the turnout(s) would need to be e/o the cross switch past the Utica station (unless you'd punch out immediately after the station) and then diving down immediately in an attempt to avoid the center relay and lower plat tracks, not to mention connecting the lower plat tracks to the...you get the idea.

 

Basically the same arguments. Where would the underground emerge? How big a hole? Construction, noise, congestion, etc, etc! If it's gonna be done, do it the Civil War way: UNDERGROUND! An elevated might be nostalgic, but to me it's an unsightly blot on the existing landscape.

 

Terminating at Bergen Beach? I agree with GB8. It's not needed nor wanted. Imagine turning your elevated east on Ave U just to go one stop. Even going underground is a waste of money. Ave U/Kings Plaza is good enough.

[Around the Horn]

Hold it right there folks. Since when does a Utica Avenue subway "punch through Marine Park" ?

[Union Tpke]

An elevated line down Flatbush (from the Junction) or down Utica Ave from Eastern Pkwy? Someone forgot to take their meds. From Nostrand Ave: where would the line emerge from underground? How much of Flatbush would have to be ripped up to create a hole wide enough for the two tracks? The ROW would certainly have to be on the south side of Flatbush. Who wants all that overhead noise every 3-10 mins during the weekdays? (click clack; click clack; CLICK CLACK!!) Eminent domain lawsuits would delay the project for YEARS. Then there's the actual construction itself; installation of support columns, crossbeams, stair cases, substations, etc. You think traveling N/S on Flatbush is a trip now...sheesh!

 

From Utica Ave: First of all it's impractical. With the existing setup of upper and lower plats, connecting the turnouts would be problematical. Viewing Peter Dougherty's layout (2013 Edition) of the switching and existing lines, there's not enough distance to create the tunnels needed to connect the extension to the existing line, since the turnout(s) would need to be e/o the cross switch past the Utica station (unless you'd punch out immediately after the station) and then diving down immediately in an attempt to avoid the center relay and lower plat tracks, not to mention connecting the lower plat tracks to the...you get the idea.

 

Basically the same arguments. Where would the underground emerge? How big a hole? Construction, noise, congestion, etc, etc! If it's gonna be done, do it the Civil War way: UNDERGROUND! An elevated might be nostalgic, but to me it's an unsightly blot on the existing landscape.

 

Terminating at Bergen Beach? I agree with GB8. It's not needed nor wanted. Imagine turning your elevated east on Ave U just to go one stop. Even going underground is a waste of money. Ave U/Kings Plaza is good enough.

 

There are bellmouths for a Utica Avenue Line.

 

The IRT Nostrand Avenue Line should be extended via Nostrand Avenue to Avenue W.

A Utica Avenue Line should first be built as a branch of the IRT Eastern Parkway Line to Avenue U.

Then, a branch from the Second Avenue subway via East 8th Street, Grand Street, Bushwick Avenue, Stuyvesant Street, and Utica Avenue to Eastern Parkway should be built. The line south of that point should have the platforms shaved back.

[TeeLow]

There are bellmouths for a Utica Avenue Line.

 

The IRT Nostrand Avenue Line should be extended via Nostrand Avenue to Avenue W.

A Utica Avenue Line should first be built as a branch of the IRT Eastern Parkway Line to Avenue U.

Then, a branch from the Second Avenue subway via East 8th Street, Grand Street, Bushwick Avenue, Stuyvesant Street, and Utica Avenue to Eastern Parkway should be built. The line south of that point should have the platforms shaved back.

Existing bellmouths? Wow. Didn't know that. Trying to picture them in my head. Still, if the plan is to bring a subway to Ave U, IMO it would be easier to do it from Nostrand/Flatbush though going south on Utica from the Pkwy would be more beneficial all around. Your Phase 5 vision is something well beyond the horizon. I doubt it would be given much (if any) consideration by MTA.

[RailRunRob]

An elevated line down Flatbush (from the Junction) or down Utica Ave from Eastern Pkwy? Someone forgot to take their meds. From Nostrand Ave: where would the line emerge from underground? How much of Flatbush would have to be ripped up to create a hole wide enough for the two tracks? The ROW would certainly have to be on the south side of Flatbush. Who wants all that overhead noise every 3-10 mins during the weekdays? (click clack; click clack; CLICK CLACK!!) Eminent domain lawsuits would delay the project for YEARS. Then there's the actual construction itself; installation of support columns, crossbeams, stair cases, substations, etc. You think traveling N/S on Flatbush is a trip now...sheesh!

 

From Utica Ave: First of all it's impractical. With the existing setup of upper and lower plats, connecting the turnouts would be problematical. Viewing Peter Dougherty's layout (2013 Edition) of the switching and existing lines, there's not enough distance to create the tunnels needed to connect the extension to the existing line, since the turnout(s) would need to be e/o the cross switch past the Utica station (unless you'd punch out immediately after the station) and then diving down immediately in an attempt to avoid the center relay and lower plat tracks, not to mention connecting the lower plat tracks to the...you get the idea.

 

Basically the same arguments. Where would the underground emerge? How big a hole? Construction, noise, congestion, etc, etc! If it's gonna be done, do it the Civil War way: UNDERGROUND! An elevated might be nostalgic, but to me it's an unsightly blot on the existing landscape.

 

Terminating at Bergen Beach? I agree with GB8. It's not needed nor wanted. Imagine turning your elevated east on Ave U just to go one stop. Even going underground is a waste of money. Ave U/Kings Plaza is good enough.

I agree that the Nostrand route is a bit more difficult crossing under the LIRR Bay Ridge line and would more the likely be a completely underground route. Now the Utica plan is doable as Union Tpk mentioned the provisions are already there with bell mouths in place. As for tunnel portals and transitioning to an elevated structure the Kings Highway area offers more than enough room. As I said elevated structures are a lot different than they were in a 20th-century. And are a lot quieter and less obstructive to the surrounding area.

 

 

 

 

Hold it right there folks. Since when does a Utica Avenue subway "punch through Marine Park" ?

And there's that!

[trainfan22]

I'd love for this be an Elevated structure rather than underground, I'm curious to see how brand new Outdoor subway NY line would look like... Concrete structure with Island Platforms probably.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

An elevated line down Flatbush (from the Junction) or down Utica Ave from Eastern Pkwy? Someone forgot to take their meds. From Nostrand Ave: where would the line emerge from underground? How much of Flatbush would have to be ripped up to create a hole wide enough for the two tracks? The ROW would certainly have to be on the south side of Flatbush. Who wants all that overhead noise every 3-10 mins during the weekdays? (click clack; click clack; CLICK CLACK!!) Eminent domain lawsuits would delay the project for YEARS. Then there's the actual construction itself; installation of support columns, crossbeams, stair cases, substations, etc. You think traveling N/S on Flatbush is a trip now...sheesh!

 

From Utica Ave: First of all it's impractical. With the existing setup of upper and lower plats, connecting the turnouts would be problematical. Viewing Peter Dougherty's layout (2013 Edition) of the switching and existing lines, there's not enough distance to create the tunnels needed to connect the extension to the existing line, since the turnout(s) would need to be e/o the cross switch past the Utica station (unless you'd punch out immediately after the station) and then diving down immediately in an attempt to avoid the center relay and lower plat tracks, not to mention connecting the lower plat tracks to the...you get the idea.

 

Basically the same arguments. Where would the underground emerge? How big a hole? Construction, noise, congestion, etc, etc! If it's gonna be done, do it the Civil War way: UNDERGROUND! An elevated might be nostalgic, but to me it's an unsightly blot on the existing landscape.

 

Terminating at Bergen Beach? I agree with GVB8. It's not needed nor wanted. Imagine turning your elevated east on Ave U just to go one stop. Even going underground is a waste of money. Ave U/Kings Plaza is good enough.

Yeah White Plains Road in the Bronx comes to mind.  The street under the elevated tracks is so damn narrow that it makes commuting a real PITA not to mention things constantly falling from above that may hit you (water and other odd objects). It would likely have to be built above ground given that a lot of South Brooklyn (I believe) was built on landfill, no?  Bergen Beach is an example for sure.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Existing bellmouths? Wow. Didn't know that. Trying to picture them in my head.

Bellmouths exist on the tracks (local tracks), east of the Utica Av station. If any is to use Utica Av, the Rogers Junction has to be completely rebuilt and the must stop at Nastrand and Kingston Avs. If the goes there, the only issue is that the MTA may have to build a new yard, presumably in Kings Plaza while the takes New Lots Av. A lot to think about when building the Utica Line.

[TeeLow]

Would you put an elevated on Grand Concourse? On Queens Blvd past Roosevelt Ave or Woodhaven/Crossbay? On Ocean Pkwy? Kings Hwy is a signature road in Brooklyn before it narrows at Ocean Ave. It doesn't need an elevated structure, no matter how grand the design. The line needs to be underground, if it's ever built at all. JMHO

I agree that the Nostrand route is a bit more difficult crossing under the LIRR Bay Ridge line and would more the likely be a completely underground route. Now the Utica plan is doable as Union Tpk mentioned the provisions are already there with bell mouths in place. As for tunnel portals and transitioning to an elevated structure the Kings Highway area offers more than enough room. As I said elevated structures are a lot different than they were in a 20th-century. And are a lot quieter and less obstructive to the surrounding area.

 

 

 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Would you put an elevated on Grand Concourse? On Queens Blvd past Roosevelt Ave or Woodhaven/Crossbay? On Ocean Pkwy? Kings Hwy is a signature road in Brooklyn before it narrows at Ocean Ave. It doesn't need an elevated structure, no matter how grand the design. The line needs to be underground, if it's ever built at all. JMHO

Agreed... There are enough subway stations above ground that are hideous as it is.  Makes everything below it unattractive, dark and filthy.  I am automatically turned off from these sorts of places, and generally try to avoid shopping around them.  That includes the old neighborhoods in South Brooklyn that I grew up in.  Just going by how some neighborhoods like Mill Basin and Bergen Beach protested in the past to keep development that they felt would destroy their upper middle class neighborhoods out, I would see this as being heavily protested as well.  Given the wealth of both neighborhoods, especially Mill Basin with its multi-million dollar homes along the water, I could see both communities making a huge stink about any subway coming near their neighborhoods.  

[TeeLow]

Yeah White Plains Road in the Bronx comes to mind.  The street under the elevated tracks is so damn narrow that it makes commuting a real PITA not to mention things constantly falling from above that may hit you (water and other odd objects). It would likely have to be built above ground given that a lot of South Brooklyn (I believe) was built on landfill, no?  Bergen Beach is an example for sure.

 You might be right. Here's some info about South Brooklyn

 

Once part of the town of Nieuw Amersfoort, or Flatlands, Mill Island -- now also called Mill Basin -- and its neighbor to the north, Old Mill Basin, remained largely a patchwork of islands and wetlands right into this century. Here and there, on the firmer ground of Mill Island, stood squatters' huts, occasional factories and Jan Schenck's farmhouse. (In 1952 the house was dismantled and put into storage.)

 

Avenue U, once a stream, divides the mainly Irish and Italian community of Old Mill Basin, where house prices range from $130,000 to $250,000, from the suburban-like peninsula to the south, known variously as Mill Basin, Mill Island or -- most familiarly -- the Basin, which juts into the eponymous inlet.

 

If the line is ever built I'm sure MTA will firm up the soft 'underbelly' so that it can be built underground.

 

Agreed... There are enough subway stations above ground that are hideous as it is.  Makes everything below it unattractive, dark and filthy.  I am automatically turned off from these sorts of places, and generally try to avoid shopping around them.  That includes the old neighborhoods in South Brooklyn that I grew up in.  Just going by how some neighborhoods like Mill Basin and Bergen Beach protested in the past to keep development that they felt would destroy their upper middle class neighborhoods out, I would see this as being heavily protested as well.  Given the wealth of both neighborhoods, especially Mill Basin with its multi-million dollar homes along the water, I could see both communities making a huge stink about any subway coming near their neighborhoods.  

Couldn't agree more.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Really? And what makes you the expert? For starters I know people who live in the area and they would not want a subway, and they live there because there isn't one.  And I'm sorry to tell you this but all of South Brooklyn is certainly not the same.  

Some people like claiming to be the "Official Spokesperson for All Residents" of neighborhoods that they don't live in. There is at least one other on this board.

[RailRunRob]

Agreed... There are enough subway stations above ground that are hideous as it is.  Makes everything below it unattractive, dark and filthy.  I am automatically turned off from these sorts of places, and generally try to avoid shopping around them.  That includes the old neighborhoods in South Brooklyn that I grew up in.  Just going by how some neighborhoods like Mill Basin and Bergen Beach protested in the past to keep development that they felt would destroy their upper middle class neighborhoods out, I would see this as being heavily protested as well.  Given the wealth of both neighborhoods, especially Mill Basin with its multi-million dollar homes along the water, I could see both communities making a huge stink about any subway coming near their neighborhoods.  

 

Would you put an elevated on Grand Concourse? On Queens Blvd past Roosevelt Ave or Woodhaven/Crossbay? On Ocean Pkwy? Kings Hwy is a signature road in Brooklyn before it narrows at Ocean Ave. It doesn't need an elevated structure, no matter how grand the design. The line needs to be underground, if it's ever built at all. JMHO

Confused? Wouldn't the line be running on Utica? The Kings Hwy area offers room for a tunnel Portal for the line Who said anything about a train on Kings Hwy?.. whether the is a full underground route isn't up to us fully. It's a little thing call geology involved.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

I never said I was. You must know older people. You may have only talked to older people about the subject. But guess what? They are not the future. I believe it is the younger generations who need the say, because they will be there long after the people you claim don't want the subway are gone.

 

Everybody who lives in a neighborhood should get to express an opinion. Or are you suggesting that people above a specific age should be declared legally irrelevant?

[LTA1992]

Everybody who lives in a neighborhood should get to express an opinion. Or are you suggesting that people above a specific age should be declared legally irrelevant?

I'm saying more priority should be given to the younger generations in deciding if a route should go somewhere. Because as I've already stated, they will be the ones that will need to live with the results. Much longer than those who've decided long ago that a new transit line does not need to serve them. That same demographic is also more likely to show up at the hearings and voice their opinions.

 

Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk

[RailRunRob]

Everybody who lives in a neighborhood should get to express an opinion. Or are you suggesting that people above a specific age should be declared legally irrelevant?

I took it as an indication on the divide between Baby Boomers and Millennials on their views on Transit. Ultimately you can't deny the fact millennials are going to win out and so does a more transit-oriented City. No feelings included!

[TeeLow]

Confused? Wouldn't the line be running on Utica? The Kings Hwy area offers room for a tunnel Portal for the line Who said anything about a train on Kings Hwy?.. whether the is a full underground route isn't up to us fully. It's a little thing call geology involved.

Where in that 'area' would you punch through? Rogers Ave? Buffalo Ave? How would you double back to Utica Ave? Diagonally? The entire area is totally residential except for a strip along E. 98th St where the New Lots line emerges and by Lincoln Terrace Park and that's too far east. No matter where the underground emerges in that area it would impact way more than an handful of residents. I gotta say underground is the best way.

[Union Tpke]

A subway can not be built that far south! It has to be elevated because of the high water table. I would also love it to be elevated to show how new elevated lines can be cheaper, more practical, and not as loud.

http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e2-1673-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

Screen Shot 2016-08-09 at 5.22.39 PM by spicker613, on Flickr

[RailRunRob]

Where in that 'area' would you punch through? Rogers Ave? Buffalo Ave? How would you double back to Utica Ave? Diagonally? The entire area is totally residential except for a strip along E. 98th St where the New Lots line emerges and by Lincoln Terrace Park and that's too far east. No matter where the underground emerges in that area it would impact way more than an handful of residents. I gotta say underground is the best way.

I see the confusion sorry if I didn't clarify. I'm saying the line would be underground until the Kings Highway area that's where you'd punch the hole thus the image I posted.

 

Crown Hts -Utica

Empire Blvd

Church Ave

Clarendon Ave?

----------------- (Tunnel Portal)

Kings Hway

Flatlands

Ave N

A subway can not be built that far south! It has to be elevated because of the high water table. I would also love it to be elevated to show how new elevated lines can be cheaper, more practical, and not as loud.

http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e2-1673-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

Screen Shot 2016-08-09 at 5.22.39 PM by spicker613, on Flickr

So a portal around Kings Hwy could play out.

[TeeLow]

I see the confusion sorry if I didn't clarify. I'm saying the line would be underground until the Kings Highway area that's where you'd punch the hole thus the image I posted.

 

Crown Hts -Utica

Empire Blvd

Church Ave

Clarendon Ave?

----------------- (Tunnel Portal)

Kings Hway

Flatlands

Ave N

So a portal around Kings Hwy could play out.

OK, I understand now. Forgive my tendency to be dense. That part of Utica is mostly commercial-one level structures so the impact would be lessened. If it could be fully emerged before Ave D, Clarendon Rd would be a decent fit. It still would dislocate some residents on E. 49th or E. 51st St depending on which side of Utica the portal is located.

 

Just curious: why would you want an elevated structure?

 

Edit: Never mind. I just saw Union Tpke's map. Case closed I guess.

[Around the Horn]

OK, I understand now. Forgive my tendency to be dense. That part of Utica is mostly commercial-one level structures so the impact would be lessened. If it could be fully emerged before Ave D, Clarendon Rd would be a decent fit. It still would dislocate some residents on E. 49th or E. 51st St depending on which side of Utica the portal is located.

 

Just curious: why would you want an elevated structure?

The water table makes subway construction risky

[TeeLow]

The water table makes subway construction risky

 Agreed. It probably could be done but the added expense probably wouldn't justify the venture.

[LTA1992]

I took it as an indication on the divide between Baby Boomers and Millennials on their views on Transit. Ultimately you can't deny the fact millennials are going to win out and so does a more transit-oriented City. No feelings included!

Exactimundo. No feelings, just facts.

 

Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm saying more priority should be given to the younger generations in deciding if a route should go somewhere. Because as I've already stated, they will be the ones that will need to live with the results. Much longer than those who've decided long ago that a new transit line does not need to serve them. That same demographic is also more likely to show up at the hearings and voice their opinions.

 

Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk

That's an absolutely ridiculous assumption to make because some neighborhoods have historically been areas where the elderly settle (my neighborhood is an example of that), so you will always have a high percentage of elderly people living there as it is treated as a retirement/bedroom community.  

[CenSin]

Really? And what makes you the expert? For starters I know people who live in the area and they would not want a subway, and they live there because there isn't one.  And I'm sorry to tell you this but all of South Brooklyn is certainly not the same.  Manhattan Beach is not the same as Coney Island for example, not by a long shot.  Same thing with Marine Park... It's a quiet, charming community where most folks drive or use the B2 bus.  A big part of that charm stems from not having a subway.  I grew up in South Brooklyn so I know what I'm talking about, and still go back there regularly.  Each neighborhood is distinct for one reason or another.  South Brooklyn is certainly like the northern parts of Brooklyn that's for sure.  The fact that a lot of South Brooklyn doesn't have subway lines is what makes it feel less urban and more suburban.  No it is not suburban like the suburbs, but it has a sleepier feel for sure.   Dyker Heights, Mill Basin, Bergen Beach, Midwood... All areas that certainly feel much more suburban than urban by a long shot.  

 

And I'm sure some would want a subway there, but to assume that the majority would is a big mistake.

I’m going to toss my friend’s comment into the ring: she lives in the Sheepshead Bay area around Nostrand Avenue; a subway alternative to the and would be a blessing since they are so far away. Of course, where she lives, the and would still be closer even after the and are extended to Flatbush Avenue and Avenue U.